1. #42841
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Yeah, that thread is an absolute mess.
    Funny enough, that thread seems to have disappeared entirely. I don’t have a direct link to it and didn’t see it on first 4-5 pages.

    Edit: Posted too soon. Looks like it got bumped to front page as I went looking for it.
    Last edited by Kazela; 2018-10-16 at 05:38 PM.

  2. #42842
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I've done that before, and it's functional, but I've done the dungeons so many times at this point the prospect just holds zero appeal. At least with PotD/ HoH the party make-up can be different, it's a little different each time, it can go by quickly, you get tomestones, etc... so it just doesn't have the same mind numbingly boring feel that dungeon grinding does.
    That's what I meant... a pre-made HoH group to just keep running it. Granted, you don't have the variety of different party make up, but if you're looking to fast track xp, I would assume it's the best route.

  3. #42843
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    That's what I meant... a pre-made HoH group to just keep running it. Granted, you don't have the variety of different party make up, but if you're looking to fast track xp, I would assume it's the best route.
    Ah, sorry. Yeah I'll give that a try, hadn't really thought about a pre-made HoH group.

  4. #42844
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Ah, sorry. Yeah I'll give that a try, hadn't really thought about a pre-made HoH group.
    Used to see them often in PotD where groups would agree they were just going for requirements to move to next floor. No extra pomices, no extra treasure chests, just most efficient run for xp. I figured HoH would see the same develop, but I've not kept up with it since I didn't really have additional jobs I was really pushing to get leveled.

  5. #42845
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Funny enough, that thread seems to have disappeared entirely. I don’t have a direct link to it and didn’t see it on first 4-5 pages.

    Edit: Posted too soon. Looks like it got bumped to front page as I went looking for it.
    It's locked now, thankfully.

  6. #42846
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, if I could choose I'd pick, "More engaging healing" over "Healers doing DPS" but that's what we've got.

    Then again, there were times when I'd DPS as a healer in WoW, too. Either because it was progression and already tight on DPS checks but healing wasn't too bad (OP Cata Resto Druid) or it was trivial content and I could do absurd damage sometimes. (Legion Holy Pally) So who knows. I guess it's not completely a XIV thing.
    Honestly, this has been happening in WoW for as long as I've played it - And I started way back in Vanilla with a Paladin. I'd get in there and auto attack at every opportunity, even throw in a HoJ or a JoL/JoW if the situation called for it. My guild constantly insisted that Priests wand when they got the chance too, so I assume it's been going back even longer than just WoW.

    I mean, it makes sense. If you've got nothing to heal, you might as well do some damage if you can, otherwise you're stood around doing nothing worthwhile. Plus I find just standing back and watching the action unfold without me to be quite dull, I expect others feel the same too.

    I would ask how you'd go about making healing more engaging though? Just adding in more damage or random AoE's and such would be adding more of a burden to healers, without any extra engagement. Adding in more mechanics is one way, though given how healers are required to function, locking away important skills behind potentially clunky or gated mechanics could be more of a hinderance than a help. More Mob mechanics is another, but those will also affect Tanks and DPS too to a greater or lesser degree.

  7. #42847
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    As for POTD and HOH...the queues aren't too bad on Aether during the busier hours. Some of the stuff that drops from the hoard chests sells for a decent amount these days too.

  8. #42848
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Used to see them often in PotD where groups would agree they were just going for requirements to move to next floor. No extra pomices, no extra treasure chests, just most efficient run for xp. I figured HoH would see the same develop, but I've not kept up with it since I didn't really have additional jobs I was really pushing to get leveled.
    On Shiva its almost completely dead, not hyperbole but actually dead. The most players i have seen around the npcs outside is maybe 6 in the last few months. The ques take as much as 45 minutes or more and what few groups i've gotten have all been people doing it for the first time getting achievements.

    Maybe they are in eureka, maybe like me the last few major updates they geared out their mains i tome/raid gear and called it good but the drop off is significant while Quarrymill is still so packed you can have trouble loading all the players in on PS4.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    As for POTD and HOH...the queues aren't too bad on Aether during the busier hours. Some of the stuff that drops from the hoard chests sells for a decent amount these days too.
    Thats a point though, maybe with HoH being totally dead on my server the drops are worth something. Just got a Sophia Barding last night from a run, after a 35 minute queue that is.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  9. #42849
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    If I weren't on Aether, I'd offer to team up with you...I've got a fair amount of POTD and HOH ahead of me since I want to use both to get my remaining DoW jobs from 60 - 70.

    Just NIN, DRG, MNK and BRD to go.

    Hopefully I can get it done by the time 4.5 swings around...then it's a matter of getting my crafters/gatherers up to 70. >_>

  10. #42850
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    There's speculation that the moderation team deliberately leaves controversial threads open so that they can fulfill whatever quotas they have been set instead of simply closing down problematic threads. Furthermore, context is often ignored and some people have been banned for using swear words - not aimed at anyone in particular - that are used within FFXIV itself.
    Interesting. Good insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It was, but I still kinda liked it. Always felt like I was taking risks and really had to be careful while squeezing out as much damage as possible between needing to pick people up.

    Now you can just kinda do it all at once and it's not nearly as interesting. Wish there was some middle ground there.
    Agreed. As echo'd by many here, Cleric stance in theory isn't a bad thing, it just suffered from an awful implementation. The current one is better, but not in a meaningful fashion, it's just another dull binary key press now, like 90%+ of the oGCDs in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I honestly prefer being able to DPS on the fly now without having to switch stances. It reduces risk and encourages more people to do it. I do wish that they made it more of a decision though, where DPS spells cost more or something so there is an actual decision being made when casting the spells, but I don't mind the current situation that much.

    Old Cleric Stance was just too clunky, current situation isn't great, but IMO it's better than it was.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    While i agree with you somehow i think the majority of healers would be happier if if they straight removed all dps abilities from healer jobs. I have the feeling that especially in this game, in my experience of course, people who i played with dont just want to bother with it. I usually dont care but the times i seen an argument about that while i was in groups ect. is uncountable
    This is a hotly debated point. I've seen valiant defenders of both paradigms. Speaking personally I could care less about healers doing DPS. It's always about effort. If a Healer had other shit to do instead of DPS I'd support that easily. If the current paradigm is to reign king I wish they'd make DPSing as a healer a little bit more exciting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    That would explain why threads like the recent request for non-binary character options and the subsequent shitshow it turned into (to the surprise of few if any, I dare suspect).
    That thread made me sick. Look I don't care how you associate or what gender you bang behind closed doors. But being triggered or having anxiety/depression over not being able to pick a non-gender when the game already goes full retard trying to gender neutral all text just sends me full tilt. Maybe I'm insensitive, but it seems like such a ridiculous non issue to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I would ask how you'd go about making healing more engaging though? Just adding in more damage or random AoE's and such would be adding more of a burden to healers, without any extra engagement. Adding in more mechanics is one way, though given how healers are required to function, locking away important skills behind potentially clunky or gated mechanics could be more of a hinderance than a help. More Mob mechanics is another, but those will also affect Tanks and DPS too to a greater or lesser degree.
    I made a rather robust post on this one time.

    1) Balance healers around an MP pool. Once it's gone it's gone. No more infinite MP bullshit like we have now. You can keep specific job related stuff like cards/lillies and have it tie into their oGCDs. Have them work out effects like reducing oGCD cooldowns, restoring MP, making next spell cost no MP or with no cooldown, etc.

    Something like consume a lily to make your next healing spell cost no MP and not trigger the GCD. That right there carves out an efficient burst healing niche. You'd want to avoid capping lilies, but you wouldn't want to be caught with none during a mistake/high burst damage phase.

    2) Nerf heals considerably. I'd tune different spells to different efficiency ratios/cast speeds. I.e. fast, powerful, but expensive heal, slower, cheaper, but weak/moderate heal, etc. This way healers are presented with options that change based on how a fight progresses. I'd make it so a healer can stabilize a HP pool, but it'd be an expensive endeavor. Then I'd load them up with utility and cooldowns to help manage their MP, healing, etc.

    3) Shift encounter damage from slow high burst to a consistent steady drain. I'd also retool tanks with better mitigation (not just passive garbage) that allows them to help with that.

    4) Just a third point, I'd remove a lot of the DPS synergy between jobs. Even Astrologian. Nothing annoys me more than having my DPS be controlled by other players.

    I'd also add in more DPS checks, not with hard/pass fails, but ones that just create consequences. Failing a DPS check removes space from the arena, gives buff a pro-rated damage buff (thus stressing/tanks/heals/MP), causes debuffs, spawns adds, etc.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2018-10-17 at 12:46 PM.

  11. #42851
    About to win a roll on the last thing i need from Omegascape and PS4 closed the game to force a update to fix the messaging issue that wiped my harddrive completely. 200 games and 2 terabytes of data to redownload/install. Check on PC and nope, even though i won the item didn't get it because the update crashed the game before the loot was in my inventory.

    Actual footage of me right now:
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  12. #42852
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I don't mind, terribly, when people want to be "lazy" because they're just over the content and are doing the bare minimum to clear it, but obviously have the capability to do more...but just aren't. So long as they're not being a detriment to the group and we're going smoothly, I don't tend to get bent out of shape over it. The people I hear screaming the loudest, and who bother me the most, are those who simply refuse to play to the full potential of the class because they are filling some RP role and their head canon for their character just doesn't want them to cast DPS spells or whatever. You know, the "you don't pay my sub" type of stuff, I play a healer to heal mentality. As I said, it has nothing to do with performance, per se, it's just completely wasted potential. A DPS wouldn't be able to get by with completely wasted GCDs, and neither would a tank, so why should a healer? Outside of a few special cases where the healer is saving mana for a fight they don't know or are deliberately being cautious, there's really no game play/ mechanical/ performance based reason why they SHOULD'T be casting.



    I agree, I'd rather have healing itself be more involved, but then balancing becomes a huge nightmare, like in WoW where as gear levels increase the healing output gets so crazy high that you're back to where you started initially. I'm just not sure there's a way to get away from healers casting DPS spells to fill the gaps because they just don't need to cast a healing spell every GCD.
    IMO I don't really see 'being lazy' as any better than gimping yourself due to RP reasons. Neither should be done in duty finder.

    I don't expect perfect rotations and 0 mistakes in duty finder, but if you queue to play with others you owe them an honest effort IMO. Whether that means doing your best in a dungeon or putting aside your RP and using all your spells effectively.

  13. #42853
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    The people who claim to not be able to use abilities in a dungeon because of 'RP' are almost certainly trolling...and likely aren't even role-players to begin with.

  14. #42854
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    IMO I don't really see 'being lazy' as any better than gimping yourself due to RP reasons. Neither should be done in duty finder.

    I don't expect perfect rotations and 0 mistakes in duty finder, but if you queue to play with others you owe them an honest effort IMO. Whether that means doing your best in a dungeon or putting aside your RP and using all your spells effectively.
    The difference for me is the mentality behind it, one is just ambivalence towards the content not an active decision to be contrarian/ detrimental to the group and the other is a purposeful choice to be a detriment to the group, The end result may be similar, but one is VERY easily fixed, whereas trying to fix the other is a monumental effort that, in my experience, doesn't end well and usually doesn't change a damned thing.

    That said, in my experience, someone who's just over it/ ambivalent and not doing their best is still doing respectable damage /doing their full rotation, it just may not be as fast or as efficient as it could be. I honestly can't tell the difference between a player like this and someone who's actually trying but is just learning the class, most efficient rotations/ abilities to use, etc...

    As I've said before though, the only time I can actually tell when someone is "bad" is when it's egregiously bad and their actions are noticeable even without a parser. Ice mages, hard casting red mages, Summoners who don't use Bahamut, Monks who stay in one place, tanks that don't combo or use their AoE threat tools, healers who do nothing in between healing spells, etc... A "lazy" person may just be doing sub par DPS, but they're still going through all the motions in such a way to not be noticeable without a parser. The other folks are easy to spot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    The people who claim to not be able to use abilities in a dungeon because of 'RP' are almost certainly trolling...and likely aren't even role-players to begin with.
    It was just an ass-pull example really, I've never seen anyone go full RP to that extent, but I've seen plenty of folks who say "this is just how I like to play," "you don't pay my sub!" "You're not my real mom!" and shit like that.

    To be fair, most "ice mages" I've encountered are just....uneducated...about how Black Mage is intended to work and just like having full MP and don't realize that the MP drain/refill mechanic is the Black Mage MO. Hard casting Red Mages, same deal, they're just folks who just don't quite get how dual casting works. A few pointers, a lot of patience, and encouragement can usually fix those issues.

    I honestly can't wrap my head around how some people have such a hard time getting the class mechanics to "click" but it happens, one of my FC's best White Mages just.could.not.understand how Red Mage was intended to work, the whole dual casting "cast short cast time spell first to proc dual casting THEN cast your hard hitting spell instantly" didn't register with him.

  15. #42855
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    The people who claim to not be able to use abilities in a dungeon because of 'RP' are almost certainly trolling...and likely aren't even role-players to begin with.
    Only semi-related, but thought I'd share:

    A friend of mine doesn't fully RP, but he does have character concepts for his various alts (yep, alts even in XIV and he kept 3 up for a while. Just 2 now and one is sort of just MSQ upkeep not so much gearing).

    His original main was a warrior and he has him 100% no-magic user. So he has leveled up non-magic classes. I forget how far along he is on gladiator, but he never took the paladin quest and when it was changed he doesn't equip the job crystal. So he's sloooowly leveling up as a gladiator for that class. Of course, he doesn't run roulettes as a gladiator or do anything in a group outside the FC as such. It's more of a challenge in being stubborn for him to slowly climb that hill. Plus it can make a fun/hilarious challenge in some instances for us as a group, so we do kind of have fun with it.

    But again, he's not doing that in roulettes and with random people. He knows he's attempting a very sub-optimal challenge, so he isn't going to foister that on other players.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2018-10-17 at 02:33 PM.

  16. #42856
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Only semi-related, but thought I'd share:

    A friend of mine doesn't fully RP, but he does have character concepts for his various alts (yep, alts even in XIV and he kept 3 up for a while. Just 2 now and one is sort of just MSQ upkeep not so much gearing).

    His original main was a warrior and he has him 100% no-magic user. So he has leveled up non-magic classes. I forget how far along he is on gladiator, but he never took the paladin quest and when it was changed he doesn't equip the job crystal. So he's sloooowly leveling up as a gladiator for that class. Of course, he doesn't run roulettes as a gladiator or do anything in a group outside the FC as such. It's more of a challenge in being stubborn for him to slowly climb that hill. Plus it can make a fun/hilarious challenge in some instances for us as a group, so we do kind of have fun with it.

    But again, he's not doing that in roulettes and with random people. He knows he's attempting a very sub-optimal challenge, so he isn't going to foister that on other players.
    Yeah no harm in that as long as he's not forcing it on randoms. I similarly have an alt that has summoner as the main job but I RP arcanist, but when I do content I play summoner to the best of my flawed ability. Sounds like your friend is handling this correctly by not dragging random people into it with deliberately sub optimal play.

    On the other hand, I remember a couple times in dun scaith, a level 60 raid, getting thaumaturges and thinking 'what the hell.'

  17. #42857
    I remember seeing a post on Reddit about a Pugilist joining a group (can't remember if it was a raid or a trial), but they let him stay when they saw his name was Hamon Holyfist and he was glam'ed like the NPC.

  18. #42858
    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    I remember seeing a post on Reddit about a Pugilist joining a group (can't remember if it was a raid or a trial), but they let him stay when they saw his name was Hamon Holyfist and he was glam'ed like the NPC.
    I've seen him in 24 man in Heavensward! Everyone got a kick out of it.

  19. #42859
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    That thread made me sick. Look I don't care how you associate or what gender you bang behind closed doors. But being triggered or having anxiety/depression over not being able to pick a non-gender when the game already goes full retard trying to gender neutral all text just sends me full tilt. Maybe I'm insensitive, but it seems like such a ridiculous non issue to me.
    Nicest way I can put it: There’s far more important/valuable things to spend development resources on.

  20. #42860
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Nicest way I can put it: There’s far more important/valuable things to spend development resources on.
    Completely agree.

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