[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Granyala]

Hello, would you like some "Illuminati Gobdip"?

How about "Illuminati Deep Gobdip"?

Or perhaps "Illuminati Gobcoat"?

Maybe you'd like some "Illuminati Deepest Gobdip" or our new "Illuminati Deepest Gobcoat"?

Ah, I see. You must be looking for "Illuminati Gobtwine", of course. Would you like that in Taut or Tautest variety?

That I can actually understand, they want it to be a raid drop on different bosses, independent of the books, so there is no way past having 3 distinct items.

What I do not understand is: Trade tomes at NPC A for [weird letters].
Trade [crystals] at NPC B für an [allagan stone].
Now go to NPC C and trade [weird letters] and [allagan stone] for [weapon].

Seriously? Why them awkward letters? Why can't I grab crystals and just trade it for the weapon paying 1K tomes in the process?
Why do I have to hunt through 6 menus instead of it all being in one proper UI like field, while the NPC accepts different varieties of currency?

Ugh. Probably "PS3 limitations".

[Graeham]

I do think they could stand to ditch some of the clutter. One of the best quality of life changes lately was the decision to turn beast tribe currencies from an actual item into something tied to the currency tab. It's something that they should also do with primal tokens and upgrade items, in my opinion.

With that said, it is a Japanese game and they seem to love doing things in a very strict and regimented manner.

[Granyala]

With that said, it is a Japanese game and they seem to love doing things in a very strict and regimented manner.

True, they probably love the ritualistic character of multiple transactions in order to get an item.

[Wrecktangle]

So how do we feel about WoW now being completely unlocked up to and including Legion for the mere price of subscribing?

More importantly, how would we feel if FF14 took the same approach next expansion?

[Rogalicus]

So how do we feel about WoW now being completely unlocked up to and including Legion for the mere price of subscribing?

More importantly, how would we feel if FF14 took the same approach next expansion?

IMO it would be even better if more MMOs follow that trend. I've already seen Ashes of Creation and Pantheon dropping box cost entirely and requiring only subscription. The less entrance barriers games have the better.

[lawow74]

True, they probably love the ritualistic character of multiple transactions in order to get an item.

Ritual and custom is pretty important in a country where so many people live on an island. It evolved as a way to keep them from all murdering one another being constantly underfoot like that. So it's understandable it informs other areas of their lives, including their entertainment.

So how do we feel about WoW now being completely unlocked up to and including Legion for the mere price of subscribing?

More importantly, how would we feel if FF14 took the same approach next expansion?

Long as you get the same amount of content for the price, I'm cool with it. If they start whinging about having to develop less because 'muh monies' then it's a problem and they're stupid for doing it that way. :3

[lawow74]

It's amazing that it took them this long to make that move in the first place. I guess for a time there was a lot more profit in those old box sales than I thought.

The genre's trying to keep up with younger and more vital markets of the industry. Lowering the entrance wall is one of the ways. You also see the same thing in other industries, like the move from cell phone plans charging an up-front fee to just spreading it out month-to-month.

[Granyala]

So how do we feel about WoW now being completely unlocked up to and including Legion for the mere price of subscribing?

More importantly, how would we feel if FF14 took the same approach next expansion?

As an active player this makes 0 difference to me.

Battlechest was 15€ anyway and contained a free month worth 13€, so it's not as if some huge financial investment was needed to begin playing wow.
They merely eliminated a box product that was no longer necessary.

[Katchii]

So how do we feel about WoW now being completely unlocked up to and including Legion for the mere price of subscribing?

More importantly, how would we feel if FF14 took the same approach next expansion?

I really like this approach as it lowers the barrier of entry for new and returning players who took a break 1+ expansions ago. I'd really like it if FFXIV also went with this approach, and also add a story skip and leveling potion with the box sale of the most recent expansion to make sure newer or returning players don't have ridiculous amounts of time required before entering into the content they want to do.

