[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Granyala]

I find myself just as confused by this last raid fight as I was by our fight with Shinryu.
Suppose we can go by the old, "It doesn't have to make sense" though.

It actually makes a lot of sense.
Omega is an AI at the threshold of understanding what it is to be human. Why she does not have emotions it's pretty clear that she suffered, which is why Cid told her that if she had emotions and a heart, what she endured would have broken her.

She managed to create Alpha, an AI with feelings so her creation actually managed to cross the boundaries between AI and lifeforms.

[Katchii]

Yet in this case, they've completely killed off any tension in the story by showing the player that Alphinaud fine in a cutscene mere moments later. If we'd had the previous patch end with him being shot down and crash landing in The Burn then discovered during 4.4 what happened it would have carried a lot more weight. By knowing that he's fine, Alisaie just comes off as annoying. The audience knows what she doesn't and it just removes any narative tension the story may have had.

If they'd shown us the scene where Alphinaud and Shadowhunter come across the camp of dead bodies [i]before[/i] we found out that the Scions were having their souls stolen for example. A relatively minor change, yet couple that with Alisaie worrying about Alphinaud at the end of the patch carries a lot more weight - Because the player is also unaware of what may have befallen him.

I'd call that lazy writing myself. Or at least, poorly executed if not lazy. Rearranging the elements, even without changing anything else, would have left both patches ending on something of a cliff hanger. Alisaie not knowing what's happened to Alphinaud carries far more weight when the player is in the same situation.

It's not about you the player though, it's about her, his sister and what she's feeling because SHE doesn't know whether he's OK or not. I've never really found there to be much tension in this FFXIV story, more intriguing than anything else. Calling it lazy writing is inaccurate, it's just not how they wanted to tell the story. You being unable or unwilling to separate yourself from the character is your problem, not the games/writers. Third person omniscient is a very standard story telling mechanic, and we the player are that "third person." Try to see it from the viewpoint of the non-omniscient in-game characters and it might make more sense and have more weight.

[dope_danny]

I find myself just as confused by this last raid fight as I was by our fight with Shinryu.

Suppose we can go by the old, "It doesn't have to make sense" though.

stay away from M stay close to F.

[MrTharne]

Coming back to the game after stopping when I finished 4.0 story.
See that they released outfit with wings in the shop and I'm relieved that it doesn't seem to be the go to 'mogging outfit when logging in.
Look at Actions & Traits...Role 5/10...Oh great I can have all of them, wait...WHERE THE FUCK DO I FIND ANOTHER 5 KEYBINDS ???!!! I'M NOT CHOPIN.
Keep having disconnections and I don't really know where it comes from.

[Faroth]

Coming back to the game after stopping when I finished 4.0 story.
See that they released outfit with wings in the shop and I'm relieved that it doesn't seem to be the go to 'mogging outfit when logging in.
Look at Actions & Traits...Role 5/10...Oh great I can have all of them, wait...WHERE THE FUCK DO I FIND ANOTHER 5 KEYBINDS ???!!! I'M NOT CHOPIN.
Keep having disconnections and I don't really know where it comes from.

Yeah, I'm really wondering what they're doing by giving us all 10. Wondering if they're using it for data on which ones are used and which to prune or if this is the first step in some overhaul they're planning or what. It seems entirely contrary to what they specifically worked to do with Stormblood removing some bloat so new abilities would result in end of SB having the same keybinds as end of HW.

Now it's like "just have all of 'em"

[lawow74]

I know a lot of people argue against it, but I'm still firmly of the opinion there are too many situational buttons and hotbar real estate is taken up by combo chains that can and should be squished down to a single button. Yes yes, I get it, you think pushing more buttons makes it somehow more rewarding to play (or as is more likely, IMO, you think with less buttons more people will be able to do what you can and you'll be less desirable a player for groups...) but you don't need a lot of buttons to make gameplay complex or engaging. You just need better design driving them.

[Ausr]

Been free trialing and just doing the main scenario quests has led me to really hate one thing about FF14: Do I really need to go through 3 (if I'm just entering and not teleporting out, otherwise it's 6) fucking loading screens for something in the same building?

Like god damn, I'm enjoying myself but this trivial shit is annoying me to no end.

[RohanV]

Yeah, I'm really wondering what they're doing by giving us all 10. Wondering if they're using it for data on which ones are used and which to prune or if this is the first step in some overhaul they're planning or what. It seems entirely contrary to what they specifically worked to do with Stormblood removing some bloat so new abilities would result in end of SB having the same keybinds as end of HW.

