1. #43581
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Strange - I don't upload personally. I rely on others, but all my logs in both games are still there and easily searchable. Maybe that's a setting they're checking/not checking?
    More likely that the people who upload your logs have a premium plan. Logs do not expire then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Context? What numbers specifically? Which Summoners and what patch/date and ilvl cap? What fight?
    These numbers:
    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ount&bracket=4

    If you want to go the extra mile, you can try to interpet the graphs. At the beginning of the Tier, there's typically a big item level jump as everyone transitions to crafted and then tome gear until they do BiS sidegrades and stuff stabilizes.

    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...&timespan=1000

    Here is the data for Alphascape, though I don't think the gearing process is far enough along to draw conclusions at this point.
    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=5&dataset=95

    Neither in these graphs nor in personal experience do I see a 1/3rd increase in power over a single tier.
    There really is no need for us to calculate ourself, using exceedingly limited parses. WoL / FF logs already do a statistical analysis.

    Yes, when the new raid came out 6 months later you were equivalent ilvl. How many months before you were equivalent?
    Obviously there is a delay, casuals can only get equivalent at the end of a patch cycle, when the 24man upgrade token are released. Before that, they are 10 ilvls behind. Which is hardly relevant to player performance, which was my entire point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    For context (and you should know me well enough)
    Yeah, I know it was a dumb question.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Ph and the bigger emphasis on the mogstation
    That one I can agree to but I don't see the "focus on raids".

    If there was a "focus on raiding" one would think, the first thing they would do is offer more than 4 raid bosses every 6 months.

    No, what I am seeing is a "focus away from traditional MMO content" to "bullshit content" like Eureka, that is generally not that well received.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2018-12-04 at 10:32 AM.

  2. #43582
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    One that has gone further and further as each expansion has come from the class skill trimming to the reduction of dungeons and a bigger emphasis on raiding in general.

    But the design of classes and direction of the games content HAS changed and a decent amount at that since launch.
    I've kind of already debunked your belief that the game has focused more and more on raiding (to the detriment of non-raiders). skill trimming isn't to benefit raiders, it was to raise the skill floor.

    Correct that design and direction has changed, but not for the raiders, and definitely not because of raiders.

    Ph and the bigger emphasis on the mogstation
    This we can agree on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    More likely that the people who upload your logs have a premium plan. Logs do not expire then.
    TIL. Didn't know that!

    These numbers:
    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ount&bracket=4

    Neither in these graphs nor in personal experience do I see a 1/3rd increase in power over a single tier.
    There really is no need for us to calculate ourself, using exceedingly limited parses. WoL / FF logs already do a statistical analysis.
    Fair enough - I can see the limitation in using personal anecdotes as I wasn't looking at the percentile gains. I'm usually pretty consistent with strong performance, but there is a difference between 85th and 95th percentiles and that does inflate the values (on both ends, as this phenomenon exists in both).

    Using your methodology - I see a ~20% power differential at the 75th percentile. We agree on this correct?

    Using your methodology on WoW - I see a ~30% differential at the 75th percentile using Ret as an example.

    Keep in mind that the FF14 is a 20% increase across roughly 20ilvl where WoW is roughly 30ilvl. That would imply they're even closer than the data shows.

    This has been a fun exercise though so don't think I have any ill will or malice. I was curious to put some actual analysis in since things have been slow (not playing WoW or FF14 atm).

    Obviously there is a delay, casuals can only get equivalent at the end of a patch cycle, when the 24man upgrade token are released. Before that, they are 10 ilvls behind. Which is hardly relevant to player performance, which was my entire point.
    Which I countered with the anecdote of non-raiders having at times equivalent ilvl to me (a raider, albeit a filthy casual) and even sometimes higher. However, not all gear is created equal.

    That one I can agree to but I don't see the "focus on raids".

    If there was a "focus on raiding" one would think, the first thing they would do is offer more than 4 raid bosses every 6 months.

    No, what I am seeing is a "focus away from traditional MMO content" to "bullshit content" like Eureka, that is generally not that well received.
    Agreed.

  3. #43583
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Using your methodology - I see a ~20% power differential at the 75th percentile. We agree on this correct?
    Using your methodology on WoW - I see a ~30% differential at the 75th percentile using Ret as an example.

    Keep in mind that the FF14 is a 20% increase across roughly 20ilvl where WoW is roughly 30ilvl. That would imply they're even closer than the data shows.

    This has been a fun exercise though so don't think I have any ill will or malice. I was curious to put some actual analysis in since things have been slow (not playing WoW or FF14 atm).
    Seems about right, aye.
    Out of curiosity though: did you derive the 30% from BfA content?
    When I look at these graphs and filter by item level (what a luxury, wish FFlogs had that).
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

    Ret @ 349/351: 7065 DPS
    Ret @ 379/381: 16817 DPS

    That would be an increase of 138%.

    Looking at other classes, I'd say average DPS goes from 9K to 18K over 30 item levels.

    I believe you, with M+ farming, item level gap should be as narrow as it ever was. As you said though: a raider has more options when it comes to stat optimization. In both games (though options in FF are severely limited compared to WoW).

    Nah, no way I harbor any hard feelings. Oo
    I love to discuss and analyze like this. Whether my initial assumptions are proven correct or wrong in both cases, knowledge has been gained and fun has been had.

  4. #43584
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You could always come raid with us again man! Granted I'm not playing atm, but if you wanted to raid 8.1 with us, you're always welcome.
    I appreciate the offer, but I don't have a max level Alliance toon yet. I just yesterday finally earned Pathfinder because I just haven't been playing at all. Been playing other stuff. Mainly replaying the FFXIV story since it's been years since I've seen it all. Also finally getting through my single player game library.

    My MMO's right now are just in standby mode for me, since I've just accepted that I only really play them to experience the story and see the content. The gear treadmill and challenge just don't interest me, at all.

  5. #43585
    Apparently my volume 2 encyclopaedia just shipped so i assume the "manufacturing error" has been sorted.

    Knowing my luck it wont be them politely downplaying politically charged riots to consumers abroad but that there was a fault and they will have miscut pages or something.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  6. #43586
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Seems about right, aye.
    Out of curiosity though: did you derive the 30% from BfA content?
    When I look at these graphs and filter by item level (what a luxury, wish FFlogs had that).
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

    Ret @ 349/351: 7065 DPS
    Ret @ 379/381: 16817 DPS

    That would be an increase of 138%.

    Looking at other classes, I'd say average DPS goes from 9K to 18K over 30 item levels.

    I believe you, with M+ farming, item level gap should be as narrow as it ever was. As you said though: a raider has more options when it comes to stat optimization. In both games (though options in FF are severely limited compared to WoW).

    Nah, no way I harbor any hard feelings. Oo
    I love to discuss and analyze like this. Whether my initial assumptions are proven correct or wrong in both cases, knowledge has been gained and fun has been had.
    I do hate that FFLogs doesn't track ilvl. It's really the only flaw compared to warcraftlogs.

    I don't think comparing Mythic @ 349/351ilvl is relevant due to lack of parses. The # of players capable of successfully raiding Mythic at that ilvl is staggering low and doesn't lend to good analytics IMO and you can see that from the count of parses in your link.

    Regarding my 30% value I simply mimicked your exact methodology with Summoners that you linked previously.

    Here's the Summoner link: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...&timespan=1000

    Here's the Paladin Link: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...ec=Retribution

    I previously used Heroic which is where the 30% value came from, the link above is Mythic though which shows ~54% differential including week 1, excluding week 1, it's back down to ~30%. One issue I have with the Mythic dataset is the very first week shows a dramatic difference from the following weeks. I'm not sure if it's worth including for comparisons sake, especially given how many parses are there and how few guilds progress Mythic week 1.

    I'll defer to your preference as to which would be the most appropriate methodology.

  7. #43587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I'll defer to your preference as to which would be the most appropriate methodology.
    Difficult to guess, I'm not an expert in the field.
    Easiest to do is to take the "current standing DPS" and filter that by item level, since the graphs do have ups and downs over time I cannot explain (balancing changes maybe?) because I am far too out of touch with what is happening in WoW these days.

    I agree to the limited # of parses in mythic, did notice that too, so lets do the same analysis for Heroic.

    Current standing, Heroic @ 349/351, roughly 1K parses per spec should be enough for an assessment.
    Ret DPS: 9246
    Current standing, Heroic @ 379/381, couple of thousand parses per spec.
    Ret DPS: 16.123

    That is still an increase of 74%. More than double your figure.
    Eyeballing the bars, I'd say average player DPS goes from 9.5K to 17K over 30 item levels, so that would be an increase of around 78% in output.
    Doing that for 20 item levels, to get closer to FFs figures: 9.5K to 13.5K = 42% increase.

    So I'd say, WoW has roughly double FF-XIVs amount of scaling with item level.
    At least, determined by the tools and knowledge I have at hand here. DEVs surely have more accurate data but this is pretty in line with my gut feeling. Gear always felt more "impactful" in WoW than in FF-XIV and that's not just because I played a DPS in WoW and a healer in FF.

  8. #43588
    My copy of the encylcopedia vol.2 arrived and its got a lot of info people wanted the first time like a list of every hunt, lore breakdowns on every dungeon and so on.

    One particularly interesting thing is on the entry for Amdapoor keep. Apparently Kuribu was "carved in the image of creature from another world" to align it to white magic. Maybe that thing attacking the warrior of light in the Shadowbringers trailer isn't a Kuribu but what its actually based on?
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  9. #43589
    I'm still waiting on mine. Hopefully it'll arrive tomorrow.

  10. #43590
    I got mine, but haven't had a chance to open and dig in yet. I've got a lot of leisure activities planned for the last week of the year and the first week of the new year, though. 16 straight days off!

    Going to get DRK and WHM to 70, get decked out in the rest of Genesis gear, and stockpile the Rabanstre coins in preparation for the eventual upgrades with the final coin.
    Catch up on my TMNT comic backlog.
    Read a book or two and check out Eorzea Encyclopedia Vol 2
    Watch some blurays in my backlog.
    Hopefully have finished my play through of KoTOR so I'm hoping to play through KoTOR 2 during the 2 weeks.

    Additional possibilities: Play through Red Dead Redemption on PS3, Assassin's Creed Origins on PS4 (started both but still a long way to go), and try out Starlink.

  11. #43591
    Okay i got my tinfoil hat theory after reading the encyclopedia: I think its possible the Kuribu looking thing is actually the thing Kuribu is carved in the image of and the "flood of light" mentioned by the warrior of darkness isn't a case of "one day your good deed meter tickers over to 101% and the world explodes" but rather "the world is now a bright enough beacon to attract a flood, or swarm of light based entities from elsewhere.

    Its the old fantasy trope. The antithesis of chaos is often not just order, but a militant, authoritarian dominion. Something that could travel from world to world in a war with the forces of zodiark and see a world of bodies an ascian can posses and decide "sickness must be purged" -a phrase popular with the worshippers of halone who may in fact be one of these entities based on her statue in ishgard- and the reason the warriors of darkness failed is because right after beating their big bads this swarm of angels descended on the world killing anything capable of acts of darkness which in theory is every single living person on that world. Extinction for 'the greater good' to some uncaring, inhuman intelligence. So to defeat that light which a warrior of light would be as cancelled out by as we were with the ultima weapon we turn to the anthesis of light: darkness.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  12. #43592
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    My copy of the encylcopedia vol.2 arrived and its got a lot of info people wanted the first time like a list of every hunt, lore breakdowns on every dungeon and so on.

    One particularly interesting thing is on the entry for Amdapoor keep. Apparently Kuribu was "carved in the image of creature from another world" to align it to white magic. Maybe that thing attacking the warrior of light in the Shadowbringers trailer isn't a Kuribu but what its actually based on?
    Did you get a shipping email? Cause so far mines not even shipped as far as i can tell.

  13. #43593
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Did you get a shipping email? Cause so far mines not even shipped as far as i can tell.
    yeah yesterday then dpd were at the door this morning reeking of weed like usual
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  14. #43594
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    yeah yesterday then dpd were at the door this morning reeking of weed like usual
    Damn..Heh guess i keep waitibg and hope i get an email..just hope i get it

  15. #43595
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Okay i got my tinfoil hat theory after reading the encyclopedia: I think its possible the Kuribu looking thing is actually the thing Kuribu is carved in the image of and the "flood of light" mentioned by the warrior of darkness isn't a case of "one day your good deed meter tickers over to 101% and the world explodes" but rather "the world is now a bright enough beacon to attract a flood, or swarm of light based entities from elsewhere.

    Its the old fantasy trope. The antithesis of chaos is often not just order, but a militant, authoritarian dominion. Something that could travel from world to world in a war with the forces of zodiark and see a world of bodies an ascian can posses and decide "sickness must be purged" -a phrase popular with the worshippers of halone who may in fact be one of these entities based on her statue in ishgard- and the reason the warriors of darkness failed is because right after beating their big bads this swarm of angels descended on the world killing anything capable of acts of darkness which in theory is every single living person on that world. Extinction for 'the greater good' to some uncaring, inhuman intelligence. So to defeat that light which a warrior of light would be as cancelled out by as we were with the ultima weapon we turn to the anthesis of light: darkness.
    My theory was basically just a boiled down version of this. We learned during the Warriors of Darkness story line in Heavensward that too much of one or the other of Light or Darkness is bad, the world requires balance. We've been pushing the agenda of the Light since the game started and have finally reached the brink and need to work to restore balance from the other direction.

    I've seen the excerpt from Volume 2 regarding the Kuribu and it would make sense that the entity we see in the trailer is the actual being that inspired the Kuribu carving and it is a being of the Light (or Lightsent), similar to but opposite from the Voidsent that were alluded to being from worlds that had been completely taken over by darkness.

    Regardless, I'm very intrigued by where this is going and am very excitedly looking forward to the next expansion.

  16. #43596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    My theory was basically just a boiled down version of this. We learned during the Warriors of Darkness story line in Heavensward that too much of one or the other of Light or Darkness is bad, the world requires balance. We've been pushing the agenda of the Light since the game started and have finally reached the brink and need to work to restore balance from the other direction.
    I came to that conclusion after seeing the events in Heavensward.
    It's inevitable that we will have to do sth for the dark side in order to preserve the balance.

  17. #43597
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I came to that conclusion after seeing the events in Heavensward.
    It's inevitable that we will have to do sth for the dark side in order to preserve the balance.
    Yup. The part that I'm wondering about is how they will have us "switch side" so to speak. Will we now work with Elidibus on behalf of Zodiark? Will we now become Zodiarks chosen? Will we be the chosen for "the Source" so be able to speak to both Hydaelyn and Zodiark? How will the whole narrative of now being a "Warrior of Darkness" START, let alone play out?

  18. #43598
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Yup. The part that I'm wondering about is how they will have us "switch side" so to speak. Will we now work with Elidibus on behalf of Zodiark? Will we now become Zodiarks chosen? Will we be the chosen for "the Source" so be able to speak to both Hydaelyn and Zodiark? How will the whole narrative of now being a "Warrior of Darkness" START, let alone play out?
    Personally, I prefer not to speculate and just let the narrative roll.

  19. #43599
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Personally, I prefer not to speculate and just let the narrative roll.
    Not meaning to speculate really, just really interested on how they'll let the narrative start rolling, as you say. Was just spitballing some things off the top of my head since I literally JUST finished re-playing through Heavensward two days ago so have everything fresh in my head from that, but I have no expectations one way or the other.

  20. #43600
    Bloodsail Admiral Dugna's Avatar
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    maybe tons of people die in the next patch story because of that war with garlemald and the MC just becomes to pissed off at the light that never helps that they snap.

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