I say this as a pretty die hard story fan, FFXIV just requires too much time invested in the older content for newer or returning players before they can enter the newer content or join their friends at end game.

[Melsiren]

Shockingly I don't really have an opinion on it. I mean I question the reasons. I mean offering 110 levels for only 15 a month before deciding if you want to invest in buying BFA seems like an alright business model.

I can't imagine there is a huge pool of people that the 15$ or 20$ battle chest cost was the deterring factor when there is a free trial.

I guess I agree with @Granyala this is just to modernize. FF14 could do it but I don't think they will, just does not seem like something SE as a company would be keen on.

I really like this approach as it lowers the barrier of entry for new and returning players who took a break 1+ expansions ago. I'd really like it if FFXIV also went with this approach, and also add a story skip and leveling potion with the box sale of the most recent expansion to make sure newer or returning players don't have ridiculous amounts of time required before entering into the content they want to do.

I mean yeah it lowers the starting barrier slightly. (At least in terms of Wow) but I am pretty sure Wow added all expansions that were not the most current one to the battle chest with every new release.

Same goes for FF14, if you buy SB you get HW.

I actually remember them saying the jump potions did not sell as well as SE planned for them to sell, kinda wish we could get solid numbers.

[RohanV]

So how do we feel about WoW now being completely unlocked up to and including Legion for the mere price of subscribing?

More importantly, how would we feel if FF14 took the same approach next expansion?

Eh, it's pretty much the same as having the base game cost $15 and come with a free month. I don't think there's a big change for the consumer. It is nice for Blizzard because it simplifies what they sell.

[Granyala]

Timegating is only a thing for people that can handle their life, which appreantly mmorpgs seems to attract off.

Disagre. That might be a side effect, but the real reason is to extend subscription time.
Content cannot be created infinitely fast, so in order to lower the chances of people chewing through it in a few days and unsubbing, various gates are put in place.

-hard timegates (come back next week for more raid loot/tomes/beasties)
-super hard timegates (wait for minor patch x.xxx for feature Y to be released)
-soft timegates (stuff you can bruteforce-grind but isn't being particularly effective. Yellow crafter scrip would be an example. Infinitely grindable but at a rate that makes it not really mainstream)

They all serve the same purpose: to occupy the player longer.

[Melsiren]

As I said the first thing I did when I got back was dump gil into the economy, and buy the HQ crafted gear. I imagine that the MSQ having item level requirements keeps the crafting markets stable, because I checked the gear I purchased when I first came back and it is roughly the same price.

I can also say as a gatherer that the materials to make said items are in roughly the same demand.

Disagre. That might be a side effect, but the real reason is to extend subscription time.
Content cannot be created infinitely fast, so in order to lower the chances of people chewing through it in a few days and unsubbing, various gates are put in place.

-hard timegates (come back next week for more raid loot/tomes/beasties)
-super hard timegates (wait for minor patch x.xxx for feature Y to be released)
-soft timegates (stuff you can bruteforce-grind but isn't being particularly effective. Yellow crafter scrip would be an example. Infinitely grindable but at a rate that makes it not really mainstream)

They all serve the same purpose: to occupy the player longer.

Quick disclaimer, I speak for no one other than myself and I have not committed to a long grind in ff14 yet.

But historically the time grinds I found to be the most satisfying because it feels you are actively working towards something.

I have never been a fan of timegates out side of a waiting for a raid reset. Unless it's part of world building, example I (now this is just in memory) remember loving the feel of Quel'danas advancing over time. However I also know that only existed to extend content, but it had immersive value.

[Granyala]

Interesting. Never thought that many people would spend gil on crafted gear for combat classes. I certainly never did. :O

[Kazgrel]

Interesting. Never thought that many people would spend gil on crafted gear for combat classes. I certainly never did. :O

I do in the sense of having made my own crafting gear and the subsequent sinking of millions of gil into materia in order to make the combat gear.

- - - Updated - - -

Hello, would you like some "Illuminati Gobdip"?

How about "Illuminati Deep Gobdip"?

Or perhaps "Illuminati Gobcoat"?

Maybe you'd like some "Illuminati Deepest Gobdip" or our new "Illuminati Deepest Gobcoat"?

Ah, I see. You must be looking for "Illuminati Gobtwine", of course. Would you like that in Taut or Tautest variety?

Fortunately they somewhat learned their lesson and the items in SB are at least named different enough to prevent that...doesn’t change the aspect of SE’s obsession with all sorts of tokens and currencies, but a step forward is a step forward.

[Granyala]

I have never been a fan of timegates out side of a waiting for a raid reset. Unless it's part of world building, example I (now this is just in memory) remember loving the feel of Quel'danas advancing over time. However I also know that only existed to extend content, but it had immersive value.

Agreed. Time gates are okay, if it makes sense story wise.
E.g. assembling a ruling council or constructing a rather large object will take time, so completion could believably locked behind a time gate. Esp if the player is asked to fetch stuff repeatedly.

These days, DEVs just take the cowards way out and basically say "yah, wait for another patch because ...trees."

[StrawberryZebra]

With that said, it is a Japanese game and they seem to love doing things in a very strict and regimented manner.

Which is odd, it's a strictly Japanese problem. The rest of the world has already solved basic usability issues like this but for whatever reason Japanese games companies - All of them from Squenix and Konami all the way through to Nintendo seem to go out of their way to ignore it. Quite often their products just come across as being convoluted for the sake of it without any benefits.

This is just the usual hyperbolic nonsense about "muh gear". No one asked for the gear to be free, but rather for a natural gear progression via dungeons similar to how it (mostly) was in previous expansions and how MMOs generally work in the first place.

As strange as it may sound, I wonder what the effects of removing gear in an MMO entirely would be? That is to say, an MMO entirely without stat boosting items, consumables and the like. You would still have a natural progression as you leveled up, but without any added barriers in the way.

A traditional end game centered around gearing up wouldn't work, you could subsitute it for cosmetic items perhaps, but doing harder content for better stats isn't possible. You'd have an MMO based almost exclusively around the players skill. One that allows appropriate challenges to be put forwards to players of all skill levels.

Removing one of the oldest pillars of MMO design entirely and seeing if the others can support the weight of the genre. I'm not saying FF14 should do it, but as a thought experiment it has some interesting discussion points I feel.

The MSQ for example. It is - ostensibly - a largely single player storytelling experience. With the exception of the occasional group dungeon/fight, you may as well be playing a regular, main-series single player Final Fantasy game. And XIV does a fine job in this regard.

And yet, the age-old pitfalls are all still there. Large gaps in the leveling process that break up the quests and narrative. The need to stop and grind gear at certain intervals. The genre often seems to suffer from "getting in its own way" in this regard. As they try to create fun, engaging experiences they also have a compulsion to waste the time of the player simply for the sake of wasting it.

The core of the issue is that there are two diametrically opposed goals they're looking to achieve with the MSQ. Make it a Final Fantasy style single player story telling experience and also to make it an MMO experience too. The two cannot comfortably exist within the same story structure. Squenix have done their best to make the process less jarring, but that does little to change that you'll need to engage in both to progress.

There will be times you'll need to break from the MSQ to do other activities, be that leveling up to continue or getting the gear you need to progress. There will be times you're forced into the MSQ to unlock the rest of the game no matter how badly you'd rather skip it. It's not a solution that works for all players.

[Melsiren]

Agreed. Time gates are okay, if it makes sense story wise.
E.g. assembling a ruling council or constructing a rather large object will take time, so completion could believably locked behind a time gate. Esp if the player is asked to fetch stuff repeatedly.

These days, DEVs just take the cowards way out and basically say "yah, wait for another patch because ...trees."

Overall I think there is a real value in things making sense storywise. When the project is completed it gives you a sense of accomplishment even if it is purely artificial.

