[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Rogalicus]

I just wanna know what the 4.4 raid wing is based on.

Considering that Deltascape had FF5 bosses and Sigmascape had FF6 bosses, third wing probably will be based on FF7.

[Eleccybubb]

Considering that Deltascape had FF5 bosses and Sigmascape had FF6 bosses, third wing probably will be based on FF7.

More than likely. Only other real option is FF4.

[Melsiren]

I don't understand why pushing more buttons to do the same thing is better.

That's a dangerous train of thought, why not make everything so bare bones that you can hit one button to do everything for you, it accomplishes the something as your whole skill set. Now of course that is a hyperbole but, I don't really see argument in "3 abilities in a row gets me 1,500 potency when mashing one 3 times could too." To be proper argument to remove a core aspect of the game.

I personally like the strict combo system, because there is a satisfaction when you do it perfectly. It reminds me of the MoP-WoD Protection Paladin before Blizzard turned it to the disgraceful mess it is today because babies cried about Holy power. (Hell 4.1 WAR played incredibly close to WoD Seraph Prot Pally.) Now it's not the perfect comparison but when you get into a <1> <2> <3> <reset> It's very similar to structure and flow to <CS> <Filler> <Filler> <CS> The only real key difference is FF14 highlights and makes it pretty clear what the best options while Protection Paladin did nothing to help the player know which ability to use next.

Hell, one can easily make the argument when it comes down to putting out max numbers games have always been like this, as I said the only difference is FF14 makes it very clear what your bread and butter in your rotation is compared to other games.

And look, the Combo system is not with out it's faults, I -hate- the way DRG combo's work because it's just <1a> <2a> <3a>< 4X/Y> and <1b> <2b> <3b> <4X/Y> I just feel the Combo system offers more to the game as far as flow is concerned than spamming 1 three times, 2 three times, and 3 three times. At least GW2 only has this design on one ability.

Speaking for tanks:
Combos are stupid and needlessy eat up button space and keybinds for the sake of it.

You say that but speaking as a WAR, it's important to know how your Beast gauge levels interact with your current combo step. For example, if you're Max Beast gauge and Upheaval is on CD It's a DPS gain to use Onslaught> FC if the GCD you just created with onslaught is Storms Path or Storms Eye. With gaining a Storms Path being a significant gain while Eye is a minor gain.

Now turning Melee into a 111,222,333, (Or 111, 122, 123, I won't be using this in the example because it muddies the water even more.) does not necessary take that away, but it messes with the flow. Instead of having Heavyswing and Maim, you have 2a, 2b and 3a,3b which while the same as Heavyswing and Maim in function... creates an awkward feel. You could argue it creates depth since you have to pay attention to if you're on 2a,2b,2c 3a,3b,or 3c, but it's not really depth it's just remembering that because someone did not want to put extra actions on their bars you now have to suffer with 1a,2a,3a being the same ability you can hit three different ways, and 2b,3b, also being the same ability you can hit two different ways all in the name of simplification. So yeah, trying to think about how that would work for WAR feels more like a mental wrench then QoL change.

That's just for WAR, other jobs we have to ask questions like will positionals still be a thing? Currently in the 111,222 system for PVP there are no positional requirements for moves. How would MNKS function? I fully admit you have a point with PLD and DRK, though I don't really play them enough to know if there are nuances I am unaware of.

My point is that the 111,222 system could work smooth for some jobs regardless of my opinions on how it flows, but It would not be a simple transition some jobs will have to have an overhaul.

Instead of adopting the same button mash system I would like them to evolve on how combos work for the independent Jobs. The consolidation of the combos feels like a step in the wrong direction to me. As said before it gives me strong Holypower removal feels, Prot pally went from my main of 12 years to a spec I would not play even if the alternative was jamming a crochet needle into my cock. I am even seeing the same arguments being made that Celestalon made for the HoPo removal. How waiting for SoR to come off CD is the same thing as one SoR every 3 Crusader strikes because the CD was roughly the same. But I digress I left that behind me for a reason.

Some part of me hopes if/when they turn to the PVP combo system that it will be optional, because I will personally will opt into the old combo system.

[Granyala]

Now turning Melee into a 111,222,333, (Or 111, 122, 123, I won't be using this in the example because it muddies the water even more.) does not necessary take that away, but it messes with the flow. Instead of having Heavyswing and Maim, you have 2a, 2b and 3a,3b which while the same as Heavyswing and Maim in function... creates an awkward feel. You could argue it creates depth since you have to pay attention to if you're on 2a,2b,2c 3a,3b,or 3c, but it's not really depth it's just remembering that because someone did not want to put extra actions on their bars you now have to suffer with 1a,2a,3a being the same ability you can hit three different ways, and 2b,3b, also being the same ability you can hit two different ways all in the name of simplification. So yeah, trying to think about how that would work for WAR feels more like a mental wrench then QoL change.

On that one I do have to agree.
While it would free up button space, it would not end up being a QoL improvement.

I think AION did it, the way you described it. You hit a combo skill and two new buttons would pop up if it was a "fork" skill, if not, the same button would change function dynamically. Combos usually only appeared when you hit critical, if memory serves, so it was somewhat rarer.
Not sure how well such a system would work in FF where combos happen constantly though.

[Melsiren]

On that one I do have to agree.
While it would free up button space, it would not end up being a QoL improvement.

I think AION did it, the way you described it. You hit a combo skill and two new buttons would pop up if it was a "fork" skill, if not, the same button would change function dynamically. Combos usually only appeared when you hit critical, if memory serves, so it was somewhat rarer.
Not sure how well such a system would work in FF where combos happen constantly though.

I never actually played Aion, I can tell you that MNK in ff14 functions almost identical to the Black Orc and the Swordmaster from Warhammer Age of Reckoning.

I like the idea of each Job having a unique way of using the combo system. I am not bold enough to say how I would want each Job to change, I do not seriously play anything outside 2 Jobs.

[Aruhen]

I personally like the strict combo system, because there is a satisfaction when you do it perfectly.

This basically. Yes it's not hard by any stretch but I find it satisfying. There's a flow to it that is enjoyable.

....I wouldn't be able to precast as a RDM too with the PVP change. There's probably other examples of things you probably wouldn't be able to do with the new system. Some will probably just say who cares but eventually with enough small changes it adds up.

One ray of hope is that the PVP skill changes reception was a mixed bag.

[Melsiren]

This basically. Yes it's not hard by any stretch but I find it satisfying. There's a flow to it that is enjoyable.

One of the things I enjoy about playing the Jobs in ff14 vs other MMOs, is the simple fact ff14 jobs feels like play or a dance. That goes for fight design too, while other games often feel like improv, where often the reactionary aspect takes focuse.

Now I love improv, I love quick thinking and wit. There is however a beauty in a strict rehearsed play when it comes out perfectly.

I feel performance satisfaction, brings me back to my theater and music days.

[Rogalicus]

One of the things I enjoy about playing the Jobs in ff14 vs other MMOs, is the simple fact ff14 jobs feels like play or a dance. That goes for fight design too, while other games often feel like improv, where often the reactionary aspect takes focuse.

This also leads to pushing the same set of buttons in the same order all the time. Design like this is better in some games like Osu or Dance Dance Revolution, but in MMORPG quickly causes boredom.

[Graeham]

Yeah, it might be satisfying if it were a complex piano concerto or something, but when you're playing the equivalent of Chopsticks on a kids toy piano 53462 times a day it's not that great.

I don't think someone who struggles to gear up is in a position to imply that the game has infantile difficulty...

[Melsiren]

Oh look, another Free Login Campaign starting tomorrow.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...a9b2939374f163

[Rogalicus]

I don't think someone who struggles to gear up is in a position to imply that the game has infantile difficulty...

What kind of mental gymnastics do you need to turn "pointless gear walls in MSQ ruin storyline" into "struggling to gear up"?

[Graeham]

What kind of mental gymnastics do you need to turn "pointless gear walls in MSQ ruin storyline" into "struggling to gear up"?

It's hardly a case of 'mental gymnastics'.

Just a critique of a poster who hardly ever has anything positive to say about the game and consistently belittles...pretty much every aspect of the game at every possible turn.

[Katchii]

If anything WoW has shown is that some people will hate it and some people will love it. Personally I hate what they have done to WoW and I hope FFXIV doesn't follow that road. Yes more buttons doesn't equal complexity but I like having to constantly press different buttons. I'd say a nice balance would be to make the PVP way the default in terms of rotational abilities with the option to revert to each action having its own button for people like me.

As far as the original question I'd say maybe Summoner. Since you want to play casually then you really don't have to keybind a lot of the stuff and can just leave your pet to do its own thing. Probably can fit everything on a single hot bar with maybe some of the longer cooldowns on a second one for occasional use.

I like having more buttons, in general, too. The issue with FFXIV is that most of the buttons (mainly on melee, casters are a bit different) are just a combo button that doesn't require and additional decision making, it's a foregone conclusion what button you're going to press most of the time, you just need to have 2+ more buttons to push to finish the combo. I don't find that particularly, engaging really.

I don't want FFXIV to prune as much as WoW, current number of buttons on most classes in WoW now is super small...like 4-5 really. I just think having as many as 20+ abilities you use relatively frequently is a little ludicrous.

Looked at this, https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/samurai/

I have a SAM at 70, and chose the abilities that I know I use frequently and it totaled 21... that's crazy.

As to your answer regarding SMN, it has ~20 abilities that should be keybound in order to be effective as well, some are cooldowns.

Every class in FFXIV requires at least that many...at least all the ones that I've played to 70, which is everything but Monk, Bard, Machinist, Dragoon and Ninja at this point.

I think FFXIV could retain it's combat flow and fun number of button presses without requiring almost 2 full hotbars to be filled.

And the above number of abilities don't even factor in the 5 role abilities either. So...yeah. Too damned many, IMO.

[Rogalicus]

It's hardly a case of 'mental gymnastics'.

Just a critique of a poster who hardly ever has anything positive to say about the game and consistently belittles...pretty much every aspect of the game at every possible turn.

You can critique with counterexamples, but personal attacks bring nothing to discussion, especially since he never said anything about struggling to gear up.

[Melsiren]

You can critique with counterexamples, but personal attacks bring nothing to discussion, especially since he never said anything about struggling to gear up.

It was pretty clearly implied that he was having issues getting the gear to complete the MSQ.

[Rogalicus]

I have a SAM at 70, and chose the abilities that I know I use frequently and it totaled 21... that's crazy.

As to your answer regarding SMN, it has ~20 abilities that should be keybound in order to be effective as well, some are cooldowns.

Every class in FFXIV requires at least that many...at least all the ones that I've played to 70, which is everything but Monk, Bard, Machinist, Dragoon and Ninja at this point.

I think FFXIV could retain it's combat flow and fun number of button presses without requiring almost 2 full hotbars to be filled.

And the above number of abilities don't even factor in the 5 role abilities either. So...yeah. Too damned many, IMO.

What I also dislike is how little optional or flavour abilities most classes have. For example, from 24 (23, if you exclude Nastrond) abilities of my dragoon 21 are used in general rotation, the only optional ones are Elusive Jump (gap opener) and Piercing Talon (obligatory overpriced melee ranged ability). Even something like mob type specific CC or party QoL like WoW healthstones or levitation would be nice to have.

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It was pretty clearly implied that he was having issues getting the gear to complete the MSQ.

It was implied that Tsukuyomi fight requires gear that you realistically don't have at that point if you just followed storyline, so after dramatic cutscene you are off to farm Eureka/Sigmascape/Swallow's Compass instead of, you know, engaging the enemy right in front of you.

[Aruhen]

I like having more buttons, in general, too. The issue with FFXIV is that most of the buttons (mainly on melee, casters are a bit different) are just a combo button that doesn't require and additional decision making, it's a foregone conclusion what button you're going to press most of the time, you just need to have 2+ more buttons to push to finish the combo. I don't find that particularly, engaging really.

To be completely frank the only argument I see when it comes to pruning classes is "I don't enjoy a lot of buttons". That's just a selfish reason in my eyes. Now maybe if everyone who wants this prune could actually throw some ideas as how to improve the gameplay of jobs while reducing bloat I'd be happy to listen. So far the only one I remember doing anything like that is Wreck way back for DRG.

edit; the live letter is happening at the moment. Final raid is called Alphascape because Omega: Omegascape is too weird. One of the new dungeons is called "The Burn" which is... interesting. The eureka in 4.4 also has some new system called Logos, whatever that is.

https://i.imgur.com/4K3Y6d5.jpg - picture from the new "The Burn" dungeon.

[StrawberryZebra]

That's a dangerous train of thought, why not make everything so bare bones that you can hit one button to do everything for you, it accomplishes the something as your whole skill set. Now of course that is a hyperbole but, I don't really see argument in "3 abilities in a row gets me 1,500 potency when mashing one 3 times could too." To be proper argument to remove a core aspect of the game.

The real issue with the current combo system is that it adds a lot of extra buttons while offering no additional depth. To put it simply, they don't offer any experiential differences or emergent possiabilities for the player.

To put this into a bit more perspective for you, I picked up a fantastic little indie game during the Steam Summer sale called Into the Breach. In which you have three abilities at any one time, spread across three different units. You get an absolule shit ton of potential options from just those three skills. Like being able to set terain on fire, then pushing enemies into it, or creating a long chain of adjoining objects as a conduit for lightning attacks. That one rule set allows for thousands of possible outcomes and lots of creative options to solve the problems the game puts in front of you.

On the other hand there are characters in BlazBlue, one of the more technical fighters on the market, with less total abilities than FF14 Jobs. There's a lot of complexity right there, but that buys you a lot of gameplay depth to work with as well, you can constantly think about how to use those tools at your disposal to approach problems you're presented with. Quite often, there's more than one good solution so it's up to the player to make a choice about which one is best at any given time during the match. That complexity has a rewarding payoff for those willing to invest the time to understand it.

So what you're ultimately left with for FF14 is a game that has more complexity than a fighting game, but with none of the depth that come with it. At the other end of the spectrum you can quite literally create an entire game with a single FF14 combo. There's nothing to really "understand" about FF14's combat, it's all spelt out for you explcitly in the tooltips. You can't improve by digging deeper into the underlying systems. You can't improve your performance by using your skills in different or creative ways. The complexity to depth ratio is just way off, and I don't think expecting Squenix to try fix that is unreasonable, particularly when they're only going to be adding more buttons and more complexity to the game over time.

[Eleccybubb]

https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...live_part_xlv/

4.36 coming August 7th with MH crossover. Crossover event is permanent this time.

Was wrong about the HM though. Seems we getting Arboretum Hard.

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What I also dislike is how little optional or flavour abilities most classes have. For example, from 24 (23, if you exclude Nastrond) abilities of my dragoon 21 are used in general rotation, the only optional ones are Elusive Jump (gap opener) and Piercing Talon (obligatory overpriced melee ranged ability). Even something like mob type specific CC or party QoL like WoW healthstones or levitation would be nice to have.

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It was implied that Tsukuyomi fight requires gear that you realistically don't have at that point if you just followed storyline, so after dramatic cutscene you are off to farm Eureka/Sigmascape/Swallow's Compass instead of, you know, engaging the enemy right in front of you.

Then farm some gear. If you did Byakko which is more than likely despite it being side quest (branches straight off the MSQ after Hells Lid) Then you should at least be 325.

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/The_Jade_Stoa Requires 325.

It's not hard to go from 325 to 335. There is no way in hell you ignored Byakko when doing the 4.2 story especially considering the quest is a blue marked one and right there in your face when finishing the MSQ.

And even then gearing for that one is even easier. Get Eureka left side upto 335 and just Creation the rest. It's like 1 cap of Creation at most. Then just get a 360 ring. If anything that should bump you upto 335.

This is literally a case of "I want it now". Well tough to be honest. If you get behind in most games like these you usually have ways to catch up. There are usually catchup mechanics like Argus in WoW or Eureka in this. And you don't even need to fully do Eureka unless you want the relic weapon.

Final Steps was gated at 205. However the highest gear available to a non raider (including 24 mans) was 230.

Tsuku requires 335. Highest gear available without touching raids is 360. It's literally the same 25 ilvl difference to the max out of raid item levels.

These trials are based around the current people actually paying for the game. So naturally they would have had the Lore/Creation/Mendacity pieces needed for it.

As a returning player you have plenty of ways to catch up and hit that item level within a week at most. 2 if you pace it.

[Granyala]

I don't think someone who struggles to gear up is in a position to imply that the game has infantile difficulty...

But it has, compared to a piano.
Even savage raiding is pretty much a joke if you compare it's difficulty and the needed time invested to get to a decent skill level with any musical instrument.

There is a reason why we call them "games".

Edit: remember: I am talking about individual skill required. That isn't so high as one might expect, esp not once you factor in the equalizing properties of gear progression.

Raids mainly draw their perceived difficulty from having to do the dance in concert with 8 or 20 other people. Most bosses wouldn't stand up to snuff if they were implemented in a single player game.

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To be completely frank the only argument I see when it comes to pruning classes is "I don't enjoy a lot of buttons". That's just a selfish reason in my eyes. Now maybe if everyone who wants this prune could actually throw some ideas as how to improve the gameplay of jobs while reducing bloat I'd be happy to listen. So far the only one I remember doing anything like that is Wreck way back for DRG.

DRK example:

has two 3 stage combos, 6 buttons. Yet the first 2 buttons of both combos do not do anything interesting past being a prerequisite.
Eliminate them.

Result: 2 buttons needed instead of 6. Either use a mitigation skill (Souleater with manareg baked in) or use one for extra damage and aggro (Powerslash with upped damage + aggro).

You still make the same decision between aggro and mitigation/damage as you do now.
4 buttons that essentially do nothing have been removed.