Now it's like "just have all of 'em"

I think it's just a temporary work-around primarily to prevent healers being stupid and not taking Protect and Esuna.

My bet is that in 5.0, we'll get something like 2 sets of role abilities: Mandatory, which everyone gets, and Optional (choose 3 or so). So healers would always get Protect and Esuna, and get to choose 3 of the remaining ones. And if it turns out that the community thinks that ability X is a must-have, they can move X to the Mandatory group, and reduce the number of Optional abilities by 1.

[Granyala]

Where were you when Bahamut hit, jeez."

I had a falling out, so to speak, with the "authorities" of the druids guild, because in their eyes I was using my magic too openly. So Iwas living a hermits life deep in the Shroud. Only the cries of nature when Bahamut attacked convinced me to go back to civilization because I needed to do things I could no longer do alone and I felt obligated to use my knowledge of the healing arts to help.

Needless to say, that the druids guild wasn't exactly happy to see me but they were in no position to refuse my offer.

Omega gave up when the realized that she would not make a trade for power but trade in a baggage of weakness as well. That's when she abandoned her quest.

[MrTharne]

Just did Return of the Bull, why are npcs better at doing Lakshmi than some players ?


Edit : Did they add a way for the lvl 70 job gear to be upgraded or dyed ?

Edit 2 : Really don't know if I can trust this Asahi dude at all. I'm a bit wary of a guy with that kind of haircut. >_>

Edit 3 : Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand just after typing edit 2 I go say farewell to him and he fucking turns into a psycho Zenos fan boy. Dat haircut says it all, can't trust his type.

[StrawberryZebra]

It's not about you the player though, it's about her, his sister and what she's feeling because SHE doesn't know whether he's OK or not.

But if they want the player to share in that, they could have done so with no extra effort required. Instead, they want you to know that Alphinaud is fine and well throughout the entire patch. The whole "Finding Alphinaud" thing they've got going on is completely undermined when it never seems like he's in any sort of real peril throughout it. Instead of leaving a story hook from 4.4 to keep players interested in 4.5, they flubbed it by showing you their hand too early. It left the patch ending on a very weak note, where a simple reordering of the scenes would have it ending strong, with a solid set up for the next patch.

Alisaie, currently, has no strong character traits when not around Alphinaud. Attempting to push her into a leading role, and especially by having other characters in game do it for her, leaves her looking like a very weak protagonist. Protagonists make things happen for themselves, Alisaie does not. The fact almost the entire patch was centered around just one issue leaves her looking very flat when it comes to character development opportunities too. Thats why I said I'd be happy if Squenix killed her before the next expansion, to save us all from the train wreck they're in the process of making.

You being unable or unwilling to separate yourself from the character is your problem, not the games/writers.

Honestly, I'm extremely disassociated from my FF14 character. He's a mute sociopath with no personality and zero redeeming qualities. The "choices" I'm forced to make in conversation I just choose at random - They have no actual bearing on the story or game play. They're an annoyance that just stop me zipping through cutscenes at top speed. He's how I interact with the world of Eorzea, nothing more. He could be Link, Gordon Freeman or a floating blue checkered "texture missing" cube for all I care. The story hasn't been about me and my actions for a very long time now. I see no reason at all to be invested into my character *shrug*.

Yes yes, I get it, you think pushing more buttons makes it somehow more rewarding to play (or as is more likely, IMO, you think with less buttons more people will be able to do what you can and you'll be less desirable a player for groups...) but you don't need a lot of buttons to make gameplay complex or engaging. You just need better design driving them.

Where FF14 really drops the ball is when it comes to the underlying design behind your buttons. A lot just feel like they're there because the Job could use that ability in previous itterations of FF rather than as a core part of the Job design. Like the DRG's jump as an example. It doesn't really feel like it ties in well with the rest of the DRG toolset, being more likely to get you killed than do anything useful, and it pretty much just does damage.

It could be an organic part of a much more fun play style with a few simple changes though. Make it a gap closer for one, being able to leap around the battlefield would be both thematically appropriate for DRG, as well as giving them a much clearer identity in game. Second, allow it to reset on kills, then it's always ready when you need to target switch, it also makes it a a solid tool for leveling, allowing you to quickly get into combat. Finally, give DRG's an incentive to get into combat fast and want to stay there. My suggestion would be to make the Disembowl debuff a personal buff that the DRG needs to maintain, and have it activated by using Jump. Remove the other "dive" skills and just have an "all in one" Jump skill.

Then there are the other kind of filler abilities, that pretty much only exist so that all jobs have the same number of skills. I'll be honest, I don't see why this is a requirement at all. If a job only needs 12 skills to function and be fun to play then just leave it at 12. If another needs 18, let them have 18. Making sure that everyone has the same number of buttons is redundant when you're trying to create 15 unique play experiences.

The SCH post 50 is is a mess because almost all of those skills exist simply to fill the ability quota. They don't add anything unique or interesting to the job, they just take UI space with very situational skills you'll barely ever use. At worst, they're existing entirely in opposition to each other where Disipation requires you to dismiss your Fairy for a bonus to healing, where Aetherpact requires you keep it active for a bonus to healing.

Just to unpack the other part of this, where is the skill in FF 14's combat? Is it an execution challenge, where you're tested on how well you can press your buttons in order to get the best performance, or is it a depth challenge where you have an understanding of the games systems and mechanics in order to make the right choice at any given time?

For the most part, the Combo system precludes any form of depth challenge the game may present. You have a clear best choice in those situations without needing to put any thought into the situation. There is some minor execution required, but for the most part the long GCD keeps that to a minimum and Macros are able to fill in any of the gaps. So what are we left with here? A minumum of Execution and a minimum of Depth challenge rolled into one, with lots of button bloat to hide the fact that combat is extremely shallow at it's core.

For what it's worth, I completely agree with you. They should scrap the current system entirely and use the PvP ability sets as the basis for a job instead instead. PvP boils jobs down to just their core abilities and traits, and even adds welcome extra functionality to them too. Like DRG's Piercing Talon being an execute move. It turns it from a button you never press into something cool and useful. Bloated ability bars are a sign of ineptetude, not expertise.

[lawow74]

For what it's worth, I completely agree with you. They should scrap the current system entirely and use the PvP ability sets as the basis for a job instead instead. PvP boils jobs down to just their core abilities and traits, and even adds welcome extra functionality to them too. Like DRG's Piercing Talon being an execute move. It turns it from a button you never press into something cool and useful. Bloated ability bars are a sign of ineptetude, not expertise.

That would be a good start. I would note that Piercing Talon does have a use, mostly if you're solo or in a situation where you want to pull a target carefully (like inside the Deep Dungeon), but it is situational, even if I consider having a ranged attack basic functionality (and have to keep facepalming over people who cry about homogenization whenever it's suggested MNK gets one LIKE EVERY OTHER JOB IN THE GAME HAS...)

[Faroth]

We have this seemingly near-omnipotent being (at least within its own dimensions, and absurdly powerful in its mechanical form of course, too). One moment it can create superpowered beings at will to have fight one another and can just decide to have us not exist at all if it wants to, and the next moment it's just so confused by our repeated stabbing of things that it insists we try stabbing it too, and then just gives up on life or something?

I interpreted that in taking our form, it also made itself mortal to further emulate us. We basically killed it when it did so. It was able to reform with the last of its strength for the final conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

I know a lot of people argue against it, but I'm still firmly of the opinion there are too many situational buttons and hotbar real estate is taken up by combo chains that can and should be squished down to a single button. Yes yes, I get it, you think pushing more buttons makes it somehow more rewarding to play (or as is more likely, IMO, you think with less buttons more people will be able to do what you can and you'll be less desirable a player for groups...) but you don't need a lot of buttons to make gameplay complex or engaging. You just need better design driving them.

I find pvp boring as hell despite basically being the same because of the single button combo design. Dunno what the pyschological barrier is. I'd rather keep the buttons but accomplish the trim by emulating mudras. 3 separate buttons offers multiple combo results.

- - - Updated - - -

That would be a good start. I would note that Piercing Talon does have a use, mostly if you're solo or in a situation where you want to pull a target carefully (like inside the Deep Dungeon), but it is situational, even if I consider having a ranged attack basic functionality (and have to keep facepalming over people who cry about homogenization whenever it's suggested MNK gets one LIKE EVERY OTHER JOB IN THE GAME HAS...)

Monk's ranged attack should be a Hadoken, obviously. They already have a super charged one they fire down after leaping in the air.

[StrawberryZebra]

That would be a good start. I would note that Piercing Talon does have a use, mostly if you're solo or in a situation where you want to pull a target carefully (like inside the Deep Dungeon), but it is situational, even if I consider having a ranged attack basic functionality (and have to keep facepalming over people who cry about homogenization whenever it's suggested MNK gets one LIKE EVERY OTHER JOB IN THE GAME HAS...)

In PvP it gives you a choice to think about though; Do you carry on your combo or go for the execute? It's a huge step up over the PvE version which is almost never worth using outside of Deep Dungeons. More design like that would be welcome, it opens up a level of depth that doesn't currently exist outside of PvP while also reducing the number of filler buttons. Win-win.

Monk's ranged attack should be a Hadoken, obviously.

How could it be anything else? Bonus points if you learn it from wandering warrior with a red headband.

[lawow74]

I find pvp boring as hell despite basically being the same because of the single button combo design. Dunno what the pyschological barrier is. I'd rather keep the buttons but accomplish the trim by emulating mudras. 3 separate buttons offers multiple combo results.

Mudras are one of the things I hate the most. It's horrible design, especially for someone with a high latency connection like me. Stop wasting my time on some pretend dial-a-magic bullshit and gimme one button to hit for whatever ability.

[Granyala]

I interpreted that in taking our form, it also made itself mortal to further emulate us. We basically killed it when it did so. It was able to reform with the last of its strength for the final conversation.

It didn't have to.
When Alpha reads the logs, is becomes pretty evident that Omega is so damaged, that it is but a crippled shaodw of it's initial state.
It's greatest power was being able to create / summon monsters and analyze them.

Omega, as we met it, was very, very far from omnipotent.

[Eleccybubb]

So just finished Alphascape.

I like the little fluff the devs put in with Alpha after it all in being able to see him around Eorzea.

Saw him once near the Behemoth spawn.

Alpha in general is just amazing. Best Chocobo ever.

[Faroth]

Mudras are one of the things I hate the most. It's horrible design, especially for someone with a high latency connection like me. Stop wasting my time on some pretend dial-a-magic bullshit and gimme one button to hit for whatever ability.

Mudras are wonky because they have no GCD and a short time window to cast the next one. I mained Ninja from the day it released to the end of Heavensward and I had to sub to an outside service to reduce my latency since my ISP was causing me issues. I know all about latency & mudra frustrations.

If they were on GCD like a normal ability, it wouldn't be as noticeable and 3 attacks could lend a lot of variety and options based on what you choose for your combo. Having 3 buttons could allow for a direct damage combo, a threat reduction (or increase) combo, a DoT combo and far more. You could have multiple direct damage, multiple DoT, a buff or debuff combo. You could arguably have 27 potential combinations from just 3 ability buttons (though I'm not suggesting we should go to those levels. That's pretty insane).

If you really want to remove all choice (though also I suppose it removes room for error) and have a single button you press half a dozen to a dozen times for your rotation, you'll be sorely disappointed.

[lawow74]

If you really want to remove all choice (though also I suppose it removes room for error) and have a single button you press half a dozen to a dozen times for your rotation, you'll be sorely disappointed.

Again, you're taking my advocacy for a compressed hotbar to ludicrous extremes, a response I see often because I suspect people have no cogent counter-argument. It's understandable, though, as IME either you see pushing more buttons as being proportional to skill and enjoyment, or you do not. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground.

I will say this, though: Street Fighter did more with six buttons and an eight-direction joystick than any hotbar MMO ever could. That is what I call a triumph of design.

[Faroth]

I will say this, though: Street Fighter did more with six buttons and an eight-direction joystick than any hotbar MMO ever could. That is what I call a triumph of design.

You just called the exact same thing "dial-a-magic bullshit."

|
< >
|

4 hot keys, let's number them from top clockwise 1, 2, 3, 4 and then A & B will be hotkey 5 and 6. (We're simplifying without the diagonals)

Hadoken is 3, 2, 5
Shoryuken is 2, 3, 2, 5

That's 100% exactly how mudras work. Different order of the same few buttons = different results. That's exactly what Street Fighter is and exactly what I said I'd prefer over a single button combo and what you dismissed as dial-a-magic bullshit instead of "gimme one button to hit for an ability" which is definitely not Street Fighter's method (barring Chun Li and Honda each with one ability, anyway).

I'm missing something of what you're trying to say you'd like to see. I'm thinking you're wanting like they have in PvP where (Samurai for example) presses Button 1 x 3, Button 2 x 3, Button 3 x 3, and then their combo. I'd prefer the mudra/Street Fighter method to prune button bloat. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding?