1. #40701
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Standard contradiction of demands.

    >Why can't they just make something that's fun?
    >Why should I do it if something else is faster and easier?

    The main difficulty with MMO design is the player mentality of maximized efficiency while demanding fun that the players honestly don't give the least shit about. All they want is the fastest, easiest, most immediate gratification path.
    Speaking strictly personally - I don't subscribe to this, but I am a singular player. For instance, people I knew ground Maw of Souls because it was easy fast AP in Legion. I would have quit the game had I done that. I'd much rather run other dungeons as long as I'm still getting a good reward, which I was. I also didn't do the thing where people spammed low keys for 3 chests rather than pushing keys. I'd much rather spend my time doing a dungeon that wasn't trivial to me, but again I am a singular player.

    This isn't WoW where the entire expansion and everything that was done with it is 100% obsolete, irrelevant, and thrown in the garbage the day of a new expansion. It's one of the things I've always felt set FFXIV apart; the entirety of the game being kept in mind, returned to, revisited, and kept semi-relevant, even if it's a bit of a niche relevancy in this case.
    Yeah it's FF14 where an entire patch is 100% obsolete and irrelevant and at a staggered release to boot

    Snark aside - I'm not sure how you can even say that as if FF14 really does it any better. Other than being forced to do the full MSQ to reach current endgame I really don't see any difference between either game. It's not like I'm doing old raids/primals because they're relevant. I'm not running around in HW's areas doing FATEs on my 70s, or at all. I'm not running old dungeons for fun. It's quite literally identical to WoW...

  2. #40702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Snark aside - I'm not sure how you can even say that as if FF14 really does it any better. Other than being forced to do the full MSQ to reach current endgame I really don't see any difference between either game. It's not like I'm doing old raids/primals because they're relevant. I'm not running around in HW's areas doing FATEs on my 70s, or at all. I'm not running old dungeons for fun. It's quite literally identical to WoW...
    I think the point is the world is much more transversal between expansions.
    It's pretty uncommon in WoW to have to do any quest in a previous zone when an expansion is released (except capitals obv). Allied Race and Artifact quests did that and it was nice, however Legion is really the first time it happened.
    Now in FF, current content often tie in old areas, NPCs, etc. One example of that would be the refugee from Dalmasca you have to meet in Eastern La Noscea when unlocking Ridorana. Most of the old crafting items are still used (thanks Housing!).
    The whole Eureka area is a throwback to the end of 2.3 (when the Isle of Val was seemingly obliterated by an Ultima-like spell). Most Job/class quests still have you go through Idylshire for it, or the RDM quest, even though it's old content.

    In short, they still build upon what they created before, unlike WoW where the expansion content is self-contained. You could almost never leave the broken isle/argus and there would barely be any difference.

  3. #40703
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    My issue is more that it's in the exact same content niche as POTD. It's not something that stands as being it's own thing. With that out of the way, it's pretty obvious that players are going to flock to whichever one gives the best rewards for the least amount of effort.

    If it was something similar but had it's own unique take on the formula then it's content that could be fun on it's own merits. Right now, it's higher level POTD. Which is a shame, it could have been something else entirely. Maybe make it a boss rush Deep Dungeon? Fight 9 bosses until you reach the super boss at the end. Or perhaps have fewer floors, but each one is a randomised puzzle you'd need to solve? There's lots of ways they could have kept the same Deep Dungeon design while also offering something that's not a direct reskin of POTD.

    In an ideal world, you'd want POTD and HoH to be something completely incomparable. Like say Dungeons and Eureka - They both offer content to different groups of players looking for different experiences. Right now, POTD and HoH both cater to the same audience looking for the same experience which is just going to split the playerbase between the two based on whichever one is fastest at any given time.
    Yea it's unfortunate Heaven on High continues the Stormblood thing of 'not innovating whatsoever and just changing the paint a bit'.

  4. #40704
    Well, fun is hard to pin down, especially when it requires other players.

    Personally, I like doing FATEs when levelling. I find it fun and relaxing to wander around a zone with a large group of people doing slightly different activities every 5-10 minutes. However, ever since Palace of the Dead came out, levelling via FATEs is completely non-viable. Everyone is in PotD. And if SE made FATEs more efficient than PotD, then it would be a lot harder to level via PotD if you preferred that.

    You can have multiple single-player activities which lead to the same goal. I'm not so sure you can have multiple multi-player activities (without capping rewards) that lead to the same goal.

  5. #40705
    Completed HoH 1-30, pretty easy, last boss isn't very tough, easier than Edda was. Some interesting lore bits. I imagine I'll use it to cap Tomestones in 4.4 unless Eureka remains faster and isn't so onerous to do. You'll need a total of 100 Aether Arm and Armor (10 Grips) to get each weapon. Fuuuck that. I'll wait until 5.0 and buy the last Tomestone weapon for Poetics for everyone that doesn't get a Relic.

  6. #40706
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    This is the best and greatest NPC in the world.

  7. #40707
    I forgot that the patch was today. I mixed up the date with the upcoming Live Letter and somehow convinced myself that it was set for the middle of the month.

    Heaven-on-High is pretty neat. It's about what I expected, really - it's basically a higher level version of POTD but with different aesthetics and a few tweaks. It'll serve its purpose well to help people catch up on leveling alternate DoW/DoM jobs as well as providing something for the 'midcore' players to tackle in regards to the higher floors.

  8. #40708
    Aaaand HoH got broke. Geez, for such a big team they sure don't test shit very well. Too busy counting all their Mogstation money, I guess.

  9. #40709
    At least it wasn't every instance server that went down.

    I just decided to chip away at some Seal Rock. I still need to get some jobs to 61 to level them through HoH anyway.

  10. #40710
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    And it has been like this since day 1 in MMOs, so we can't go blaming the players, either.
    Simplest explanation?
    There is no other way than providing "work" in order to give the player a feeling of having a persistent world in which he always has sth. to do.
    Fun content is usually content we do once or twice, because endless repetition != fun for most people.

  11. #40711
    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    Aaaand HoH got broke. Geez, for such a big team they sure don't test shit very well. Too busy counting all their Mogstation money, I guess.
    Perfect example of why you have PTR's. Or do basic shit like having QA zone out of the instance as each job.

  12. #40712
    Quote Originally Posted by leviathonlx View Post
    Perfect example of why you have PTR's. Or do basic shit like having QA zone out of the instance as each job.
    PTR doesn't guarantee a bug free patch. WoW is proof of that. And Rift.

    Both have PTRs. Both have had the odd bug with their patches.

    Look at the Warrior bug with Legion where jumping from Skyhold could crash the game and put you in Azsuna for example.

    I can't think of a single MMO that's never had the odd issue/bug or had to hotfix to fix things.
    Last edited by Eleccybubb; 2018-07-04 at 06:15 PM.

  13. #40713
    As someone who enjoyed POTD, I have to say, HoH is a welcome improvement. The Aether is very easy to build up, SE got the message on speeding for XP and made it easy to clear the deepest 'story floor', which guarantees Aether each clear, as well as a potsherd and gives the best XP and Tome reward. You can spam it over and over with little difficulty. The new magicites are, IMO, much better than the Manticore pom was, and the new stone and invisibility poms are fun to play with too.

  14. #40714
    Bloodsail Admiral Dugna's Avatar
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    using a magicite to clear a floor that is one of those massive open ones feels soo good, just one click and bam tons of pots

  15. #40715
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    PTR doesn't guarantee a bug free patch. WoW is proof of that. And Rift.

    Both have PTRs. Both have had the odd bug with their patches.

    Look at the Warrior bug with Legion where jumping from Skyhold could crash the game and put you in Dalaran for example.

    I can't think of a single MMO that's never had the odd issue/bug or had to hotfix to fix things.
    A bug found within hours of release would have easily been found on a PTR. The warrior bug wasn't something that impacted everyone and was known about and just took time to fix because it didn't effect everyone. This bug was found within hours that was easily reproducible and fixed in maintenance this morning so it wasn't some impossibly hard to find bug or incredibly hard to fix. This was entirely a failure on their QA teams part.

  16. #40716
    Quote Originally Posted by leviathonlx View Post
    A bug found within hours of release would have easily been found on a PTR. The warrior bug wasn't something that impacted everyone and was known about and just took time to fix because it didn't effect everyone. This bug was found within hours that was easily reproducible and fixed in maintenance this morning so it wasn't some impossibly hard to find bug or incredibly hard to fix. This was entirely a failure on their QA teams part.
    You cannot guarantee a perfect release every time.

    Yes QA should have been a bit more aware. But no game has ever had a perfect patch launch. A PTR does not always help.

    I'd love for all MMORPGS to have perfect patch launches. And it doesn't matter. It's still an example of a bug that's irritating. There will always been known issues with any game be they minor or major. Hence why the emergency maintenance happened.

    And servers were down for an hour-hour half at most. Not the end of the world. Was morning time in PDT so I doubt many were on over there and was nearly midday around here when a lot of people are at work/school.

    I was a bit irritated because it was my day off before I go Silverstone for the Grand Prix and I wanted to get the HoH farm out of the way but I just went and did some chores for a couple of hours.
    Last edited by Eleccybubb; 2018-07-04 at 06:12 PM.

  17. #40717
    Quote Originally Posted by alenore View Post
    I think the point is the world is much more transversal between expansions.
    It's pretty uncommon in WoW to have to do any quest in a previous zone when an expansion is released (except capitals obv). Allied Race and Artifact quests did that and it was nice, however Legion is really the first time it happened.
    Now in FF, current content often tie in old areas, NPCs, etc. One example of that would be the refugee from Dalmasca you have to meet in Eastern La Noscea when unlocking Ridorana. Most of the old crafting items are still used (thanks Housing!).
    The whole Eureka area is a throwback to the end of 2.3 (when the Isle of Val was seemingly obliterated by an Ultima-like spell). Most Job/class quests still have you go through Idylshire for it, or the RDM quest, even though it's old content.

    In short, they still build upon what they created before, unlike WoW where the expansion content is self-contained. You could almost never leave the broken isle/argus and there would barely be any difference.
    If you read my post I acknowledged the MSQ as the only area that accomplishes this pretty well. However, I don't think that's enough to say that it's considerably better, or even functionally better, because at the end of the day, you're still not doing old expansion content in any relevant manner, in either game.

    Notable example in WoW was acquiring my corrupted Ashbringer skin. That was a real treat to work with the community to unlock. It was especially touching to me as a PLD player from that time period who remembers the rumors back then and it was a nice nod to the community. Then there were the riddle mount puzzles and stuff too.

    Both games have room for improvement there and I am not comfortable assigning a winner in either category.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Simplest explanation?
    There is no other way than providing "work" in order to give the player a feeling of having a persistent world in which he always has sth. to do.
    Fun content is usually content we do once or twice, because endless repetition != fun for most people.
    While I agree with what you're saying I still don't think it's that black and white. I think work can be fun, if there's enough engagement/decision points to support it.

    Quote Originally Posted by leviathonlx View Post
    Perfect example of why you have PTR's. Or do basic shit like having QA zone out of the instance as each job.
    As someone with an extensive testing background at a fortune 500 company that would literally be one of the most obvious regression test scripts a QA tester would do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    PTR doesn't guarantee a bug free patch. WoW is proof of that. And Rift.

    Both have PTRs. Both have had the odd bug with their patches.

    Look at the Warrior bug with Legion where jumping from Skyhold could crash the game and put you in Azsuna for example.

    I can't think of a single MMO that's never had the odd issue/bug or had to hotfix to fix things.
    Dial it down for a second. No one is saying it should be bug free, but the simple fact of the matter is that a PTR does help identify stuff like this. A PTR might have solved half of Eurekas problems prior to launch too (like no bulk opening option, level scaling, etc.). That's an objective fact.

    However, it's not without consequences, especially in the spoilers territory. All stuff aside - SE really needs better QA procedures. Honestly, if I could relocate to JP and speak Japanese, I'd take the job and fix it just for the opportunity to pitch:

    1) Aymerics outfit NOT being gender locked/undyeable
    2) My Chocobo Racing remake pitch

    I was a bit irritated because it was my day off before I go Silverstone for the Grand Prix and I wanted to get the HoH farm out of the way but I just went and did some chores for a couple of hours.
    Nice! I used to be a spotter for my buddy down at the Baltimore GP. Was a ton of fun being that close to the cars. He got paid to shoot them, and I got paid to watch them

  18. #40718
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    I was sitting at work one day with a friend talking about mmo design when the question came up, "What would a mage tower-like challenge in FFXIV be like?". In my opinion, ff14 doesn't have the sort of class design to support a feature like that, but perhaps I'm wrong. What do you guys think?

  19. #40719
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    While I agree with what you're saying I still don't think it's that black and white. I think work can be fun, if there's enough engagement/decision points to support it.
    Sure, work can be fun, just not in a videogame, where you don't get anything of actual worth from your effort.
    Also, actual gameplay in most videogames is still limited to a few scenarios that get repetitive ... fast. No matter the genre, which is why most drop a game once they finished the story.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    I was sitting at work one day with a friend talking about mmo design when the question came up, "What would a mage tower-like challenge in FFXIV be like?". In my opinion, ff14 doesn't have the sort of class design to support a feature like that, but perhaps I'm wrong. What do you guys think?
    Don't even think about "class support" lol.
    Add systems support first.

    In order to get any precision and skill into the gameplay, you have to take the retarded lag based guessing game out of the equation.

    If there is one thing that triggers me during savage raiding, it's seeing "you did everything right" on my screen and then getting gibbed half a second later because the server was like "nope".

    I really love the game, world etc but the underlying unresponsiveness drives me nuts at times. Esp as a haler, wasting CDs etc on a dude near death only for the server to be like "yeah, I know the dude still lived in YOUR UI but over here, he was already dead".

  20. #40720
    Finished the new Hildy quests. Pretty amusing, makes me wonder if we're headed for a solo duty where you'll have to face an enemy as Hildy?

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