1. #44661
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Hmm I generally use 1-5, Q, E, R and my 7 mouse buttons. If that isn't enough I get annoyed.
    As I said: CDs with > 60s are simply clicked on.

  2. #44662
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm sure people can play the jobs effectively enough to get by (not trying to imply you're just getting by). I just have a hard time believing that someone with a regular mouse and keyboard is able to play a class that has ~25+ abilities that are used regularly OPTIMALLY from both a gameplay perspective, but also ergonomic perspective.
    Like I said and posted in a previous post, I have 25+ abilities Keybound with a normal KB and M. Even if I didn't have MB 4/5 I'd still be able to Keybind I'd just need to use some extra Keyboard keys instead.

    Keybinding isn't really hard even without an MMO mouse. I own a g600 and choose not to use it because it feels worse than my current setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    One of the other major things I dislike are abilities that you cast on a friendly target if you're not a healer. Ones like Goad, Palisade and such. Having to manually click on your target, press the button, then click back on your DPS target is a huge usability hurdle.

    I don't think those are bad abilities per se, but they're hamstrung by the UI. Not being able to use an addon, or even functional mouseover macros, makes it a tough one to solve. Having an ability that's just too clunky to use is far more irritating than having filler skills in my opinion - You can ignore a bad skill, but a good skill that's awkward to use is much harder to just overlook. Needing workarounds for core Job skills is a design failure in my book.
    This I agree on 100%. Even basic Macros would make this game 10x better from a raiding PoV. I mostly forego Goad, etc unless really required.

  3. #44663
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I used to play MMOs with no peripherals, because I didn't feel like spending the money. Then, after a heavy raiding season in WoW I ended up going to the doctor because my wrist, pinky and thumb on my left hand had repetitive stress injuries from all the gymnastics they had to do to hit the keys, hold down modifiers, and turn to allow fingers access to the right key.

    I 100% advocate that heavy MMO gamers should invest in these kinds of peripherals because of what happened to me. Two ~$80 peripherals are more than worth it if it means I don't have to deal with pain in my hand, pay for doctors visits, pain meds or a brace AND get increased performance in games. But most MMOs that I've played don't require you to have the peripherals to play optimally, it's just a bonus, and prevents injury. In FFXIV, there's just no way I could play it without the peripherals I have, at least not at a level that I am comfortable with.
    I can't say I've ever run into uncomfortable, hand twisting situations like you seem to have. I would assume that it was a problem for a long while before it developed into full blown RSI?

    If I need to press something that requires me to take my fingers off the movement keys I'll either stand still or else use the mouse to move while I press it. Otherwise I'll adjust my hand on the keyboard for a couple of seconds so it's not uncomfortable. I find that adjusting my hand position comes quite naturally - Quite possiably from a combination of years both playing the guitar and doing Ju Jitsu. Moving my arm in/outwards at the elbow and shoulder or moving my entire hand down a row of keys is a fast, automatic response for me at this point.

    My hands are large enough that I can hit Shift and Ctrl with my Ring finger, the hotkey with my Index and usually the movement key with my middle finger without stretching nor putting pressure on my wrist. Alt I usually do with my thumb and the hotkey with either my Ring or Index. I move my hand mostly with my arm movement rather than the wrist. I never have to turn or twist my wrist to reach the keybinds, nor do I need to twist my entire arm into uncomfortable positions.

    I've been quite lucky in that I know how my body moves and how to work with it so I don't injure myself. The most discomfort I've ever had while gaming has been sweaty controllers. Thankfully that one requires a cloth and perhaps a break, not advice from a trained proffesional.

    That being said, like you, I would encourage anyone who does have discomfort or pain while gaming to invest in some new peripherals too. I've got 3 gaming controllers on my desk in front of me right now - And a steering wheel one boxed up behind me. Well made peripherals tend to really last too, so while the initial investment can look expensive, remember that you're going to get a lot of practical use out of it and be preventing yourself from getting an injury.

    Even minor discomfort should be a warning sign, no matter how small. An aching finger isn't going to get better if you keep doing the same thing over and over with it. If it keeps happening then you need to make changes before you start injuring yourself for real.

  4. #44664
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    This I agree on 100%. Even basic Macros would make this game 10x better from a raiding PoV. I mostly forego Goad, etc unless really required.
    Umm you do have macros, you can very easily create a targeting macro (typically it's always the same person that needs stuff like goad anyway). My raiding buddies do it all the time.

    Personally, I think one does not have to be THAT obsessed with DPS uptime in order not to use a ability. I mean, come on, the GCD is friggin 2.5 seconds, how long do you need to target/cast/retarget?!

    As a healer, I do it all the time, if I would need more than a GCD for that I would be a pretty crappy healer

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I can't say I've ever run into uncomfortable, hand twisting situations like you seem to have. I would assume that it was a problem for a long while before it developed into full blown RSI?
    Same. 9 yrs of raiding and I never needed, nor felt the need to use specialized peripherials. But then again I always only bind core abilities and click the ones that are more rarely used, so no finger gymnastics necessary.

    If you think computer keyboards are bad... don't try the piano or a guitar.

  5. #44665
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Umm you do have macros, you can very easily create a targeting macro (typically it's always the same person that needs stuff like goad anyway). My raiding buddies do it all the time.

    Personally, I think one does not have to be THAT obsessed with DPS uptime in order not to use a ability. I mean, come on, the GCD is friggin 2.5 seconds, how long do you need to target/cast/retarget?!

    As a healer, I do it all the time, if I would need more than a GCD for that I would be a pretty crappy healer
    As a Healer or Tank I am fine to do it. As a DPS being in the middle of a Boss fight my spatial awareness tends to drop more than the other 2 roles.

    Also, holy crap I forgot Macros existed in this game. It seems the last time I made one was back at the start of 2.0 when i first tried the game. I think I just assumed they were in the same category as Addons in this game.

  6. #44666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm sure people can play the jobs effectively enough to get by (not trying to imply you're just getting by). I just have a hard time believing that someone with a regular mouse and keyboard is able to play a class that has ~25+ abilities that are used regularly OPTIMALLY from both a gameplay perspective, but also ergonomic perspective.

    I don't doubt that people will "get by" well enough to enjoy the game with just a regular M+KB, but I also don't doubt that some of those people are the ones having difficulty doing relatively simple mechanics in mechanic heavy fights because it's practically impossible to turn the camera while moving, move to a specific spot to avoid a mechanic, pay attention to other player position, use abilities AND attack the right target if you're having to manually click abilities.

    And this is just in normal mode. Forget doing it in the higher end difficulties.
    *Raises hand* Using 1-5, Q, E, R, F, MB3, MB4, MB5. Plus Shift, Ctrl and Alt as modifiers. So that makes 48 possible keybinds with normal keyboard and a mouse with 2 sidebuttons and the scrollwheel. No real finger gymnastics either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    As a Healer or Tank I am fine to do it. As a DPS being in the middle of a Boss fight my spatial awareness tends to drop more than the other 2 roles.

    Also, holy crap I forgot Macros existed in this game. It seems the last time I made one was back at the start of 2.0 when i first tried the game. I think I just assumed they were in the same category as Addons in this game.
    I'd be careful about using macros for standard rotations, since the spells and abilities won't queue if used in a macro. And most of the time macros are a bit wonky.

    So use at your own risk!
    Thread: Ranged vs Melee which is easier in PvE?
    'Originally Posted by Thelxi'
    Dragon farts stink so ranged

  7. #44667
    Quote Originally Posted by Manthis View Post
    I'd be careful about using macros for standard rotations, since the spells and abilities won't queue if used in a macro. And most of the time macros are a bit wonky.

    So use at your own risk!
    Most I'd use would be things like >target Party member >cast dragon sight >target last enemy. kind of things.

  8. #44668
    Different strokes for different folks I guess. Glad people don't seem to have the same problem I did, it sucked. I honestly didn't think it had anything to do with my gaming because I also did martial arts (mix of Karate, Judo and Jiu-Jitsu) and my fingers tended to get pulled, smashed, strained, etc... then I realized after being sick for like 3 weeks that the injuries were getting worse, not better, when I didn't go to the dojo but played WoW.

    I will say though, adjusting to the new peripherals took a few days each, the learning curve on some of them is pretty terrible but worth it in the end IMO.

  9. #44669
    Servers down till tomorrow very sadnesses what am I supposed to do now

  10. #44670
    https://twinfinite.net/2019/04/final...guchi-yoshida/

    Well this is interesting. The main focus of the article is the FF7 remake being recruited for by SE as well as a new 'co-director/producer' which further suggests thats nomuras personal trashfire in progress to replace XV. More interesting though is Yoshi P's team being rebranded to "Development Team 3" with a "large scale rpg going into production".

    So after the hot mess of XV are they just giving him XVI to pull another ARR style hit?
    Last edited by dope_danny; 2019-04-01 at 12:20 PM.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  11. #44671
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Also, holy crap I forgot Macros existed in this game. It seems the last time I made one was back at the start of 2.0 when i first tried the game. I think I just assumed they were in the same category as Addons in this game.
    Actually, macros are far more useful in FF compared to WoW, esp in crafting. You can craft entire items via macro.
    I wouldn't recommend chaining combat abilities, since there is a delay but sth like target <player> -> /ac goad -> /target <boss> should be possible.

    I have a macro that chains the instant cast ability with the resurrection. So much more comfortable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Different strokes for different folks I guess. Glad people don't seem to have the same problem I did, it sucked. I honestly didn't think it had anything to do with my gaming because I also did martial arts (mix of Karate, Judo and Jiu-Jitsu) and my fingers tended to get pulled, smashed, strained, etc... then I realized after being sick for like 3 weeks that the injuries were getting worse, not better, when I didn't go to the dojo but played WoW.
    Yeah these things can be subtle. When I play the piano and flute I have to be extremely careful in regards to posture and I have to limit practice time to half an hour per day or I will get pains immediately. Sucks but I guess my body is just feeble that way.

    When playing PC games I always paid attention that my arm/wrist/hand were straight and relaxed at all times. I need to put a little cushion below my wrist when operating the keyboard, w/o it -> ouch in a matter of hours.

  12. #44672
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post


    This is my Hotbar, the only 2 buttons on it that I press Manually are Limit Break and Sprint. Both so I don't fat finger them mid combat.
    Your setup confirms my point earlier made. If you're pressing some of those buttons there's absolutely 0 chance you're doing it with your non mouse hand, which is suboptimal. That's the entire argument. No one is saying it can't be done, we're saying it's suboptimal and doesn't need to be an issue if the game was more intelligently designed. I also don't see any keybinds on your entire second row? I assume it's just a shift modifier, but curious why it doesn't show. I haven't logged on in a while to see if my shift keybinds look the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Different strokes for different folks I guess. Glad people don't seem to have the same problem I did, it sucked. I honestly didn't think it had anything to do with my gaming because I also did martial arts (mix of Karate, Judo and Jiu-Jitsu) and my fingers tended to get pulled, smashed, strained, etc... then I realized after being sick for like 3 weeks that the injuries were getting worse, not better, when I didn't go to the dojo but played WoW.

    I will say though, adjusting to the new peripherals took a few days each, the learning curve on some of them is pretty terrible but worth it in the end IMO.
    You're not alone. Back in 2010, even when I was a youngin, I was getting RSI's from WoW. It wasn't necessarily from any gymnastics (as I'm pretty flexible in the hands/wrist from tennis), but my fingers were constantly in agonizing pain from mashing. I created an AHK macro that simply repeats any press while held down. Not only did this abate all my RSI pain, it also led to a consistently reproducible DPS increase, especially as the session dragged on and I got slower and slower.

    I've since adopted it for FF14 back in ARR to identical results. No RSI and a consistent DPS gain.

    I also got RSI's from BNS. I ended up having to macro my ani-cancel via my mouse to simply play the game. I always felt pretty awful about it, but it was a fair price to play what I considered one of the most engaging combat systems ever developed, but it definitely didn't care about your health LOL.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2019-04-01 at 01:23 PM.

  13. #44673
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    If you think computer keyboards are bad... don't try the piano or a guitar.
    I've played the guitar since I was 12, when I stumbled upon this very small, little band that no one else has probably ever heard of called the Foo Fighters and decided that I wanted to be a rockstar too. After I got over the initial hump where I was stretching out my fingers and growing calluses it wasn't too bad. It's probably why I don't find MMO's to be too taxing on my hands, I'm very well used to moving my fingers into unnatural positions.

    Also the whole Rockstar thing never panned out. Like every guitar playing teenager I was in a band that was destined to make it big. Sadly, our music was ahead of our time. And also behind our time. In fact, I don't think there was a time where we would have really fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Most I'd use would be things like >target Party member >cast dragon sight >target last enemy. kind of things.
    The only issue I've had with ones like that is I tend to have to pug most of the time, so I've got to edit in the names before we start. It's not a huge problem, but it's still an annoyance. Given the chance, I would vastly prefer to have functional Mouseover macros though. They take out a lot of mouse clicking and make casting something like Esuna so much easier. I reailse they're not for everyone, but I find them much easier to work with than the default method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira View Post
    Servers down till tomorrow very sadnesses what am I supposed to do now ������
    If you're looking for something to fill in the time, I'd recommend CrossCode. It's a fun Zelda-esque ARPG wrapped up in an MMO game-within-a-game setting.

    Though it's not a short game by any stretch of the imagination, despite being an indie.

  14. #44674
    Well I'm pretty bummed atm. I'm a WoW refugee that took the Twitch Prime route for a free base copy of the game and I liked it enough that when I got to 50 I got the Shadowbringers bundle that in addition to preordering the new expansion, also includes the two previous ones. But apparently I misread the fine print because it says the other two expansions while included in the purchase won't technically be given to me until the new one is out in July. I'm left unable to progress on my character for three months. It never occured to me that Square wouldn't let you have the two current expansions included in the bundle now so that you can play through them while waiting for Shadowbringers.

  15. #44675
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You're not alone. Back in 2010, even when I was a youngin, I was getting RSI's from WoW. It wasn't necessarily from any gymnastics (as I'm pretty flexible in the hands/wrist from tennis), but my fingers were constantly in agonizing pain from mashing. I created an AHK macro that simply repeats any press while held down. Not only did this abate all my RSI pain, it also led to a consistently reproducible DPS increase, especially as the session dragged on and I got slower and slower.

    I've since adopted it for FF14 back in ARR to identical results. No RSI and a consistent DPS gain.

    I also got RSI's from BNS. I ended up having to macro my ani-cancel via my mouse to simply play the game. I always felt pretty awful about it, but it was a fair price to play what I considered one of the most engaging combat systems ever developed, but it definitely didn't care about your health LOL.
    Yeah, this is why I normally advocate for getting the peripherals because it not only addresses the RSI's, but provides a measurable benefit to playing almost every MMO, or other type of game that may have multiple buttons to press. It's a universal fix that can be applied to every game, without the need to figure out a way to engineer/ create a custom way in every game. Depends on whether you want to spend the money though. I just try to talk about how I feel the money is worth it, especially if you get a good quality one. I've had my Razer Naga mouse for ~6 years now with no problems and my Razer Tartarus gaming keypad for ~4 years, no problems there either. I'm pretty religious about keeping my desk and stuff clean so I have no problems with food or anything gunking them up.

    As I said though, you have to be dedicated to learning how to use them effectively. The learning curve is real. It took me 3-4 hours a day for ~3 days for each one to get comfortable enough using them in a more high octane environment. The main advantage was that I could move laterally, while moving the camera angle any way I needed to, while holding a modifier key and still activate abilities AND have spatial awareness because I didn't have to move my arms/ wrist at all (aside from mouse movement) or put my fingers in weird straining situations. With the keypad, my thumb can easily and ergonomically activate all my modifiers.

    I know it sounds really small and simple, but being able to focus entirely on the game play and what's happening on the screen without worrying about or even thinking about finger placement or movement or anything like that made my enjoyment go up a lot. This obviously impacted my performance, which is obviously enjoyable and satisfying.

    All that said, play how you want and are comfortable with, I'm just saying what works for me. But I still am a little skeptical when people say that they can play with the same level of comfort, ability and performance as someone with these peripherals...I just don't see how it's possible, especially since those advantages are specifically WHY these peripherals are created. You might get similar performance, but I doubt you're as comfortable. As long as you're happy though, I'm not trying to talk down to your play style. I'm just skeptical, from a logical perspective, how someone would get equal performance AND comfort with default options to someone who has peripherals specifically designed to provide an advantage in those areas.

  16. #44676
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    https://twinfinite.net/2019/04/final...guchi-yoshida/

    Well this is interesting. The main focus of the article is the FF7 remake being recruited for by SE as well as a new 'co-director/producer' which further suggests thats nomuras personal trashfire in progress to replace XV. More interesting though is Yoshi P's team being rebranded to "Development Team 3" with a "large scale rpg going into production".

    So after the hot mess of XV are they just giving him XVI to pull another ARR style hit?
    Please YoshiP, give us a high fantasy Final Fantasy.

  17. #44677
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    So after the hot mess of XV are they just giving him XVI to pull another ARR style hit?
    I hope not, if constant fanservice and uninspired gameplay are Yoshi-P's main design ideas. DQ11 team would be better at the job with good scriptwriter.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  18. #44678
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I've played the guitar since I was 12...
    *chuckles* Nice story.
    Do you still play? Bet you're pretty good at it by now.

  19. #44679
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I've played the guitar since I was 12
    I skimmed the post originaly and missed this part.

    I have too, the ways I move my fingers for guitar though are vastly different to the strains and articulations I had to use for gaming. My guitar playing was largely unaffected by my RSIs as well.

  20. #44680
    Quote Originally Posted by Merie View Post
    I'm left unable to progress on my character for three months.
    Keep leveling other jobs or work away at the 100 quests you need to start heavensward if you haven't already.

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