1. #43561
    Got a reply from square enix the same time as a mass email: "if you bought the book in the eu we are experiencing difficulties with the manufacturer and your books will be delayed"

    'difficulties with the manufacturer' h'okay.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Anyone know what's the general fastest grind method of leveling these days up to 50? up to 60? up to 70?

    Started working on Dark Knight finally (I've had PLD but wanted to get DRK up) and finally got my WHM up a bit into the 50s. Probably going to keep plunking away at HW Beast Tribes as an xp supplement on WHM.

    I've been mixing up PotD and Squadron runs pre-50 on WHM and figured I'd so some of the same along with leveling roulette on DRK, but thought I'd see if there's anything I'm forgetting or that's become a notable leveling method.
    give up on tomestones and get the daily roullettes which gets you an easy level per day, throw in the ananta and kojin dailies and the hunt for some more bonus xp but beyond that its 60-61 in palace of the dead and then heaven on high and dungeon spam for the rest.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  2. #43562
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,298
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    You forgot to add "if you've been gearing up one class for the last 4 months doing weekly normal raids, weekly alliance raids and reaching weekly tomestone cap and still your weapon will be worse".
    All it takes is 5 expert dungeons per week and1x 4th boss normal clear per week for the first 7 weeks.
    In the second half of the tier (by then you no longer need experts tomes) 1x 24mans per week.
    Even the "casualst" of casuals can do it.

    Yes, if you compare to WoW, you should compare a person that only plays one class, else, you have to compare altoholics to omni class fighters. Naturally, they will either have to do WAY more, or have weaker gear because they split their tomes/limited playtime.
    BTW: do not ignore crafted gear. It is easy to get decent gear for all your played classes. Sure, you will be 20 ilvls behind fully decked savage raiders but you're still not as gimped as a non raider in WoW. Esp if you overmeld.

    Your weapon is only worse if you compare yourself to people that cleared the content. Most groups don't kill the last one until late into the cycle and 5 item levels on the weapon are hardly noticeable.

    Gear does indeed feel somewhat underwhelming but I take an underwhelming treadmill to the never ending, RNG infested madness that is WoWs gearing any day.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2018-12-01 at 01:22 PM.

  3. #43563
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    All it takes is 5 expert dungeons per week and1x 4th boss normal clear per week for the first 7 weeks.
    In the second half of the tier (by then you no longer need experts tomes) 1x 24mans per week.
    Even the "casualst" of casuals can do it.

    Yes, if you compare to WoW, you should compare a person that only plays one class, else, you have to compare altoholics to omni class fighters. Naturally, they will either have to do WAY more, or have weaker gear because they split their tomes/limited playtime.
    BTW: do not ignore crafted gear. It is easy to get decent gear for all your played classes. Sure, you will be 20 ilvls behind fully decked savage raiders but you're still not as gimped as a non raider in WoW. Esp if you overmeld.

    Your weapon is only worse if you compare yourself to people that cleared the content. Most groups don't kill the last one until late into the cycle and 5 item levels on the weapon are hardly noticeable.

    Gear does indeed feel somewhat underwhelming but I take an underwhelming treadmill to the never ending, RNG infested madness that is WoWs gearing any day.
    It only took a few weeks of BFA to appreciate ffxiv's gearing. Can't even escape RNG with guilds anymore because they made everything personal loot. Random titanforges, no tomes or weekly progress for gear. Just your own luck with drops and loot chest. No thanks.

  4. #43564
    It's funny, for someone who hates RNG in determining outcomes and performance, I actually don't mind RNG with regards to loot drops and such. Go figure. I actually enjoyed drops in Legion, although I haven't played BFA yet.

    The only thing that did bother me were Legiondaries since those actually could have a really big impact. But oh well.

  5. #43565
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Gear does indeed feel somewhat underwhelming but I take an underwhelming treadmill to the never ending, RNG infested madness that is WoWs gearing any day.
    The main issue I've run into with WoW's gearing is that it all feels very disposable. You get gear thrown at you from every direction and even if something is an upgrade, you're likely going to be replacing it for something else within a matter of hours play time anyway. I don't even bother transmogrifying it anymore, it's just a waste of gold. I don't consider the Titanforging RNG to be that much of an issue. While you can get items that randomly have a higher iLevel, it's so small that it's really not going to be a huge deal most of the time.

    The one issue I take with it is that there are no reliable, non-RNG, based methods to acquire gear anymore. Without a gear currency you're left without any kind of safety net if things don't go your way. I've been having some pretty rough luck myself and am stuck healing with a iLevel 335 timewarped mace, while the rest of my gear is upwards of iLevel 360. All you can really do about that is just keep doing content that has a chance to drop one.

    FF14 on the other hand does make gear feel a lot better. If I get a new piece I know I'll be keeping it for long enough to make slotting Materia worth it. And I have multiple avenues to acquire that gear, all of which require me to run PvE content a for a set minimum each week. It may not be as interesting or as exciting as WoWs trinket procs and Azerite traits, but you will very reliably get the gear that you need. That's something that can't be over stated, any investment you make is going towards improving your character, rather than just the chance to improve it. Even the unluckiest player in the world is going to get the right gear they need sooner or later in FF14. In WoW getting stuck in RNG limbo is a very real possiability.

  6. #43566
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Now go and compare the performance of a non raider (not even normal) to that of a Mythic raider and get back to me, because that's what I was referring to.
    Is my first raid night sufficient? I.e. first clear of normal of the first boss? If so:
    • My Taloc Normal - 10.2k DPS @ i350
    • Rank 1 as of today Taloc Normal - 17.7k DPS @i380+.

    That's a 74% differential for roughly 30ilvls. Again, still no where near 200-300%.

    • Deltascape logs Alte Roite - 2.8k DPS @ i316
    • Rank 1 PLD 4.4k DPS @i333 (patch 4.1).

    This is a 53% differential for 16-17ilvl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    From what I remember, originally Savage mode was the completely raw version of the raid (specifically Coil), with no tuning done to bring it into line with what the current ilevel was. Because the fights were initially just completely brutally overtuned compared to what a player could actually output at the time.

    I don't remember seeing information on how they designed Savage mode in Heavensward and Stormblood. Do you have a source that says this is how they did it?
    Correct - that is the original implementation. Then when it didn't get a lot of participation they shifted methodologies and created normal for the regular playerbase and transformed the existing raids into "savage". I do not have any source, but remember it from the LL. Others are welcome to chime in if they remember better than me.

    Just to clarify a little, the question was in the context of ilevel difference. For reference, what was your ilevel compared to the ilevel of the people you're comparing yourself to? So the question can be more directly answered.
    See above.

    The numbers you're quoting indicate it's possible for there to be a at least ~60% different in number output just from skill alone. And in my experience the differences in play style isn't THAT different, it's pretty subtle, since the combo system exists. But those slight differences/ tweaks seem to have a much more profound impact than the ilevel does. That's CRAZY to me.
    It's more prevalent with tanks than it is with DPS because a good tank will minimize tank stance thus have a flat 25% throughput gain that lower skilled players will not. Combine that with poor oGCD usage and bad CPM and you see WILD swings in tank DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    E.G.: You cannot just pick up a non raider and expect him to be useful to your mythic raid. Even if the dude is the best skilled player in the world, the raw stats aren't there to push the needed DPS/HPS/have the needed defensive stats.
    FF doesn't have that problem. I could hop into savage straight away, wearing my tome gear, because 10 item levels hardly matter.
    You could hop into day 1 raid with your full tome gear? Come on now. It takes 2 weeks alone to get legs or chest. It takes longer to get the weapon (75% of jobs first buy). Most decent teams clear 1/2 the first day. Hell in both delta I pugged the first 3 in the first week. I pugged the first 2 in delta, then had some IRL shit prevent me from playing for 2 weeks. I pugged 3 on the 3 week.

    Now that's not to say you can't, because ilvl is ultimately irrelevant in FF14, but your premise is misleading at best.

    We have picked up a few casual players (i.e. non raiders) and brought them into mythic to get 20 bodies and cleared bosses. Sure they died and did shit DPS, but it was never 200-300% less. It was always over half of what I did. Funnily enough some of these casual non raiders had higher ilvl than me despite not raiding consistently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    That's really the gist of what I was looking for, so thanks for entertaining the question. As I said, I don't raid in WoW, outside of LFR anyway, so have no way to gauge this stuff, but based on what I did know I thought the differences could be greater than they apparently are. I absolutely see a difference in LFR, specifically between people who are apparently Mythic geared vs everyone else, the difference is staggering.
    You could always come raid with us again man! Granted I'm not playing atm, but if you wanted to raid 8.1 with us, you're always welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    No, I didn't forget them. I explicitly said that M+ blurs that line.
    I never did farm them, so I cannot assess how feasible it is to get well geared through them.
    It's plenty feasible. I never farmed them either. I might do 2-3 a week and call it a day. Every now and then you snag something juicy.

  7. #43567
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,298
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Is my first raid night sufficient? I.e. first clear of normal of the first boss? If so:
    • My Taloc Normal - 10.2k DPS @ i350
    • Rank 1 as of today Taloc Normal - 17.7k DPS @i380+.

    That's a 74% differential for roughly 30ilvls. Again, still no where near 200-300%.

    • Deltascape logs Alte Roite - 2.8k DPS @ i316
    • Rank 1 PLD 4.4k DPS @i333 (patch 4.1).

    This is a 53% differential for 16-17ilvl.
    Then it's gotten better since the recent squish, that is good to know.
    I'm not very active these days, so my data pool is limited.

    53% seems too high for FF though, I'm not seeing these kind of improvements in my raid group from less than 20 item levels.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You could hop into day 1 raid with your full tome gear?
    Obviously not the first raid of the expansion, but in later tiers, yes, as an active player you should have tome gear updated.
    E.g: start Alphascape in 370 ilvl+, which is basically what the savage raiders have, barring the weapon of course.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2018-12-02 at 08:39 PM.

  8. #43568
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sesshomaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Troms, Norway
    Posts
    2,101
    Being the moron that I am, this weekend I suddenly decided to farm all the Atma for all of my non-completed Zeta weapons so I can skip that phase should I ever wish to complete more than the 2 which I already have (SMN/WAR).
    Spoiler: 

    Southern Thanalan and Lower La Noscea were the worst one in terms of gain per hour after finding about my stupidity.
    Because I could not fathom as to why after two hours in South Shroud wouldn't yield me a single Atma.
    I've done the completed Zeta line twice. I went to South Shroud to farm the Atma there.
    That's when it hit me; I am at the wrong location. There are no Atma corresponding to South Shroud.

    Now, some of you might have noticed in regards to the image that I have 8/12 Atma at 7 and 4/12 at 8. That's because I did an "/isearch zenith" before I began and found a total of 7 Zenith weapons which I had in my armory and weapon retainer. I counted at the start and found the number to be correct. After I had completed 8/12 areas, I decided to be thorough and count all ARR jobs. I came to 10. Prior, I had already completed 2, which means I had 8 left.

    "8? But my count was at 7? How is that possible?" After quickly reading through the log, I went with the command to find Yoshimitsu (NIN relic).
    None.
    I knew from earlier on that I had completed the normal relic step, the one prior to Zenith which meant I could procure it from the Calamity Scavenger and upgrade it to Zenith once again for a relative 60 Tomestones of Poetics.

    Spoiler: 

    A few hours later I came to my last zone, namely the one I started with in this weekend session; North Shroud. Did my stuff and finally got my last Atma.
    "Finally cleared this stage!" I thought and happily delivered everything to Jalzahn in North Shroud by Hyrstmill.
    Now came the time to put them into my weapon retainer to gather some dust until I start doing books on one of them.

    Spoiler: 

    That is, until I get this image trying to store my Stardust Rod Atma.
    Initially I was confused as to why this message popped. Then I remembered, I had 4 mannequins in my house, each with dyeable AF1 gear and more or less corresponding weapons (DRG mannequin has Lux instead of ARR relics).

    Spoiler: 

    My BLM mannequin which is also my weapon retainer had the Stardust Rod Atma already equipped.
    Checking my NIN mannequin right away.
    Spoiler: 

    Yes.
    Last edited by Sesshomaru; 2018-12-02 at 10:48 PM.

  9. #43569
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    53% seems too high for FF though, I'm not seeing these kind of improvements in my raid group from less than 20 item levels.
    I just checked my week 2 Chardanook kill (@i333-i335 likely, week 1 I died twice) and it was 3.4k DPS. Rank #1 Demon Chardanook (patch 4.2-4.3 only) shows 5.4k dps, roughly 56% DPS increase so it's pretty consistent.

    What are you seeing via your logs?

    Obviously not the first raid of the expansion, but in later tiers, yes, as an active player you should have tome gear updated.
    E.g: start Alphascape in 370 ilvl+, which is basically what the savage raiders have, barring the weapon of course.
    If we're going to play the "active" card though, I could say your ilvl should be near raider from playing WoW as well (as evidenced by guilds non raiders having a relatively equal ilvl). I thought the comparison was fresh to fresh and the % differential between them across both games.

  10. #43570
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,298
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I thought the comparison was fresh to fresh and the % differential between them across both games.
    It may be that Sorriors comparison was, but mine never has been.
    I always compared active players, which is why I stated that I am unsure about how big of an impact M+ farming has.

    Keep in mind, that my views on WoW may be outdated, because the majority of my experiences are from pre TF/M+ times.

    Regarding the raider data: gut feeling / memory says:
    DPS went from 5.8K ish to 6.5Kish.

    Edit: hard data from our last Train/Nook/Guardian kill (sadly only 1 report available):
    5.2K / 6.0K / 5.6K on average: 5.6K

    Data from our 2 most recent chaos kills and from our Midgardsomr firstkill (yay):
    Chaos 6.7K / 6.4K Midgard 6.0K on average: 6.4K

    Guess my gut feeling wasn't that far off.
    That would be an increase of about 15% from roughly i370 to i390ish. Different fights, so data would probably be more accurate if I asked our SMN to punch a dummy but it is enough to see that 53% over 16 item levels are quite far off the mark.

    BTW I would not compare myself to #1 logs. These groups fight differently (boosting the one that parses via buffs etc) and the reduced fight duration alone has a pretty big impact on DPS. It's far more useful to compare your own performance delta after an item level jump.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2018-12-03 at 08:10 AM.

  11. #43571
    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    Deep dungeons are usually your best bet if you want to be quick. If you need a change of pace, XP from clearing out your daily hunt logs (For HW up, ARR hunts don't give XP) adds up pretty quick, plus you're getting centurio seals so you can immediately kit out a fresh 70 in 330 gear.

    Heaven-on-high's experience tends to fall off a bit from 65+ though, at that point, you want to clear out all of your roulettes. Even MSQ if you have the time in the day, for as long as it is you'll usually get ~75% of a level from a single clear, easily double the XP of Alliance Roulettes, which is the next most XP.
    I forgot all about hunt logs!

  12. #43572
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    It may be that Sorriors comparison was, but mine never has been.
    I always compared active players, which is why I stated that I am unsure about how big of an impact M+ farming has.
    My apologies, rereading my post I said fresh to fresh what I meant was: You had asked me to compare the differential between a non-raider and a mythic raider. I offered the comparison of a non raider player to a rank 1 player (undoubtedly a Mythic/Savage raider) in both games.

    Edit: hard data from our last Train/Nook/Guardian kill (sadly only 1 report available):
    5.2K / 6.0K / 5.6K on average: 5.6K

    Data from our 2 most recent chaos kills and from our Midgardsomr firstkill (yay):
    Chaos 6.7K / 6.4K Midgard 6.0K on average: 6.4K

    Guess my gut feeling wasn't that far off.
    That would be an increase of about 15% from roughly i370 to i390ish. Different fights, so data would probably be more accurate if I asked our SMN to punch a dummy but it is enough to see that 53% over 16 item levels are quite far off the mark.

    BTW I would not compare myself to #1 logs. These groups fight differently (boosting the one that parses via buffs etc) and the reduced fight duration alone has a pretty big impact on DPS. It's far more useful to compare your own performance delta after an item level jump.
    Invalid example to compare 2 completely different fights. I provided numbers that are very easily verifiable and accurate. They're not far off the mark at all.

    I chose #1 logs on purpose to demonstrate that WoW doesn't have 200-300% differentials in even the most egregious scenarios. I then painted the exact same scenario in FF14 to draw a comparison. It's a very valuable comparison. Since you've remitted that point it's no longer relevant to the discussion though so we can let it go.

    However - I'm more than willing to offer up personal deltas as a more realistic approach because it still supports my original statement:

    1st Demon Chardanook kill - 3,472 DPS @ i333-340
    Last kill of the tier, 4,616 DPS @ i363

    33% differential

    • Heroic Taloc 1st kill 10,266 DPS @ i350
    • Last Heroic Taloc kill 15,306 DPS @ i371


    49% differential

    Now mind you my stance has never been which game is more/less, only that the differential between both games is a lot closer than people truly believe, and that it's important to dispel that common misinformation in the community.

  13. #43573
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,298
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Invalid example to compare 2 completely different fights.
    I didn't compare 2 different fights, I created average values over multiple encounters in each content Tier in an attempt to ease the differences between two encounters.
    Sadly, reports expire, so I cannot go back indefinitely or I would have compared reports from the beginning of the tier to reports towards the end.

    Still even if I did that, you have to keep in mind that improved group performance on any given boss encounter also increases individual performances independent from your item level. Shorter kill times alone will be quite noticeable in your DPS.

    Maybe you got 33% as a tank, being able to play with less shield oath as your group gets more comfortable with the encounter (unless you are a tank like ours, that is batshit insane and close to never touches tank stance ) I don't know, I'm certainly not seeing a raw 33% performance increase in either my numbers or the numbers of my team over 30ish item levels.

    Another approach of assessment:
    If I use the statistics of FFLogs, Summoners were at 4911 DPS in Alphascape, 5992 DPS in Sigmascape savage (75%) and are at 7230 DPS (75%) now. That would be an increase of 22% from Delta to Sigma and a 20.6% increase from Sigma to Alpha.

    I think we can meet in the middle of our two numbers and say, that a Tier jump in item level results in roughly 20% increased player output.
    So, a player that doesn't farm tomes and is essentially stuck with the "last Tiers" catchup gear, will lag behind roughly 20-25%.

    Lets compare that to WoW (easy since Warcraftlogs is basically the same), Legion, shall we? (We don't have a second Tier in BfA yet, so we cannot compare directly right now)

    In Nighthold, the Shadow priest was at 894.244 DPS (75%) in the next raid, Tomb of Sargeras, the Shadow was at 1.631.813 DPS (75%) and in Antorus, the burning Throne, the shadow sits squarely at 2.286.041 DPS (75%).

    That is an increase of 82% from Nighthold to Tomb and another 40% from Tomb to Antorus (kinda small, guess they hit the limits of what their engine could handle, hence the repeated squish in BfA).

    Going further back:
    BRF: 50.400 DPS -> HFC: 126.217 DPS = A whopping 250% !
    Now you know where the "myth" was born, I grant you that it may no longer be accurate, we have to see when the second Tier hits BfA.

    Still, that wasn't the actual point of the entire discussion with @Sorrior. He was sort of pissed that raiders get better gear than casuals, which, to be perfectly frank, simply isn't the case in FF-XIV. By the time Alphascape came around, I was decked in i370 just as people were that raided savage. So there is no "item level gap" to bemoan like in WoW. Not even a 50% one.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2018-12-03 at 05:54 PM.

  14. #43574
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    BRF: 50.400 DPS -> HFC: 126.217 DPS = A whopping 250% !
    This isn't correct comparison, HFC had overpowered class trinket and 795 ring with strong on use effect, both of those largely inflated results. The only thing this proves is that FFXIV doesn't have strong items, just stat sticks with more and more stats.

    By the way, average DPS in raids doesn't tell anything about fights in there. FFXIV rarely has massive AoE fests that dilute results (like Harjatan and Mistress in ToS or Botanist and Skorpyron in NH for example). Also you don't even take into account whether that DPS was effective or just meter padding.

    If you want direct comparison, let's take mostly strict single target fights:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...pec=Affliction 1M DPS on Augur
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...pec=Affliction 1.28 DPS on Kil'Jaeden
    Last edited by Rogalicus; 2018-12-03 at 06:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  15. #43575
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,298
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    This isn't correct comparison, HFC had overpowered class trinket and 795 ring with strong on use effect, both of those largely inflated results.
    True, though, as a player, I never cared WHY there was such a huge difference, only that it was there.
    I merely illustrated where the myth originated, it is good to see that it has since then been reigned in.

    Again, statistics. The data is across ALL encounters in a tier (12000 parses+) so, what the individual does in one particular situation is quite irrelevant.

  16. #43576
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    True, though, as a player, I never cared WHY there was such a huge difference, only that it was there.
    You are taking outlier and trying to build a theory based on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    The data is across ALL encounters in a tier (12000 parses+) so, what the individual does in one particular situation is quite irrelevant.
    You don't take into account what kind of encounters raid has and also whether given spec is good for most of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  17. #43577
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,298
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    You don't take into account what kind of encounters raid has and also whether given spec is good for most of them.
    Irrelevant, since I am only interested in the relative increase in power. No raid has only encounters a spec sucks at or only encounters it excels at. Raids always have been a mixed bag. Trust me, I have raided as a SPriest for over 8 years, I know the ups of them awesome council fights and the downs of annyoyingly crappy single target performance.

    That's the reason why I am averaging over the entire tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    You are taking outlier and trying to build a theory based on it.
    No therory building necessary, End of WoD was where I got the impression of a 200%+ power difference.
    Math has already taught me, that is no longer the case, so that particular discussion is closed.
    Stop beating a dead horse.

  18. #43578
    Deleted
    end wod essentially undo the whole squish they did at the start of it.
    Besides end expansion tier trinkets and legendaries have always been crazy, but even between one tier and another you can feel how much stronger you became on wow.
    Can't say the same power scaling can be felt on FFXIV, sometimes I've noticed that the % of power increase goes backwards in between tiers, but it could just be that some tiers are considered half tiers.

  19. #43579
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I didn't compare 2 different fights, I created average values over multiple encounters in each content Tier in an attempt to ease the differences between two encounters.
    Sadly, reports expire, so I cannot go back indefinitely or I would have compared reports from the beginning of the tier to reports towards the end.
    Strange - I don't upload personally. I rely on others, but all my logs in both games are still there and easily searchable. Maybe that's a setting they're checking/not checking? I couldn't replicate that math easily in WoW for a fair comparison because of the nature of encounter design. It'd heavily skew outward due to multi target fights.

    Still even if I did that, you have to keep in mind that improved group performance on any given boss encounter also increases individual performances independent from your item level. Shorter kill times alone will be quite noticeable in your DPS.
    Largely irrelevant as this applies just as much to WoW as it does FF14. I just found out like 3 weeks ago that Fetid takes 50% more damage once he's below 50% despite killing him for weeks prior LOL. I switched my cooldown usage appropriately and my numbers went up even more.

    Maybe you got 33% as a tank, being able to play with less shield oath as your group gets more comfortable with the encounter (unless you are a tank like ours, that is batshit insane and close to never touches tank stance ) I don't know, I'm certainly not seeing a raw 33% performance increase in either my numbers or the numbers of my team over 30ish item levels.
    I just ran the same exercise with my statics RDM. ~37% DPS increase from first kill to last. Same ilvl increase.

    For context (and you should know me well enough) I don't even have shield oath on my bar. That's how little I use it. No use using it in progression and letting healers get comfortable with it. I don't need the survivability and they have more than enough healing to compensate.

    If I use the statistics of FFLogs, Summoners were at 4911 DPS in Alphascape, 5992 DPS in Sigmascape savage (75%) and are at 7230 DPS (75%) now. That would be an increase of 22% from Delta to Sigma and a 20.6% increase from Sigma to Alpha.
    Context? What numbers specifically? Which Summoners and what patch/date and ilvl cap? What fight?

    Still, that wasn't the actual point of the entire discussion with @Sorrior. He was sort of pissed that raiders get better gear than casuals, which, to be perfectly frank, simply isn't the case in FF-XIV. By the time Alphascape came around, I was decked in i370 just as people were that raided savage. So there is no "item level gap" to bemoan like in WoW. Not even a 50% one.
    If that were true then why are so many casual players in my guild in WoW roughly the same ilvl as me?

    Yes, when the new raid came out 6 months later you were equivalent ilvl. How many months before you were equivalent?

    Also - again my math, which is still correct, shows a 49% differential in wow and a 33% differential in FF14. That's hardly different enough to complain one way or the other, if we're being honest. Which has been my entire point.

  20. #43580
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Anchorage Alaska
    Posts
    11,299
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I didn't compare 2 different fights, I created average values over multiple encounters in each content Tier in an attempt to ease the differences between two encounters.
    Sadly, reports expire, so I cannot go back indefinitely or I would have compared reports from the beginning of the tier to reports towards the end.

    Still even if I did that, you have to keep in mind that improved group performance on any given boss encounter also increases individual performances independent from your item level. Shorter kill times alone will be quite noticeable in your DPS.

    Maybe you got 33% as a tank, being able to play with less shield oath as your group gets more comfortable with the encounter (unless you are a tank like ours, that is batshit insane and close to never touches tank stance ) I don't know, I'm certainly not seeing a raw 33% performance increase in either my numbers or the numbers of my team over 30ish item levels.

    Another approach of assessment:
    If I use the statistics of FFLogs, Summoners were at 4911 DPS in Alphascape, 5992 DPS in Sigmascape savage (75%) and are at 7230 DPS (75%) now. That would be an increase of 22% from Delta to Sigma and a 20.6% increase from Sigma to Alpha.

    I think we can meet in the middle of our two numbers and say, that a Tier jump in item level results in roughly 20% increased player output.
    So, a player that doesn't farm tomes and is essentially stuck with the "last Tiers" catchup gear, will lag behind roughly 20-25%.

    Lets compare that to WoW (easy since Warcraftlogs is basically the same), Legion, shall we? (We don't have a second Tier in BfA yet, so we cannot compare directly right now)

    In Nighthold, the Shadow priest was at 894.244 DPS (75%) in the next raid, Tomb of Sargeras, the Shadow was at 1.631.813 DPS (75%) and in Antorus, the burning Throne, the shadow sits squarely at 2.286.041 DPS (75%).

    That is an increase of 82% from Nighthold to Tomb and another 40% from Tomb to Antorus (kinda small, guess they hit the limits of what their engine could handle, hence the repeated squish in BfA).

    Going further back:
    BRF: 50.400 DPS -> HFC: 126.217 DPS = A whopping 250% !
    Now you know where the "myth" was born, I grant you that it may no longer be accurate, we have to see when the second Tier hits BfA.

    Still, that wasn't the actual point of the entire discussion with @Sorrior. He was sort of pissed that raiders get better gear than casuals, which, to be perfectly frank, simply isn't the case in FF-XIV. By the time Alphascape came around, I was decked in i370 just as people were that raided savage. So there is no "item level gap" to bemoan like in WoW. Not even a 50% one.
    Not about better gear it is about imbalances i have noticed and a decent change in the games design/focus. Or seeming change.

    One that has gone further and further as each expansion has come from the class skill trimming to the reduction of dungeons and a bigger emphasis on raiding in general.

    Gear is just a side effect of my issues and frankly as i have said before i now mostly play for the story so i sub and unsubm level a few classes and so on.

    But the design of classes and direction of the games content HAS changed and a decent amount at that since launch.

    Ph and the bigger emphasis on the mogstation

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •