1. #44641
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    [SNIP]

    The class would be much less interesting without it, the Combo Point and Energy mechanics alone don't make for a compelling experience.

    FF14 gets this wrong on multiple levels. First of all their buffs aren't hugely impactful the way Slice and Dice is. Slice and Dice makes you go fast. Heavy Thrust just gives you a flat damage modifer that you won't notice unless you're looking out for it. Having them separate from the combo system means you simply press them after X number of combos have been completed. That makes it feel like maintainance rather than an informed player decision.

    Not having any strong Job mechanics also presents a huge hurdle too. It means the choice to keep your buff up is purely decorative - There's almost never a situation where refreshing is the wrong call. The opportunity cost is just one GCD, so it's almost never a waste the way it would be if you burned 5 Combo Points on a Slice and Dice and the boss died 5 seconds later. Not having an actual resource cost or requiring job mechanics prevents it from ever being a meaningful choice.

    At this point however the problems have been baked in as part of the jobs themselves. To fix it and allow self buffs/debuffs to be engaging would require a complete overhaul almost from the ground up for most Jobs. As much as I would like to see it happen, I can see Squenix brushing it under the rug as being too much hard work, and the longer they leave it the harder it will get.


    I get the impression that a lot of jobs have pointless buttons just so they've got the same number of skills as everyone else. They should probably cull almost all of a Jobs skillset and scale things back to just the essentials like they do in PvP.

    Imagine if BotD was, effectively, a button that turned you Super Saiyan for 20 seconds. You can repeatedly jump, move at 4 times your normal run speed, your GCD is much faster and all your attacks are gaurenteed crits for the duration. Maybe put Wings and a Tail on the player too, make it feel awesome. It's the only cooldown you'd ever need on a single button. Then you could remove Life Surge, Blood for Blood and Battle Littany, you've essentialy combined them all into a super cooldown.

    The same is true with Jump. I would much rather have the coolest, most awesome version of Jump than multiple weaker Jumps and Dives. Just because you're playing an MMO doesn't mean it should be okay to ask players to have 12 different hotbars plastered all over their UI just to hold everything. Sometimes less is more.
    A friend of mine just started playing a couple days ago, and in walking him through some of the basics he sent me a picture of his UI and I sent him a picture of mine so he could get an idea of what you could do with it and I could help him update his.

    Before we even got to working on the UI, he commented on just how many abilities I have on my hotbars...of which I have 3 JUST for abilities used for the class I'm playing. I was on my Dragoon, which is only 63, so not even max level and I only have 4 open slots on my set of 36. And I use 26 of them consistently, with the rest being one-off uses, like the limit break button, goad, and the other cross-role actions.

    I have an MMO mouse and a gaming keypad, so the number of keybinds isn't a problem for me, I can use up to 48 without much of an issue. My friend on the other hand has a regular mouse and is playing on a laptop, so I'm not sure how exactly he'll be able to comfortably play ANY of the classes in this game. I remember before getting my mouse and keypad, in WoW, I had issues using more than ~15 because of how I prefer my movement keys to be bound and how I needed to contort my hand to reach some of the keys. I ended up getting ergonomic injuries from it which is why I have the MMO mouse and keypad now.

    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Well, that was a short MSQ continuation. Nothing unexpected happened either.
    Hmm.
    Yeah the MSQ in this patch was disappointingly short and not very informative, at least for those who paid attention to Tokyo Fan Fest. All of the content added in this patch can be cleared in a couple hours.

  2. #44642
    MSQ was very underwhelming.

    Not bad but just underwhelming. Just didn't set up Shadowbringers that much.

  3. #44643
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Some classes are simply built around these kinds of things though. If it's not simply a buff/debuff it's a DoT that you have to maintain. I agree that it shouldn't just be a button to press to maintain it, so I agree on that point, but I don't take issue with maintaining a buff/debuff as a concept.

    As you said, I think the biggest issue is how the encounters are designed. If core job mechanics can't be effectively utilized, or (like in my case) people stop using their favorite class because of how that class mechanic just doesn't really mesh well with how encounters are designed, that's a bad thing.
    But even looking at a simple DoT. It's still just maintenance/binary if the DoT doesn't do anything and IMO bad design. Look at BLM Thunder for comparison. That ticking gives procs which allows you to do something you couldn't before. That is good design (in theory, application does matter though). I believe Warlocks/SPriests in WoW have similar mechanics with DoTs.

    If job design dictated:

    DoT costs 40% resource, but lasts 30s, dealing average potency over time, but while active any damage dealt to the Dotted target reduces cooldowns of all abilities currently on CD, that is a noticeable effect, drives decision trees and has an opportunity cost if there's something else that costs 40% resource but offers a competing, but different effect. I.e. if I haven't burned any CDs, the CDR isn't as valuable as burst damage, or what if mechanics actually forced me to make decisions.

    That to me is good design, especially when compared against a binary maintenance DoT (a la old fracture/Phlebotomize)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    The thing is, Slice and Dice itself is not interesting part of it, managing multiple resources is. I'd be fine with something like this if there were at least several buffs you had to choose from (like warlock curses or shaman totems, but better balanced between each other).
    Agreed, and although my knowledge of Rogue is low, my understanding is that it's a binary decision (with minor nuance as Zebra mentioned). It's like Ret's TV or DS. It's not a choice, it's binary. If 2+ use DS, otherwise TV. That's it. If SND is less than x seconds, you refresh it, if not, you Evis. That's binary (again, I don't know how Rogue plays atm, but this is my limited understanding).

    While I'm ok with the concept especially since it does add speed to gameplay which is a valid feedback mechanism, I don't consider it good design.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I get the impression that a lot of jobs have pointless buttons just so they've got the same number of skills as everyone else. They should probably cull almost all of a Jobs skillset and scale things back to just the essentials like they do in PvP.

    Imagine if BotD was, effectively, a button that turned you Super Saiyan for 20 seconds. You can repeatedly jump, move at 4 times your normal run speed, your GCD is much faster and all your attacks are gaurenteed crits for the duration. Maybe put Wings and a Tail on the player too, make it feel awesome. It's the only cooldown you'd ever need on a single button. Then you could remove Life Surge, Blood for Blood and Battle Littany, you've essentialy combined them all into a super cooldown.

    The same is true with Jump. I would much rather have the coolest, most awesome version of Jump than multiple weaker Jumps and Dives. Just because you're playing an MMO doesn't mean it should be okay to ask players to have 12 different hotbars plastered all over their UI just to hold everything. Sometimes less is more.
    I'm inclined to agree. I think Life Surge, BL, and B4B are all stupid ass boring CDs. I don't need 3 CDs that offer absolutely 0 gameplay impact. I'd much rather have one that impact gameplay feel/feedback like your example (tuning notwithstanding).

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game.
    Based on anecdotes they simply play suboptimally and are ok with it. I mean for example, I click Tempered Will because I'm out of keybinds I want to use for it. It's largely irrelevant except for like 2 encounters, and you use it like 1-2x so clicking isn't hard.

    But that's not justifying it, that's me working around bad design. Speaking personally, they should just bake the effect into Sheltron as a passive. I think it's ok if PLD is the immovable object, you can have DRK/WAR and GUN leaping around like madmen after knockbacks just fine.

    That's an easy one button fix and adds resource management depth simultaneously.

  4. #44644
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    But even looking at a simple DoT. It's still just maintenance/binary if the DoT doesn't do anything and IMO bad design. [SNIP]

    If job design dictated:

    DoT costs 40% resource, but lasts 30s, dealing average potency over time, but while active any damage dealt to the Dotted target reduces cooldowns of all abilities currently on CD, that is a noticeable effect, drives decision trees and has an opportunity cost if there's something else that costs 40% resource but offers a competing, but different effect. I.e. if I haven't burned any CDs, the CDR isn't as valuable as burst damage, or what if mechanics actually forced me to make decisions.

    That to me is good design, especially when compared against a binary maintenance DoT (a la old fracture/Phlebotomize)
    Fair point, though simple DoT maintenance with no other interactions is a staple of DoT based classes like Warlock and Summoner, as DoT's in these cases are just how they deal the majority of their damage. In the case of SMN though, having the DoT's up increases the damage of one of their direct damage spells so there is SOME interaction, but overall, it's still just optimal to have them all rolling as much as possible, that interaction doesn't really change how you play the class. For other classes not based around DoTs, I 100% agree that having other interactions aside from a simple maintenance DoT is much better design. BRD and BLM work this way. The rest (IIRC) don't really have any interaction outside of simple maintenance.

    Agreed, and although my knowledge of Rogue is low, my understanding is that it's a binary decision (with minor nuance as Zebra mentioned). It's like Ret's TV or DS. It's not a choice, it's binary. If 2+ use DS, otherwise TV. That's it. If SND is less than x seconds, you refresh it, if not, you Evis. That's binary (again, I don't know how Rogue plays atm, but this is my limited understanding).

    While I'm ok with the concept especially since it does add speed to gameplay which is a valid feedback mechanism, I don't consider it good design.
    I think having nuanced decision making, even on a somewhat binary decision like in the case of Rogue and Paladin, is fine when the alternative as we've seen is no nuance whatsoever. The main difference with Rogue and Paladin, is that it takes resources to activate those abilities, resources you had to spend time building and could spend on other abilities. That is more opportunity cost and a weightier decision that what most classes in FFXIV have, where these kinds of abilities are a single button press that don't cost anything but TP (which is a pointless resource).

    Based on anecdotes they simply play suboptimally and are ok with it. I mean for example, I click Tempered Will because I'm out of keybinds I want to use for it. It's largely irrelevant except for like 2 encounters, and you use it like 1-2x so clicking isn't hard.
    And that, to me, is just stupid. I can't say unacceptable because we've been dealing with this for years and apparently done fine (or maybe not....maybe most of those failed dungeon/trial/raid runs with people unable to make the DPS check, or do the encounter mechanics are struggling and/or failing because of just how difficult it is for them to manage the controls and encounter mechanics while performing their job role).

    They really need to reduce the number of buttons, combine buttons for combos, reduce or combine the cooldowns (really, we need 4+ cooldowns for every class?) and get rid of the role actions that serve no purpose and make the relevant ones baseline for the class toolkit.

    But that's not justifying it, that's me working around bad design. Speaking personally, they should just bake the effect into Sheltron as a passive. I think it's ok if PLD is the immovable object, you can have DRK/WAR and GUN leaping around like madmen after knockbacks just fine.

    That's an easy one button fix and adds resource management depth simultaneously.
    And that is the core of the issue I think, we've been working around bad design for years. Not everyone has the skills or ability to work around fewer keybinds and still perform optimally. But that shouldn't be a fall back option, performing sub optimally because people simply can't feasibly access the class abilities is unacceptable.

    They need to take a hard look at their class designs and make some pretty significant changes, because their current design is simply not sustainable, we're already starved for hotbar space, how are they going to cope with adding new abilities or job mechanics if there's nowhere to put the abilities, or if some people are simply unable to use them because of whatever limitations they have?

  5. #44645
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Just didn't set up Shadowbringers that much.
    Fine with me, I hate cliffhangers anyway.

  6. #44646
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Fine with me, I hate cliffhangers anyway.
    Technically it could be a cliffhanger that was just set up so long ago people forgot if Nero's "oh my" moment he never explained when scanning something in a certain raid is being called back to.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  7. #44647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    A friend of mine just started playing a couple days ago, and in walking him through some of the basics he sent me a picture of his UI and I sent him a picture of mine so he could get an idea of what you could do with it and I could help him update his.

    Before we even got to working on the UI, he commented on just how many abilities I have on my hotbars...of which I have 3 JUST for abilities used for the class I'm playing. I was on my Dragoon, which is only 63, so not even max level and I only have 4 open slots on my set of 36. And I use 26 of them consistently, with the rest being one-off uses, like the limit break button, goad, and the other cross-role actions.

    I have an MMO mouse and a gaming keypad, so the number of keybinds isn't a problem for me, I can use up to 48 without much of an issue. My friend on the other hand has a regular mouse and is playing on a laptop, so I'm not sure how exactly he'll be able to comfortably play ANY of the classes in this game. I remember before getting my mouse and keypad, in WoW, I had issues using more than ~15 because of how I prefer my movement keys to be bound and how I needed to contort my hand to reach some of the keys. I ended up getting ergonomic injuries from it which is why I have the MMO mouse and keypad now.

    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game.



    Yeah the MSQ in this patch was disappointingly short and not very informative, at least for those who paid attention to Tokyo Fan Fest. All of the content added in this patch can be cleared in a couple hours.
    Comtrollers are actually easy as all hell

    I set it up so i only swap between bars 1 and 2 with a click. That is apready 48 skills

    I then go w or another trick where you can have a bar setup to appear when you hold l2 and r2 or vice versa..i tie my upper bars to my third bar(pet for smn) and bam all skills(ok pre role skill rework) ready to go with spare spaces(another 24) soo yeah not bad at all since i just double tap for the w bar stuff.

    It may be even better the mouse and keyboard actually

  8. #44648
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Comtrollers are actually easy as all hell

    I set it up so i only swap between bars 1 and 2 with a click. That is apready 48 skills

    I then go w or another trick where you can have a bar setup to appear when you hold l2 and r2 or vice versa..i tie my upper bars to my third bar(pet for smn) and bam all skills(ok pre role skill rework) ready to go with spare spaces(another 24) soo yeah not bad at all since i just double tap for the w bar stuff.

    It may be even better the mouse and keyboard actually
    On a PS4 that sounds great. On a PC that does sounds pretty amazing too, but still requires the purchase of a controller, and I wouldn't recommend getting a cheap one if you're going to be playing for long periods of time (I have a cheap controller, they suck). Was kind of alluding to the idea that for people to play FFXIV optimally, it's practically impossible to do it natively on a PC (just regular mouse and keyboard) without buying some kind of peripheral.

    That said, my friend owns a PS4 and therefore has a PS4 controller he could use on PC. I'll recommend that to him and see what he thinks.

  9. #44649
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    On a PS4 that sounds great. On a PC that does sounds pretty amazing too, but still requires the purchase of a controller, and I wouldn't recommend getting a cheap one if you're going to be playing for long periods of time (I have a cheap controller, they suck). Was kind of alluding to the idea that for people to play FFXIV optimally, it's practically impossible to do it natively on a PC (just regular mouse and keyboard) without buying some kind of peripheral.

    That said, my friend owns a PS4 and therefore has a PS4 controller he could use on PC. I'll recommend that to him and see what he thinks.
    Ahhh i gotcha. Yeeah i am a big console gamer and prefer controllers sooo i had them already and yeah i know how much the cheap ones suck.

    Though this brings up an interesting question..could it be if done RIGHT mmos with a crazy large number of skills are better on a controller then mouse and keyboard despite the often believed idea of needing to simplify?

    I mean i can easily get 3+ action bars setup for easy use with 2 visible at all times(btw on non smn i use my upper bar to keep track of buffs/timed skills so that i can always see them)

  10. #44650
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Ahhh i gotcha. Yeeah i am a big console gamer and prefer controllers sooo i had them already and yeah i know how much the cheap ones suck.

    Though this brings up an interesting question..could it be if done RIGHT mmos with a crazy large number of skills are better on a controller then mouse and keyboard despite the often believed idea of needing to simplify?

    I mean i can easily get 3+ action bars setup for easy use with 2 visible at all times(btw on non smn i use my upper bar to keep track of buffs/timed skills so that i can always see them)
    I mean... I use a keyboard and a regular, non-gaming mouse without buttons and I have 25 binds with 1 or more role action bound across all jobs, and I do just fine. I click the odd things that aren't important/reaction, like BRD MP/TP regen. It's all about how you craft your UI, how you keybind it and use the same keybinds for memory, and how you make the things you have to see easily seen, while hiding the clutter. The idea that it's "practically impossible" to play without a controller or a gaming mouse is just ridiculous. For reference, my BRD has 20 active and my DRG has 23, role actions taking up a few unused. I remember all of the binds to the many jobs I play and I play them in savage.

    That's not to say I don't think the game has or doesn't have too many abilities for some classes, or some could be baked into other abilities, but I have also played WoW, which means I understand the importance of having too few abilities, too. Maybe it can easily be overwhelming for newer players, but you slowly learn as you level your abilities to comfortably learn your rotations and binds. So..why is that a bad thing? It gives you reason to improve, to do better, or you just..don't.
    Last edited by La; 2019-03-31 at 04:51 AM.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  11. #44651
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    I just don't like abilities that don't do much.
    A 10% damage buff you have to keep up just to have sth. to keep up is one of these things, esp if the button stands outside of any rotation and constantly interrupts the flow of the class.
    Same goes for having a gazillion little cooldowns that all do the same thing. Boring.

  12. #44652
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Make crusader stance less useless please SQEX.

  13. #44653
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Not having any strong Job mechanics also presents a huge hurdle too. It means the choice to keep your buff up is purely decorative - There's almost never a situation where refreshing is the wrong call. The opportunity cost is just one GCD, so it's almost never a waste the way it would be if you burned 5 Combo Points on a Slice and Dice and the boss died 5 seconds later. Not having an actual resource cost or requiring job mechanics prevents it from ever being a meaningful choice.

    At this point however the problems have been baked in as part of the jobs themselves. To fix it and allow self buffs/debuffs to be engaging would require a complete overhaul almost from the ground up for most Jobs. As much as I would like to see it happen, I can see Squenix brushing it under the rug as being too much hard work, and the longer they leave it the harder it will get.
    They have been slowly working towards changing Jobs to have Self-Buffs be a lot more useful, thus punishing to DPS if used incorrectly. Samurai have quite a few different buttons which very easily separate good SAMs from bad SAMs. Much of their proper Rotation also requires good positioning to maximise Kenki to allow you to Buff certain moves throughout combat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game..
    I play all Jobs effectively using just a Normal Keyboard and a Mouse that has MB4/5. Also being such a long GCD, I think a lot of people are entirely comfortable with just clicking.

  14. #44654
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I play all Jobs effectively using just a Normal Keyboard and a Mouse that has MB4/5. Also being such a long GCD, I think a lot of people are entirely comfortable with just clicking.
    Until you get into savage.
    I only click stuff with CDs > 60s but even that can get annoying fast in heavy movement encounters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Make crusader stance less useless please SQEX.
    Is that the "beefs up autohit damage" one from PLD?
    Imho what I want to see is tank stances getting taken off the GCD.

  15. #44655
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Until you get into savage.
    I only click stuff with CDs > 60s but even that can get annoying fast in heavy movement encounters.


    This is my Hotbar, the only 2 buttons on it that I press Manually are Limit Break and Sprint. Both so I don't fat finger them mid combat.

  16. #44656
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Is that the "beefs up autohit damage" one from PLD?
    Imho what I want to see is tank stances getting taken off the GCD.
    Oh right, it's cleric stance in english, that thing.

  17. #44657
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    They have been slowly working towards changing Jobs to have Self-Buffs be a lot more useful, thus punishing to DPS if used incorrectly. Samurai have quite a few different buttons which very easily separate good SAMs from bad SAMs. Much of their proper Rotation also requires good positioning to maximise Kenki to allow you to Buff certain moves throughout combat.
    AFAIK it's as interesting as "buff your 1 and 3 symbol abilities and then spend excess Kenki on direct damage". And all melee have positionals, though it's one of the first things I would have dropped from the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  18. #44658
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    AFAIK it's as interesting as "buff your 1 and 3 symbol abilities and then spend excess Kenki on direct damage". And all melee have positionals, though it's one of the first things I would have dropped from the game.
    That's how most WoW classes work as well. it's not a bad thing. and most classes have an ability or 2 they have to actively keep an eye on.

  19. #44659
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV.
    Personally, I use ` to 6, QERT, FG, \ZXC as well as the 2 side buttons on my mouse for keybinds. Then I use Shift, Ctrl and Alt and the previous keys to bind pretty much everything I need. I do click things that get used out of combat exclusively, like Mounting, Teleport and so on to save on binds. I can't say if it'll work for everyone else, but those have worked for me across most MMO's I've played.

    I have occasionally played with my Street Fighter arcade stick just for the funnies. It wasn't awful, but it was still very lacking compared to a Keyboard and Mouse. I expect that regular controllers wouldn't have the same problems however, having a Right Stick makes navigating a 3D world much easier.

    Though with FF14 I've got like... 6 (?) different hotbars over the screen to hold everything I'm going to need to use. Along with the cluttered Party and Raid UI, as well as Job Gauges and other large UI elements, it doesn't leave a whole lot of space free for actually seeing what's going on around me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And that is the core of the issue I think, we've been working around bad design for years. Not everyone has the skills or ability to work around fewer keybinds and still perform optimally. But that shouldn't be a fall back option, performing sub optimally because people simply can't feasibly access the class abilities is unacceptable.
    One of the other major things I dislike are abilities that you cast on a friendly target if you're not a healer. Ones like Goad, Palisade and such. Having to manually click on your target, press the button, then click back on your DPS target is a huge usability hurdle.

    I don't think those are bad abilities per se, but they're hamstrung by the UI. Not being able to use an addon, or even functional mouseover macros, makes it a tough one to solve. Having an ability that's just too clunky to use is far more irritating than having filler skills in my opinion - You can ignore a bad skill, but a good skill that's awkward to use is much harder to just overlook. Needing workarounds for core Job skills is a design failure in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    That's not to say I don't think the game has or doesn't have too many abilities for some classes, or some could be baked into other abilities, but I have also played WoW, which means I understand the importance of having too few abilities, too. Maybe it can easily be overwhelming for newer players, but you slowly learn as you level your abilities to comfortably learn your rotations and binds. So..why is that a bad thing? It gives you reason to improve, to do better, or you just..don't.
    The issue with this line of thought is the order which you learn abilities. Very often you're going to get important game changing ones 55+ levels into the game, at which point you've already gotten comfortable with your existing keybinds and rotations and have spent tens of hours building up the muscle memory.

    Having to relearn your Job and your Binds every 6-10 levels makes for a very disjointed experience, and punishes you for getting familiar with your Job rather than rewards you. You can't really learn your jobs core mechanics because most just don't have one defining set and rely instead on universal game mechanics.

    On the subject of WoW, I think it lands in that sweet spot of having about the right number of abilities. I can fit them on on 2 hotbars, and have the extra bar at the side for things like Mounts, Healthstones, Hearthstone and so on. At the same time, almost all of the abilities you have tend to be multi-purpose and play off each other in a way that FF14's combos just don't.

    For the record, I'm playing a Paladin. I don't feel as though any of the skills I have are useless in any form or capacity, I do feel as though my Class is limited in some areas but that it was an intentional choice rather than developer forgetfulness. I'm not sure if the same is true for other classes, but honestly, I think Blizzard have done a pretty solid job all in all. A smaller set of quality abilities is far more preferable than a broader set of situational ones to me.

  20. #44660
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I play all Jobs effectively using just a Normal Keyboard and a Mouse that has MB4/5. Also being such a long GCD, I think a lot of people are entirely comfortable with just clicking.
    I'm sure people can play the jobs effectively enough to get by (not trying to imply you're just getting by). I just have a hard time believing that someone with a regular mouse and keyboard is able to play a class that has ~25+ abilities that are used regularly OPTIMALLY from both a gameplay perspective, but also ergonomic perspective.

    I don't doubt that people will "get by" well enough to enjoy the game with just a regular M+KB, but I also don't doubt that some of those people are the ones having difficulty doing relatively simple mechanics in mechanic heavy fights because it's practically impossible to turn the camera while moving, move to a specific spot to avoid a mechanic, pay attention to other player position, use abilities AND attack the right target if you're having to manually click abilities.

    And this is just in normal mode. Forget doing it in the higher end difficulties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Personally, I use ` to 6, QERT, FG, \ZXC as well as the 2 side buttons on my mouse for keybinds. Then I use Shift, Ctrl and Alt and the previous keys to bind pretty much everything I need. I do click things that get used out of combat exclusively, like Mounting, Teleport and so on to save on binds. I can't say if it'll work for everyone else, but those have worked for me across most MMO's I've played.

    I have occasionally played with my Street Fighter arcade stick just for the funnies. It wasn't awful, but it was still very lacking compared to a Keyboard and Mouse. I expect that regular controllers wouldn't have the same problems however, having a Right Stick makes navigating a 3D world much easier.

    Though with FF14 I've got like... 6 (?) different hotbars over the screen to hold everything I'm going to need to use. Along with the cluttered Party and Raid UI, as well as Job Gauges and other large UI elements, it doesn't leave a whole lot of space free for actually seeing what's going on around me.
    I used to play MMOs with no peripherals, because I didn't feel like spending the money. Then, after a heavy raiding season in WoW I ended up going to the doctor because my wrist, pinky and thumb on my left hand had repetitive stress injuries from all the gymnastics they had to do to hit the keys, hold down modifiers, and turn to allow fingers access to the right key.

    I 100% advocate that heavy MMO gamers should invest in these kinds of peripherals because of what happened to me. Two ~$80 peripherals are more than worth it if it means I don't have to deal with pain in my hand, pay for doctors visits, pain meds or a brace AND get increased performance in games. But most MMOs that I've played don't require you to have the peripherals to play optimally, it's just a bonus, and prevents injury. In FFXIV, there's just no way I could play it without the peripherals I have, at least not at a level that I am comfortable with.

    One of the other major things I dislike are abilities that you cast on a friendly target if you're not a healer. Ones like Goad, Palisade and such. Having to manually click on your target, press the button, then click back on your DPS target is a huge usability hurdle.

    I don't think those are bad abilities per se, but they're hamstrung by the UI. Not being able to use an addon, or even functional mouseover macros, makes it a tough one to solve. Having an ability that's just too clunky to use is far more irritating than having filler skills in my opinion - You can ignore a bad skill, but a good skill that's awkward to use is much harder to just overlook. Needing workarounds for core Job skills is a design failure in my book.
    Agreed, abilities like this are great, but the UI hinders their usability a lot.

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