1. #44601
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Make crusader stance less useless please SQEX.

  2. #44602
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Not having any strong Job mechanics also presents a huge hurdle too. It means the choice to keep your buff up is purely decorative - There's almost never a situation where refreshing is the wrong call. The opportunity cost is just one GCD, so it's almost never a waste the way it would be if you burned 5 Combo Points on a Slice and Dice and the boss died 5 seconds later. Not having an actual resource cost or requiring job mechanics prevents it from ever being a meaningful choice.

    At this point however the problems have been baked in as part of the jobs themselves. To fix it and allow self buffs/debuffs to be engaging would require a complete overhaul almost from the ground up for most Jobs. As much as I would like to see it happen, I can see Squenix brushing it under the rug as being too much hard work, and the longer they leave it the harder it will get.
    They have been slowly working towards changing Jobs to have Self-Buffs be a lot more useful, thus punishing to DPS if used incorrectly. Samurai have quite a few different buttons which very easily separate good SAMs from bad SAMs. Much of their proper Rotation also requires good positioning to maximise Kenki to allow you to Buff certain moves throughout combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game..
    I play all Jobs effectively using just a Normal Keyboard and a Mouse that has MB4/5. Also being such a long GCD, I think a lot of people are entirely comfortable with just clicking.

  3. #44603
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I play all Jobs effectively using just a Normal Keyboard and a Mouse that has MB4/5. Also being such a long GCD, I think a lot of people are entirely comfortable with just clicking.
    Until you get into savage.
    I only click stuff with CDs > 60s but even that can get annoying fast in heavy movement encounters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Make crusader stance less useless please SQEX.
    Is that the "beefs up autohit damage" one from PLD?
    Imho what I want to see is tank stances getting taken off the GCD.

  4. #44604
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Until you get into savage.
    I only click stuff with CDs > 60s but even that can get annoying fast in heavy movement encounters.


    This is my Hotbar, the only 2 buttons on it that I press Manually are Limit Break and Sprint. Both so I don't fat finger them mid combat.

  5. #44605
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Is that the "beefs up autohit damage" one from PLD?
    Imho what I want to see is tank stances getting taken off the GCD.
    Oh right, it's cleric stance in english, that thing.

  6. #44606
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    They have been slowly working towards changing Jobs to have Self-Buffs be a lot more useful, thus punishing to DPS if used incorrectly. Samurai have quite a few different buttons which very easily separate good SAMs from bad SAMs. Much of their proper Rotation also requires good positioning to maximise Kenki to allow you to Buff certain moves throughout combat.
    AFAIK it's as interesting as "buff your 1 and 3 symbol abilities and then spend excess Kenki on direct damage". And all melee have positionals, though it's one of the first things I would have dropped from the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  7. #44607
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    AFAIK it's as interesting as "buff your 1 and 3 symbol abilities and then spend excess Kenki on direct damage". And all melee have positionals, though it's one of the first things I would have dropped from the game.
    That's how most WoW classes work as well. it's not a bad thing. and most classes have an ability or 2 they have to actively keep an eye on.

  8. #44608
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV.
    Personally, I use ` to 6, QERT, FG, \ZXC as well as the 2 side buttons on my mouse for keybinds. Then I use Shift, Ctrl and Alt and the previous keys to bind pretty much everything I need. I do click things that get used out of combat exclusively, like Mounting, Teleport and so on to save on binds. I can't say if it'll work for everyone else, but those have worked for me across most MMO's I've played.

    I have occasionally played with my Street Fighter arcade stick just for the funnies. It wasn't awful, but it was still very lacking compared to a Keyboard and Mouse. I expect that regular controllers wouldn't have the same problems however, having a Right Stick makes navigating a 3D world much easier.

    Though with FF14 I've got like... 6 (?) different hotbars over the screen to hold everything I'm going to need to use. Along with the cluttered Party and Raid UI, as well as Job Gauges and other large UI elements, it doesn't leave a whole lot of space free for actually seeing what's going on around me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And that is the core of the issue I think, we've been working around bad design for years. Not everyone has the skills or ability to work around fewer keybinds and still perform optimally. But that shouldn't be a fall back option, performing sub optimally because people simply can't feasibly access the class abilities is unacceptable.
    One of the other major things I dislike are abilities that you cast on a friendly target if you're not a healer. Ones like Goad, Palisade and such. Having to manually click on your target, press the button, then click back on your DPS target is a huge usability hurdle.

    I don't think those are bad abilities per se, but they're hamstrung by the UI. Not being able to use an addon, or even functional mouseover macros, makes it a tough one to solve. Having an ability that's just too clunky to use is far more irritating than having filler skills in my opinion - You can ignore a bad skill, but a good skill that's awkward to use is much harder to just overlook. Needing workarounds for core Job skills is a design failure in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    That's not to say I don't think the game has or doesn't have too many abilities for some classes, or some could be baked into other abilities, but I have also played WoW, which means I understand the importance of having too few abilities, too. Maybe it can easily be overwhelming for newer players, but you slowly learn as you level your abilities to comfortably learn your rotations and binds. So..why is that a bad thing? It gives you reason to improve, to do better, or you just..don't.
    The issue with this line of thought is the order which you learn abilities. Very often you're going to get important game changing ones 55+ levels into the game, at which point you've already gotten comfortable with your existing keybinds and rotations and have spent tens of hours building up the muscle memory.

    Having to relearn your Job and your Binds every 6-10 levels makes for a very disjointed experience, and punishes you for getting familiar with your Job rather than rewards you. You can't really learn your jobs core mechanics because most just don't have one defining set and rely instead on universal game mechanics.

    On the subject of WoW, I think it lands in that sweet spot of having about the right number of abilities. I can fit them on on 2 hotbars, and have the extra bar at the side for things like Mounts, Healthstones, Hearthstone and so on. At the same time, almost all of the abilities you have tend to be multi-purpose and play off each other in a way that FF14's combos just don't.

    For the record, I'm playing a Paladin. I don't feel as though any of the skills I have are useless in any form or capacity, I do feel as though my Class is limited in some areas but that it was an intentional choice rather than developer forgetfulness. I'm not sure if the same is true for other classes, but honestly, I think Blizzard have done a pretty solid job all in all. A smaller set of quality abilities is far more preferable than a broader set of situational ones to me.

  9. #44609
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I play all Jobs effectively using just a Normal Keyboard and a Mouse that has MB4/5. Also being such a long GCD, I think a lot of people are entirely comfortable with just clicking.
    I'm sure people can play the jobs effectively enough to get by (not trying to imply you're just getting by). I just have a hard time believing that someone with a regular mouse and keyboard is able to play a class that has ~25+ abilities that are used regularly OPTIMALLY from both a gameplay perspective, but also ergonomic perspective.

    I don't doubt that people will "get by" well enough to enjoy the game with just a regular M+KB, but I also don't doubt that some of those people are the ones having difficulty doing relatively simple mechanics in mechanic heavy fights because it's practically impossible to turn the camera while moving, move to a specific spot to avoid a mechanic, pay attention to other player position, use abilities AND attack the right target if you're having to manually click abilities.

    And this is just in normal mode. Forget doing it in the higher end difficulties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Personally, I use ` to 6, QERT, FG, \ZXC as well as the 2 side buttons on my mouse for keybinds. Then I use Shift, Ctrl and Alt and the previous keys to bind pretty much everything I need. I do click things that get used out of combat exclusively, like Mounting, Teleport and so on to save on binds. I can't say if it'll work for everyone else, but those have worked for me across most MMO's I've played.

    I have occasionally played with my Street Fighter arcade stick just for the funnies. It wasn't awful, but it was still very lacking compared to a Keyboard and Mouse. I expect that regular controllers wouldn't have the same problems however, having a Right Stick makes navigating a 3D world much easier.

    Though with FF14 I've got like... 6 (?) different hotbars over the screen to hold everything I'm going to need to use. Along with the cluttered Party and Raid UI, as well as Job Gauges and other large UI elements, it doesn't leave a whole lot of space free for actually seeing what's going on around me.
    I used to play MMOs with no peripherals, because I didn't feel like spending the money. Then, after a heavy raiding season in WoW I ended up going to the doctor because my wrist, pinky and thumb on my left hand had repetitive stress injuries from all the gymnastics they had to do to hit the keys, hold down modifiers, and turn to allow fingers access to the right key.

    I 100% advocate that heavy MMO gamers should invest in these kinds of peripherals because of what happened to me. Two ~$80 peripherals are more than worth it if it means I don't have to deal with pain in my hand, pay for doctors visits, pain meds or a brace AND get increased performance in games. But most MMOs that I've played don't require you to have the peripherals to play optimally, it's just a bonus, and prevents injury. In FFXIV, there's just no way I could play it without the peripherals I have, at least not at a level that I am comfortable with.

    One of the other major things I dislike are abilities that you cast on a friendly target if you're not a healer. Ones like Goad, Palisade and such. Having to manually click on your target, press the button, then click back on your DPS target is a huge usability hurdle.

    I don't think those are bad abilities per se, but they're hamstrung by the UI. Not being able to use an addon, or even functional mouseover macros, makes it a tough one to solve. Having an ability that's just too clunky to use is far more irritating than having filler skills in my opinion - You can ignore a bad skill, but a good skill that's awkward to use is much harder to just overlook. Needing workarounds for core Job skills is a design failure in my book.
    Agreed, abilities like this are great, but the UI hinders their usability a lot.

  10. #44610
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Hmm I generally use 1-5, Q, E, R and my 7 mouse buttons. If that isn't enough I get annoyed.
    As I said: CDs with > 60s are simply clicked on.

  11. #44611
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm sure people can play the jobs effectively enough to get by (not trying to imply you're just getting by). I just have a hard time believing that someone with a regular mouse and keyboard is able to play a class that has ~25+ abilities that are used regularly OPTIMALLY from both a gameplay perspective, but also ergonomic perspective.
    Like I said and posted in a previous post, I have 25+ abilities Keybound with a normal KB and M. Even if I didn't have MB 4/5 I'd still be able to Keybind I'd just need to use some extra Keyboard keys instead.

    Keybinding isn't really hard even without an MMO mouse. I own a g600 and choose not to use it because it feels worse than my current setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    One of the other major things I dislike are abilities that you cast on a friendly target if you're not a healer. Ones like Goad, Palisade and such. Having to manually click on your target, press the button, then click back on your DPS target is a huge usability hurdle.

    I don't think those are bad abilities per se, but they're hamstrung by the UI. Not being able to use an addon, or even functional mouseover macros, makes it a tough one to solve. Having an ability that's just too clunky to use is far more irritating than having filler skills in my opinion - You can ignore a bad skill, but a good skill that's awkward to use is much harder to just overlook. Needing workarounds for core Job skills is a design failure in my book.
    This I agree on 100%. Even basic Macros would make this game 10x better from a raiding PoV. I mostly forego Goad, etc unless really required.

  12. #44612
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I used to play MMOs with no peripherals, because I didn't feel like spending the money. Then, after a heavy raiding season in WoW I ended up going to the doctor because my wrist, pinky and thumb on my left hand had repetitive stress injuries from all the gymnastics they had to do to hit the keys, hold down modifiers, and turn to allow fingers access to the right key.

    I 100% advocate that heavy MMO gamers should invest in these kinds of peripherals because of what happened to me. Two ~$80 peripherals are more than worth it if it means I don't have to deal with pain in my hand, pay for doctors visits, pain meds or a brace AND get increased performance in games. But most MMOs that I've played don't require you to have the peripherals to play optimally, it's just a bonus, and prevents injury. In FFXIV, there's just no way I could play it without the peripherals I have, at least not at a level that I am comfortable with.
    I can't say I've ever run into uncomfortable, hand twisting situations like you seem to have. I would assume that it was a problem for a long while before it developed into full blown RSI?

    If I need to press something that requires me to take my fingers off the movement keys I'll either stand still or else use the mouse to move while I press it. Otherwise I'll adjust my hand on the keyboard for a couple of seconds so it's not uncomfortable. I find that adjusting my hand position comes quite naturally - Quite possiably from a combination of years both playing the guitar and doing Ju Jitsu. Moving my arm in/outwards at the elbow and shoulder or moving my entire hand down a row of keys is a fast, automatic response for me at this point.

    My hands are large enough that I can hit Shift and Ctrl with my Ring finger, the hotkey with my Index and usually the movement key with my middle finger without stretching nor putting pressure on my wrist. Alt I usually do with my thumb and the hotkey with either my Ring or Index. I move my hand mostly with my arm movement rather than the wrist. I never have to turn or twist my wrist to reach the keybinds, nor do I need to twist my entire arm into uncomfortable positions.

    I've been quite lucky in that I know how my body moves and how to work with it so I don't injure myself. The most discomfort I've ever had while gaming has been sweaty controllers. Thankfully that one requires a cloth and perhaps a break, not advice from a trained proffesional.

    That being said, like you, I would encourage anyone who does have discomfort or pain while gaming to invest in some new peripherals too. I've got 3 gaming controllers on my desk in front of me right now - And a steering wheel one boxed up behind me. Well made peripherals tend to really last too, so while the initial investment can look expensive, remember that you're going to get a lot of practical use out of it and be preventing yourself from getting an injury.

    Even minor discomfort should be a warning sign, no matter how small. An aching finger isn't going to get better if you keep doing the same thing over and over with it. If it keeps happening then you need to make changes before you start injuring yourself for real.

  13. #44613
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    This I agree on 100%. Even basic Macros would make this game 10x better from a raiding PoV. I mostly forego Goad, etc unless really required.
    Umm you do have macros, you can very easily create a targeting macro (typically it's always the same person that needs stuff like goad anyway). My raiding buddies do it all the time.

    Personally, I think one does not have to be THAT obsessed with DPS uptime in order not to use a ability. I mean, come on, the GCD is friggin 2.5 seconds, how long do you need to target/cast/retarget?!

    As a healer, I do it all the time, if I would need more than a GCD for that I would be a pretty crappy healer

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I can't say I've ever run into uncomfortable, hand twisting situations like you seem to have. I would assume that it was a problem for a long while before it developed into full blown RSI?
    Same. 9 yrs of raiding and I never needed, nor felt the need to use specialized peripherials. But then again I always only bind core abilities and click the ones that are more rarely used, so no finger gymnastics necessary.

    If you think computer keyboards are bad... don't try the piano or a guitar.

  14. #44614
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Umm you do have macros, you can very easily create a targeting macro (typically it's always the same person that needs stuff like goad anyway). My raiding buddies do it all the time.

    Personally, I think one does not have to be THAT obsessed with DPS uptime in order not to use a ability. I mean, come on, the GCD is friggin 2.5 seconds, how long do you need to target/cast/retarget?!

    As a healer, I do it all the time, if I would need more than a GCD for that I would be a pretty crappy healer
    As a Healer or Tank I am fine to do it. As a DPS being in the middle of a Boss fight my spatial awareness tends to drop more than the other 2 roles.

    Also, holy crap I forgot Macros existed in this game. It seems the last time I made one was back at the start of 2.0 when i first tried the game. I think I just assumed they were in the same category as Addons in this game.

  15. #44615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm sure people can play the jobs effectively enough to get by (not trying to imply you're just getting by). I just have a hard time believing that someone with a regular mouse and keyboard is able to play a class that has ~25+ abilities that are used regularly OPTIMALLY from both a gameplay perspective, but also ergonomic perspective.

    I don't doubt that people will "get by" well enough to enjoy the game with just a regular M+KB, but I also don't doubt that some of those people are the ones having difficulty doing relatively simple mechanics in mechanic heavy fights because it's practically impossible to turn the camera while moving, move to a specific spot to avoid a mechanic, pay attention to other player position, use abilities AND attack the right target if you're having to manually click abilities.

    And this is just in normal mode. Forget doing it in the higher end difficulties.
    *Raises hand* Using 1-5, Q, E, R, F, MB3, MB4, MB5. Plus Shift, Ctrl and Alt as modifiers. So that makes 48 possible keybinds with normal keyboard and a mouse with 2 sidebuttons and the scrollwheel. No real finger gymnastics either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    As a Healer or Tank I am fine to do it. As a DPS being in the middle of a Boss fight my spatial awareness tends to drop more than the other 2 roles.

    Also, holy crap I forgot Macros existed in this game. It seems the last time I made one was back at the start of 2.0 when i first tried the game. I think I just assumed they were in the same category as Addons in this game.
    I'd be careful about using macros for standard rotations, since the spells and abilities won't queue if used in a macro. And most of the time macros are a bit wonky.

    So use at your own risk!
    Thread: Ranged vs Melee which is easier in PvE?
    'Originally Posted by Thelxi'
    Dragon farts stink so ranged

  16. #44616
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manthis View Post
    I'd be careful about using macros for standard rotations, since the spells and abilities won't queue if used in a macro. And most of the time macros are a bit wonky.

    So use at your own risk!
    Most I'd use would be things like >target Party member >cast dragon sight >target last enemy. kind of things.

  17. #44617
    Different strokes for different folks I guess. Glad people don't seem to have the same problem I did, it sucked. I honestly didn't think it had anything to do with my gaming because I also did martial arts (mix of Karate, Judo and Jiu-Jitsu) and my fingers tended to get pulled, smashed, strained, etc... then I realized after being sick for like 3 weeks that the injuries were getting worse, not better, when I didn't go to the dojo but played WoW.

    I will say though, adjusting to the new peripherals took a few days each, the learning curve on some of them is pretty terrible but worth it in the end IMO.

  18. #44618
    https://twinfinite.net/2019/04/final...guchi-yoshida/

    Well this is interesting. The main focus of the article is the FF7 remake being recruited for by SE as well as a new 'co-director/producer' which further suggests thats nomuras personal trashfire in progress to replace XV. More interesting though is Yoshi P's team being rebranded to "Development Team 3" with a "large scale rpg going into production".

    So after the hot mess of XV are they just giving him XVI to pull another ARR style hit?
    Last edited by dope_danny; 2019-04-01 at 12:20 PM.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  19. #44619
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Also, holy crap I forgot Macros existed in this game. It seems the last time I made one was back at the start of 2.0 when i first tried the game. I think I just assumed they were in the same category as Addons in this game.
    Actually, macros are far more useful in FF compared to WoW, esp in crafting. You can craft entire items via macro.
    I wouldn't recommend chaining combat abilities, since there is a delay but sth like target <player> -> /ac goad -> /target <boss> should be possible.

    I have a macro that chains the instant cast ability with the resurrection. So much more comfortable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Different strokes for different folks I guess. Glad people don't seem to have the same problem I did, it sucked. I honestly didn't think it had anything to do with my gaming because I also did martial arts (mix of Karate, Judo and Jiu-Jitsu) and my fingers tended to get pulled, smashed, strained, etc... then I realized after being sick for like 3 weeks that the injuries were getting worse, not better, when I didn't go to the dojo but played WoW.
    Yeah these things can be subtle. When I play the piano and flute I have to be extremely careful in regards to posture and I have to limit practice time to half an hour per day or I will get pains immediately. Sucks but I guess my body is just feeble that way.

    When playing PC games I always paid attention that my arm/wrist/hand were straight and relaxed at all times. I need to put a little cushion below my wrist when operating the keyboard, w/o it -> ouch in a matter of hours.

  20. #44620
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post


    This is my Hotbar, the only 2 buttons on it that I press Manually are Limit Break and Sprint. Both so I don't fat finger them mid combat.
    Your setup confirms my point earlier made. If you're pressing some of those buttons there's absolutely 0 chance you're doing it with your non mouse hand, which is suboptimal. That's the entire argument. No one is saying it can't be done, we're saying it's suboptimal and doesn't need to be an issue if the game was more intelligently designed. I also don't see any keybinds on your entire second row? I assume it's just a shift modifier, but curious why it doesn't show. I haven't logged on in a while to see if my shift keybinds look the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Different strokes for different folks I guess. Glad people don't seem to have the same problem I did, it sucked. I honestly didn't think it had anything to do with my gaming because I also did martial arts (mix of Karate, Judo and Jiu-Jitsu) and my fingers tended to get pulled, smashed, strained, etc... then I realized after being sick for like 3 weeks that the injuries were getting worse, not better, when I didn't go to the dojo but played WoW.

    I will say though, adjusting to the new peripherals took a few days each, the learning curve on some of them is pretty terrible but worth it in the end IMO.
    You're not alone. Back in 2010, even when I was a youngin, I was getting RSI's from WoW. It wasn't necessarily from any gymnastics (as I'm pretty flexible in the hands/wrist from tennis), but my fingers were constantly in agonizing pain from mashing. I created an AHK macro that simply repeats any press while held down. Not only did this abate all my RSI pain, it also led to a consistently reproducible DPS increase, especially as the session dragged on and I got slower and slower.

    I've since adopted it for FF14 back in ARR to identical results. No RSI and a consistent DPS gain.

    I also got RSI's from BNS. I ended up having to macro my ani-cancel via my mouse to simply play the game. I always felt pretty awful about it, but it was a fair price to play what I considered one of the most engaging combat systems ever developed, but it definitely didn't care about your health LOL.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2019-04-01 at 01:23 PM.

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