That goes for both grinding and simple questing. I remember many people were personally invested in the Sunwalker Desco questline during MoP. If I had to make a wager more people will remember that chain much more fondly than the standard collect 10 buzzard asses quests that plague the MMO experience. In the end the Sunwaller Desco questline is no different in purpose than Buzzard asses, it was put in game to level the player.

Slightly different topic then time gating, but felt it was worth mentioning.

[Granyala]

Ahh Horde story, that's why the name didn't ring a bell.

[Wrecktangle]

I actually remember them saying the jump potions did not sell as well as SE planned for them to sell, kinda wish we could get solid numbers.

I'd be curious of the data as well. Speaking strictly personally I know first hand via anecdotal evidence that 4 of my raid mates from WoW tried to join FF14, but were put off either by the oppressive cost, or the overly convoluted process to boost and skip.

I bet Wreck has much clearer thoughts on the matter. It's just that I've long had an issue with the genre at large seeming to trip over it's own feet because they're afraid of players just having fun and - god forbid - moving on to do something else now and then.

I think the MMO genre needs to embrace user created content and find a way to streamline it and support it. Look at something like old Starcraft Use Map Settings (UMS). This was the ability for users to literally design their own maps, scripts, and enemy placements as well as text. People created Dungeons and Dragons, Taco Bell, whole new SC storylines, etc. with this tool.

I've long advocated for Chocobo Racing as a great way to foray into this.

Imagine if you could create your own maps to share and race your FC/Static Mates, Friends, or just people around Rhalgars/Limsa?

I made a post about this on the OF: Snipping real quick:

If Chocobo Racing was Mario Kart/Crash Team Racing on Chocobos with summons and magic, it'd be really solid; fun for a lot of people. If it came with PVP and PVE matchmaking and a single player time attack mode even more would like it. If it had a level editor and shareable designs, you'd find even more people like it. THEN you throw in some cool rewards (speaking personally if I was the dev in charge, I would have put the entire chocobo coloring scheme and a ton of bardings behind this system, but alas they decided menu content was a better idea).

In the first sentence you get some people who like it. Adding matchmaking gets even more (without affecting the others), then you add a time attack mode to grab people who want to just race themselves, and then you add a level editor for people with a lot of free time and creativity, then you put some decent rewards in there to get the rest.

Do you get my point yet? You can design content for the bare minimum common denominator or you can design robust content.

No joke - if the above was how chocobo racing was, I'd probably be playing FF14 for THAT as my main content, and raiding would be my side content. Imagine if this was extrapolated even further with other side content (a la Blitzball, LoV, Squadrons could have been a FFT remaster in disguise, etc.). I always imagine the Gold Saucer should be this place I never want to leave because I'm doing Bo' racing with my squad against anyone who's down to play, then switching over to FFT simulator because some guy said his team could trash mine, or that his map was too hard to beat (fuck Dorter Trade City), etc.

Then take it even further to battle content where instead of Eureka being a binary snoozefest, could have had some actual stuff in there for EX/Savage level players, etc.

Secondly, scaleable content. Mythic + is a huge step in the right direction, Island Expeditions is another (if it works out). The idea to have procedurally generated content that not only selects tilesets, but objectives, enemies AND their AI.

Eh, it's pretty much the same as having the base game cost $15 and come with a free month. I don't think there's a big change for the consumer. It is nice for Blizzard because it simplifies what they sell.

Any thoughts on the idea of FF14?

They all serve the same purpose: to occupy the player longer.

Speaking strictly personally here I agree, but I always feel bad circling back to M+. While it is far from perfect, this system kept me engaged for a considerable amount of time strictly because it was fun. That to me is a great design of occupying a player, while simultaneously being fun.

I have never been a fan of timegates out side of a waiting for a raid reset. Unless it's part of world building, example I (now this is just in memory) remember loving the feel of Quel'danas advancing over time. However I also know that only existed to extend content, but it had immersive value.

I too quite liked Quel Danas. I got similar vibes from the Suramar campaign and why I tout it quite frequently as a clear sign WoW is improving in that area.