1. #44641
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    There can be some interesting play in these types of things. Like a WoW Rogues Slice and Dice (Or roll the bones, whatever it is now) buff, where the play is in keeping the buff running while also using your combo points on your other finishers. That creates an interesting dynamic, where you've got to decide if you've got enough time to build combo points for another finisher, should pool your energy and wait for your current Slice and Dice to run out to recast, or as in previous expansions, use a finisher with less than 5 points so as not to waste your combo points.

    Obviously that example relies on other core class mechanics to make it work, but having those mechanics tied to an important buff makes it an interesting and crucial part of your gameplay. Simple maintainance buffs/debuffs can be an important part of the overall package.

    The problem FF14 has is that not many of it's Jobs have their own unique mechanics, most usually have unique gimicks, but not actual mechanical differences. The only way they can really add these kinds of buffs is as "Press this button once every 30 seconds" type skills. That doesn't make for an interesting decision regarding how you're going to allocate your resources the same way Combo Points and Energy do, it reduces the play around the ability to pressing it pre-determined intervals.
    Also @Katchii

    Speaking personally - I don't really think anything that qualifies as a maintenance buff as good design. Even if there's a binary choice associated. I look at something like DRG and I see Heavy Thrust. This is a pointless button. We all agree there, but there's still so much room for improvement (if the goal is engagement/depth). Jumps shouldn't be just bland DPS buttons to press on CD. Not only that, they should be used much more frequently and there should be methods to accrue, save, or dump them as necessary. That should be the DRGs main focus. Look at BotD. It doesn't even need to be a button anymore. Just make it a passive in combat.

    I could go on, but the issue IMO is that it all stems back to encounter design. You can design jobs with more decision points/trees, but if encounters never utilize them, they're irrelevant (see half of each jobs kit). I honestly think the game needs a shift in design where the mechanics are much more varied and frequent with lower stakes.

    Pushing a button should always allow you to do something you couldn't otherwise. Unlocking skills/abilities, resource management, utility/mobility. If it's a pointless number change that you cannot feel, it's a pointless button IMO.

  2. #44642
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Mine is currently only in the 40's, and the job is absolutely awful to play. I've never held "it gets better at end game" to be a reasonable argument in it's favour - Having to slog through a broken mess to get to the "good" part of a job is just terrible for the player.
    Tbf as much as I enjoy FFXIV that is 90% of the game for every Job. SAM and RDM were only a bit better since they start at 50 thus have already got some of their core abilties. I find the only Classes that don't feel like a trainwreck Pre-50/60ish is AST, WHM and to some extent MNK.

  3. #44643
    Quote Originally Posted by leviathonlx View Post
    MSQ The ending of SB was anticlimatic and disappointing to say the least and we got nothing for the how or the why we're going to the 1st.
    Honestly, I was surprised how short it was for the finale and yes, how anticlimactic it felt compared to past ones. This feeling is amplified by the tone the trailer set.

    (Going to put the whole thing in spoilers since this main thread still has some players noting they're still experiencing all expansion stories)

    Think back:

    A Realm Reborn: Final MSQ we are just totally broken. We lose everything we've built up and we're branded as assassins. We flee to Ishgard alongside Tataru and Alphinaud.
    Heavensward Trailer: Depicts that MSQ in snippets and starts with the long, sullen trudge through the snow into Ishgard. We see how crestfallen Alphinaud and Tataru look and the Warrior of Light is shown to be angry in Ul'dah and rather sullen going into Ishgard.

    Heavensward: Final MSQ is disastrous with the Eorzean Alliance yanked into a war they weren't prepared to wage thanks to the Griffon, but ready and willing to commit to the liberation of Ala Mhigo. We were marching in from a position of strength after ARR ended at a place of weakness.
    Stormblood Trailer: Warrior of Light and (we now know Lyse) train atop the giant statue as the rebellion prepares for war below. We're then shown the battle will extend across the world to the far east.

    With the Shadowbringers trailer, we did see the Stormblood showdown of the Warrior of Light fighting Zenos, but with the Warrior of Light seeming so haggard and exhausted, the barren landscape, and the gremlin taunting him, I was expecting a little more of a "all seems lost" MSQ conclusion putting us more in that situation. Of course, if we're going to The First, that's hard to put in place pre-expansion. I guess I was expecting something more akin to A Realm Reborn's ending with a really weighted climax to take us so low in the trailer.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Tbf as much as I enjoy FFXIV that is 90% of the game for every Job. SAM and RDM were only a bit better since they start at 50 thus have already got some of their core abilties. I find the only Classes that don't feel like a trainwreck Pre-50/60ish is AST, WHM and to some extent MNK.
    I felt NIN was a well done gradual build. They never felt like they were particularly lacking and the expanding toolset felt more natural and enjoyable. At least from ARR through HW. I feel like the ability prune and the new SB abilities were extremely disappointing. I hope they get some of the ninjutsu we've seen other shinobi using.



    That brings a thought.... I wonder if we'll be able to freely move from The First to The Source in Shadowbringers or if the story will be more akin to WoW's Warlords where, for a time, we're stuck on one side. If so, will we meet job users of The First and we'll learn new skills from them or will we be able to move freely between the two via the Crystal Tower and we'll continue training with job quests from Eorzea. Hmmm.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2019-03-27 at 01:41 PM.

  4. #44644
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post

    That brings a thought.... I wonder if we'll be able to freely move from The First to The Source in Shadowbringers or if the story will be more akin to WoW's Warlords where, for a time, we're stuck on one side. If so, will we meet job users of The First and we'll learn new skills from them or will we be able to move freely between the two via the Crystal Tower and we'll continue training with job quests from Eorzea. Hmmm.
    Given the trailer i imagine storywise we are stuck on the First with the scions either in the bodies of their first world counterparts or actually interacting with those like a Gunbreaker Thancred and BLM 'Matoya' while characters like Cid and the Scions back home deal with the black rose situation and probably get some unwanted/expected help from Elezenos who sees killing a lot of empire soldiers as a way to home his skills in his new body while helping his 'friend' in a 'gotta catch up or they will leave me behind' vegeta kind of way. Or going wakes the main scions up and you fall into a coma and they are playable using the new system at intervals in the MSQ going 'meanwhile, back on the 14th'
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  5. #44645
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Also @Katchii

    Speaking personally - I don't really think anything that qualifies as a maintenance buff as good design. Even if there's a binary choice associated. I look at something like DRG and I see Heavy Thrust. This is a pointless button. We all agree there, but there's still so much room for improvement (if the goal is engagement/depth). Jumps shouldn't be just bland DPS buttons to press on CD. Not only that, they should be used much more frequently and there should be methods to accrue, save, or dump them as necessary. That should be the DRGs main focus. Look at BotD. It doesn't even need to be a button anymore. Just make it a passive in combat.

    I could go on, but the issue IMO is that it all stems back to encounter design. You can design jobs with more decision points/trees, but if encounters never utilize them, they're irrelevant (see half of each jobs kit). I honestly think the game needs a shift in design where the mechanics are much more varied and frequent with lower stakes.

    Pushing a button should always allow you to do something you couldn't otherwise. Unlocking skills/abilities, resource management, utility/mobility. If it's a pointless number change that you cannot feel, it's a pointless button IMO.
    Some classes are simply built around these kinds of things though. If it's not simply a buff/debuff it's a DoT that you have to maintain. I agree that it shouldn't just be a button to press to maintain it, so I agree on that point, but I don't take issue with maintaining a buff/debuff as a concept.

    As you said, I think the biggest issue is how the encounters are designed. If core job mechanics can't be effectively utilized, or (like in my case) people stop using their favorite class because of how that class mechanic just doesn't really mesh well with how encounters are designed, that's a bad thing.

  6. #44646
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Honestly I'd prefer if they were effeminate (relatively) speaking male, not because of any fetish but because it'd be a better contrast to typical stereotype. Like Granyala said, a reverse to the Au Ra would be more unique as opposed to more of the same.
    Now I am envisioning Having these tall, serious as a heart attack, female Viera, and these miniscule, hyper-energetic, overly carefree, chibi bunny boys. It'll probably not go that way.

    I'm thinking more likely it'll be something like This Guy but with bunny ears.

  7. #44647
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Honestly, I was surprised how short it was for the finale and yes, how anticlimactic it felt compared to past ones. This feeling is amplified by the tone the trailer set.

    (Going to put the whole thing in spoilers since this main thread still has some players noting they're still experiencing all expansion stories)

    Think back:

    A Realm Reborn: Final MSQ we are just totally broken. We lose everything we've built up and we're branded as assassins. We flee to Ishgard alongside Tataru and Alphinaud.
    Heavensward Trailer: Depicts that MSQ in snippets and starts with the long, sullen trudge through the snow into Ishgard. We see how crestfallen Alphinaud and Tataru look and the Warrior of Light is shown to be angry in Ul'dah and rather sullen going into Ishgard.

    Heavensward: Final MSQ is disastrous with the Eorzean Alliance yanked into a war they weren't prepared to wage thanks to the Griffon, but ready and willing to commit to the liberation of Ala Mhigo. We were marching in from a position of strength after ARR ended at a place of weakness.
    Stormblood Trailer: Warrior of Light and (we now know Lyse) train atop the giant statue as the rebellion prepares for war below. We're then shown the battle will extend across the world to the far east.

    With the Shadowbringers trailer, we did see the Stormblood showdown of the Warrior of Light fighting Zenos, but with the Warrior of Light seeming so haggard and exhausted, the barren landscape, and the gremlin taunting him, I was expecting a little more of a "all seems lost" MSQ conclusion putting us more in that situation. Of course, if we're going to The First, that's hard to put in place pre-expansion. I guess I was expecting something more akin to A Realm Reborn's ending with a really weighted climax to take us so low in the trailer.


    - - - Updated - - -



    I felt NIN was a well done gradual build. They never felt like they were particularly lacking and the expanding toolset felt more natural and enjoyable. At least from ARR through HW. I feel like the ability prune and the new SB abilities were extremely disappointing. I hope they get some of the ninjutsu we've seen other shinobi using.



    That brings a thought.... I wonder if we'll be able to freely move from The First to The Source in Shadowbringers or if the story will be more akin to WoW's Warlords where, for a time, we're stuck on one side. If so, will we meet job users of The First and we'll learn new skills from them or will we be able to move freely between the two via the Crystal Tower and we'll continue training with job quests from Eorzea. Hmmm.
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Given the trailer i imagine storywise we are stuck on the First with the scions either in the bodies of their first world counterparts or actually interacting with those like a Gunbreaker Thancred and BLM 'Matoya' while characters like Cid and the Scions back home deal with the black rose situation and probably get some unwanted/expected help from Elezenos who sees killing a lot of empire soldiers as a way to home his skills in his new body while helping his 'friend' in a 'gotta catch up or they will leave me behind' vegeta kind of way. Or going wakes the main scions up and you fall into a coma and they are playable using the new system at intervals in the MSQ going 'meanwhile, back on the 14th'
    I have a feeling it's going to be very Warlords-ish in that you're stuck there for a certain period of time until you progress far enough in the MSQ. If that's the case I doubt it would be a lengthy period of time at all, just long enough to acclimate to the new surroundings and familiarize yourself with whatever power/item/beacon you're using to traverse the space between worlds. That hooded guy at the end of the Stormblood MSQ will likely be involved very early and will accommodate this transition pretty quickly.

  8. #44648
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    There can be some interesting play in these types of things. Like a WoW Rogues Slice and Dice (Or roll the bones, whatever it is now) buff, where the play is in keeping the buff running while also using your combo points on your other finishers. That creates an interesting dynamic, where you've got to decide if you've got enough time to build combo points for another finisher, should pool your energy and wait for your current Slice and Dice to run out to recast, or as in previous expansions, use a finisher with less than 5 points so as not to waste your combo points.
    The thing is, Slice and Dice itself is not interesting part of it, managing multiple resources is. I'd be fine with something like this if there were at least several buffs you had to choose from (like warlock curses or shaman totems, but better balanced between each other).
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  9. #44649
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    The thing is, Slice and Dice itself is not interesting part of it, managing multiple resources is. I'd be fine with something like this if there were at least several buffs you had to choose from (like warlock curses or shaman totems, but better balanced between each other).
    Without Slice and Dice, Rogues would just use Sinister Strike until 5 points, Evicerate and repeat ad infinitum. The game play needs something to shake things up or else it becomes rote and predictable. Having a timed buff that costs resources is one way - It asks you to plan ahead if you want to squeeze out the most DPS possible. The effect of Slice and Dice is immediately noticable and impactful. It also has broader considerations with Poisons, Procs and so on too.

    There are times when you don't want to refresh it, and instead want to use your Combo Points on another finisher (Things are about to die soon). Times where you might want to skip using it all together (Bursting down adds or solo play). Times where you might want to let it drop, but have the Combo Points saved for later (phase changes and disconnects). Using it well is a mixture of experience and intuition, and can help separate the good Rogues from the bad ones.

    The class would be much less interesting without it, the Combo Point and Energy mechanics alone don't make for a compelling experience.

    FF14 gets this wrong on multiple levels. First of all their buffs aren't hugely impactful the way Slice and Dice is. Slice and Dice makes you go fast. Heavy Thrust just gives you a flat damage modifer that you won't notice unless you're looking out for it. Having them separate from the combo system means you simply press them after X number of combos have been completed. That makes it feel like maintainance rather than an informed player decision.

    Not having any strong Job mechanics also presents a huge hurdle too. It means the choice to keep your buff up is purely decorative - There's almost never a situation where refreshing is the wrong call. The opportunity cost is just one GCD, so it's almost never a waste the way it would be if you burned 5 Combo Points on a Slice and Dice and the boss died 5 seconds later. Not having an actual resource cost or requiring job mechanics prevents it from ever being a meaningful choice.

    At this point however the problems have been baked in as part of the jobs themselves. To fix it and allow self buffs/debuffs to be engaging would require a complete overhaul almost from the ground up for most Jobs. As much as I would like to see it happen, I can see Squenix brushing it under the rug as being too much hard work, and the longer they leave it the harder it will get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Pushing a button should always allow you to do something you couldn't otherwise. Unlocking skills/abilities, resource management, utility/mobility. If it's a pointless number change that you cannot feel, it's a pointless button IMO.
    I get the impression that a lot of jobs have pointless buttons just so they've got the same number of skills as everyone else. They should probably cull almost all of a Jobs skillset and scale things back to just the essentials like they do in PvP.

    Imagine if BotD was, effectively, a button that turned you Super Saiyan for 20 seconds. You can repeatedly jump, move at 4 times your normal run speed, your GCD is much faster and all your attacks are gaurenteed crits for the duration. Maybe put Wings and a Tail on the player too, make it feel awesome. It's the only cooldown you'd ever need on a single button. Then you could remove Life Surge, Blood for Blood and Battle Littany, you've essentialy combined them all into a super cooldown.

    The same is true with Jump. I would much rather have the coolest, most awesome version of Jump than multiple weaker Jumps and Dives. Just because you're playing an MMO doesn't mean it should be okay to ask players to have 12 different hotbars plastered all over their UI just to hold everything. Sometimes less is more.

  10. #44650
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Well, that was a short MSQ continuation. Nothing unexpected happened either.
    Hmm.

  11. #44651
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    [SNIP]

    The class would be much less interesting without it, the Combo Point and Energy mechanics alone don't make for a compelling experience.

    FF14 gets this wrong on multiple levels. First of all their buffs aren't hugely impactful the way Slice and Dice is. Slice and Dice makes you go fast. Heavy Thrust just gives you a flat damage modifer that you won't notice unless you're looking out for it. Having them separate from the combo system means you simply press them after X number of combos have been completed. That makes it feel like maintainance rather than an informed player decision.

    Not having any strong Job mechanics also presents a huge hurdle too. It means the choice to keep your buff up is purely decorative - There's almost never a situation where refreshing is the wrong call. The opportunity cost is just one GCD, so it's almost never a waste the way it would be if you burned 5 Combo Points on a Slice and Dice and the boss died 5 seconds later. Not having an actual resource cost or requiring job mechanics prevents it from ever being a meaningful choice.

    At this point however the problems have been baked in as part of the jobs themselves. To fix it and allow self buffs/debuffs to be engaging would require a complete overhaul almost from the ground up for most Jobs. As much as I would like to see it happen, I can see Squenix brushing it under the rug as being too much hard work, and the longer they leave it the harder it will get.


    I get the impression that a lot of jobs have pointless buttons just so they've got the same number of skills as everyone else. They should probably cull almost all of a Jobs skillset and scale things back to just the essentials like they do in PvP.

    Imagine if BotD was, effectively, a button that turned you Super Saiyan for 20 seconds. You can repeatedly jump, move at 4 times your normal run speed, your GCD is much faster and all your attacks are gaurenteed crits for the duration. Maybe put Wings and a Tail on the player too, make it feel awesome. It's the only cooldown you'd ever need on a single button. Then you could remove Life Surge, Blood for Blood and Battle Littany, you've essentialy combined them all into a super cooldown.

    The same is true with Jump. I would much rather have the coolest, most awesome version of Jump than multiple weaker Jumps and Dives. Just because you're playing an MMO doesn't mean it should be okay to ask players to have 12 different hotbars plastered all over their UI just to hold everything. Sometimes less is more.
    A friend of mine just started playing a couple days ago, and in walking him through some of the basics he sent me a picture of his UI and I sent him a picture of mine so he could get an idea of what you could do with it and I could help him update his.

    Before we even got to working on the UI, he commented on just how many abilities I have on my hotbars...of which I have 3 JUST for abilities used for the class I'm playing. I was on my Dragoon, which is only 63, so not even max level and I only have 4 open slots on my set of 36. And I use 26 of them consistently, with the rest being one-off uses, like the limit break button, goad, and the other cross-role actions.

    I have an MMO mouse and a gaming keypad, so the number of keybinds isn't a problem for me, I can use up to 48 without much of an issue. My friend on the other hand has a regular mouse and is playing on a laptop, so I'm not sure how exactly he'll be able to comfortably play ANY of the classes in this game. I remember before getting my mouse and keypad, in WoW, I had issues using more than ~15 because of how I prefer my movement keys to be bound and how I needed to contort my hand to reach some of the keys. I ended up getting ergonomic injuries from it which is why I have the MMO mouse and keypad now.

    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Well, that was a short MSQ continuation. Nothing unexpected happened either.
    Hmm.
    Yeah the MSQ in this patch was disappointingly short and not very informative, at least for those who paid attention to Tokyo Fan Fest. All of the content added in this patch can be cleared in a couple hours.

  12. #44652
    MSQ was very underwhelming.

    Not bad but just underwhelming. Just didn't set up Shadowbringers that much.

  13. #44653
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Some classes are simply built around these kinds of things though. If it's not simply a buff/debuff it's a DoT that you have to maintain. I agree that it shouldn't just be a button to press to maintain it, so I agree on that point, but I don't take issue with maintaining a buff/debuff as a concept.

    As you said, I think the biggest issue is how the encounters are designed. If core job mechanics can't be effectively utilized, or (like in my case) people stop using their favorite class because of how that class mechanic just doesn't really mesh well with how encounters are designed, that's a bad thing.
    But even looking at a simple DoT. It's still just maintenance/binary if the DoT doesn't do anything and IMO bad design. Look at BLM Thunder for comparison. That ticking gives procs which allows you to do something you couldn't before. That is good design (in theory, application does matter though). I believe Warlocks/SPriests in WoW have similar mechanics with DoTs.

    If job design dictated:

    DoT costs 40% resource, but lasts 30s, dealing average potency over time, but while active any damage dealt to the Dotted target reduces cooldowns of all abilities currently on CD, that is a noticeable effect, drives decision trees and has an opportunity cost if there's something else that costs 40% resource but offers a competing, but different effect. I.e. if I haven't burned any CDs, the CDR isn't as valuable as burst damage, or what if mechanics actually forced me to make decisions.

    That to me is good design, especially when compared against a binary maintenance DoT (a la old fracture/Phlebotomize)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    The thing is, Slice and Dice itself is not interesting part of it, managing multiple resources is. I'd be fine with something like this if there were at least several buffs you had to choose from (like warlock curses or shaman totems, but better balanced between each other).
    Agreed, and although my knowledge of Rogue is low, my understanding is that it's a binary decision (with minor nuance as Zebra mentioned). It's like Ret's TV or DS. It's not a choice, it's binary. If 2+ use DS, otherwise TV. That's it. If SND is less than x seconds, you refresh it, if not, you Evis. That's binary (again, I don't know how Rogue plays atm, but this is my limited understanding).

    While I'm ok with the concept especially since it does add speed to gameplay which is a valid feedback mechanism, I don't consider it good design.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I get the impression that a lot of jobs have pointless buttons just so they've got the same number of skills as everyone else. They should probably cull almost all of a Jobs skillset and scale things back to just the essentials like they do in PvP.

    Imagine if BotD was, effectively, a button that turned you Super Saiyan for 20 seconds. You can repeatedly jump, move at 4 times your normal run speed, your GCD is much faster and all your attacks are gaurenteed crits for the duration. Maybe put Wings and a Tail on the player too, make it feel awesome. It's the only cooldown you'd ever need on a single button. Then you could remove Life Surge, Blood for Blood and Battle Littany, you've essentialy combined them all into a super cooldown.

    The same is true with Jump. I would much rather have the coolest, most awesome version of Jump than multiple weaker Jumps and Dives. Just because you're playing an MMO doesn't mean it should be okay to ask players to have 12 different hotbars plastered all over their UI just to hold everything. Sometimes less is more.
    I'm inclined to agree. I think Life Surge, BL, and B4B are all stupid ass boring CDs. I don't need 3 CDs that offer absolutely 0 gameplay impact. I'd much rather have one that impact gameplay feel/feedback like your example (tuning notwithstanding).

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game.
    Based on anecdotes they simply play suboptimally and are ok with it. I mean for example, I click Tempered Will because I'm out of keybinds I want to use for it. It's largely irrelevant except for like 2 encounters, and you use it like 1-2x so clicking isn't hard.

    But that's not justifying it, that's me working around bad design. Speaking personally, they should just bake the effect into Sheltron as a passive. I think it's ok if PLD is the immovable object, you can have DRK/WAR and GUN leaping around like madmen after knockbacks just fine.

    That's an easy one button fix and adds resource management depth simultaneously.

  14. #44654
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    But even looking at a simple DoT. It's still just maintenance/binary if the DoT doesn't do anything and IMO bad design. [SNIP]

    If job design dictated:

    DoT costs 40% resource, but lasts 30s, dealing average potency over time, but while active any damage dealt to the Dotted target reduces cooldowns of all abilities currently on CD, that is a noticeable effect, drives decision trees and has an opportunity cost if there's something else that costs 40% resource but offers a competing, but different effect. I.e. if I haven't burned any CDs, the CDR isn't as valuable as burst damage, or what if mechanics actually forced me to make decisions.

    That to me is good design, especially when compared against a binary maintenance DoT (a la old fracture/Phlebotomize)
    Fair point, though simple DoT maintenance with no other interactions is a staple of DoT based classes like Warlock and Summoner, as DoT's in these cases are just how they deal the majority of their damage. In the case of SMN though, having the DoT's up increases the damage of one of their direct damage spells so there is SOME interaction, but overall, it's still just optimal to have them all rolling as much as possible, that interaction doesn't really change how you play the class. For other classes not based around DoTs, I 100% agree that having other interactions aside from a simple maintenance DoT is much better design. BRD and BLM work this way. The rest (IIRC) don't really have any interaction outside of simple maintenance.

    Agreed, and although my knowledge of Rogue is low, my understanding is that it's a binary decision (with minor nuance as Zebra mentioned). It's like Ret's TV or DS. It's not a choice, it's binary. If 2+ use DS, otherwise TV. That's it. If SND is less than x seconds, you refresh it, if not, you Evis. That's binary (again, I don't know how Rogue plays atm, but this is my limited understanding).

    While I'm ok with the concept especially since it does add speed to gameplay which is a valid feedback mechanism, I don't consider it good design.
    I think having nuanced decision making, even on a somewhat binary decision like in the case of Rogue and Paladin, is fine when the alternative as we've seen is no nuance whatsoever. The main difference with Rogue and Paladin, is that it takes resources to activate those abilities, resources you had to spend time building and could spend on other abilities. That is more opportunity cost and a weightier decision that what most classes in FFXIV have, where these kinds of abilities are a single button press that don't cost anything but TP (which is a pointless resource).

    Based on anecdotes they simply play suboptimally and are ok with it. I mean for example, I click Tempered Will because I'm out of keybinds I want to use for it. It's largely irrelevant except for like 2 encounters, and you use it like 1-2x so clicking isn't hard.
    And that, to me, is just stupid. I can't say unacceptable because we've been dealing with this for years and apparently done fine (or maybe not....maybe most of those failed dungeon/trial/raid runs with people unable to make the DPS check, or do the encounter mechanics are struggling and/or failing because of just how difficult it is for them to manage the controls and encounter mechanics while performing their job role).

    They really need to reduce the number of buttons, combine buttons for combos, reduce or combine the cooldowns (really, we need 4+ cooldowns for every class?) and get rid of the role actions that serve no purpose and make the relevant ones baseline for the class toolkit.

    But that's not justifying it, that's me working around bad design. Speaking personally, they should just bake the effect into Sheltron as a passive. I think it's ok if PLD is the immovable object, you can have DRK/WAR and GUN leaping around like madmen after knockbacks just fine.

    That's an easy one button fix and adds resource management depth simultaneously.
    And that is the core of the issue I think, we've been working around bad design for years. Not everyone has the skills or ability to work around fewer keybinds and still perform optimally. But that shouldn't be a fall back option, performing sub optimally because people simply can't feasibly access the class abilities is unacceptable.

    They need to take a hard look at their class designs and make some pretty significant changes, because their current design is simply not sustainable, we're already starved for hotbar space, how are they going to cope with adding new abilities or job mechanics if there's nowhere to put the abilities, or if some people are simply unable to use them because of whatever limitations they have?

  15. #44655
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Just didn't set up Shadowbringers that much.
    Fine with me, I hate cliffhangers anyway.

  16. #44656
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Fine with me, I hate cliffhangers anyway.
    Technically it could be a cliffhanger that was just set up so long ago people forgot if Nero's "oh my" moment he never explained when scanning something in a certain raid is being called back to.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  17. #44657
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    A friend of mine just started playing a couple days ago, and in walking him through some of the basics he sent me a picture of his UI and I sent him a picture of mine so he could get an idea of what you could do with it and I could help him update his.

    Before we even got to working on the UI, he commented on just how many abilities I have on my hotbars...of which I have 3 JUST for abilities used for the class I'm playing. I was on my Dragoon, which is only 63, so not even max level and I only have 4 open slots on my set of 36. And I use 26 of them consistently, with the rest being one-off uses, like the limit break button, goad, and the other cross-role actions.

    I have an MMO mouse and a gaming keypad, so the number of keybinds isn't a problem for me, I can use up to 48 without much of an issue. My friend on the other hand has a regular mouse and is playing on a laptop, so I'm not sure how exactly he'll be able to comfortably play ANY of the classes in this game. I remember before getting my mouse and keypad, in WoW, I had issues using more than ~15 because of how I prefer my movement keys to be bound and how I needed to contort my hand to reach some of the keys. I ended up getting ergonomic injuries from it which is why I have the MMO mouse and keypad now.

    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game.



    Yeah the MSQ in this patch was disappointingly short and not very informative, at least for those who paid attention to Tokyo Fan Fest. All of the content added in this patch can be cleared in a couple hours.
    Comtrollers are actually easy as all hell

    I set it up so i only swap between bars 1 and 2 with a click. That is apready 48 skills

    I then go w or another trick where you can have a bar setup to appear when you hold l2 and r2 or vice versa..i tie my upper bars to my third bar(pet for smn) and bam all skills(ok pre role skill rework) ready to go with spare spaces(another 24) soo yeah not bad at all since i just double tap for the w bar stuff.

    It may be even better the mouse and keyboard actually

  18. #44658
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Comtrollers are actually easy as all hell

    I set it up so i only swap between bars 1 and 2 with a click. That is apready 48 skills

    I then go w or another trick where you can have a bar setup to appear when you hold l2 and r2 or vice versa..i tie my upper bars to my third bar(pet for smn) and bam all skills(ok pre role skill rework) ready to go with spare spaces(another 24) soo yeah not bad at all since i just double tap for the w bar stuff.

    It may be even better the mouse and keyboard actually
    On a PS4 that sounds great. On a PC that does sounds pretty amazing too, but still requires the purchase of a controller, and I wouldn't recommend getting a cheap one if you're going to be playing for long periods of time (I have a cheap controller, they suck). Was kind of alluding to the idea that for people to play FFXIV optimally, it's practically impossible to do it natively on a PC (just regular mouse and keyboard) without buying some kind of peripheral.

    That said, my friend owns a PS4 and therefore has a PS4 controller he could use on PC. I'll recommend that to him and see what he thinks.

  19. #44659
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    On a PS4 that sounds great. On a PC that does sounds pretty amazing too, but still requires the purchase of a controller, and I wouldn't recommend getting a cheap one if you're going to be playing for long periods of time (I have a cheap controller, they suck). Was kind of alluding to the idea that for people to play FFXIV optimally, it's practically impossible to do it natively on a PC (just regular mouse and keyboard) without buying some kind of peripheral.

    That said, my friend owns a PS4 and therefore has a PS4 controller he could use on PC. I'll recommend that to him and see what he thinks.
    Ahhh i gotcha. Yeeah i am a big console gamer and prefer controllers sooo i had them already and yeah i know how much the cheap ones suck.

    Though this brings up an interesting question..could it be if done RIGHT mmos with a crazy large number of skills are better on a controller then mouse and keyboard despite the often believed idea of needing to simplify?

    I mean i can easily get 3+ action bars setup for easy use with 2 visible at all times(btw on non smn i use my upper bar to keep track of buffs/timed skills so that i can always see them)

  20. #44660
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Ahhh i gotcha. Yeeah i am a big console gamer and prefer controllers sooo i had them already and yeah i know how much the cheap ones suck.

    Though this brings up an interesting question..could it be if done RIGHT mmos with a crazy large number of skills are better on a controller then mouse and keyboard despite the often believed idea of needing to simplify?

    I mean i can easily get 3+ action bars setup for easy use with 2 visible at all times(btw on non smn i use my upper bar to keep track of buffs/timed skills so that i can always see them)
    I mean... I use a keyboard and a regular, non-gaming mouse without buttons and I have 25 binds with 1 or more role action bound across all jobs, and I do just fine. I click the odd things that aren't important/reaction, like BRD MP/TP regen. It's all about how you craft your UI, how you keybind it and use the same keybinds for memory, and how you make the things you have to see easily seen, while hiding the clutter. The idea that it's "practically impossible" to play without a controller or a gaming mouse is just ridiculous. For reference, my BRD has 20 active and my DRG has 23, role actions taking up a few unused. I remember all of the binds to the many jobs I play and I play them in savage.

    That's not to say I don't think the game has or doesn't have too many abilities for some classes, or some could be baked into other abilities, but I have also played WoW, which means I understand the importance of having too few abilities, too. Maybe it can easily be overwhelming for newer players, but you slowly learn as you level your abilities to comfortably learn your rotations and binds. So..why is that a bad thing? It gives you reason to improve, to do better, or you just..don't.
    Last edited by La; 2019-03-31 at 04:51 AM.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

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