1. #44801
    Epic! bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    That's an issue with the "road to 60" buff, usually around 30-40 and then mid 40s you're starved for quests.
    That could of been it. I was constantly 2 levels above the MSQ quests, but after i read about the POST ARR MSQ stuff before Heavensward, i said fuck it, boost to Heavensward and boosted a job, and i am loving the game now, and feel like i understand the relatively simple class i chose (Bard) so i do not feel like a detriment to group i participate in, actually the opposite if my recent commendations are anything.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  2. #44802
    Bloodsail Admiral Dugna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwulf View Post
    I think you are over stating a lot. For one, the only thing needing to be skipped is ARR MSQ. That would not skip your class quests as the ARR skip is separate of a job boost. ARR MSQ is dull, runs on really dated quest mechanics (compared to SB and HS) and lacks almost all character abilities due to them coming into play post 50. People would still be required to level 1-50, but would have the option of doing it in other ways, and at their speed. They will still be required to complete class quests. They would even be able to group with friends who want to do POTD with them to level. There are a lot of benefits to giving option ARR skips to new players. A player is not going to be lost in the game if they just skipped ARR.
    so then lvling then just becomes potd and class quests? thats the problem I was talking about, thats fine for alt jobs but for your main you would just be playing nonengaing both gameplaywise and narratively for many lvls just because some quests require you to read. Also that 30-40 chunk aka the Titan questline is mostly kill 10/10 of something and less talking to people its what made it tedious in anyway. ARR to HW post story content is what made HW even high accalimed in the first place, that buildup leading to HW only for basically all of It to payoff heavily in HW itself is great. If you go from You're the WoL dealing with gareleans to suddenly fighting a dragonwar you have no investment in, it creates the same problem wow has where you go from killing boars for 15 lvls in durotar to fighting Deadmines npcs across the world with no context at all cept that they are a Red UI frame and you must kill Red.

    I can't give a single shit about BFA lore for example, because of those reasons.

  3. #44803
    Epic! bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    so then lvling then just becomes potd and class quests? thats the problem I was talking about, thats fine for alt jobs but for your main you would just be playing nonengaing both gameplaywise and narratively for many lvls just because some quests require you to read. Also that 30-40 chunk aka the Titan questline is mostly kill 10/10 of something and less talking to people its what made it tedious in anyway. ARR to HW post story content is what made HW even high accalimed in the first place, that buildup leading to HW only for basically all of It to payoff heavily in HW itself is great. If you go from You're the WoL dealing with gareleans to suddenly fighting a dragonwar you have no investment in, it creates the same problem wow has where you go from killing boars for 15 lvls in durotar to fighting Deadmines npcs across the world with no context at all cept that they are a Red UI frame and you must kill Red.

    I can't give a single shit about BFA lore for example, because of those reasons.
    I feel like you are the only person on these forums, or anywhere else that feels the 2.00.-2.xx patches are high points. Everywhere i read said that 100+ quests between 2.0 to 3.0 is the longest slog in the game. I feel no disconnect with my character after skipping to Heavensward when i was previously at the point of getting Cid's memories. Honestly i like my character in this game as much as some of my 10+ year WoW characters. The story in ARR just isn't that good compared to later storytelling. I loved the dragon war in Heavensward and did not feel confused or diminished at all considering i skipped from 35 to Heavensward.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  4. #44804
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    I can't give a single shit about BFA lore for example, because of those reasons.
    I can't give a single shit about BfA lore because it IS literal shit. The only good wow lore is from a long time ago, a lot of it prior to even WoW existing.

  5. #44805
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    I'm all for quests like again kill 10/10 sprites being cut down to like 2/2 or 4/4 something really fast and just adjust the exp but i'm not for it all being skipped on a easy free basis, if you really super wish to skip the story you pay for it which makes the impact lessened massively.

    Lvling alt jobs is already ridiculously easy even without exp boosts and now we have tons.
    Shrinking the combat oriented quests does nothing but exacerbate the problem we're talking about. All it does is push the time spent talking and teleporting into a higher percentage which is the exact opposite of what we actually want.

    What people actually want is streamlining quests that have no real impact on the overall narrative. Implement a way to trim the fat and actually use Linkpearls to allow us to keep questing in a more timely manner without the offensive back and forth for trivial quests. This improves both the feel and pacing thus pushing the whole experience to a more engaging flow and balanced process.

    Regarding alt jobs - sure it's easy, but it's not exactly fun if you care at all about being efficient. There are dozens of solutions available to improve this process flow, but like all changes there are opportunity costs associated. It'd be up to the dev team to determine which make the most sense/least impact, but I have to state that personally I think the existing system is one of the worst feeling. Nothing feels worse than being relegated to the same 1-2 dungeons (that are based on archaic methodologies and systems design and not modernized) in a given level bracket, or dear god PotD...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    k lets say every new person who purchased SHB got a skip to atleast patch 4.0 or heck even patch 4.4, now lets say thats about maybe 200-300k people, thats about 200-300k people who will have no investment no interest in the content because they don't know the story, so when SHB comes out they will skip everything bitch that things take to long and that the MSQ is "tedious" or not know the simple mechs of how quests even work in FF14, even worse they will not know a single thing bout their class/job at all. I remember when blizzard started giving out free boosts with expacs it lead to tons of people feeling entitled to clear everything and do everything with no effort at all. its much better to lets say have 50-100k steady interested users then 500k people who play for one week or 2 and then ditch for months on end not even completing a thing
    You're making a really bad assumption that the story is the only thing that allows someone to be invested in content? That's a bit ridiculous... I didn't care about the reason I was going to fight Garuda, but the presentation and music blew me away and had me hooked on trials (Ifrit was less impactful of the original 3). Many different people enjoy many different things for *surprise* many different reasons. I personally love the story content, but I am not some zealot unable to reason that there is a staggering amount of room for improvement.

    You're being a bit hypocritical citing WoW as some egregious offender here, when FF14 is pretty well known as the MMO that expects you to carry dead weight (aka players expecting to do everything with no effort at all and a generally entitled playerbase) while simultaneously shielding those players from criticism/feedback. This isn't me defending WoW, It has it's own issues for sure, but it's very disingenuous to cite FF14 in a better light here IMO.

    I mean heck:
    • How many 24 mans have I joined where I was top DPS as a tank
    • How about dungeons where I had players doing less DPS than I was doing more than a full expansion ago?
    • How about the tank who did literally nothing but spam shield lob over and over again?
    • Don't even get me started on the communities inability to understand the difference between learning, clear, and farm parties and the toxicity surrounding that mess.
    • How about FFLogs or parsers and the general lack of accountability or responsibility among the community?
    • Healers who are perfectly ok being AFK nearly 80% of a given dungeon run, because they don't DPS?
    • DPS who don't AOE because spamming one button is less fun than doing a ST rotation (despite being significantly less effective)?

    There's a lot of entitlement and dead weight in FF14.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    You're not going to lose your already established player base by giving new players an easy way to skip 2.0. 2.0 is awful, I love XIV, but 2.0 is just bad.

    I had to DRAG my wife through it kicking and screaming, she loves the game now but if I didn't do that she would have never been playing and excited for ShB now.
    I'm doing the same thing with my one friend. I think he'll actually really like a lot of different jobs at max level and the raids/trials, but getting him there has been an enormous headache. I'm literally dragging him kicking and screaming so I empathize.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2019-04-24 at 06:40 PM.

  6. #44806
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I mean heck:
    • How many 24 mans have I joined where I was top DPS as a tank
    • How about dungeons where I had players doing less DPS than I was doing more than a full expansion ago?
    • How about the tank who did literally nothing but spam shield lob over and over again?
    • Don't even get me started on the communities inability to understand the difference between learning, clear, and farm parties and the toxicity surrounding that mess.
    • How about FFLogs or parsers and the general lack of accountability or responsibility among the community?
    • Healers who are perfectly ok being AFK nearly 80% of a given dungeon run, because they don't DPS?
    • DPS who don't AOE because spamming one button is less fun than doing a ST rotation (despite being significantly less effective)?

    There's a lot of entitlement and dead weight in FF14.
    .
    Wow...I have some comments about that. Not all players care about much of the below, it is one of the reasons why WoW is now my secondary MMO. I have been top DPS in mulitple guilds doing advanced content in WoW, and tanked what I didn't dps.

    [*]How many 24 mans have I joined where I was top DPS as a tank So? Did you get the thing done? If it isn't advanced content who cares?

    [*]How about dungeons where I had players doing less DPS than I was doing more than a full expansion ago? Again who cares, makes it feel like you are promoting yourself here. Maybe you are an elite player, by definition that means that others won't be. What is the problem?

    [*]How about the tank who did literally nothing but spam shield lob over and over again? Well that is a problem anything past like level 20; however you never know the person could be disabled or it could be a 6 year old playing (scary as that is). As long as it is content that doesn't matter and you are just getting tomes or whatever then just roll with it. I do roulettes as a tank for no other reason than to play and help others out.

    [*]Don't even get me started on the communities inability to understand the difference between learning, clear, and farm parties and the toxicity surrounding that mess. Agreed toxicity is always bad; and higher levels of respect should be demonstrated.

    [*]How about FFLogs or parsers and the general lack of accountability or responsibility among the community? I play FFXIV to have fun, i did the whole WOWLOGS and DPS Parses thing already, as long as the boss dies and I am not too much of a burden the focus on the fun.

    [*]Healers who are perfectly ok being AFK nearly 80% of a given dungeon run, because they don't DPS? Agreed folks should be present and try.

    [*]DPS who don't AOE because spamming one button is less fun than doing a ST rotation (despite being significantly less effective)? Mostly agree as well, then again maybe they don't know...or they are having fun etc.


    I have been having a lot more fun just having fun; not at the expense of anyone else, but less critical and just relaxing. I am sure many will say "YOU ARE ONE OF THE LAZY BAD PLAYERS"; all I can say is that I am just trying to be average and I practice a bit while reading forums, guides, and videos.

    Outside of the content meant to be cutting edge, that is made for the players who want that challenge; then just relax and play.
    Last edited by kensim; 2019-04-24 at 08:33 PM.

  7. #44807
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Shrinking the combat oriented quests does nothing but exacerbate the problem we're talking about. All it does is push the time spent talking and teleporting into a higher percentage which is the exact opposite of what we actually want.

