1. #42641
    SCH at low levels is hilarious. I once stood there and danced while the fairy kept the tank alive in I think Tam-Tara.

  2. #42642
    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    Speaking on SMN, what I would like to see would be mechanically more similar to BRD. Rather than summon different pets specifically, have it be more channeling the spirit of a given aspect and what you do changes based on that, i.e. rotating stances with different elemental powers whose effects change based on what you want to do and what you've done mechanically. For example, going to a Leviathan aspect and dousing an enemy, then to a Ramuh aspect and electrocuting the fuck outta them. Or perhaps it's two summons at once with opposing elements whose abilities sync together. Debuff with one and slam them with the other, and rotate back.
    I hadn't ever played the newly designed bard until today. I must say I regret not playing it sooner. If they could take something like this and put it on Summoner with more direct damage spells I'd be all for it.

    I don't mind the current Summoner play style, honestly, but it doesn't feel like a Summoner at all.

  3. #42643
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Finally left the Cerberus novice network today. Just went full on cesspit/drama mode. Gonna stick with the mentor crown though.
    I did the same (I'm also on Cerberus EU), I was in novice network due to being a returner but that chat is just pure 100% random chatter. Can't say I noticed much drama but the channel feels as if I joined a random discord that has a closed group of veteran friends that only talk with eachother. I'd even go as far as to say that novices are afraid to even pose a question because of this. Don't think I saw a single novice using it in ~2 weeks that I've been reading it.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  4. #42644
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    SW was a 25man raid though, not an 8man raid. There were enough spots for the 4 healing classes we had back then.
    In FF We are already at the point where people must choose 2/3 healers and as you can see, some peeps are crying for more.
    As you say, we're already in the situation where at least 1 of those healers needs to be benched for 8 man content. Sadly, because of how the AST is designed, other healers need to bring extra tools to the table beyond just healing to be competative. If Squenix add more, then those healers without buffs or extra utility are going to be benched for AST every single time.

    Which is really the issue, the AST is too strong in groups. You said it yourself, AST is a carbon copy of WHM with cards attached. Rather than nerf what makes AST unique, maybe give other healers their own unique tools to compete.

  5. #42645
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    In my experience there's less drama overall in FFXIV...but when there is drama it tends to be the sort where those responsible are insanely stubborn.
    Purely anecdotal, but in WoW the drama I rarely saw was consistent and logical. Guild people dating, bf/gf gets sat, other rages, ninja loot (back in day), loot council favorites, arguing in guild chat over who's right/wrong, etc. etc. Really boring dry stuff.

    In FF14, you gets some fucking WEIRD drama. Just people on this game are absolutely nuts some times. Like, should be institutionalized nuts and they're by far the softest community I've ever played in. I used to roast my buddy's little brother because he played club penguin, but man, that place seems like seasoned criminals compared to FF14. It's just crazy to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I read it. That person acts like a 12 year old trying to be mature and coming up with "mature" arguments and failing miserably. Glad I'll never have the honor of grouping with them.
    Told you it was worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    While I can understand the frustration, the OP of said thread has a point: insults are a no-go.
    But was that REALLY an insult? I mean if someone said that to you, would you lose an iota of sleep over it?

    Honestly I thought it was hilarious. If someone said that to me I'd have laughed my ass off, but I'm also a grown ass adult and not a petulant child who takes offense if a beetle lands on my shoe.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    As you say, we're already in the situation where at least 1 of those healers needs to be benched for 8 man content. Sadly, because of how the AST is designed, other healers need to bring extra tools to the table beyond just healing to be competative. If Squenix add more, then those healers without buffs or extra utility are going to be benched for AST every single time.

    Which is really the issue, the AST is too strong in groups. You said it yourself, AST is a carbon copy of WHM with cards attached. Rather than nerf what makes AST unique, maybe give other healers their own unique tools to compete.
    Re: homogenization - I'm actually ok with homogenization if you can find a way to make it feel different. I'll give an example from my proposed rework.

    All tanks obviously need a few of the same tools:

    Enmity generation
    DPS
    Mitigation
    Utility

    However, you can vary these tools, not necessarily by raw effectiveness, but by how easy to access or expensive they are as well.

    Something like WAR might have the strongest burst AOE DPS (i.e. very powerful 1 button DPS oGCD ability), but it doesn't generate a lot of threat. In order to make sure they hold threat against a BLM who was saving a Triple Flare to burst down adds, he might have to spend some Beast Gauge on an AOE threat move first. A PLD can use his Rage of Halone (from my rework) where it does a line AOE that if they remain in it generates significant threat, but not high DPS. He can then use his Oath to burn on AOE DPS abilities (if he had them), etc.

    In the end both have identical tools, but the order of operations changes and the resource used change (GCD vs. oGCD, Oath/Beast vs. None, etc.).

    Mitigation you can put more passive sustained on the PLD (due to blocks), but give them weaker activated cooldowns, or tie their effectiveness into managing blocks (so Sheltron usage). a DRK might have a a very short 'sustained' shield a la TBN to maintain.

    You can make debuffs more prevalent and give PLD the ability to cleanse a debuff or resurrect. WAR can have a ton of mobility and maybe have the ability to knockback enemies, DRKs can reposition enemies etc.

    I think it can work.

  6. #42646
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Do you guys remember that post I made a while back about the PLD who did nothing but shield lob?

    Well he's back with a new post, and unfortunately he never took me on my offer to teach him how to PLD. It's worth a solid read if you have some popcorn handy.

    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...is-with-people



    Oh I'm an idiot. I must have mixed this post up with another. I thought it said you were like 113 or 114 (so BFA). Disregard!



    I always thought the idea of a BLM being a burst caster with the ability to store instant casts as a mechanic to offset bad swings would be cool. You'd always want to have 1-2 on hand, but never want to be capped kinda thing. I don't think BLM needs the AF swing, Enochian Timer, Umbral Hearts, and Foul to be a compelling/fun job. It is a little overbearing IMO. I'm not entirely sure how I'd rework it tbh as I don't have a ton of experience on it.

    Regarding SMN I really don't like the spellset. It just doesn't feel like what a SMN to me would cast. I don't have enough experience to give any concrete rework thoughts on it though.
    He doesnt need teaching though he has over 250 comms

  7. #42647
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    As you say, we're already in the situation where at least 1 of those healers needs to be benched for 8 man content. Sadly, because of how the AST is designed, other healers need to bring extra tools to the table beyond just healing to be competative. If Squenix add more, then those healers without buffs or extra utility are going to be benched for AST every single time.

    Which is really the issue, the AST is too strong in groups. You said it yourself, AST is a carbon copy of WHM with cards attached. Rather than nerf what makes AST unique, maybe give other healers their own unique tools to compete.
    I'd agree with this, but I don't really subscribe to the whole paradigm where "competitive" is everything. To me "viable" has more meaning. As @Granyala said, there will always be min/maxers who sim out and only accept the absolute highest output classes for content, and I'll agree that with FFXIV 8 man cap that will leave out many of the current classes based on whatever the meta currently is, but there's more to the game than the highest level content and more people than the min/max elitists who don't accept anything other than the meta.

    I agree with @Wrecktangle in regards to homogenization, to a degree. Being able to do the same job is pretty important in games like this, to assuage the issue you're referring to, but that doesn't mean it has to be or feel the same when it comes to game play. Giving the classes within the same role the same basic tool kit but altering how or when the tools are activated, and the overall flow of the class would go a long way in giving the classes that feeling of individuality.. But I'm under no delusion that it will ever be perfect and that there will ever be 100% parity between all classes within the same role, as the class "flavor" kind of dictates that it needs to BE a little different to FEEL different. So there will always be a "meta" but that doesn't mean they can't add more flavor to the game just because the meta exists. It's always changing, sometimes just based what encounter you're doing, so having more options and increasing the "fun" factor is a good thing.

  8. #42648
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You can make debuffs more prevalent and give PLD the ability to cleanse a debuff or resurrect. WAR can have a ton of mobility and maybe have the ability to knockback enemies, DRKs can reposition enemies etc.

    I think it can work.
    This is the kind of thing I'd go for.

    Giving tanks a similar basic toolkit so they can perform the role, then add some incomparable skills unique to them. You can't compare having a cleanse to a knockback, those are two completely separate tools each with their own applications. And that's great - It gives tanks clear identities, while also ensuring they're still capable tanks in their own rights.

    DOTA does this kind of thing really well. Where heroes like Vengeful Spirit, Crystal Maiden and Witch Doctor all fill the same spot on their team, a supporting role where they assist their teammates in getting kills, keeping them out of harms way and providing extra utility through their items. They all bring skills unique to them that simply can't be compared to the rest of the cast.

    That's where I'd like FF14 to head with regards to their tanks and healers. They're all completely capable of performing their roles, but they all have unique tools and flavour that sets them apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'd agree with this, but I don't really subscribe to the whole paradigm where "competitive" is everything. To me "viable" has more meaning. As @Granyala said, there will always be min/maxers who sim out and only accept the absolute highest output classes for content, and I'll agree that with FFXIV 8 man cap that will leave out many of the current classes based on whatever the meta currently is, but there's more to the game than the highest level content and more people than the min/max elitists who don't accept anything other than the meta.
    Even outside of Min/Maxing people are usually quick to catch on if one Job is vastly more powerful than another. Right now, AST can do everything a WHM can and more. The AST being a capable healer isn't the problem, it's the "and more" it brings that pushes it over the top.

    The core of this isn't simply nerf AST or buff WHM and SCH, no. It's "Let's give everyone some more cool stuff!" If you want an AST for cards, SCH for Chain Strat, Fey Wind and a WHM for whatever cool stuff they bring is then you've got a choice to make when forming your group. Right now, WHM has lots of personal cooldowns and massive healing potential, but no cool stuff for the rest of their group. Simply being the mathematical best at healing isn't a strong enough niche for FF14, where group DPS tends to matter oh so much more.

  9. #42649
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    19,023
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Finally left the Cerberus novice network today.
    Heh, I can imagine. I have public chats disabled since TBC.
    Stupid spammers.

  10. #42650
    Generally the first thing I do in any Online game is turn off public chat channels. The GIFT should really just be made a law by this point.

  11. #42651
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Even outside of Min/Maxing people are usually quick to catch on if one Job is vastly more powerful than another. Right now, AST can do everything a WHM can and more. The AST being a capable healer isn't the problem, it's the "and more" it brings that pushes it over the top.

    The core of this isn't simply nerf AST or buff WHM and SCH, no. It's "Let's give everyone some more cool stuff!" If you want an AST for cards, SCH for Chain Strat, Fey Wind and a WHM for whatever cool stuff they bring is then you've got a choice to make when forming your group. Right now, WHM has lots of personal cooldowns and massive healing potential, but no cool stuff for the rest of their group. Simply being the mathematical best at healing isn't a strong enough niche for FF14, where group DPS tends to matter oh so much more.
    As someone who doesn't even pay attention to the min/max meta stuff I'm asking out of ignorance; are the buffs an AST brings THAT powerful? I see WHM and SCH all over the place in the duty finder dungeons I do and in the few party finder groups I join for the the Extreme fights, I don't have any interest in Savage content so don't know what the group make up is for that stuff. I also don't notice much difference in smoothness or clear speed of dungeon groups with any of the three healers. The variability I do see is almost entirely based on the skill and gearing of the group as a whole, with the tank pacing being the most impactful variable for sure.

    I just don't see the huge variance in output of a group with an AST vs a group with a WHM or SCH. Sure, an AST can add some DPS to the group, but a well played WHM adds great utility and is flat out just better at healing with it's kit, not to mention can help melt groups of adds with Holy. I don't know SCH well enough to comment on what exactly it's strengths and weaknesses are but they're good enough to clear all the content I do at least (as I said, I don't do Savage so don't know how they're represented there) without any noticeable difference in speed or smoothness that can be solely attributed to the fact we got a SCH rather than an AST.

    Classes having strengths and weaknesses are part of what give them character, so long as they're able to do the core parts of the job. AST having a little more utility is fine with me due to them having more to deal with to keep that utility going in a dungeon, paying enough attention to the fight all while pulling cards and managing them on cooldown, applying them appropriately, swapping, etc... it IS more than the WHM needs to deal with. Not sure how it rates up there with SCH though as I said, no experience there to draw from.

    I will wholeheartedly agree that the classes could use more "cool stuff" to use, and not just more buttons to press that do more of what they already do, I mean actual meaningful abilities that affect HOW the class is played.

  12. #42652
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    As someone who doesn't even pay attention to the min/max meta stuff I'm asking out of ignorance; are the buffs an AST brings THAT powerful? I see WHM and SCH all over the place in the duty finder dungeons I do and in the few party finder groups I join for the the Extreme fights, I don't have any interest in Savage content so don't know what the group make up is for that stuff. I also don't notice much difference in smoothness or clear speed of dungeon groups with any of the three healers. The variability I do see is almost entirely based on the skill and gearing of the group as a whole, with the tank pacing being the most impactful variable for sure.

    I just don't see the huge variance in output of a group with an AST vs a group with a WHM or SCH. Sure, an AST can add some DPS to the group, but a well played WHM adds great utility and is flat out just better at healing with it's kit, not to mention can help melt groups of adds with Holy. I don't know SCH well enough to comment on what exactly it's strengths and weaknesses are but they're good enough to clear all the content I do at least (as I said, I don't do Savage so don't know how they're represented there) without any noticeable difference in speed or smoothness that can be solely attributed to the fact we got a SCH rather than an AST.

    Classes having strengths and weaknesses are part of what give them character, so long as they're able to do the core parts of the job. AST having a little more utility is fine with me due to them having more to deal with to keep that utility going in a dungeon, paying enough attention to the fight all while pulling cards and managing them on cooldown, applying them appropriately, swapping, etc... it IS more than the WHM needs to deal with. Not sure how it rates up there with SCH though as I said, no experience there to draw from.

    I will wholeheartedly agree that the classes could use more "cool stuff" to use, and not just more buttons to press that do more of what they already do, I mean actual meaningful abilities that affect HOW the class is played.
    I picked up a consistent 220 dps having our WHM swap to AST. Roughly a 4.5% DPS increase for me. We picked up a 1250 rDPS as a team, a little over 3% overall.

    Personally speaking (from a raiding standpoint) AST is king here. However, you noted dungeons above, WHM having Holy is more powerful than any card an AST can pull.

  13. #42653
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    19,023
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'd agree with this, but I don't really subscribe to the whole paradigm where "competitive" is everything. To me "viable" has more meaning. As @Granyala said, there will always be min/maxers who sim out and only accept the absolute highest output classes for content, and I'll agree that with FFXIV 8 man cap that will leave out many of the current classes based on whatever the meta currently is, but there's more to the game than the highest level content and more people than the min/max elitists who don't accept anything other than the meta.
    Problem is: not only the elite does that. You have countless of the "wannabe hardcore" crowd that often employ these "rules" way more harshly than the actual elite that can judge whether sth is viable or not.

    Seen it countless times in WoW, raid leaders making a fuss about crap they read on EJ despite it not mattering at all in the grand scheme.
    While I don't think a gameDEVs design should be hamstrung by this behavior, they do have to take it into account somewhat.
    @Wrecktangle: ideally I'd love for classes to achieve X through truly different means and concepts but it just doesn't work that way in practice.
    All healers need castable AoE. All healers need strong Single target ability, all healers need some form of cooldown (I already feel it pretty badly that, as a WHM I do not have any way to actually MITIGATE damage taken by the group) to do their jobs because we only have 2 healing slots. There can't be a paladin that has no AoE to speak of, there can't be a druid that almost exclusively relies on HoTs. Such a design works well when you can take 5 or 6 healers into your raid but not two. If you only have two, they basically need to have the same tools available or encounter design is absurdly limited by "making all possible combos work".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I picked up a consistent 220 dps having our WHM swap to AST. Roughly a 4.5% DPS increase for me. We picked up a 1250 rDPS as a team, a little over 3% overall.
    Sounds about right to me.
    Min maxing to that degree only really matters in savage raiding when you push for parses.
    All healers are viable, groups killed God Kefka with WHMs on board plenty of times.

    If you cannot hit an enrage, it is typically NOT because you do not have [combo], it is because you are either undergeared of failing somehow.

    Not sure about Ultimate though. Can that even be done w/o the perfect Meta?

  14. #42654
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    9,527
    Well, it seems like the servers died...

  15. #42655
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Well, it seems like the servers died...
    nothing like trying to get last minute clears for the week and puff
    someone else might have gotten it wrong.

  16. #42656
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I picked up a consistent 220 dps having our WHM swap to AST. Roughly a 4.5% DPS increase for me. We picked up a 1250 rDPS as a team, a little over 3% overall.

    Personally speaking (from a raiding standpoint) AST is king here. However, you noted dungeons above, WHM having Holy is more powerful than any card an AST can pull.
    That's a fairly good impact, thanks for the information. Another question then, based discussion we've had/ that have been had on this forum; how profound of an impact does that 3% have on you being able to complete the content? We've said on this forum that being able to "do the dance," so to speak, is significantly more important than gearing and damage, except on cutting edge content where you're attempting it practically under geared to begin with. Meaning, would having an WHM and SCH there as opposed to having a AST outright prevent you from clearing?

    I'm not denying the advantage, just calling into question how much of an advantage it is based on past discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Problem is: not only the elite does that. You have countless of the "wannabe hardcore" crowd that often employ these "rules" way more harshly than the actual elite that can judge whether sth is viable or not.

    Seen it countless times in WoW, raid leaders making a fuss about crap they read on EJ despite it not mattering at all in the grand scheme.
    While I don't think a gameDEVs design should be hamstrung by this behavior, they do have to take it into account somewhat.
    @Wrecktangle: ideally I'd love for classes to achieve X through truly different means and concepts but it just doesn't work that way in practice.
    All healers need castable AoE. All healers need strong Single target ability, all healers need some form of cooldown (I already feel it pretty badly that, as a WHM I do not have any way to actually MITIGATE damage taken by the group) to do their jobs because we only have 2 healing slots. There can't be a paladin that has no AoE to speak of, there can't be a druid that almost exclusively relies on HoTs. Such a design works well when you can take 5 or 6 healers into your raid but not two. If you only have two, they basically need to have the same tools available or encounter design is absurdly limited by "making all possible combos work".
    True, but I really only see this in the higher end content that's dominated by the "elitists" whether they be true elitists or the wannabe hardcore variety, and they can be seen a mile away (IMO), and therefore can be avoided fi you're not wanting to deal with that mentality. I don't do Savage or Ultimate, which is where I know this is the most prevalent, but based on discussions throughout MMO's, that level of content is only seen by a small minority of players.

    I'm not discounting the impact some of these balancing issues will have at that level, I'm just highlighting that the disparity really only has an impact AT that level of play, in which case it's going to be impossible to ever rectify because there will always be a top performer based on sims and whatnot. For the vast majority of content and players I doubt you'd find anyone that really can notice or quantify the performance difference. And again, even if they COULD quantify it, based on how heavily this game relies on mechanics, does that difference in performance actually result in lower clear rates for the majority of players who aren't doing the content on the bleeding edge of progression?

    Again, not saying there isn't a problem, just trying to bring the problem into perspective of a super casual player who doesn't play the content where that level of performance / min maxing is required. IMO, being able to balance within 3% of each other is pretty damned good.

    Sounds about right to me.
    Min maxing to that degree only really matters in savage raiding when you push for parses.
    All healers are viable, groups killed God Kefka with WHMs on board plenty of times.

    If you cannot hit an enrage, it is typically NOT because you do not have [combo], it is because you are either undergeared of failing somehow.

    Not sure about Ultimate though. Can that even be done w/o the perfect Meta?
    Just wanted to highlight this again, that the level in min maxing being discussed here isn't necessary except in that high end content that the majority of players won't ever see/ don't even participate in.

  17. #42657
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    19,023
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm just highlighting that the disparity really only has an impact AT that level of play, in which case it's going to be impossible to ever rectify because there will always be a top performer based on sims and whatnot.
    At least someone gets it.

    I agree. The reason why you don't see any of that in the majority of the content is because said content is undertuned to a ridiculous degree, so that virtually everyone and their cat (pun intended) can clear it.

    You really only see that kind of mindset emerge when the game actually starts pushing back. The harder it pushes, the more people will prefer FOTM and bitch at people that don't conform.

    BUT. Yes there is a but. You cannot design and balance around freeloot content. You cannot breed playstyles that work in freeloot content but fall apart in the more challenging areas, because ultimately, why do I play WHM? Because I like the aesthetic and how it plays. Same would go for the playstyles you could make viable in easy content only.

    It would be a shitty feeling, having to abandon a playstyle you love and adopt one that feels "meh" because you would severely hinder your raid group. Trust me... I've been there.
    COP shadow *cough*...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Another question then, based discussion we've had/ that have been had on this forum; how profound of an impact does that 3% have on you being able to complete the content?
    It really depends. On paper, it isn't much. Completely irrelevant when you farm a boss and as I said: SE does not tune bosses around the perfect Meta. They see to it that all kinds of compositions stand a decent chance at succeeding.

    However, when you are progressing on a new savage boss, you can have many a close call sub 5% wipes to the enrage. 3% free damage feel pretty huge at that point, when you're still struggling to get errors out of play. It can make the difference between 1-2 more mistakes being able to be made and still kill the boss before it plasters the arena with your guts.

  18. #42658
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    IMO, being able to balance within 3% of each other is pretty damned good.
    To be clear, that's not balance off by 3%. The job brings 1250 DPS extra compared to it's alernatives, which just happens to be 3% more total raid DPS. After a quick skim through on FFlogs, most healers average around 2.2-2.3k personal DPS in Alphascape Savage, so that 1250 extra DPS is a total of 50% more DPS than the average healer. That's a significant perfomance jump compared to the competition.

    On the higher end of the spectrum, healers are hitting 4k personal DPS, so that's a 25% improvement over the others. Still very significant gains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Sure, an AST can add some DPS to the group, but a well played WHM adds great utility and is flat out just better at healing with it's kit, not to mention can help melt groups of adds with Holy.
    That extra healing is, largely, irrelevent though. It's never about how much healing you can do, only about how much you need to do. Unlike DPS, healing is limited by how much raid damage you have coming in, if it's greater than your theoretical max HPS then you're heading for a wipe, if not you're capable of doing the content. It's a very binary stat check in that regard.

    These two points together are why people prefer AST for raiding. They bring a lot of extra DPS, the exact amount of which will only scale upwards with gear, while also having enough healing throughput not to cause wipes.

    Obviously this changes dramatically outside of organised raiding, but I hope it helps answer your original question. Yes, AST buffs are indeed that powerful. Do you require an AST for raiding? No, of course not, but if you have the option of an AST or any other healer the AST wins every single time.

    Which is why I've been advocating spreading some buffs around to the other healers, let them bring as much to your group as an AST does. It doesn't have to be direct damage buffs either, none standard Utility like being able to invulnrable to the next hit on your raid could be a game changer. Being able to res without the Weakness debuff would be a godsend for progression, if weaker on farm content. There's lots of creative ways to add indirect power to underperformers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    There can't be a paladin that has no AoE to speak of, there can't be a druid that almost exclusively relies on HoTs. Such a design works well when you can take 5 or 6 healers into your raid but not two.
    There's no reason such a design can't work. You can have all of the tools you listed while healing primarilly through HoT's, there's nothing that goes fundamentally against them from a design perspective. Exclusive single target healers would struggle in 4 man content, but would most likely be very in demand should needing a full time tank healer ever be a thing.

    My WoW guild did 10 man raids with a Holy Paladin and a Druid healer because both covered each others major weaknesses, we had very little issue completely smashing our way through everything from Kara right to ICC with it. Two highly specialised healers worked out better for us than having three more generalised ones. Anecdotal to be sure, but we were certainly successful with it - We were the first guild on our server to clear Kara, as well as the first to get the 10 man mount from Ulduar and the first to get the Tribute to Dedicated Insanity achivement.

    Disc Priest and Resto Druid would have worked too, as would Paladin and Holy Priest, or Shaman. Healing is a team effort, healers that compliment each other well allows more diverse healing classes and styles to be added without changing the core experience.

  19. #42659
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    19,023
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    There's no reason such a design can't work. You can have all of the tools you listed while healing primarilly through HoT's, there's nothing that goes fundamentally against them from a design perspective.
    Uhuh, I do want to see you doing Archangel on Kefka with a HoT and a single target healer.
    No.. scrap that... I don't, because such a mechanic would simply not work. Your two specialized healers would need too much time to top people up.
    Just one example of a mechanic that SE would have to get rid of.

    Would it be a better game if encounter design was more limited but healers more unique? I honestly do not know.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    That extra healing is, largely, irrelevent though.
    It's not as clear cut as that though.
    Barring instagibs, a healer capable of a higher output can negate more mistakes. That's why WHM is still liked on progression. It's only when the farm phase hits that our ability to push more healing is no longer needed and most WHMs just switch over to AST because now people are pushing for speedkills and E-Peen logs.

    Also, on progression fights, there is no way I can push 2 - 2.5K. There is far too much healing required by my group and my mana is constrained (no bard ._.).
    1.2 - 1.5K is a more realistic figure.

    So in that case, an AST would basically double my p+r DPS, provided I was able to achieve the same values in personal DPS.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2018-10-02 at 05:33 AM.

  20. #42660
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Not sure about Ultimate though. Can that even be done w/o the perfect Meta?
    Yes. UCoB was a little less friendly than UwU, but still possible, just harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    That's a fairly good impact, thanks for the information. Another question then, based discussion we've had/ that have been had on this forum; how profound of an impact does that 3% have on you being able to complete the content? We've said on this forum that being able to "do the dance," so to speak, is significantly more important than gearing and damage, except on cutting edge content where you're attempting it practically under geared to begin with. Meaning, would having an WHM and SCH there as opposed to having a AST outright prevent you from clearing?
    Purely from my anecdotal experience it doesn't matter for first 2 bosses of a tier, but extremely useful on last 2, where first clears are literally within milliseconds of enrage and because of how powerful the gear is from those fights it's makes the early clear much more valuable not to mention obvious morale boost.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •