[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Granyala]

Which in a decent group is not bad. It's pretty straight forward and not all that challenging, but it does require you to pay attention and constantly be on the move to find the next mob to chain kill. Very reminiscent of the old school FFXI xp grind skill chain groups, which were no doubt a grind, but were still fun since they required constant attention and coordination else you could potentially die...which was a HUGE deal for many reasons.

What attention lol.
The tank, maybe. If groups pull multiple high levels the healers gets to cast single target heals... but the rest is just absolutely braindead. Most DPS can blindly mash their rotation almost the entire time b/c the mobs don't do much. We went in, chatty and humorous, over the next two hours the TS went quieter by the minute until we realized that we were fighting the urge to fall asleep more than the mobs. We did that for 3 sessions, then we concluded that this type of "content" is not worth our precious free time.

Sadly, my group was so fed up with Eureka, that they didn't go back in after the NM train buff hit.

Savage raiding, now THAT is requesting attention and is fun in a proper way.
Dungeons do so too, albeit in a less punishing manner, should your attention slip away.
@threadz: Yeah I still find it royally stupid that expert runs are limited to 2 dungeons. <_<

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They obviously are not releasing as many dungeons which could be eureka raids or both

They flat out stated that they wanted to do more content that is deviating from the normal MMO formula (like Eureka, I guess) which is why we lost the 3rd dungeon per patch. Raids have nothing to do with that.

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frankly ffxiv is getting too close to wow already in the idea of less dungeons and larger ilv gaps for my liking.

Item level gaps aren't that big of a deal. You get 390 for tomestones, savage raiders get a measly 10ilvs more.
Noticeable but no where near as ridiculous as in WoW, where a mythic raider will do 2-3 times your output, rendering all your efforts and skill completely useless until you have them "purplz".

FF-XIV has a very, very long way to go to be similar to WoW in that regard.

[Sorrior]

What attention lol.
The tank, maybe. If my groups pulls multiple high levels the healers gets to cast single target heals... but the rest is just absolutely braindead. Most DPS can blindly mash their rotation almost the entire time b/c the mobs don't do much. We went in, chatty and humorous, over the next two hours the TS went quieter by the minute until we realized that we were fighting the urge to fall asleep more than the mobs. We did that for 3 sessions, then we concluded that this type of "content" is not worth our precious free time.

Savage raiding, now THAT is requesting attention and is fun in a proper way.
Dungeons do so too, albeit in a less punishing manner, should your attention slip away.
@threadz: Yeah I still find it royally stupid that expert runs are limited to 2 dungeons. <_<

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They flat out stated that they wanted to do more content that is deviating from the normal MMO formula (like Eureka, I guess) which is why we lost the 3rd dungeon per patch. Raids have nothing to do with that.

Honestly i only half believe that

And we went from 3 to 2 to 1 or 2 depending on patch..

I expect 1 per patch and maybe none or every other come 6.0

And it doesn't change any of my other points. In 2.0-2.1 for instance all gear had the same ilv cap. Raiders could obviously reach it first via tomestones, raid kills amd crafted(bis was actually a mix of all 3) and by doing it this way it meant people could say sub for raiding guild members, run dungeons do pretty much anything and by patches end be mostly equal.

Today not so. And i personally don't think good design as it just fractures a community little by little.

And yes that WAS in responde to raiders saying they should get the most powerful gear.

I have no issues woth raiding in fact i love to do it. I have issues with raider first type gear systems and designs.

In fact i mostly play for story now especially since it is pretty clear class design for pve is very raid focused now.

The games taking clear ques from wow and i am worried about it.

But i also know my views are a minority here and very few agree. But the trends and patterns are there. However i will say this. I will take back alot of what i have said if ultimate doesn't become a new difficulty mode..but i do expect it too

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What attention lol.
The tank, maybe. If groups pull multiple high levels the healers gets to cast single target heals... but the rest is just absolutely braindead. Most DPS can blindly mash their rotation almost the entire time b/c the mobs don't do much. We went in, chatty and humorous, over the next two hours the TS went quieter by the minute until we realized that we were fighting the urge to fall asleep more than the mobs. We did that for 3 sessions, then we concluded that this type of "content" is not worth our precious free time.

Sadly, my group was so fed up with Eureka, that they didn't go back in after the NM train buff hit.

Savage raiding, now THAT is requesting attention and is fun in a proper way.
Dungeons do so too, albeit in a less punishing manner, should your attention slip away.
@threadz: Yeah I still find it royally stupid that expert runs are limited to 2 dungeons. <_<

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They flat out stated that they wanted to do more content that is deviating from the normal MMO formula (like Eureka, I guess) which is why we lost the 3rd dungeon per patch. Raids have nothing to do with that.

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Item level gaps aren't that big of a deal. You get 390 for tomestones, savage raiders get a measly 10ilvs more.
Noticeable but no where near as ridiculous as in WoW, where a mythic raider will do 2-3 times your output, rendering all your efforts and skill completely useless until you have them "purplz".

FF-XIV has a very, very long way to go to be similar to WoW in that regard.

See you added another bit. And it is not the short but longterm difference. i have gone into a df run and seen the tank solo bosses in what was current content..

Nobody not even the best geared tank should be soloing bosses in current content at least imo

[Katchii]

What attention lol.
The tank, maybe. If groups pull multiple high levels the healers gets to cast single target heals... but the rest is just absolutely braindead. Most DPS can blindly mash their rotation almost the entire time b/c the mobs don't do much. We went in, chatty and humorous, over the next two hours the TS went quieter by the minute until we realized that we were fighting the urge to fall asleep more than the mobs. We did that for 3 sessions, then we concluded that this type of "content" is not worth our precious free time.

Admittedly, it's not engaging, but it does require you to actually do something you can't just AFK and cast a spell here and there for credit, it does take some semblance of attention for you to mash your rotations, change targets when necessary and move a little bit if you want to catch all of the mobs you're trying to kill.

By attention, all I mean is you have to watch the screen and press buttons, not semi-afk auto-run alongside a giant train of people and blindly hit a heal or something every now and again.

I'm not trying to defend the content, I find it just as uninteresting and not worthwhile as you, just saying that by comparison to the mindless semi-afk NM train, mob grinding requires you to pay a bit more attention.

And this post REALLY just reinforced that I likely won't ever be stepping foot there again. Here's hoping whatever comes next in Shadowbringers as the successor to Diadem and now Eureka, is better.

[Granyala]

When I first really, really quit WoW I came back at...some point near the end of MoP I think?
And holy fuck. I was a level 90 in entry level epics or whatever and I had a friend in raiding gear and we did some shit together and the motherfucker was doing literally 10x my DPS sometimes. Granted, sometimes that was because of really short fights where he could burst hard and whatnot, but still. Was heavily demotivating.

I had the exact same experience when I quit raiding at the beginning of HFC (Due to burnout after 8.5 years) and my raid buddies took me to a HC Archi funrun so I could get the moose.
Everyone in there did roughly 2x my output. Granted, I was unfamiliar with the boss and a little rusty but still... damn.

Ever since then, when I am in LFR, I must never open recount. Too depressing. That's when the entire gear grind wheel fell flat on it's face for me. Why grind and invest time when I am never going to stand a chance against them raiders?

Bottom line: I sub for a month or 2 at the start of an expansion to see the story and enjoy the new zones.... I ignore the rest.
My wallet certainly agrees.

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Today not so. [everthing being the same item level] And i personally don't think good design as it just fractures a community little by little. And yes that WAS in responde to raiders saying they should get the most powerful gear.

See you added another bit. And it is not the short but longterm difference. i have gone into a df run and seen the tank solo bosses in what was current content..
Nobody not even the best geared tank should be soloing bosses in current content at least imo

1) Sadly, raiders NEED a higher item level. That gives SE either more balancing headroom or enables more people to see the content.

Let me explain:
They either balance the encounter to be difficult at i390 (mostly the latter 2) and getting a bit of 400 gibes them bosses a soft nerf, so lesser skilled groups get a leg up later on, esp once the upgrade token are introduced in the second half of the Tier.

Other variant: they tune the endboss to i400, making it virtually cruel to stand there undergeared. World firsters, who almost always go in undergeared, will grind their teeth, while slower raiders still get a chance due to indirect gear nerfs by the time they reach the boss.

This is the same reason why Blizzard insists, or rather has to insist, on these ilvl differences. It just gives the DEVs and players more breathing room.

2) To be blunt: I don't care about long term differences. It's okay that, after multiple tiers, players get a lot stronger and can solo a dungeon boss. I care about the difference within the same tier.
That is hardly a matter in FF-XIV. I can still beat a 400 BLM in 390 if said BLM is slacking off a bit. In WoW, the M raider can brain AFK press is base rotation and I won't stand a chance no matter my skill because of the insane raw stat difference, WITHIN THE SAME TIER(or patch cycle if you will), mind you.

Also, tank soloing stuff only means one thing: dungeon mobs don't hit hard enough.
That has nothing to do with raiding or gear disparity, it has sth to do with SE catering to the low/non skilled community when it comes to dungeons.

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I'm not trying to defend the content, I find it just as uninteresting and not worthwhile as you, just saying that by comparison to the mindless semi-afk NM train, mob grinding requires you to pay a bit more attention.

Aah, now I am seeing where you are coming from.
Well barring the fates having a few void zones / adds (you often can't see ) I have to agree. Chaining is definitely more active than tabbing out waiting for the others to spawn the FATE because as a low level your damage is negligible, so you can't even help if you wanted to.

[MrTharne]

I hope they reprint the first one so I can get it.

Gonna do some reading tonight.

[dope_danny]

Still waiting on SE support to explain where the fuck my copy is.

[Graeham]

Still waiting on SE support to explain where the fuck my copy is.

You're in Europe, right?

The mainstream media isn't really reporting on it much, though there's currently riots going on in France and they're pretty brutal. Lots of roads closed. European copies are being shipped from France, so I fear we have to deal with the effects of the riots and the manufacturing delay that is supposedly an additional issue.

I haven't received a shipping e-mail despite ordering the first hour that pre-orders were made available.

[MrTharne]

You're in Europe, right?

The mainstream media isn't really reporting on it much, though there's currently riots going on in France and they're pretty brutal. Lots of roads closed. European copies are being shipped from France, so I fear we have to deal with the effects of the riots and the manufacturing delay that is supposedly an additional issue.

I haven't received a shipping e-mail despite ordering the first hour that pre-orders were made available.

Might explain why I got mine so fast (could have gotten it on the 27th or 28th but I wasn't home) and it was sent on the 24th. Sorry for the shit show going on in my country.

[dope_danny]

You're in Europe, right?

The mainstream media isn't really reporting on it much, though there's currently riots going on in France and they're pretty brutal. Lots of roads closed. European copies are being shipped from France, so I fear we have to deal with the effects of the riots and the manufacturing delay that is supposedly an additional issue.

I haven't received a shipping e-mail despite ordering the first hour that pre-orders were made available.

Thats what i assume but the complete lack of any mention of it is a bit annoying, like real world stuff happens but is it that hard to go 'oh hey customers who bought X expect a delay'?

[Sorrior]

Still waiting on SE support to explain where the fuck my copy is.

Us here and mines still not shipped..i precharged too

[Graeham]

Having an update e-mail would've been great, of course...but Square Enix tend to drop the ball a lot when it comes to merchandise unfortunately.

[Sorrior]

Having an update e-mail would've been great, of course...but Square Enix tend to drop the ball a lot when it comes to merchandise unfortunately.

Ordered more then a few times no issues till npw..this sucks and i just hope i get it before years end

[Graeham]

Just a case of the waiting game, then...

[Wrecktangle]

boosted in eureka lol? i just joined in on NMs like everyone else was doing and got through it.

I mean you were underleveled and carried on a 2 seater mount from your own posts, that's like the literal definition of boosted lol.

Nothing wrong with it, god knows I wish I was. I'm just saying it makes claiming that it wasn't that bad incredibly misleading lol.

i'll still probably farm NMs for cap each week. i find it more fun than doing the same 2 dungeons every day.

ANYTHING is better than farming the same 2 dungeons. I literally can't stand that they STILL haven't found a better solution for this.

2.2 they changed gearing to focus on raiders forst

How so? Elaborate. I assume you mean the ilvl bumps to make raiding gear the highest ilvl, which isn't a change to focus on raiders, but more a change to fix a broken methodology. The hardest content needs to have the best rewards. That's a universal standard across the industry. Not only that, but you get the same ilvl gear a few weeks later via 24 mans and freebies.

Heavensward they made savage a full on difficulty mode instead of a prestige mode it was originally pitched as

Inaccurate. They didn't do this to focus on raiders, this change was made to focus on lower skilled casuals. They added normal mode and renamed the existing to Savage, not the other way around.

They nerfed crafted gears ilv

When and by how much? Need to cite your examples with as much context as possible.

They obviously are not releasing as many dungeons which could be eureka raids or both

Inaccurate - Nothing to do with raiders. Yoshi very clearly stated this was done to try other types of content. Not only that, it brought Ultimate and Eureka (2 examples), one of which is for casual lower skilled player types and the other for the hardcore high skill. I see nothing indicative of "catering" to raiders with the reduction in dungeon content, and actually would posit that given we only got 2 Ultimates and Eureka got 3 zones, that it very clearly didn't favor raiders.

Item level gaps aren't that big of a deal. You get 390 for tomestones, savage raiders get a measly 10ilvs more.

Noticeable but no where near as ridiculous as in WoW, where a mythic raider will do 2-3 times your output, rendering all your efforts and skill completely useless until you have them "purplz".

For context - I am a heroic raider. (I have killed 2 bosses on mythic because they're actually easier than G'huun Heroic).

• The #1 log for Ret on Mythic Taloc is a mere 26% higher than my log
• The #1 log for Ret on Mythic MOTHER is 65% higher than my log and the only reason it's that high is because there's potential for cheese in the final room
• The #1 log for Ret on Heroic Zul is 22% higher than my log
• The #1 log for Ret on Heroic G'huun is 17% higher than my log

None of those are 200-300% higher. None of them are even HALF of that.

When I first really, really quit WoW I came back at...some point near the end of MoP I think?

And holy fuck. I was a level 90 in entry level epics or whatever and I had a friend in raiding gear and we did some shit together and the motherfucker was doing literally 10x my DPS sometimes. Granted, sometimes that was because of really short fights where he could burst hard and whatnot, but still. Was heavily demotivating.

Terrible example. As an i297 PLD I was doing roughly 1.6K DPS and as an i363 PLD I am doing 4.6K. Top PLD's now (with Alphascape gear) are doing 6k DPS.

That's nearly a 400% difference. Imagine if I was an average tank, who at i297 was only capable of roughly 1k DPS (because this is the majority of pug tanks). Then it's 600%.

You can't compare the output of a fresh max level character to an end game end of expansion geared one. The plus side of your example is that while yes you were demoralized you also probably gained a shit ton of ilvl and output from free drops no one needed.

i have gone into a df run and seen the tank solo bosses in what was current content..

Nobody not even the best geared tank should be soloing bosses in current content at least imo

I've solo'd almost every single boss in every dungeon in SB (pre The Burn). That's not because of ilvl, that's because SE made dungeons trivial intentionally, which I already covered. It's not because the raiders bullied them into ilvl gaps and power creep lol.

[Faroth]

Regarding the Lore Book, I got my notice that the charge was coming and it's now been charged.
I think it's shipped, but not sure. I have a lot of shipments on the way, so not too worried. It'll get here eventually.

[Granyala]

For context - I am a heroic raider. (I have killed 2 bosses on mythic because they're actually easier than G'huun Heroic).

• The #1 log for Ret on Mythic Taloc is a mere 26% higher than my log
• The #1 log for Ret on Mythic MOTHER is 65% higher than my log and the only reason it's that high is because there's potential for cheese in the final room
• The #1 log for Ret on Heroic Zul is 22% higher than my log
• The #1 log for Ret on Heroic G'huun is 17% higher than my log

None of those are 200-300% higher. None of them are even HALF of that.

Now go and compare the performance of a non raider (not even normal) to that of a Mythic raider and get back to me, because that's what I was referring to.
Granted, M+ made the line a wee bit blurry compared to back in the day but the difference between a dude that does organized raiding and s/o that does not raid at all is still rather absurd unless said person grinds M+ like there is no tomorrow.

[Katchii]

Inaccurate. They didn't do this to focus on raiders, this change was made to focus on lower skilled casuals. They added normal mode and renamed the existing to Savage, not the other way around.

From what I remember, originally Savage mode was the completely raw version of the raid (specifically Coil), with no tuning done to bring it into line with what the current ilevel was. Because the fights were initially just completely brutally overtuned compared to what a player could actually output at the time.

I don't remember seeing information on how they designed Savage mode in Heavensward and Stormblood. Do you have a source that says this is how they did it?

For context - I am a heroic raider. (I have killed 2 bosses on mythic because they're actually easier than G'huun Heroic).

• The #1 log for Ret on Mythic Taloc is a mere 26% higher than my log
• The #1 log for Ret on Mythic MOTHER is 65% higher than my log and the only reason it's that high is because there's potential for cheese in the final room
• The #1 log for Ret on Heroic Zul is 22% higher than my log
• The #1 log for Ret on Heroic G'huun is 17% higher than my log

None of those are 200-300% higher. None of them are even HALF of that.

Just to clarify a little, the question was in the context of ilevel difference. For reference, what was your ilevel compared to the ilevel of the people you're comparing yourself to? So the question can be more directly answered.

Terrible example. As an i297 PLD I was doing roughly 1.6K DPS and as an i363 PLD I am doing 4.6K. Top PLD's now (with Alphascape gear) are doing 6k DPS.

That's nearly a 400% difference. Imagine if I was an average tank, who at i297 was only capable of roughly 1k DPS (because this is the majority of pug tanks). Then it's 600%.

You can't compare the output of a fresh max level character to an end game end of expansion geared one. The plus side of your example is that while yes you were demoralized you also probably gained a shit ton of ilvl and output from free drops no one needed.

I don't parse at all in FFXIV, but I have noticed that each point of ilevel has a more profound difference on output than the same difference you see in WoW. I never knew the difference could be THAT huge from ilevel, but more specifically, I'm really more floored by the difference between players of the same ilevel but with differences in skill. The numbers you're quoting indicate it's possible for there to be a at least ~60% different in number output just from skill alone. And in my experience the differences in play style isn't THAT different, it's pretty subtle, since the combo system exists. But those slight differences/ tweaks seem to have a much more profound impact than the ilevel does. That's CRAZY to me.

I've solo'd almost every single boss in every dungeon in SB (pre The Burn). That's not because of ilvl, that's because SE made dungeons trivial intentionally, which I already covered. It's not because the raiders bullied them into ilvl gaps and power creep lol.

I've seen, and done, the same. There are relatively few mechanics that make "soloing" impossible. The only one I've personally encountered so far is Nidhogg's Sable Price ability in The Aery. I stopped trying to solo everything after that, since I'm a tank and can get instant queues anyway, and doing dungeons at that level solo takes WAY longer than just doing it in a group. But since both ilevel AND skill level can have such a profound difference in player output, results can vary considerably.

[Granyala]

Just to clarify a little, the question was in the context of ilevel difference. For reference, what was your ilevel compared to the ilevel of the people you're comparing yourself to? So the question can be more directly answered.

https://de.wowhead.com/daggers#items:0-2
Judging from the dagger that drops of Mother (raiddrop):

LFR: 340
Normal: 355
Heroic: 370
Mythic: 385

A non raider would basically wear 340 gear + a few pieces that happen to Titanforge/Warforge, averaging out at an item level of maybe 355, similar to a normal raider w/o warforges but raiders get forged gear too, so 385 is only the baseline of what Mythic people have.

That would be a minimum 30 item level difference, which is quite a big deal in WoW and that is already assuming some measure of luck on the WF/TF front. taking forged stuff out of the equation completely, the difference would be 45 item levels, WITHIN THE SAME TIER, mind you.

By comparison: in FF-XIV it's i390 vs i400 and only for half a patch at which point non raiders get to upgrade to 400.
Only slot that is and stays higher for savage raiders that manage to kill the 4th boss is the weapon +5 ilvl me thinks, not sure.

[Katchii]

https://de.wowhead.com/daggers#items:0-2
Judging from the dagger that drops of Mother (raiddrop):

LFR: 340
Normal: 355
Heroic: 370
Mythic: 385

A non raider would basically wear 340 gear + a few pieces that happen to Titanforge/Warforge, averaging out at an item level of maybe 355, similar to a normal raider w/o warforges but raiders get forged gear too, so 385 is only the baseline of what Mythic people have.

That would be a minimum 30 item level difference, which is quite a big deal in WoW and that is already assuming some measure of luck on the WF/TF front. taking forged stuff out of the equation completely, the difference would be 45 item levels, WITHIN THE SAME TIER, mind you.

By comparison: in FF-XIV it's i390 vs i400 and only for half a patch at which point non raiders get to upgrade to 400.
Only slot that is and stays higher for savage raiders that manage to kill the 4th boss is the weapon +5 ilvl me thinks, not sure.

Thanks for the info, makes sense.

Still, it's feasible to be a "heroic raider" or a "mythic raider" and not have an ilevel that's in line with what drops in Heroic or Mythic raids. ie It's possible to be doing and clearing Heroic raids with an ilevel below 370...as you kind of HAVE to initially since you need to clear the raids to get that ilevel (war/titanforging notwithstanding as it's pretty impossible to predict given the RNG of that). And give the fact that War/Titanforging exists that can push you into Heroic raid ilevels, it's just easier to know specifically what ilevels are being compared here.

[Granyala]

Thanks for the info, makes sense.

Still, it's feasible to be a "heroic raider" or a "mythic raider" and not have an ilevel that's in line with what drops in Heroic or Mythic raids. ie It's possible to be doing and clearing Heroic raids with an ilevel below 370...as you kind of HAVE to initially since you need to clear the raids to get that ilevel (war/titanforging notwithstanding as it's pretty impossible to predict given the RNG of that). And give the fact that War/Titanforging exists that can push you into Heroic raid ilevels, it's just easier to know specifically what ilevels are being compared here.

Given my past experiences:
not really. While BiS is always elusive, Blizzard has made sure that it doesn't take that long to get the item level up via alternative drops. I'd say a raider in a decent guild (a.k.a.: a guild that actually clears the place in a reasonable amount of time) should get the base item level by mid patch. WoW has a lot more alternative drops and a lot more bosses, getting the item level is probably easier than it is in FF-XIV, where your choices are rather limited and bosses only drop 2 items. In some cases, people may prefer a 390 item due to secondary stats.