    What people actually want is streamlining quests that have no real impact on the overall narrative. Implement a way to trim the fat and actually use Linkpearls to allow us to keep questing in a more timely manner without the offensive back and forth for trivial quests. This improves both the feel and pacing thus pushing the whole experience to a more engaging flow and balanced process.

    Regarding alt jobs - sure it's easy, but it's not exactly fun if you care at all about being efficient. There are dozens of solutions available to improve this process flow, but like all changes there are opportunity costs associated. It'd be up to the dev team to determine which make the most sense/least impact, but I have to state that personally I think the existing system is one of the worst feeling. Nothing feels worse than being relegated to the same 1-2 dungeons (that are based on archaic methodologies and systems design and not modernized) in a given level bracket, or dear god PotD...



    You're making a really bad assumption that the story is the only thing that allows someone to be invested in content? That's a bit ridiculous... I didn't care about the reason I was going to fight Garuda, but the presentation and music blew me away and had me hooked on trials (Ifrit was less impactful of the original 3). Many different people enjoy many different things for *surprise* many different reasons. I personally love the story content, but I am not some zealot unable to reason that there is a staggering amount of room for improvement.

    You're being a bit hypocritical citing WoW as some egregious offender here, when FF14 is pretty well known as the MMO that expects you to carry dead weight (aka players expecting to do everything with no effort at all and a generally entitled playerbase) while simultaneously shielding those players from criticism/feedback. This isn't me defending WoW, It has it's own issues for sure, but it's very disingenuous to cite FF14 in a better light here IMO.

    I mean heck:
    • How many 24 mans have I joined where I was top DPS as a tank
    • How about dungeons where I had players doing less DPS than I was doing more than a full expansion ago?
    • How about the tank who did literally nothing but spam shield lob over and over again?
    • Don't even get me started on the communities inability to understand the difference between learning, clear, and farm parties and the toxicity surrounding that mess.
    • How about FFLogs or parsers and the general lack of accountability or responsibility among the community?
    • Healers who are perfectly ok being AFK nearly 80% of a given dungeon run, because they don't DPS?
    • DPS who don't AOE because spamming one button is less fun than doing a ST rotation (despite being significantly less effective)?

    There's a lot of entitlement and dead weight in FF14.



    I'm doing the same thing with my one friend. I think he'll actually really like a lot of different jobs at max level and the raids/trials, but getting him there has been an enormous headache. I'm literally dragging him kicking and screaming so I empathize.
    To be fair, that list could be entirely transplanted to WoW with similar effect. Just replace 24 man with LFR.

    In my experience, both games suffer from the same problems. I think in FFXIV it's just exacerbated because the community and amount of high end content is just so much smaller, high end content is more accessible than it is in WoW so you see all types of players in the Extreme trials and Savage raids, whereas in WoW the higher end Mythic keys and Heroic+ raids are somewhat gated so you find mostly people who want to be there and are accountable and have at least some idea on how to play their class.

    I play both games SUPER casually, and find they both have similar issues when it comes to players like me trying to engage in this content a few weeks after it comes out because it took me that long to get geared appropriately. I'm generally met with a lot of skepticism and downright a-holes sometimes who just won't include me (or can't join a group) because of low/no experience, low gear score, etc... I don't generally start my own group because it doesn't mean THAT much to me, and I am just learning the content as well, so wouldn't be able to give any guidance or help at all. I'm confident in my ability to learn, but I've been around long enough to know some people aren't as good at that and I'm not a fan of "learning" parties simply because without a dedicated group of good players there's not much learning going on except the names of which players suck the most/ are having a bad day because the group can't last long enough in the fight to learn anything.

    My experience with you personally as a player who actively engages in this type of content, really just made it more apparent that there are all types of players at all types of skill levels, but if it's done anything it's really highlighted the fact that people like you (genuinely decent people who are just wanting to play at that level of game play for the fun of it and are willing to help others out) tend to stick together and are therefore pretty rare to find out in the wild , so to speak. Which highlights another thing that's been said a million times in every MMO ever: Finding a good guild/ group of people to play with can make all the difference in the world as to your experience with end game content.

  8. #44808
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    There's a lot of entitlement and dead weight in FF14.
    There's a lot of it in WoW too, the big difference I notice is that WoW allows for you to deal with those players. I can remove someone from my group if they're holding the rest of us back. There are tools like Recount and Warcraft logs that allow me to break down where my group is going wrong and how I should fix it. If that means replacing the guy who dies on all the mechanics, or the guy who's doing less DPS than the Resto Shaman with someone better, Blizzard are okay with me doing that. Other people in the group are usually okay with it too.

    With FF14 people tend to be upset by it. Justifying it with reasoning like "They were doing horrible DPS" doesn't seem to really fly with either the playerbase nor with Squenix. Holding those who are a problem to account is a minefield in FF14.

    I don't consider myself to be an elite player, not by a long shot. There was a time when, perhaps, I might have been when my guild was actively pushing for server firsts during WotLK but those days are long behind me. Now I find myself pugging Battle for Dazar'alor and consider myself lucky to get the Ahead of the Curve achivement.

    What I do have are expectations of other players. I know to some that's a dirty word and they're going to immediately jump to the conclusion that my "expectations" are that everyone around me is armed to the teeth and performing at 110% of their Jobs maximum. That couldn't be further from the truth. In reality, I set my expectations at having a minimum level of respect for the people you're playing with. That you respect their time by not intentionaly wasting it. That you respect what the group is trying to achieve and are willing to work towards that.

    Those were the same expectations I had of people when I was a serious raider in WoW. I never cared much about your gear or achivements, only that you were someone who was willing to put in the effort to beating the content. The same was true when it came to pug raiding too, I was happy to take first timers through ICC provided they were willing to listen and learn. I was more than happy to take PvPers who had the gear for it, and alts and the occasional complete newbie who'd just hit level 80 who asked nicely and promised not to get in the way too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Which highlights another thing that's been said a million times in every MMO ever: Finding a good guild/ group of people to play with can make all the difference in the world as to your experience with end game content.
    As someone who's been both inside and outside of that bubble, I actually prefer life outside of it for the moment. It does mean having to deal with the occasional bad egg, but it works a lot better with my chaotic schedual. Don't get me wrong, if you're wanting to beat the hardest of the hard content then having a guild or similar is absolutely the way to go. But if you're happy with just low stress way to spend a couple of hours it works out just fine.

    Besides, everyone I knew who played WoW has quit and my server is a complete ghost town. I've yet to have any meaningful interaction with other players in FF14 really. I generally keep to myself with what I do for the most part, so I rarely run into other players aside from when it comes to group content which isn't the ideal environment for chit chat. By the time you've said "Hi, I'm Bob and I like trains!", I'm usually half way down the corridor to the first boss.

    I'm a social pariah through circumstance more than anything else. Which I find to be depressing and hillarious in equal measure.

  9. #44809
    I'm of the opinion that the "slog" of ARR quests contributed greatly to making the FFXIV community an enjoyable place. Mostly by filtering out the people who were too impatient to go through the MSQ. In my experience, FFXIV groups have always been more patient and willing to work through wipes than in other MMOs.

    Maybe it's unfair (and detrimental to SE's pocketbook), but when I see the players who are unwilling to do the MSQ, I can't help but think the game is better without them.

  10. #44810
    Epic! bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    I'm of the opinion that the "slog" of ARR quests contributed greatly to making the FFXIV community an enjoyable place. Mostly by filtering out the people who were too impatient to go through the MSQ. In my experience, FFXIV groups have always been more patient and willing to work through wipes than in other MMOs.

    Maybe it's unfair (and detrimental to SE's pocketbook), but when I see the players who are unwilling to do the MSQ, I can't help but think the game is better without them.
    Impatience doesnt always mean they are bad players. Some people work full time and dont want to slog through 3 months just to be able to play with their friends. Instant gratification can lead to entitled players, but fixing 1-50 doesn't have to be only instant gratification.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  11. #44811
    Epic! Fid's Avatar
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    1). I am lv 12 and I want to change class/job. Should I restart with a new toon or can I use the same?
    2). Is there a setting to change how the character is locked in a casting animation and then an awkward/laggy movement happens? It looks and feels silly. You know what I mean?

  12. #44812
    Scarab Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fid View Post
    1). I am lv 12 and I want to change class/job. Should I restart with a new toon or can I use the same?
    2). Is there a setting to change how the character is locked in a casting animation and then an awkward/laggy movement happens? It looks and feels silly. You know what I mean?
    Up to you if you want to restart since lvl 12 is easily done again, but you can switch classes once you've completed your lvl 10 class quest, and then heading to the appropriate guild to unlock it. Once you've completed the quest to unlock it, just equip the class' weapon.

  13. #44813
    Bloodsail Admiral Dugna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Shrinking the combat oriented quests does nothing but exacerbate the problem we're talking about. All it does is push the time spent talking and teleporting into a higher percentage which is the exact opposite of what we actually want.

    There's a lot of entitlement and dead weight in FF14.
    cut down the post a bit to make room,

    First one, I've recently replayed the MSQ again on a alt just for a fun, made it through the ARR-HW quests in record time also, alot of points that were tedious where combat only and maybe like 2 quests where the scions repeated something for the heck of it, like Moenbryda and Urianger repeating the explanation of the white auracite for the 3rd time in a row one of those times could be cut and thats bout it for the flow i'd see in ARR-HW questline. Having everybody talk LS is a convenience that comes with learning who people are or meeting them first its like having a phone conversation after getting their cell number, and LS in general while a common thing with the playbase and some higher up npcs is a luxury overall.

    So for alot of the back and forth of that questline its slowly dealing with one problem arising after another, one time you could be building up the crystal braves, another could be dealing with whats happening in coerthas, another is viewing the the happenings of uldah and the increasingly horrid fallout of the war involving Ala Mhigo and the empire and the occupation. Theres also the domans comming over and us helping them rebuild in Eoreza. All questlines while serperate in their conclusions are linked so heavily and buildup so much of what we do in HW and SB has a reason at all besides "garelans bad and we good!".

    and to the entitlement and dead weight of FF14 theres ALOT less of it in ff14 then there is in WoW

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fid View Post
    1). I am lv 12 and I want to change class/job. Should I restart with a new toon or can I use the same?
    2). Is there a setting to change how the character is locked in a casting animation and then an awkward/laggy movement happens? It looks and feels silly. You know what I mean?
    You can switch at lvl 10 and be any job you want on a character lvling 1-15 is super easy with the hunting log which the first few mobs are things outside the major hub of where you pickup the class/job.

    and that animation lock is a thing you can change in the movement options

  14. #44814
    Quote Originally Posted by Fid View Post
    1). I am lv 12 and I want to change class/job. Should I restart with a new toon or can I use the same?
    2). Is there a setting to change how the character is locked in a casting animation and then an awkward/laggy movement happens? It looks and feels silly. You know what I mean?
    Just got to any guild in a capital city, take the first quest to get the class unlocked, equip the weapon and bam you are the new job. My recommendation is save gear loadouts -its the little plus to the right of the character above the items if memory serves- and save a couple on a side hotbar. It swaps weapon and all your gear to what it was last for that job and you can always update it. Meaning if i want to heal i hit the AST button and im an astrologian in full healer gear, i hit the DRK button and im a dark knight in tank gear.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  15. #44815
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    thanks! i'm thinking of getting keys for my PS4 to link to my account so i can slack off on the couch and play some vs the PC all the time.
    If you wish to be even more lazy if you have the PS Vita you can remote play and play on the toilet. In an odd way you can use it to pick up and leave off as the session still runs on the PS4 when you disconnect on the Vita. Of course controls are a bit weird to use on Vita due to supplementing buttons with the touch pads.

  16. #44816
    Quote Originally Posted by kensim View Post
    Wow...I have some comments about that. Not all players care about much of the below, it is one of the reasons why WoW is now my secondary MMO. I have been top DPS in mulitple guilds doing advanced content in WoW, and tanked what I didn't dps.
    Try to remember the original reason for my examples and think from my POV. The poster I quoted had stated that "I remember when blizzard started giving out free boosts with expacs it lead to tons of people feeling entitled to clear everything and do everything with no effort at all."

    The reason I cited those examples were because they were heavily implying that FF14 doesn't suffer from the same exact problem, which is inaccurate. I then cited those anecdotes to better help them understand my logic. You arguing the validity of my anecdotes is pretty irrelevant to that discussion point. They clearly demonstrate that I'm right. That there is rampant entitlement and "carrying" occurring in FF14 right now.

    [*]How many 24 mans have I joined where I was top DPS as a tank So? Did you get the thing done? If it isn't advanced content who cares?
    I've looked over the logs time and time again when these things pop up. It's not about gear or people being bad. It's always the exact same issue every single time. It's people being lazy. It's people who only push buttons once every 8-12s. That's freeloading and it shouldn't be tolerated because it's disrespectful to other peoples time.

    I'll echo it here again since you may not know me. I will help, teach, or play with a bad player ANY day of the week with a smile on my face. I don't tolerate ignorance or laziness. If you're matched with a team you OWE them your best effort regardless of your performance level. And no, pushing buttons every 8s is no ones best effort.

    [*]How about dungeons where I had players doing less DPS than I was doing more than a full expansion ago? Again who cares, makes it feel like you are promoting yourself here. Maybe you are an elite player, by definition that means that others won't be. What is the problem?
    This has nothing to do with me. It has to do with others not pulling equivalent weight. It's not about performance. I'm not asking for top tier DPS or speedruns from the community. All I ask is that they try. And for reference I've done testing on this. You can literally mash 1 button over and over again and do more DPS than the previous expansion. If you are doing less, it's because you're purposely choosing to disrespect your teammates (barring repeated deaths, but that's a separate issue with more nuance).

    [*]How about FFLogs or parsers and the general lack of accountability or responsibility among the community? I play FFXIV to have fun, i did the whole WOWLOGS and DPS Parses thing already, as long as the boss dies and I am not too much of a burden the focus on the fun.
    While I appreciate the insight into your personal reasons here, your comment really doesn't do anything to address what I said. That there is a staggering if not downright toxic divide in the community with regards to parsing/logs and that toxicity is bred from the friction between players who care and players who don't being forced into the same puddle (if WoW does only a single thing perfectly IMO, it's that it segregates its playerbase into like minded players VERY well).

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    To be fair, that list could be entirely transplanted to WoW with similar effect. Just replace 24 man with LFR.
    That's my whole point though. Is that it exists in both games. The poster I quoted very heavily implied that FF14 doesn't have this issue.

    I'm confident in my ability to learn, but I've been around long enough to know some people aren't as good at that and I'm not a fan of "learning" parties simply because without a dedicated group of good players there's not much learning going on except the names of which players suck the most/ are having a bad day because the group can't last long enough in the fight to learn anything.
    In my experience with Extreme Primals and Savage Pugs, learning parties are 100% the best way to go. It's the only time that people are really on the same page.

    My experience with you personally as a player who actively engages in this type of content, really just made it more apparent that there are all types of players at all types of skill levels, but if it's done anything it's really highlighted the fact that people like you (genuinely decent people who are just wanting to play at that level of game play for the fun of it and are willing to help others out) tend to stick together and are therefore pretty rare to find out in the wild , so to speak. Which highlights another thing that's been said a million times in every MMO ever: Finding a good guild/ group of people to play with can make all the difference in the world as to your experience with end game content.
    One of my favorite things to do in FF14 (not as much in WoW) is to help people. I love just hopping in random learning parties and helping teach people, or before my permaban from OF helping other people learn how to tank etc. I get great joy from helping someone who is genuinely interested in learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    There's a lot of it in WoW too, the big difference I notice is that WoW allows for you to deal with those players. I can remove someone from my group if they're holding the rest of us back. There are tools like Recount and Warcraft logs that allow me to break down where my group is going wrong and how I should fix it. If that means replacing the guy who dies on all the mechanics, or the guy who's doing less DPS than the Resto Shaman with someone better, Blizzard are okay with me doing that. Other people in the group are usually okay with it too.

    With FF14 people tend to be upset by it. Justifying it with reasoning like "They were doing horrible DPS" doesn't seem to really fly with either the playerbase nor with Squenix. Holding those who are a problem to account is a minefield in FF14.

    What I do have are expectations of other players. I know to some that's a dirty word and they're going to immediately jump to the conclusion that my "expectations" are that everyone around me is armed to the teeth and performing at 110% of their Jobs maximum. That couldn't be further from the truth. In reality, I set my expectations at having a minimum level of respect for the people you're playing with. That you respect their time by not intentionaly wasting it. That you respect what the group is trying to achieve and are willing to work towards that.
    Couldn't agree more and if I wasn't clear originally. I do wholeheartedly agree that it exists in both games, which was the entire point of my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwulf View Post
    Impatience doesnt always mean they are bad players. Some people work full time and dont want to slog through 3 months just to be able to play with their friends. Instant gratification can lead to entitled players, but fixing 1-50 doesn't have to be only instant gratification.
    Bingo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    and to the entitlement and dead weight of FF14 theres ALOT less of it in ff14 then there is in WoW.
    That is your opinion. My experience has been the complete opposite. I listed numerous examples. I can't list any meaningful ones except for maybe like 3 in my entire 14 years with WoW. One was a guy who bought his account. Another was a priest who was so bad, that we abandoned a M+ key before the first boss. He just kept dying to Volcanic repeatedly and never said a word.

    Let me ask you this. Do you use FFLogs/ACT? If your answer is no, then frankly you don't have nearly enough information to make your claim.

    And just to add another bit. I was leveling RDM for fun. I had gear 30 levels too low for me and a level like 12 ring. I deliberately went in and did NOTHING but spam impact over and over again in the 24 man we were doing. Not only did no one say a word to me or kick me (they should have). I got commendations, and managed to out perform 2 other DPS.

    What I did was not ok. I felt terrible for doing it, but it was for science and needed to be done.

  17. #44817
    Pandaren Monk The Casualty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I've looked over the logs time and time again when these things pop up. It's not about gear or people being bad. It's always the exact same issue every single time. It's people being lazy. It's people who only push buttons once every 8-12s. That's freeloading and it shouldn't be tolerated because it's disrespectful to other peoples time.........

    ......This has nothing to do with me. It has to do with others not pulling equivalent weight. It's not about performance. I'm not asking for top tier DPS or speedruns from the community. All I ask is that they try. And for reference I've done testing on this. You can literally mash 1 button over and over again and do more DPS than the previous expansion. If you are doing less, it's because you're purposely choosing to disrespect your teammates (barring repeated deaths, but that's a separate issue with more nuance).
    Amen. It's also unfortunate that a fair bit of content is designed where you can slide with only half of the people there putting in any semblance of effort.

    I'm not a big fan of a "we cleared it so what" attitude. I'm sure I'm not the only one who works a job, has a family etc... Many of us are busy. When playing FFXIV, I REALLY do not want to spend 4-5x as long as it should take on content and have the only hang up be that other people literally do not want to play the game or take any time to learn even the most basic mechanics like combos. I want to clarify too, that I'm not counting new folks or people who look like they are trying. It's the people who are intentionally wasting everyone else's time that really get to me.

    Wreck isn't exaggerating if you know what you are looking for or run fflogs. In any given 24 man there will be people who have significant delays in their ability usage - so bad that they have 1/4 the apm of an average player. You might see melee DPS/tanks who are doing uncomboed weaponskills in no specific order, or Black Mages who sit in Umbral for the entire instance, and healers who rely on their co-healer to do the healing and then do absolutely nothing for the entire instance.

    I did Void Ark with some friends last night. On the first boss there was a monk who did a whopping 292 DPS. Compare that to the top at 2.27k. 292 DPS wasn't even good in the second coil of Bahamut with i100 gear. They could have spammed nothing but bootshine and done significantly more damage. The 3rd boss had 4 DPS below 700, none of them had any deaths. While I wasn't watching what they were doing, they were all doing low enough that they would have to intentionally be playing that poorly.

    For comparison, one of them was a BLM doing 632. They were synced down from 70 and at ilevel cap for the instance. Stripping my lv 64 BLM down to only a weapon and right side accessories, leaving me with an ilevel average of 146 - far below what could get into Void Ark and only using the abilities from the first 5 levels of Thaumaturge - Fire, Blizzard, Transpose, I was able to exceed that on a dummy.

    In situations like that, it's less of "we cleared" and more of "everyone else cleared and you happened to be in the instance while we did it."

  18. #44818
    Bloodsail Admiral Dugna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    That is your opinion. My experience has been the complete opposite. I listed numerous examples. I can't list any meaningful ones except for maybe like 3 in my entire 14 years with WoW. One was a guy who bought his account. Another was a priest who was so bad, that we abandoned a M+ key before the first boss. He just kept dying to Volcanic repeatedly and never said a word.

    Let me ask you this. Do you use FFLogs/ACT? If your answer is no, then frankly you don't have nearly enough information to make your claim.

    And just to add another bit. I was leveling RDM for fun. I had gear 30 levels too low for me and a level like 12 ring. I deliberately went in and did NOTHING but spam impact over and over again in the 24 man we were doing. Not only did no one say a word to me or kick me (they should have). I got commendations, and managed to out perform 2 other DPS.

    What I did was not ok. I felt terrible for doing it, but it was for science and needed to be done.
    less an opinion and more an actual fact, and if you only have 3 meaningful it means you never ran outside your guild cept for rare occasions.

    You don't need to use FFlogs/ACT to have an opinion on anything in ff14 either raiding or more, because none of the content is tuned around that shit in the first place unlike WoW. Did you do the mechs right on a EX trial? good thats basically 95% of the fight, the other 5% is you being decent at dps.

    Ohh and doing the alliance raid roulette while lvling is like doing LFR but nerfed to the ground, as long as you stand in the shit or don't stand in the shit you need you will kill that boss. so you taking gear of like that tells nothing besides you met 2 afk or people just wanting to lvl from the roulette. None of the lvling content that includes old content being put into the roulette is even aimed to challenge people for a reason. Its how SE designed it.


    In actual FF14 news though, GARO temp event looks to be soldified to be ending on 5.1 glad its 5.1 meaning after lvling stuff in SHB I can get all the sets and such
    Last edited by Dugna; 2019-04-26 at 07:18 PM.

  19. #44819
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I've looked over the logs time and time again when these things pop up. It's not about gear or people being bad. It's always the exact same issue every single time. It's people being lazy. It's people who only push buttons once every 8-12s. That's freeloading and it shouldn't be tolerated because it's disrespectful to other peoples time.

    I'll echo it here again since you may not know me. I will help, teach, or play with a bad player ANY day of the week with a smile on my face. I don't tolerate ignorance or laziness. If you're matched with a team you OWE them your best effort regardless of your performance level. And no, pushing buttons every 8s is no ones best effort.

    This has nothing to do with me. It has to do with others not pulling equivalent weight. It's not about performance. I'm not asking for top tier DPS or speedruns from the community. All I ask is that they try. And for reference I've done testing on this. You can literally mash 1 button over and over again and do more DPS than the previous expansion. If you are doing less, it's because you're purposely choosing to disrespect your teammates (barring repeated deaths, but that's a separate issue with more nuance).
    100% agreed. As long as you are being respectful of the fact that other peoples time is at stake here and you're doing your best to get the job done as efficiently and effectively as possible I don't really care.

    While I appreciate the insight into your personal reasons here, your comment really doesn't do anything to address what I said. That there is a staggering if not downright toxic divide in the community with regards to parsing/logs and that toxicity is bred from the friction between players who care and players who don't being forced into the same puddle (if WoW does only a single thing perfectly IMO, it's that it segregates its playerbase into like minded players VERY well).
    I don't think you need to actively use logs/parsing to know when a person is actively trying, it just makes it a LOT easier and makes it possible to pinpoint exactly what they're doing wrong. I'm usually just caring enough to simply point out "you're doing it wrong" and give some pointers. I'd say 1/3 of the time it turns out well, 2/3...not so much. Hostility or some kind of attitude from the player or from others in the group the vast majority of the time, or just flat out ignored. I personally don't use logs, just because I don't want to have to deal with setting it up and don't care that much about the numbers, but I do care a LOT about people doing their job in dungeons and trials. 24 Mans I honestly don't care. Calling someone out in that environment is a lost cause, same as calling someone out in LFR is. I just suck it up and provide encounter advice when I see people struggling. As long as it gets cleared I don't care.

    That's my whole point though. Is that it exists in both games. The poster I quoted very heavily implied that FF14 doesn't have this issue.
    Agreed then.

    In my experience with Extreme Primals and Savage Pugs, learning parties are 100% the best way to go. It's the only time that people are really on the same page.
    Don't disagree with this sentiment, in my experience there's just a lot more frustration than there is learning. Granted, by the time I get to the point where I'm learning those things, which is a few weeks after it launches or later, the "good" players have all already been there done that and usually aren't interested in joining one which leaves the "not so good" players. (using big brackets, I know there are a bazillion different kinds of players, this is for generalization) I've joined probably 15-20 learning parties, started ~10 and not a single fucking one ever even got to phase two of the encounter, or did so on the first try and never again, because many of the players who joined couldn't consistently follow the mechanics...like they were starting from scratch every time the fight started.

    I just have very little faith in the ability of a PuG group to be genuinely good players that can get shit done in environments like that, where a good healer/ clutch player can't save you from your mistakes.

    One of my favorite things to do in FF14 (not as much in WoW) is to help people. I love just hopping in random learning parties and helping teach people, or before my permaban from OF helping other people learn how to tank etc. I get great joy from helping someone who is genuinely interested in learning.
    I'm not as benevolently minded as you in this regard, but I have absolutely no problem teaching people who WANT to learn. I have no patience or tolerance for people who are willfully ignorant or refuse to acknowledge that they could possibly learn something.



    That is your opinion. My experience has been the complete opposite. I listed numerous examples. I can't list any meaningful ones except for maybe like 3 in my entire 14 years with WoW. One was a guy who bought his account. Another was a priest who was so bad, that we abandoned a M+ key before the first boss. He just kept dying to Volcanic repeatedly and never said a word.

    Let me ask you this. Do you use FFLogs/ACT? If your answer is no, then frankly you don't have nearly enough information to make your claim.

    And just to add another bit. I was leveling RDM for fun. I had gear 30 levels too low for me and a level like 12 ring. I deliberately went in and did NOTHING but spam impact over and over again in the 24 man we were doing. Not only did no one say a word to me or kick me (they should have). I got commendations, and managed to out perform 2 other DPS.

    What I did was not ok. I felt terrible for doing it, but it was for science and needed to be done.
    Just re-iterating that I don't fully subscribe to the idea that it's a requirement to use FFLogs and such to understand or have a good grasp of people's performance and know that there's a pretty significant population in both games that are dead weight.

    I think the statement you're referring to is off-base as well, I just think you don't need to look at logs to be aware of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    Amen. It's also unfortunate that a fair bit of content is designed where you can slide with only half of the people there putting in any semblance of effort.
    I agree somewhat. Most content when it's current absolutely requires the majority of, if not all, of your group to put in effort to clear. However, this changes pretty rapidly once people get geared enough to outgear the content, in which case it does take less effort overall and you could have a group almost entirely carried by a half decent healer or tank.

    I'm not a big fan of a "we cleared it so what" attitude. I'm sure I'm not the only one who works a job, has a family etc... Many of us are busy. When playing FFXIV, I REALLY do not want to spend 4-5x as long as it should take on content and have the only hang up be that other people literally do not want to play the game or take any time to learn even the most basic mechanics like combos. I want to clarify too, that I'm not counting new folks or people who look like they are trying. It's the people who are intentionally wasting everyone else's time that really get to me.
    Overall, I'm more in the "we cleared it, so what" attitude than the other extreme, but only because I don't care about actual number outputs not because I don't care about performance. If people are saying this when people are being lazy, screwing up constantly, or screwing around...I have no tolerance for it. If you sign up for group content, do the job you signed up for and do it to the best of your ability, otherwise you're deliberately not carrying your weight which is disrespectful of everyone else's time. If you're not going to PLAY, why are you playing?

    Wreck isn't exaggerating if you know what you are looking for or run fflogs. In any given 24 man there will be people who have significant delays in their ability usage - so bad that they have 1/4 the apm of an average player. You might see melee DPS/tanks who are doing uncomboed weaponskills in no specific order, or Black Mages who sit in Umbral for the entire instance, and healers who rely on their co-healer to do the healing and then do absolutely nothing for the entire instance.

    I did Void Ark with some friends last night. On the first boss there was a monk who did a whopping 292 DPS. Compare that to the top at 2.27k. 292 DPS wasn't even good in the second coil of Bahamut with i100 gear. They could have spammed nothing but bootshine and done significantly more damage. The 3rd boss had 4 DPS below 700, none of them had any deaths. While I wasn't watching what they were doing, they were all doing low enough that they would have to intentionally be playing that poorly.

    For comparison, one of them was a BLM doing 632. They were synced down from 70 and at ilevel cap for the instance. Stripping my lv 64 BLM down to only a weapon and right side accessories, leaving me with an ilevel average of 146 - far below what could get into Void Ark and only using the abilities from the first 5 levels of Thaumaturge - Fire, Blizzard, Transpose, I was able to exceed that on a dummy.

    In situations like that, it's less of "we cleared" and more of "everyone else cleared and you happened to be in the instance while we did it."
    It's not an exaggeration, but I do think the frequency may be overstated a bit...at least it seems that way based on my experience. I've seen it plenty of times, but not at a frequency where I would call it normal. I wouldn't call it an exception either though... it's infrequent, but not rare.

    I'll never understand why players do this, I understand the logic, but not the choice to do it. Many times it's players just grinding to get to the next gear level or whatever and are "forced" to do things they don't enjoy because it's the efficient (or sometimes only, as as the case of Eureka) way, but couldn't give two shits about it so they semi-afk in these dungeons/areas. If you're so uninvested in the game where you can't even push yourself to actually PLAY the game when you're playing...why the hell are you signed in and playing the game? If you're so disinterested, why not find something else that you actually enjoy doing?

  20. #44820
    Warchief Advent's Avatar
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    Probably because they're entirely driven by the reward, but the content is not engaging in the slightest. I sometimes find myself nodding off in the 24mans. But I have to do them for the coins or else I can't upgrade my tome gear at all. I really wanted a eureka weapon, but it was so dull and boring during the first 10 minutes trying to kill on damn mob that I left and never went back. Didn't make me any less bitter about not having the cool weapon I wanted though.

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