1. #43521
    Living Memory Sesshomaru's Avatar
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    Being the moron that I am, this weekend I suddenly decided to farm all the Atma for all of my non-completed Zeta weapons so I can skip that phase should I ever wish to complete more than the 2 which I already have (SMN/WAR).
    Spoiler: 

    Southern Thanalan and Lower La Noscea were the worst one in terms of gain per hour after finding about my stupidity.
    Because I could not fathom as to why after two hours in South Shroud wouldn't yield me a single Atma.
    I've done the completed Zeta line twice. I went to South Shroud to farm the Atma there.
    That's when it hit me; I am at the wrong location. There are no Atma corresponding to South Shroud.

    Now, some of you might have noticed in regards to the image that I have 8/12 Atma at 7 and 4/12 at 8. That's because I did an "/isearch zenith" before I began and found a total of 7 Zenith weapons which I had in my armory and weapon retainer. I counted at the start and found the number to be correct. After I had completed 8/12 areas, I decided to be thorough and count all ARR jobs. I came to 10. Prior, I had already completed 2, which means I had 8 left.

    "8? But my count was at 7? How is that possible?" After quickly reading through the log, I went with the command to find Yoshimitsu (NIN relic).
    None.
    I knew from earlier on that I had completed the normal relic step, the one prior to Zenith which meant I could procure it from the Calamity Scavenger and upgrade it to Zenith once again for a relative 60 Tomestones of Poetics.

    Spoiler: 

    A few hours later I came to my last zone, namely the one I started with in this weekend session; North Shroud. Did my stuff and finally got my last Atma.
    "Finally cleared this stage!" I thought and happily delivered everything to Jalzahn in North Shroud by Hyrstmill.
    Now came the time to put them into my weapon retainer to gather some dust until I start doing books on one of them.

    Spoiler: 

    That is, until I get this image trying to store my Stardust Rod Atma.
    Initially I was confused as to why this message popped. Then I remembered, I had 4 mannequins in my house, each with dyeable AF1 gear and more or less corresponding weapons (DRG mannequin has Lux instead of ARR relics).

    Spoiler: 

    My BLM mannequin which is also my weapon retainer had the Stardust Rod Atma already equipped.
    Checking my NIN mannequin right away.
    Spoiler: 

    Yes.
    Last edited by Sesshomaru; 2018-12-02 at 10:48 PM.

  2. #43522
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    53% seems too high for FF though, I'm not seeing these kind of improvements in my raid group from less than 20 item levels.
    I just checked my week 2 Chardanook kill (@i333-i335 likely, week 1 I died twice) and it was 3.4k DPS. Rank #1 Demon Chardanook (patch 4.2-4.3 only) shows 5.4k dps, roughly 56% DPS increase so it's pretty consistent.

    What are you seeing via your logs?

    Obviously not the first raid of the expansion, but in later tiers, yes, as an active player you should have tome gear updated.
    E.g: start Alphascape in 370 ilvl+, which is basically what the savage raiders have, barring the weapon of course.
    If we're going to play the "active" card though, I could say your ilvl should be near raider from playing WoW as well (as evidenced by guilds non raiders having a relatively equal ilvl). I thought the comparison was fresh to fresh and the % differential between them across both games.

  3. #43523
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I thought the comparison was fresh to fresh and the % differential between them across both games.
    It may be that Sorriors comparison was, but mine never has been.
    I always compared active players, which is why I stated that I am unsure about how big of an impact M+ farming has.

    Keep in mind, that my views on WoW may be outdated, because the majority of my experiences are from pre TF/M+ times.

    Regarding the raider data: gut feeling / memory says:
    DPS went from 5.8K ish to 6.5Kish.

    Edit: hard data from our last Train/Nook/Guardian kill (sadly only 1 report available):
    5.2K / 6.0K / 5.6K on average: 5.6K

    Data from our 2 most recent chaos kills and from our Midgardsomr firstkill (yay):
    Chaos 6.7K / 6.4K Midgard 6.0K on average: 6.4K

    Guess my gut feeling wasn't that far off.
    That would be an increase of about 15% from roughly i370 to i390ish. Different fights, so data would probably be more accurate if I asked our SMN to punch a dummy but it is enough to see that 53% over 16 item levels are quite far off the mark.

    BTW I would not compare myself to #1 logs. These groups fight differently (boosting the one that parses via buffs etc) and the reduced fight duration alone has a pretty big impact on DPS. It's far more useful to compare your own performance delta after an item level jump.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2018-12-03 at 08:10 AM.

  4. #43524
    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    Deep dungeons are usually your best bet if you want to be quick. If you need a change of pace, XP from clearing out your daily hunt logs (For HW up, ARR hunts don't give XP) adds up pretty quick, plus you're getting centurio seals so you can immediately kit out a fresh 70 in 330 gear.

    Heaven-on-high's experience tends to fall off a bit from 65+ though, at that point, you want to clear out all of your roulettes. Even MSQ if you have the time in the day, for as long as it is you'll usually get ~75% of a level from a single clear, easily double the XP of Alliance Roulettes, which is the next most XP.
    I forgot all about hunt logs!

  5. #43525
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    It may be that Sorriors comparison was, but mine never has been.
    I always compared active players, which is why I stated that I am unsure about how big of an impact M+ farming has.
    My apologies, rereading my post I said fresh to fresh what I meant was: You had asked me to compare the differential between a non-raider and a mythic raider. I offered the comparison of a non raider player to a rank 1 player (undoubtedly a Mythic/Savage raider) in both games.

    Edit: hard data from our last Train/Nook/Guardian kill (sadly only 1 report available):
    5.2K / 6.0K / 5.6K on average: 5.6K

    Data from our 2 most recent chaos kills and from our Midgardsomr firstkill (yay):
    Chaos 6.7K / 6.4K Midgard 6.0K on average: 6.4K

    Guess my gut feeling wasn't that far off.
    That would be an increase of about 15% from roughly i370 to i390ish. Different fights, so data would probably be more accurate if I asked our SMN to punch a dummy but it is enough to see that 53% over 16 item levels are quite far off the mark.

    BTW I would not compare myself to #1 logs. These groups fight differently (boosting the one that parses via buffs etc) and the reduced fight duration alone has a pretty big impact on DPS. It's far more useful to compare your own performance delta after an item level jump.
    Invalid example to compare 2 completely different fights. I provided numbers that are very easily verifiable and accurate. They're not far off the mark at all.

    I chose #1 logs on purpose to demonstrate that WoW doesn't have 200-300% differentials in even the most egregious scenarios. I then painted the exact same scenario in FF14 to draw a comparison. It's a very valuable comparison. Since you've remitted that point it's no longer relevant to the discussion though so we can let it go.

    However - I'm more than willing to offer up personal deltas as a more realistic approach because it still supports my original statement:

    1st Demon Chardanook kill - 3,472 DPS @ i333-340
    Last kill of the tier, 4,616 DPS @ i363

    33% differential

    • Heroic Taloc 1st kill 10,266 DPS @ i350
    • Last Heroic Taloc kill 15,306 DPS @ i371


    49% differential

    Now mind you my stance has never been which game is more/less, only that the differential between both games is a lot closer than people truly believe, and that it's important to dispel that common misinformation in the community.

  6. #43526
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Invalid example to compare 2 completely different fights.
    I didn't compare 2 different fights, I created average values over multiple encounters in each content Tier in an attempt to ease the differences between two encounters.
    Sadly, reports expire, so I cannot go back indefinitely or I would have compared reports from the beginning of the tier to reports towards the end.

    Still even if I did that, you have to keep in mind that improved group performance on any given boss encounter also increases individual performances independent from your item level. Shorter kill times alone will be quite noticeable in your DPS.

    Maybe you got 33% as a tank, being able to play with less shield oath as your group gets more comfortable with the encounter (unless you are a tank like ours, that is batshit insane and close to never touches tank stance ) I don't know, I'm certainly not seeing a raw 33% performance increase in either my numbers or the numbers of my team over 30ish item levels.

    Another approach of assessment:
    If I use the statistics of FFLogs, Summoners were at 4911 DPS in Alphascape, 5992 DPS in Sigmascape savage (75%) and are at 7230 DPS (75%) now. That would be an increase of 22% from Delta to Sigma and a 20.6% increase from Sigma to Alpha.

    I think we can meet in the middle of our two numbers and say, that a Tier jump in item level results in roughly 20% increased player output.
    So, a player that doesn't farm tomes and is essentially stuck with the "last Tiers" catchup gear, will lag behind roughly 20-25%.

    Lets compare that to WoW (easy since Warcraftlogs is basically the same), Legion, shall we? (We don't have a second Tier in BfA yet, so we cannot compare directly right now)

    In Nighthold, the Shadow priest was at 894.244 DPS (75%) in the next raid, Tomb of Sargeras, the Shadow was at 1.631.813 DPS (75%) and in Antorus, the burning Throne, the shadow sits squarely at 2.286.041 DPS (75%).

    That is an increase of 82% from Nighthold to Tomb and another 40% from Tomb to Antorus (kinda small, guess they hit the limits of what their engine could handle, hence the repeated squish in BfA).

    Going further back:
    BRF: 50.400 DPS -> HFC: 126.217 DPS = A whopping 250% !
    Now you know where the "myth" was born, I grant you that it may no longer be accurate, we have to see when the second Tier hits BfA.

    Still, that wasn't the actual point of the entire discussion with @Sorrior. He was sort of pissed that raiders get better gear than casuals, which, to be perfectly frank, simply isn't the case in FF-XIV. By the time Alphascape came around, I was decked in i370 just as people were that raided savage. So there is no "item level gap" to bemoan like in WoW. Not even a 50% one.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2018-12-03 at 05:54 PM.

  7. #43527
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    BRF: 50.400 DPS -> HFC: 126.217 DPS = A whopping 250% !
    This isn't correct comparison, HFC had overpowered class trinket and 795 ring with strong on use effect, both of those largely inflated results. The only thing this proves is that FFXIV doesn't have strong items, just stat sticks with more and more stats.

    By the way, average DPS in raids doesn't tell anything about fights in there. FFXIV rarely has massive AoE fests that dilute results (like Harjatan and Mistress in ToS or Botanist and Skorpyron in NH for example). Also you don't even take into account whether that DPS was effective or just meter padding.

    If you want direct comparison, let's take mostly strict single target fights:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...pec=Affliction 1M DPS on Augur
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...pec=Affliction 1.28 DPS on Kil'Jaeden
    Last edited by Rogalicus; 2018-12-03 at 06:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  8. #43528
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    This isn't correct comparison, HFC had overpowered class trinket and 795 ring with strong on use effect, both of those largely inflated results.
    True, though, as a player, I never cared WHY there was such a huge difference, only that it was there.
    I merely illustrated where the myth originated, it is good to see that it has since then been reigned in.

    Again, statistics. The data is across ALL encounters in a tier (12000 parses+) so, what the individual does in one particular situation is quite irrelevant.

  9. #43529
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    True, though, as a player, I never cared WHY there was such a huge difference, only that it was there.
    You are taking outlier and trying to build a theory based on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    The data is across ALL encounters in a tier (12000 parses+) so, what the individual does in one particular situation is quite irrelevant.
    You don't take into account what kind of encounters raid has and also whether given spec is good for most of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  10. #43530
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    You don't take into account what kind of encounters raid has and also whether given spec is good for most of them.
    Irrelevant, since I am only interested in the relative increase in power. No raid has only encounters a spec sucks at or only encounters it excels at. Raids always have been a mixed bag. Trust me, I have raided as a SPriest for over 8 years, I know the ups of them awesome council fights and the downs of annyoyingly crappy single target performance.

    That's the reason why I am averaging over the entire tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    You are taking outlier and trying to build a theory based on it.
    No therory building necessary, End of WoD was where I got the impression of a 200%+ power difference.
    Math has already taught me, that is no longer the case, so that particular discussion is closed.
    Stop beating a dead horse.

  11. #43531
    Deleted
    end wod essentially undo the whole squish they did at the start of it.
    Besides end expansion tier trinkets and legendaries have always been crazy, but even between one tier and another you can feel how much stronger you became on wow.
    Can't say the same power scaling can be felt on FFXIV, sometimes I've noticed that the % of power increase goes backwards in between tiers, but it could just be that some tiers are considered half tiers.

  12. #43532
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I didn't compare 2 different fights, I created average values over multiple encounters in each content Tier in an attempt to ease the differences between two encounters.
    Sadly, reports expire, so I cannot go back indefinitely or I would have compared reports from the beginning of the tier to reports towards the end.
    Strange - I don't upload personally. I rely on others, but all my logs in both games are still there and easily searchable. Maybe that's a setting they're checking/not checking? I couldn't replicate that math easily in WoW for a fair comparison because of the nature of encounter design. It'd heavily skew outward due to multi target fights.

    Still even if I did that, you have to keep in mind that improved group performance on any given boss encounter also increases individual performances independent from your item level. Shorter kill times alone will be quite noticeable in your DPS.
    Largely irrelevant as this applies just as much to WoW as it does FF14. I just found out like 3 weeks ago that Fetid takes 50% more damage once he's below 50% despite killing him for weeks prior LOL. I switched my cooldown usage appropriately and my numbers went up even more.

    Maybe you got 33% as a tank, being able to play with less shield oath as your group gets more comfortable with the encounter (unless you are a tank like ours, that is batshit insane and close to never touches tank stance ) I don't know, I'm certainly not seeing a raw 33% performance increase in either my numbers or the numbers of my team over 30ish item levels.
    I just ran the same exercise with my statics RDM. ~37% DPS increase from first kill to last. Same ilvl increase.

    For context (and you should know me well enough) I don't even have shield oath on my bar. That's how little I use it. No use using it in progression and letting healers get comfortable with it. I don't need the survivability and they have more than enough healing to compensate.

    If I use the statistics of FFLogs, Summoners were at 4911 DPS in Alphascape, 5992 DPS in Sigmascape savage (75%) and are at 7230 DPS (75%) now. That would be an increase of 22% from Delta to Sigma and a 20.6% increase from Sigma to Alpha.
    Context? What numbers specifically? Which Summoners and what patch/date and ilvl cap? What fight?

    Still, that wasn't the actual point of the entire discussion with @Sorrior. He was sort of pissed that raiders get better gear than casuals, which, to be perfectly frank, simply isn't the case in FF-XIV. By the time Alphascape came around, I was decked in i370 just as people were that raided savage. So there is no "item level gap" to bemoan like in WoW. Not even a 50% one.
    If that were true then why are so many casual players in my guild in WoW roughly the same ilvl as me?

    Yes, when the new raid came out 6 months later you were equivalent ilvl. How many months before you were equivalent?

    Also - again my math, which is still correct, shows a 49% differential in wow and a 33% differential in FF14. That's hardly different enough to complain one way or the other, if we're being honest. Which has been my entire point.

  13. #43533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I didn't compare 2 different fights, I created average values over multiple encounters in each content Tier in an attempt to ease the differences between two encounters.
    Sadly, reports expire, so I cannot go back indefinitely or I would have compared reports from the beginning of the tier to reports towards the end.

    Still even if I did that, you have to keep in mind that improved group performance on any given boss encounter also increases individual performances independent from your item level. Shorter kill times alone will be quite noticeable in your DPS.

    Maybe you got 33% as a tank, being able to play with less shield oath as your group gets more comfortable with the encounter (unless you are a tank like ours, that is batshit insane and close to never touches tank stance ) I don't know, I'm certainly not seeing a raw 33% performance increase in either my numbers or the numbers of my team over 30ish item levels.

    Another approach of assessment:
    If I use the statistics of FFLogs, Summoners were at 4911 DPS in Alphascape, 5992 DPS in Sigmascape savage (75%) and are at 7230 DPS (75%) now. That would be an increase of 22% from Delta to Sigma and a 20.6% increase from Sigma to Alpha.

    I think we can meet in the middle of our two numbers and say, that a Tier jump in item level results in roughly 20% increased player output.
    So, a player that doesn't farm tomes and is essentially stuck with the "last Tiers" catchup gear, will lag behind roughly 20-25%.

    Lets compare that to WoW (easy since Warcraftlogs is basically the same), Legion, shall we? (We don't have a second Tier in BfA yet, so we cannot compare directly right now)

    In Nighthold, the Shadow priest was at 894.244 DPS (75%) in the next raid, Tomb of Sargeras, the Shadow was at 1.631.813 DPS (75%) and in Antorus, the burning Throne, the shadow sits squarely at 2.286.041 DPS (75%).

    That is an increase of 82% from Nighthold to Tomb and another 40% from Tomb to Antorus (kinda small, guess they hit the limits of what their engine could handle, hence the repeated squish in BfA).

    Going further back:
    BRF: 50.400 DPS -> HFC: 126.217 DPS = A whopping 250% !
    Now you know where the "myth" was born, I grant you that it may no longer be accurate, we have to see when the second Tier hits BfA.

    Still, that wasn't the actual point of the entire discussion with @Sorrior. He was sort of pissed that raiders get better gear than casuals, which, to be perfectly frank, simply isn't the case in FF-XIV. By the time Alphascape came around, I was decked in i370 just as people were that raided savage. So there is no "item level gap" to bemoan like in WoW. Not even a 50% one.
    Not about better gear it is about imbalances i have noticed and a decent change in the games design/focus. Or seeming change.

    One that has gone further and further as each expansion has come from the class skill trimming to the reduction of dungeons and a bigger emphasis on raiding in general.

    Gear is just a side effect of my issues and frankly as i have said before i now mostly play for the story so i sub and unsubm level a few classes and so on.

    But the design of classes and direction of the games content HAS changed and a decent amount at that since launch.

    Ph and the bigger emphasis on the mogstation

  14. #43534
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Strange - I don't upload personally. I rely on others, but all my logs in both games are still there and easily searchable. Maybe that's a setting they're checking/not checking?
    More likely that the people who upload your logs have a premium plan. Logs do not expire then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Context? What numbers specifically? Which Summoners and what patch/date and ilvl cap? What fight?
    These numbers:
    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ount&bracket=4

    If you want to go the extra mile, you can try to interpet the graphs. At the beginning of the Tier, there's typically a big item level jump as everyone transitions to crafted and then tome gear until they do BiS sidegrades and stuff stabilizes.

    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...&timespan=1000

    Here is the data for Alphascape, though I don't think the gearing process is far enough along to draw conclusions at this point.
    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=5&dataset=95

    Neither in these graphs nor in personal experience do I see a 1/3rd increase in power over a single tier.
    There really is no need for us to calculate ourself, using exceedingly limited parses. WoL / FF logs already do a statistical analysis.

    Yes, when the new raid came out 6 months later you were equivalent ilvl. How many months before you were equivalent?
    Obviously there is a delay, casuals can only get equivalent at the end of a patch cycle, when the 24man upgrade token are released. Before that, they are 10 ilvls behind. Which is hardly relevant to player performance, which was my entire point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    For context (and you should know me well enough)
    Yeah, I know it was a dumb question.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Ph and the bigger emphasis on the mogstation
    That one I can agree to but I don't see the "focus on raids".

    If there was a "focus on raiding" one would think, the first thing they would do is offer more than 4 raid bosses every 6 months.

    No, what I am seeing is a "focus away from traditional MMO content" to "bullshit content" like Eureka, that is generally not that well received.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2018-12-04 at 10:32 AM.

  15. #43535
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    One that has gone further and further as each expansion has come from the class skill trimming to the reduction of dungeons and a bigger emphasis on raiding in general.

    But the design of classes and direction of the games content HAS changed and a decent amount at that since launch.
    I've kind of already debunked your belief that the game has focused more and more on raiding (to the detriment of non-raiders). skill trimming isn't to benefit raiders, it was to raise the skill floor.

    Correct that design and direction has changed, but not for the raiders, and definitely not because of raiders.

    Ph and the bigger emphasis on the mogstation
    This we can agree on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    More likely that the people who upload your logs have a premium plan. Logs do not expire then.
    TIL. Didn't know that!

    These numbers:
    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ount&bracket=4

    Neither in these graphs nor in personal experience do I see a 1/3rd increase in power over a single tier.
    There really is no need for us to calculate ourself, using exceedingly limited parses. WoL / FF logs already do a statistical analysis.
    Fair enough - I can see the limitation in using personal anecdotes as I wasn't looking at the percentile gains. I'm usually pretty consistent with strong performance, but there is a difference between 85th and 95th percentiles and that does inflate the values (on both ends, as this phenomenon exists in both).

    Using your methodology - I see a ~20% power differential at the 75th percentile. We agree on this correct?

    Using your methodology on WoW - I see a ~30% differential at the 75th percentile using Ret as an example.

    Keep in mind that the FF14 is a 20% increase across roughly 20ilvl where WoW is roughly 30ilvl. That would imply they're even closer than the data shows.

    This has been a fun exercise though so don't think I have any ill will or malice. I was curious to put some actual analysis in since things have been slow (not playing WoW or FF14 atm).

    Obviously there is a delay, casuals can only get equivalent at the end of a patch cycle, when the 24man upgrade token are released. Before that, they are 10 ilvls behind. Which is hardly relevant to player performance, which was my entire point.
    Which I countered with the anecdote of non-raiders having at times equivalent ilvl to me (a raider, albeit a filthy casual) and even sometimes higher. However, not all gear is created equal.

    That one I can agree to but I don't see the "focus on raids".

    If there was a "focus on raiding" one would think, the first thing they would do is offer more than 4 raid bosses every 6 months.

    No, what I am seeing is a "focus away from traditional MMO content" to "bullshit content" like Eureka, that is generally not that well received.
    Agreed.

  16. #43536
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Using your methodology - I see a ~20% power differential at the 75th percentile. We agree on this correct?
    Using your methodology on WoW - I see a ~30% differential at the 75th percentile using Ret as an example.

    Keep in mind that the FF14 is a 20% increase across roughly 20ilvl where WoW is roughly 30ilvl. That would imply they're even closer than the data shows.

    This has been a fun exercise though so don't think I have any ill will or malice. I was curious to put some actual analysis in since things have been slow (not playing WoW or FF14 atm).
    Seems about right, aye.
    Out of curiosity though: did you derive the 30% from BfA content?
    When I look at these graphs and filter by item level (what a luxury, wish FFlogs had that).
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

    Ret @ 349/351: 7065 DPS
    Ret @ 379/381: 16817 DPS

    That would be an increase of 138%.

    Looking at other classes, I'd say average DPS goes from 9K to 18K over 30 item levels.

    I believe you, with M+ farming, item level gap should be as narrow as it ever was. As you said though: a raider has more options when it comes to stat optimization. In both games (though options in FF are severely limited compared to WoW).

    Nah, no way I harbor any hard feelings. Oo
    I love to discuss and analyze like this. Whether my initial assumptions are proven correct or wrong in both cases, knowledge has been gained and fun has been had.

  17. #43537
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You could always come raid with us again man! Granted I'm not playing atm, but if you wanted to raid 8.1 with us, you're always welcome.
    I appreciate the offer, but I don't have a max level Alliance toon yet. I just yesterday finally earned Pathfinder because I just haven't been playing at all. Been playing other stuff. Mainly replaying the FFXIV story since it's been years since I've seen it all. Also finally getting through my single player game library.

    My MMO's right now are just in standby mode for me, since I've just accepted that I only really play them to experience the story and see the content. The gear treadmill and challenge just don't interest me, at all.

  18. #43538
    Apparently my volume 2 encyclopaedia just shipped so i assume the "manufacturing error" has been sorted.

    Knowing my luck it wont be them politely downplaying politically charged riots to consumers abroad but that there was a fault and they will have miscut pages or something.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  19. #43539
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Seems about right, aye.
    Out of curiosity though: did you derive the 30% from BfA content?
    When I look at these graphs and filter by item level (what a luxury, wish FFlogs had that).
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

    Ret @ 349/351: 7065 DPS
    Ret @ 379/381: 16817 DPS

    That would be an increase of 138%.

    Looking at other classes, I'd say average DPS goes from 9K to 18K over 30 item levels.

    I believe you, with M+ farming, item level gap should be as narrow as it ever was. As you said though: a raider has more options when it comes to stat optimization. In both games (though options in FF are severely limited compared to WoW).

    Nah, no way I harbor any hard feelings. Oo
    I love to discuss and analyze like this. Whether my initial assumptions are proven correct or wrong in both cases, knowledge has been gained and fun has been had.
    I do hate that FFLogs doesn't track ilvl. It's really the only flaw compared to warcraftlogs.

    I don't think comparing Mythic @ 349/351ilvl is relevant due to lack of parses. The # of players capable of successfully raiding Mythic at that ilvl is staggering low and doesn't lend to good analytics IMO and you can see that from the count of parses in your link.

    Regarding my 30% value I simply mimicked your exact methodology with Summoners that you linked previously.

    Here's the Summoner link: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...&timespan=1000

    Here's the Paladin Link: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ec=Retribution

    I previously used Heroic which is where the 30% value came from, the link above is Mythic though which shows ~54% differential including week 1, excluding week 1, it's back down to ~30%. One issue I have with the Mythic dataset is the very first week shows a dramatic difference from the following weeks. I'm not sure if it's worth including for comparisons sake, especially given how many parses are there and how few guilds progress Mythic week 1.

    I'll defer to your preference as to which would be the most appropriate methodology.

  20. #43540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I'll defer to your preference as to which would be the most appropriate methodology.
    Difficult to guess, I'm not an expert in the field.
    Easiest to do is to take the "current standing DPS" and filter that by item level, since the graphs do have ups and downs over time I cannot explain (balancing changes maybe?) because I am far too out of touch with what is happening in WoW these days.

    I agree to the limited # of parses in mythic, did notice that too, so lets do the same analysis for Heroic.

    Current standing, Heroic @ 349/351, roughly 1K parses per spec should be enough for an assessment.
    Ret DPS: 9246
    Current standing, Heroic @ 379/381, couple of thousand parses per spec.
    Ret DPS: 16.123

    That is still an increase of 74%. More than double your figure.
    Eyeballing the bars, I'd say average player DPS goes from 9.5K to 17K over 30 item levels, so that would be an increase of around 78% in output.
    Doing that for 20 item levels, to get closer to FFs figures: 9.5K to 13.5K = 42% increase.

    So I'd say, WoW has roughly double FF-XIVs amount of scaling with item level.
    At least, determined by the tools and knowledge I have at hand here. DEVs surely have more accurate data but this is pretty in line with my gut feeling. Gear always felt more "impactful" in WoW than in FF-XIV and that's not just because I played a DPS in WoW and a healer in FF.

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