[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[lawow74]

RDM, as well.

And as @Katchii pointed out, SMN and BLM also have procs to consider. But their gameplay doesn't completely revolve around them like BRD does, or involves juggling procs and resources in a limited window like MCH does. RDM has to watch its resources and procs and make decisions based on how its mana is lining up as to which ability to use when.

[Melsiren]

I can tell you I have to make choices all the time as a WAR, mostly involving Onslaught, and the entire GCD manipulation concept. Combine that with fight mechanics and there are plenty of wrong things you can do outside of Tank buster mismanagement and combo mess ups.

[Granyala]

Right, I was being broad, but I think the point still stands.

Not really.
You would do pretty much the same with your HoT healer, because ultimately, as a healer when we do is dictated by the encounter / fails of others and not the class.
You might push buttons that look differently but you would try to crank the HPS at the same time as other healers because the encounter necessitates it.

[Katchii]

Not really.
You would do pretty much the same with your HoT healer, because ultimately, as a healer when we do is dictated by the encounter / fails of others and not the class.
You might push buttons that look differently but you would try to crank the HPS at the same time as other healers because the encounter necessitates it.

That's exactly what I'm saying though.... you just restated what I said in different words. Unless I'm completely misinterpreting what you're trying to say here?

The healers all have the same core kit, so would play very similarly if put into the same situation. That's what I'm saying, in a nutshell.

[Kazgrel]

BRD and MCH say hello.

BLM and SMN also fit that bill, but no nearly to the extent of BRD.

BRD at this level of gear (crit) is hilarious; I’ve had entire durations of Mage’s Ballad where I weaved a BL/RoD inbetween every single GCD. Not to mention literally going from 0 to 3 charges for Pitch Perfect within half a second of having lobbed an Empyreal Arrow. Fun stuff!

[Granyala]

That's exactly what I'm saying though.... you just restated what I said in different words. Unless I'm completely misinterpreting what you're trying to say here?

The healers all have the same core kit, so would play very similarly if put into the same situation. That's what I'm saying, in a nutshell.

I am (still) trying to say, that your suggestions of "choice" are just illusions.
Whether you use shields, HoTs or direct heals after the fact, the encounter still presents you with the same problem. No matter what healer you play, your response will be the same.

Massive AoE damage? -> crank up AoE healing / shield appropriately
ST damage -> heal ST damage.
Massive damage with very little time to recover -> use cooldowns.

There is no way to make healers or rather healING truly different on different classes. A 2 healer setup does not provide the flexiblity needed. This isn't WoW with 6 healers in a raid, one to heal tank, one to chainheal the melees one to spam HoTs during cross healing on the entire 25man raid.

That's why healing felt so radically different when playing a druid opposed to a paladin, even though a druids spell essentially do the same thing only slower. You had a different class AND a different assignment in a raid. I played all healers in WoW in 5man dungeons and they basically all felt the same. Yeah sure you use HoTs as a druid of Shields as a disc priest but since content had to be designed to be healable by all healers they mostly stuck to the generic tasks.

What you want is different healing jobs not just different classes. You would need more than 2 healers in a raid and way more than 8 people to really accomplish these different roles. Once you have that, then you can move class toolkits further away from each other because then you do not have to adhere to the expectation that every healer needs to be nearly equally effective in every situation.

[Katchii]

I am (still) trying to say, that your suggestions of "choice" are just illusions.
Whether you use shields, HoTs or direct heals after the fact, the encounter still presents you with the same problem. No matter what healer you play, your response will be the same.

Massive AoE damage? -> crank up AoE healing / shield appropriately
ST damage -> heal ST damage.
Massive damage with very little time to recover -> use cooldowns.

There is no way to make healers or rather healING truly different on different classes. A 2 healer setup does not provide the flexiblity needed. This isn't WoW with 6 healers in a raid, one to heal tank, one to chainheal the melees one to spam HoTs during cross healing on the entire 25man raid.

That's why healing felt so radically different when playing a druid opposed to a paladin, even though a druids spell essentially do the same thing only slower. You had a different class AND a different assignment in a raid. I played all healers in WoW in 5man dungeons and they basically all felt the same. Yeah sure you use HoTs as a druid of Shields as a disc priest but since content had to be designed to be healable by all healers they mostly stuck to the generic tasks.

What you want is different healing jobs not just different classes. You would need more than 2 healers in a raid and way more than 8 people to really accomplish these different roles. Once you have that, then you can move class toolkits further away from each other because then you do not have to adhere to the expectation that every healer needs to be nearly equally effective in every situation.

You and are are saying the same thing....

I haven't brought up how to make healers different or alternatives to healing style in this particular discussion. I'm saying that under the current healing and game play paradigm, the healers don't feel much different from each other, for the exact reasons you're bringing up.

[Graeham]

Patch 4.45 is scheduled to release on Tuesday, November 6.

That's not too far off and it puts it before the first Fan Fest so no time will be wasted on discussing or showing off Pyros during that period.

I'm hoping it ends up being closer to Anemos than Pagos...

[lawow74]

I'm hoping the blowback Pagos created will have engendered some tweaks to Pyros to keep it from being another chaingrindhell shitshow. But we will see. I'm expecting more elvl grind, more mount gating, more bullshit elvl restrictions on Aetherytes, more XP loss upon death and release. Hopefully they won't do more vertical and must walk to pass this point (and then die anyways even when you do walk cos it just randomly decides to wake up and one-hit you) bullshit.

[Wrecktangle]

Not entirely a tuning one. As your group gets better gear the tanks take less damage, so there's less healing required there, the armour bonuses across your raid reduce the AoE damage they take, so again less healing, and lastly the healers themselves are going to have more MP and MP regen. It might not make MP issues vanish entirely, but it's a problem that gets attacked from multiple angles.

Running out of MP should, imo, be the "your raid took too much avoidable damage" failure state for healers, not the default one.

Running out of MP would happen based on decision making. Be it bad management, too many mistakes, overlapping CDs, etc. We're in agreement there. Under my proposed paradigm, tanks can offset the increased defense by shifting their resources into damage/threat as needed. This means they take marginally less (as gear dictates), but can now focus on spending resources (i.e. GCDs, Oath/Beast, etc.) on more DPS oriented effects instead of defensive as they gear up.

I'm not entirely sure we can fix the problem completely, and I do agree it gets hit from all angles, but I do believe it's mostly a tuning issue that as long as the combat is deep enough to support shuffling of resources it can work.

You can dick around with healers MP if you make DPS spells free of charge.
I do NOT want to play an oldschool MP constrained healer in a world where everyone and their grandma expects me to fill every .5s downtime by casting a damage spell.

I am open to either way or both. I wouldn't be opposed to having DPS spells cost no MP and I wouldn't be opposed to healers really having little time to DPS in raid/dungeon encounters.

Interesting, I only know priority based DPS from WoW (never played DPS in FF-XIV) and there, barring the opener, each pull is a little different w/o the boss needing to F things up.

The sameness is pretty much there for tanks too.
If you try to heal with an SCH like you'd heal as WHM, you'd make a pretty lousy SCH.
Main difference is preemptive healing vs reactive healing. Also a resson why I never play SCH because I rather react than guess ahead.

AST is just a copycat of both.

This is true for PLD as well. Every single fight I am hitting the same GCD at the same exact mechanic, at the same exact timer. It sucks.

I can tell you I have to make choices all the time as a WAR, mostly involving Onslaught, and the entire GCD manipulation concept. Combine that with fight mechanics and there are plenty of wrong things you can do outside of Tank buster mismanagement and combo mess ups.

Things can go wrong for sure, but the decision is almost always binary. Away from boss? Use Onslaught. Tankbuster? Use CD. Otherwise DPS combo/buffs. It'd be nice with some genuine kit synergy and fluctuating encounter mechanics to cause a little chaos.

[dope_danny]

Patch 4.45 is scheduled to release on Tuesday, November 6.

That's not too far off and it puts it before the first Fan Fest so no time will be wasted on discussing or showing off Pyros during that period.

I'm hoping it ends up being closer to Anemos than Pagos...

I would rather Yoshi just go "and eureka has been removed"

[Eleccybubb]

I would rather Yoshi just go "and eureka has been removed"

To be honest if it finishes up Stormblood fine.

However it's content that should not carry over into 5.0 imo. Go back to traditional relic grinds.

- - - Updated - - -

Patch 4.45 is scheduled to release on Tuesday, November 6.

That's not too far off and it puts it before the first Fan Fest so no time will be wasted on discussing or showing off Pyros during that period.

I'm hoping it ends up being closer to Anemos than Pagos...

Meanwhile I'll just be doing my Hildy quests and not giving a shit about Pyros.

[Kazgrel]

Meanwhile, I just went to log in before heading to work and got met with a whole lotta nope...game launcher just sits at blank black screen for 1-2 minutes before erroring out. Hooray DDoS...

I'm gonna laugh if Pyros weapons are 385. Literally not even worth doing if that's the case. Figure they will be 390.

[lawow74]

Meanwhile, I just went to log in before heading to work and got met with a whole lotta nope...game launcher just sits at blank black screen for 1-2 minutes before erroring out. Hooray DDoS...

I'm gonna laugh if Pyros weapons are 385. Literally not even worth doing if that's the case. Figure they will be 390.

I'm expecting 375/380/390 myself. And last step will be 395/400/410 to make them BiS over Savage.

[dope_danny]

To be honest if it finishes up Stormblood fine.

However it's content that should not carry over into 5.0 imo. Go back to traditional relic grinds.

I'm half joking but jesus christ i hope it doesnt show up in 5.0. I have this feeling were it not delayed they wanted it to be the supporting pillar of content for stormblood in a "they will always have this as a laid back grind inbetween content to work for tangible rewards" kind of dev thinking but i don't know anyone i play with that got past like lvl.12 in the first eureka release and nobody has touched the second. Dyeable relic gear is nice, but it aint that nice to be worth the time.

I mean shit i spend all of ARR and HW getting all the relics and padjal weapons. This time i've just gotten the weekly token for the Omega related weapon and called it good. The longer the game gets in the tooth and the more jobs you have to upkeep the more a grind that detracts from that needs to really draw you in for one reason or another.

and boy Eureka sure aint that. I would rather do Diadem all day.

[Faroth]

I know I'm in the minority on it, but I'd have preferred Eureka to be a full blown old school MMO zone with different mobs in different areas with potential for a spawn to drop whatever rarities you're after. The old fight your way down into lower depths of an area, or fight through kind of a maze to get to a safe camp spot with some death penalties you actually feel so the incentive is to RUN, not just die and respawn with "meh, whatever." I was expecting there to be trains that could wreck your group despite you having no part in the group that caused said train.

Some group content that could feel a bit pressing if there's too many enemies at once and an utter death sentence at a certain point. Something that brings back the danger but also the thrill of Emperor Crush and Ambassador D'vinn about to decimate your entire party. There was satisfaction in jumping in to fight a train of enemies and saving another group from their pursuit.

Alas, that doesn't offer a quick route that focuses on the individual getting their rewards and emergent gameplay is frowned upon by both players and developers these days, so I know something like that would never EEEEEEEEEEVER happen.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean shit i spend all of ARR and HW getting all the relics and padjal weapons. This time i've just gotten the weekly token for the Omega related weapon and called it good. The longer the game gets in the tooth and the more jobs you have to upkeep the more a grind that detracts from that needs to really draw you in for one reason or another.

Adding in normal raids and thus an extra layer of progression between raid & 24 man/tomestone/relic combos kind of made me lose interest in the relic. You get it an it's already obsolete compared to something you already have or are about to get with minimal effort. The dyeable job sets are more of a draw for me than the relic in Eureka. But with that said, if we had the ARR books of doing dungeons, FATEs, etc..... I still wouldn't have much incentive to get the relic because I can easily get a match or better.

The unique appearance of relics could be a draw, but with that as the main incentive, I need to see the final product that I'm working for rather than working towards something I blindly hope will look cool.

[lawow74]

and boy Eureka sure aint that. I would rather do Diadem all day.

Diadem's style of FATE grind was 1000x better. You queue in, you have your group, everyone mounts and goes to the goal, does the mission, you get your reward and you're done. Hell, The Rising was great too, cos there was no pointless downtime. Just bam, FATE, done, bam, FATE, done as long as you wanna do it. No need to set up, get a group pretty much instantly, jump right in and go to work.

Instanced FATE grind? No worries, bring it on, I don't mind it in the least cos I know it's getting me towards my goal. Chaingrindhell and bullshit level/travel gating? FUCK YOU SE. I'll tolerate it only as long as I have to for my Relic and then I'm Audi.

[dope_danny]

I know I'm in the minority on it, but I'd have preferred Eureka to be a full blown old school MMO zone with different mobs in different areas with potential for a spawn to drop whatever rarities you're after. The old fight your way down into lower depths of an area, or fight through kind of a maze to get to a safe camp spot with some death penalties you actually feel so the incentive is to RUN, not just die and respawn with "meh, whatever." I was expecting there to be trains that could wreck your group despite you having no part in the group that caused said train.

The trouble is if i want that i can load up FFXI anytime i want. That gameplay already exists from the same company in the same series and its still a live game. They should totally experiment and come up with fresh things but it feels like WoW's island expeditions and it exists "because they gotta have something to farm" and not "oh this is going to be so much fun for them" at least the zodiac books meant you were always having a different experience and going to different places. This is just goldbot simulator 2k18.

[dope_danny]

Thats kinda bullshit argument, the old school FFXI does not exist anymore. Thats like saying if you want play oldschool wow boot up BfA. Not that i am a die hard fan of eureka, just saying

Not when it was specifically sold as "inspired by FFXI", the game has been nuetered with trust npcs and that insane repeatable quest speed leveling but the gameplay is still just macros and killing mobs, only difference here is the macros are spawn timers.

[Kazgrel]

I'm expecting 375/380/390 myself. And last step will be 395/400/410 to make them BiS over Savage.

I don’t see them going over 405, but who predicted 280 weapons from Diadem 2.0? Not me.

I wouldn’t even be that mad if that happened (410 ilvl Final Eureka weapon). By the time that’s available, the raid tier will be ~6 months old and next xpac would be ~3 months away.