1. #43601
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Some people just need a simple, bare-bones basic healer to get them into the swing of things. Honestly, I think that's a fine niche for it to have. It doesn't make it any worse as a Job, but by being more approachable it's a stepping stone to the other, more difficult, healing Jobs. It's also the iconic video game healer too, that holds a lot of appeal for some.

    AST is much more versitile and far more fun, I agree. It also asks more of the player, which makes it less beginner friendly than WHM.
    I never actually healed much at all in all my years of playing mmos. But my pc was dead, i picked up AST because it looked cool really, nothing more than that. Jumped into guildhests and saw how on the ps3 controller -now the ps4 as well- it was tap up or down on the d pad to cycle through the party and left and right for enemies and it felt like reverse dpsing when healing that way and that sounds stupid but that sold me on the job mostly because it was less 'keeping that health bar about 80%' and spamming overheals like i have seen a lot of WHM players doing lately and more about just keeping a shield up or a regen while using the card system and going 'okay who do i cast this one on for the most payoff' and that felt less like i was this turret standing back ready for the blame everytime a wipe happens and that really got me into healing in a way WoW never did.
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  2. #43602
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Don't be afraid to let it drop down to 50% in dungeons. Few hard hits there that are problematic. In FF you have the ability to bring up a players HP rather quickly, opposed to WoW where you have to spam weak ass placebo heals while waiting for your large CD heals to come off cooldown.

    I generally only start casting healing once the tank drops below 50%. Rest is DPS.

    In savage, you usually do not get that option, these encounters are designed for both healers to bring up the raid ASAP.

    Personally, I find 4mans a snoozefest to heal, no matter what class. Yeah sure, flopping a card every 30 seconds is nice but you'll quickly learn that not all of them are terribly useful and burn most of them to get the added effects for the next one.

  3. #43603
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post


    [HEAVY BREATHING]
    I want them. Even if I don't race change into one, I want them.

  4. #43604
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Don't be afraid to let it drop down to 50% in dungeons. Few hard hits there that are problematic. In FF you have the ability to bring up a players HP rather quickly, opposed to WoW where you have to spam weak ass placebo heals while waiting for your large CD heals to come off cooldown.

    I generally only start casting healing once the tank drops below 50%. Rest is DPS.

    In savage, you usually do not get that option, these encounters are designed for both healers to bring up the raid ASAP.

    Personally, I find 4mans a snoozefest to heal, no matter what class. Yeah sure, flopping a card every 30 seconds is nice but you'll quickly learn that not all of them are terribly useful and burn most of them to get the added effects for the next one.
    Early on i had a tank in tam tara say 'theres no need to keep me full, dont bother healing till i hit 50%' which let me dps a lot more and also taught me to relax more when healing. I think i was used to WoWs dungeon finder cesspit where one wipe means everyone disbands. In XIV's case swiftcast+raise makes folks a lot more lenient i think, even the ones that come from games like WoW. A tank death is rarely a wipe unless its a bad or new tank that pulled like half the dungeon at once and on death has them tidal wave over the party before the raise even takes.
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  5. #43605
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    A tank death is rarely a wipe unless its a bad or new tank that pulled like half the dungeon at once
    Erm... I don't know about your experience level but wall to wall pulling pretty much the norm at 70 and has been ever since 50. Us tanks (I mainly tank in dungeons because healing is boring) expect our healers to be able to cope with that, provided they have the gear for it ofc.

    Naturally, depending on the tanks gear, these pulls are not quite as relaxed to heal. If DPS isn't up to snuff they can get painful, though I usually throttle things down then I notice the healer struggling.

  6. #43606
    Scarab Lord Greevir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Erm... I don't know about your experience level but wall to wall pulling pretty much the norm at 70 and has been ever since 50. Us tanks (I mainly tank in dungeons because healing is boring) expect our healers to be able to cope with that, provided they have the gear for it ofc.

    Naturally, depending on the tanks gear, these pulls are not quite as relaxed to heal. If DPS isn't up to snuff they can get painful, though I usually throttle things down then I notice the healer struggling.
    Lately I've been getting a number of bad WAR tanks doing this. They'll pull 3-4 groups and take like 60% of their health in damage in one global. Will rarely get one that seems to know what they're doing. That said, I've never had an issue with a PLD tank and can count on just one hand how many bad DRK tanks I've had.

  7. #43607
    Pandaren Monk The Casualty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greevir View Post
    Lately I've been getting a number of bad WAR tanks doing this. They'll pull 3-4 groups and take like 60% of their health in damage in one global. Will rarely get one that seems to know what they're doing. That said, I've never had an issue with a PLD tank and can count on just one hand how many bad DRK tanks I've had.
    I think there is a commonality among a lot of tanks I have seen where they sparingly use cooldowns or save them for bosses or when "shit hits the fan". Wall-to-wall pulling in Ex roulettes is the best way, so long as you have a sufficiently geared healer (who is contributing to DPS) and you rotate through your defensive abilities.

    Where this strategy fails is if you have terrible DPS and a healer who isn't contributing - The pulls will take so long that you will cycle through all of your cooldowns and still not be done with the fight.

  8. #43608
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greevir View Post
    Lately I've been getting a number of bad WAR tanks doing this. They'll pull 3-4 groups and take like 60% of their health in damage in one global. Will rarely get one that seems to know what they're doing. That said, I've never had an issue with a PLD tank and can count on just one hand how many bad DRK tanks I've had.
    Yeah, a lot of tanks feel obligated to pull that way in order to not get yelled at, yet they don't have the knowledge to deal with this pulls in a manner that doesn't give the healer a heart attack.

    The FF community isn't that much different than the WoW community in that regard.

    E.g:When I have 2 melee DPS in my group I typically pull the 2 big worms near the end solo, because I consider it rather inefficient if melee constantly has to run from large void zones. In 80% of the cases, the healer pulls the other group for me w/o any comment.

  9. #43609
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Some people just need a simple, bare-bones basic healer to get them into the swing of things. Honestly, I think that's a fine niche for it to have. It doesn't make it any worse as a Job, but by being more approachable it's a stepping stone to the other, more difficult, healing Jobs. It's also the iconic video game healer too, that holds a lot of appeal for some.

    AST is much more versitile and far more fun, I agree. It also asks more of the player, which makes it less beginner friendly than WHM.
    My biggest gripe with this methodology is that what if I want a compelling "challenging" gameplay experience but like the aesthetic of the "simple" job? It means I either have to stomach a shitty experience or play a job I don't like aesthetically, and that's not fun.

  10. #43610
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    My biggest gripe with this methodology is that what if I want a compelling "challenging" gameplay experience but like the aesthetic of the "simple" job? It means I either have to stomach a shitty experience or play a job I don't like aesthetically, and that's not fun.
    It's not a method that will keep everyone happy 100% of the time. Provided there are other jobs that do fit what you're looking for both in terms of playstyle and asthetics then I don't think it's a massive issue. An MMO without a Job that you like playing isn't one you're going to stick around with for very long afterall.

    I do think that for a game like FF14 that assumes it's audience hasn't played an MMO before and has lots of great introductory content for them, having an "easy" Job for each role is appropriate. There's lots of time later on down the line to add more complex and challenging jobs, but it's hard to add a new job that's designed to appeal almost exclusively to new players thrown in a couple of expansions down the line.

  11. #43611
    After doing a bunch of alliance raids every day for easy roullette WHM exp i decided to try Uldir LFR to compare and contrast.

    How the fuck is the baseline WoW lfr player getting dumber AND ruder? like Alliance raids sometimes gets a ' COME ON YOU NEED TO MOVE' in chat for certain mechanics but its like "oh its just lfr" is a hand waving way of dealing with whats like barrens chat: the raid experience.

    The two get compared a lot but out in the open world it seems player behaviour is pretty similar in both but theres something about lfr vs alliance raids that just turns people into animals.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  12. #43612
    Bloodsail Admiral Dugna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    After doing a bunch of alliance raids every day for easy roullette WHM exp i decided to try Uldir LFR to compare and contrast.

    How the fuck is the baseline WoW lfr player getting dumber AND ruder? like Alliance raids sometimes gets a ' COME ON YOU NEED TO MOVE' in chat for certain mechanics but its like "oh its just lfr" is a hand waving way of dealing with whats like barrens chat: the raid experience.

    The two get compared a lot but out in the open world it seems player behaviour is pretty similar in both but theres something about lfr vs alliance raids that just turns people into animals.
    think its because more things can actually kill you in alliance raids then lfr, where as both aren't that hard compared to the top tier raids I would say alliance raids are harder then lfr most of the time. So that means some people are more willing to make it go smoothly by explaining some things. Also if people leave a raid or dungeon in FF14 it takes longer to slot that person in than in lfr where people just pop in out all the time.

    You lose that one person in group A? now group A can't do LB3 and it makes the raid last longer. More reasons to be nice and helpful is the TLDR for alliance raids vs lfr.

  13. #43613
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    My biggest gripe with this methodology is that what if I want a compelling "challenging" gameplay experience but like the aesthetic of the "simple" job? It means I either have to stomach a shitty experience or play a job I don't like aesthetically, and that's not fun.
    Not every class has to be overly convoluted and tough to play.
    I like that there are different styles.

    That being said: Diurnal AST doesn't heal that much differently compared to WHM. Star placement and timing is pretty much the biggest difference, most other spells are carbon copies off WHM spells.
    I would play it more often, if them dumb RNG cards weren't such a PITA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    More reasons to be nice and helpful is the TLDR for alliance raids vs lfr.
    Pretty much.
    Also: unlimited combat rezzes. You don't get those in LFR and they make a huge difference. In that regard, LFR is actually harder.

  14. #43614
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Pretty much.
    Also: unlimited combat rezzes. You don't get those in LFR and they make a huge difference. In that regard, LFR is actually harder.
    [/QUOTE]

    Christ the amount of LFR's a single RDM could keep alive with the mp regen ross role ability alone
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  15. #43615
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    It's not a method that will keep everyone happy 100% of the time. Provided there are other jobs that do fit what you're looking for both in terms of playstyle and asthetics then I don't think it's a massive issue. An MMO without a Job that you like playing isn't one you're going to stick around with for very long afterall.

    I do think that for a game like FF14 that assumes it's audience hasn't played an MMO before and has lots of great introductory content for them, having an "easy" Job for each role is appropriate. There's lots of time later on down the line to add more complex and challenging jobs, but it's hard to add a new job that's designed to appeal almost exclusively to new players thrown in a couple of expansions down the line.
    As much as WoW gets stuff wrong this is one area they do fairly well. Look at Ret Paladins, often touted as the simpletons DPS spec, but I have the ability via talents to select a more robust gameplay experience. I can pick talents that give me a short duration buff to manage, additional procs, a whole new GCD ability, etc.

    I can turn Ret from a simpleton's DPS spec into something that actually requires "effort" to play well. Even in FF14 I'm 100% ok with the concept as simple jobs, but give me options to change that if I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    How the fuck is the baseline WoW lfr player getting dumber AND ruder? like Alliance raids sometimes gets a ' COME ON YOU NEED TO MOVE' in chat for certain mechanics but its like "oh its just lfr" is a hand waving way of dealing with whats like barrens chat: the raid experience.

    The two get compared a lot but out in the open world it seems player behaviour is pretty similar in both but theres something about lfr vs alliance raids that just turns people into animals.
    I'm not entirely sure that's even possible tbh. They're already rock bottom as far as I am concerned. LFR and Alliance Raids are compared because they're the most apt comparison, but it's no stranger that AR's are generally more "challenging" (minus the few that you couldn't fail if you tried, much like LFR).

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Not every class has to be overly convoluted and tough to play.
    I like that there are different styles.
    Agreed, but rather than forcing the job as the sole factor let the player have that decision by expanding jobs functions and toolkits.

    IMO of course.

  16. #43616
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Agreed, but rather than forcing the job as the sole factor let the player have that decision by expanding jobs functions and toolkits.
    IMO of course.
    You know as well as I do, that the raiding community would "enforce" FOTM-BIS.
    I've seen it with Blizzards approach to the new talents in WoD. Complicated stuff ended up FOTM because, in the hand of skilled players, the talents were stronger.

    Personally I don't like fighting my classes gameplay and the boss at the same time. My class should be relatively simple, not 3 button braindead but also not adorned with artificial complexity like HWs Henochian incarnation.

    As a healer, most complexity comes from reacting fast and saving failing players, I agree that healers (esp pure healers w/o side gigs) aren't particularly engaging when everyone involved has skill and knows what he is doing. I don't believe we should "balance" healer complexity around these scenarios because most people clearly do NOT know what they are doing and it is already up to us to compensate as many fails as humanly possible.

  17. #43617
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    As much as WoW gets stuff wrong this is one area they do fairly well. Look at Ret Paladins, often touted as the simpletons DPS spec, but I have the ability via talents to select a more robust gameplay experience. I can pick talents that give me a short duration buff to manage, additional procs, a whole new GCD ability, etc.

    I can turn Ret from a simpleton's DPS spec into something that actually requires "effort" to play well. Even in FF14 I'm 100% ok with the concept as simple jobs, but give me options to change that if I want.
    That lack of flexability has always been an issue with FF14, even right back when they had stat points you had to manually assign. Cross-role skills could have help bridged that gap, but they've repeatedly dropped the ball when it comes to making good skills to the point where they've let you take them all anyway.

    The upside is that the performance delta between the worst and best players should be much smaller than a game like WoW, you can't leave important parts of your job behind like you could with powerful talents in WoW. The downside is that if you have a Job that's simple by design, much like the White Mage, then there's nothing you can do as a player to make that experience more challenging for yourself short of deliberately handicapping yourself.

    I'd like to see FF14 open up more when it comes to Job design. They have hinted at changes with Shadowbringers, but without much in the way of information on what those are going to be all we can do is speculate. I'm hoping we'll see more ways to customise how our Jobs play, if that is via new Cross Role skills, a talent type system or something else entirely, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we see something in this area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    As a healer, most complexity comes from reacting fast and saving failing players, I agree that healers (esp pure healers w/o side gigs) aren't particularly engaging when everyone involved has skill and knows what he is doing.
    I've never considered that "Whack-a-Mole" style of healing to be particularly engaging myself. It's extremely reactive, you're not making things happen yourself, you're waiting for them to happen to other people. That's why I'm in favour of MP being a much more important resource for healers. It doesn't add much extra complexity at a base level, but it does add a much needed decision making process to the role. I don't recall ever having to decide if I should save a DPS or save the MP because I need it for tank healing. Nor have I ever had to decide if I should be using a powerful heal or an efficient one. I can just do it all anyway because MP is a none issue.

    It also shifts some of the responsability to the rest of the group too. If there are too many fails across the group as a whole then you'll wipe because your healers ran out of MP. There's also an extra dial in the form of DPS. The faster you kill a boss the less time your healers have to be active, therefore allowing you to make more mistakes without hitting that failure state.

  18. #43618
    Everyone knows the challenge behind playing White Mage is putting as many tanks through the 1% challenge as possible (letting them get as close to 1% health as possible before they either freak out and pop their invuln CD or you get off a benediction without it getting eaten)

    As an aside my FC doesn't let me WHM heal for them anymore.

  19. #43619
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    I can't actually stand WHM. AST for life.

  20. #43620
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I've never considered that "Whack-a-Mole" style of healing to be particularly engaging myself. It's extremely reactive, you're not making things happen yourself, you're waiting for them to happen to other people. That's why I'm in favour of MP being a much more important resource for healers. It doesn't add much extra complexity at a base level, but it does add a much needed decision making process to the role.
    Yeah, this is part of why I loved healing in Cataclysm in WoW.

    Mana was important and you couldn't just throw things around willy-nilly. Efficiency became super important, knowing the encounters became extremely important.

    At one point I had scripts written up for every boss in Tier 11 Heroic and most of Firelands to help healers understand threats, downtime, when to use cooldowns, if you could use a cooldown early to conserve mana and have it back for a critical time later, etc. (Actually had a guide site approach me about using them for their site once and making a healer guide, hah. No.)

    It was actually pretty fun and really let good healers stand out. A good healer familiar with the fights and good at conserving mana could absolutely make a fool of other healers. I never felt that way as a healer at any other time in the game.

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