1. #44821
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Hmm I find the 24mans quite fun but then again I only go in with friends and ACT.

  2. #44822
    Booted up Cerbs NN last night to see if I could try and help anyone and bloody hell was literally 2 people having an argument over "wah I don't like you" and "you don't like me" shit basically.

    Honestly I just feel like the servers gotten a lot more dramallama as of late and tempted to just go Light for a fresh start. Most of my friends are on Phoenix or Zodiark (some moved cross DC) and I just stayed on Cerb for a few ingame ones.

    Not saying Cerb is the only server with drama because that's would be a stupid thing to suggest but it's been a lot more noticeable lately.
    Last edited by Eleccybubb; 2019-04-27 at 10:00 AM.

  3. #44823
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    What is "NN"?

    I see no more drama on Cerb compared to any WoW server I've seen so far. Just the usual stuff.

  4. #44824
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    What is "NN"?

    I see no more drama on Cerb compared to any WoW server I've seen so far. Just the usual stuff.
    Novice Network. Any time I've gone in as of late just been the same people arguing when I just want to help people.

    I ended up moving to Light anyway. I'm not singling Cerb out nor did I mean to I just meant that from my perspective it seems there's a lot more drama as of late. As I said most of my RL friends are on Light servers and took advantage of the free transfer (wish I had) so I figured I'd just make a fresh start there.

  5. #44825
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Ah okay, thanks for explaining.
    Never really looked into the NN, don't care all that much for random spamming.

  6. #44826
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Ah okay, thanks for explaining.
    Never really looked into the NN, don't care all that much for random spamming.
    Yeah I just like to try and help players and give new players who may want it a bit of a social experience but when you've got idiots arguing over why they hate each other well meh...

    Of course it's not exclusive to Cerberus at all. However it just feels like that it's a bit more drama infested these days.

    Of course drama exists in any MMOs but with FF14 I feel it's more noticeable.
    Last edited by Eleccybubb; 2019-04-27 at 03:14 PM.

  7. #44827
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
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    I got the game last weekend, got to 58 tonight after buying the story skip. really been enjoying the game play, started as BLM but it was SO slow, went BRD at 15, got bard to 52, tried red mage, and now thats at 58. hoping to pound out the main story as fast as possible and get to end game content.

    Overall i am a big fan of the game, but the average player in this, is much, much worse then any other mmo i have ever played. I watch streamers clearing the hardest raids and just performing awful with very little knowledge of their own jobs priority system. Luckily I got into a raid guild with in IRL buddy, so hoping the problem will resolve itself. we will see.

    all in all, super fun game, my only complaints are about the players ive been stuck in dungeons/roulettes with, and the lack of addons. cause my god, the ui is not good. LOL

  8. #44828
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Now that finals are over I got a chance to really do the FFXV stuff. I think it's cool, although I don't think it should be a limited time event. I'd like it as a permanent addition, like (seemingly) the Monster Hunter collaboration. I do think the fact that most of the cool rewards are locked behind the Golden Saucer is a weird decision, although as someone who hasn't done the Golden Saucer before, I thought it was pretty cool. It's a fun little distraction that you can dip into for a bit of variety.

    The bosses in the quests were cool too. Overall, I like what they did with it.

  9. #44829
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Yeah I just like to try and help players and give new players who may want it a bit of a social experience but when you've got idiots arguing over why they hate each other well meh...

    Of course it's not exclusive to Cerberus at all. However it just feels like that it's a bit more drama infested these days.

    Of course drama exists in any MMOs but with FF14 I feel it's more noticeable.
    On Zalera we just get trolls lol, but for the most part the NN is either normal conversation or actual game mechanic conversation.

  10. #44830
    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    In situations like that, it's less of "we cleared" and more of "everyone else cleared and you happened to be in the instance while we did it."
    I usually call this the "equivalency test". If every single player played as poorly as your weakest link would you have cleared or still had fun? I.e. in my shield lob only tank example, what if I had done nothing but spam piercing talon? I'd be TP starved doing literally no DPS. What If the other DPS did it too? What if the healer only used Cure or god forbid decided to only use Stone? This would fail the equivalency test. People wouldn't be having fun, and even if you managed to clear, it'd be an abysmal experience.

    I encounter an equivalency fail probably a good 50%+ of the time I queue into content, even PF content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    less an opinion and more an actual fact, and if you only have 3 meaningful it means you never ran outside your guild cept for rare occasions.
    I'm not confident that you know what a fact actually is. What you're citing is patently what is called an opinion.

    You also make assumptions that you don't have the data to backup. I am an avid pugger, in both games for all levels of content, including Savage and Mythic.

    You don't need to use FFlogs/ACT to have an opinion on anything in ff14 either raiding or more, because none of the content is tuned around that shit in the first place unlike WoW. Did you do the mechs right on a EX trial? good thats basically 95% of the fight, the other 5% is you being decent at dps.
    So to confirm - you are admitting that you don't use ACT/FFLogs correct?

    Ohh and doing the alliance raid roulette while lvling is like doing LFR but nerfed to the ground, as long as you stand in the shit or don't stand in the shit you need you will kill that boss. so you taking gear of like that tells nothing besides you met 2 afk or people just wanting to lvl from the roulette. None of the lvling content that includes old content being put into the roulette is even aimed to challenge people for a reason. Its how SE designed it.
    None of this discounts what I experienced or justifies those players actions nor does it have anything to do with difficulty level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I don't think you need to actively use logs/parsing to know when a person is actively trying, it just makes it a LOT easier and makes it possible to pinpoint exactly what they're doing wrong.
    I've only ever noticed absolutely egregious examples because I'm usually far too busy managing my own play to actually micro manage others live performances, let alone MULTIPLE others. I'm not saying you NEED it to see it, but without it, it's a trivia game in the best scenario and Russian roulette in the worst. I could pretty trivially play at 30% of my optimal performance and make it look normal to the average player, and without ACT probably wouldn't notice unless they were knowledgeable about PLD and really watched me, Do that without impacting their performance? I'd bet against it TBH.

    Granted, by the time I get to the point where I'm learning those things, which is a few weeks after it launches or later, the "good" players have all already been there done that and usually aren't interested in joining one which leaves the "not so good" players.
    Fair point - if I can STRONGLY recommend that you try to pug the first week. Every Savage pugger knows that if you don't clear 1/2 the first week, you're stuck with the riff raff. You can clear the 3rd fight usually second week and be ok, but it gets dicier each week.

    I just have very little faith in the ability of a PuG group to be genuinely good players that can get shit done in environments like that, where a good healer/ clutch player can't save you from your mistakes.
    Some of the best players I've played with were from PUGs.

    It's not an exaggeration, but I do think the frequency may be overstated a bit...at least it seems that way based on my experience. I've seen it plenty of times, but not at a frequency where I would call it normal. I wouldn't call it an exception either though... it's infrequent, but not rare.
    It just depends entirely on what content I'm doing. Savage/EX Trials? It's every PUG. There's always at least one player that you have to generally remove for one reason or the other and replace. Normal Mode raids? Usually 1 player that SHOULD be removed, but won't. 24 mans? usually a good 3-4 that should be kicked. Dungeons? Probably 1/3 of the time I have an equivalency fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Booted up Cerbs NN last night to see if I could try and help anyone and bloody hell was literally 2 people having an argument over "wah I don't like you" and "you don't like me" shit basically.

    Honestly I just feel like the servers gotten a lot more dramallama as of late and tempted to just go Light for a fresh start. Most of my friends are on Phoenix or Zodiark (some moved cross DC) and I just stayed on Cerb for a few ingame ones.

    Not saying Cerb is the only server with drama because that's would be a stupid thing to suggest but it's been a lot more noticeable lately.
    NN is consistently awful on my server. Just your average "mentor" with every job at 70, who can't even read at a kindergarten level, but is somehow a guru on all things, except pushing buttons every GCD. Hint: Most of the time it's some wannabe elitist who wipes on normal modes.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    all in all, super fun game, my only complaints are about the players ive been stuck in dungeons/roulettes with, and the lack of addons. cause my god, the ui is not good. LOL
    I'd be curious if you had specific examples of the players you've been "stuck" with. For science of course.

  11. #44831
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I usually call this the "equivalency test". If every single player played as poorly as your weakest link would you have cleared or still had fun? I.e. in my shield lob only tank example, what if I had done nothing but spam piercing talon? I'd be TP starved doing literally no DPS. What If the other DPS did it too? What if the healer only used Cure or god forbid decided to only use Stone? This would fail the equivalency test. People wouldn't be having fun, and even if you managed to clear, it'd be an abysmal experience.

    I encounter an equivalency fail probably a good 50%+ of the time I queue into content, even PF content.
    I get where you're coming from, but I don't really think that's all that fair. The chances of a group comprised of nothing but failures is exceedingly low. If you have to ask the question, as a theoretical "would we have cleared it...?" then I find it somewhat irrelevant.

    Maybe I've just "accepted" the fact that you'll run across those kinds of players, and so long as we're still still moving along and they're willing to learn and try, I'll just keep chugging. If they're an asshole about it and refuse to learn, I'll kick them the first chance I get for harassment. The problem is, in many cases, by the time the group is allowed to kick we're halfway or more done with the dungeon, and if it's a tank or healer, we'll wait longer than if we just sucked it up and got it done with the slacker.


    I've only ever noticed absolutely egregious examples because I'm usually far too busy managing my own play to actually micro manage others live performances, let alone MULTIPLE others. I'm not saying you NEED it to see it, but without it, it's a trivia game in the best scenario and Russian roulette in the worst. I could pretty trivially play at 30% of my optimal performance and make it look normal to the average player, and without ACT probably wouldn't notice unless they were knowledgeable about PLD and really watched me, Do that without impacting their performance? I'd bet against it TBH.
    The kind of content I do, which is just dungeons, normal raids and trials and 24 man stuff, at least for now maybe I'll do Savage stuff at some point, the difference between a 15 minute run and a 20 minute run isn't THAT noticeable. So you're right in that I likely don't notice every example of it, but after doing that kind of stuff enough, you get a good gauge on how long stuff should take to kill, how low your tank gets on health before heals, etc... so you can kinda feel where the gap is.

    If I used ACT/FFLogs I'm sure I'd be able to to notice everyone who slacks a bit or under performs. Maybe I'll check it out... I tried it once a while ago and I honestly just hated having it on my screen, aesthetically. I'll look into customization options and such to hopefully make it far less intrusive and distracting.

    Fair point - if I can STRONGLY recommend that you try to pug the first week. Every Savage pugger knows that if you don't clear 1/2 the first week, you're stuck with the riff raff. You can clear the 3rd fight usually second week and be ok, but it gets dicier each week.
    Because of how I play, my gear level usually isn't close to where it would need to be, or where I'd be comfortable, for taking on that content which is why I don't usually get around to trying until a couple weeks later.

    Some of the best players I've played with were from PUGs.
    Same here, but they're a diamond in the rough in my experience. But I also don't PUG savage and Mythic stuff like you do where people like this tend to gravitate towards. By the time I'm PUG'ing that content it's mostly dregs, which is why I usually stay away from it. It's just not an enjoyable experience.

    It just depends entirely on what content I'm doing. Savage/EX Trials? It's every PUG. There's always at least one player that you have to generally remove for one reason or the other and replace. Normal Mode raids? Usually 1 player that SHOULD be removed, but won't. 24 mans? usually a good 3-4 that should be kicked. Dungeons? Probably 1/3 of the time I have an equivalency fail.
    As I said, I don't do the higher end content where high end performance is a requirement. Mediocre performance, as a group, is enough to clear most stuff in this game. Equivalency fail, I think is a bit of a false metric as I said before. No I don't think a group should have to carry someone like that, but it's all about time for me. If it's going to take an equivalent or more time to replace that person, why not just finish the run? Especially as a DPS queuing though...even if a dungeon takes three times longer than it should, that's STILL better than having to wait in the duty finder queue again most times.

    NN is consistently awful on my server. Just your average "mentor" with every job at 70, who can't even read at a kindergarten level, but is somehow a guru on all things, except pushing buttons every GCD. Hint: Most of the time it's some wannabe elitist who wipes on normal modes.
    I've never even been on it since the first week it was in the game, for this very reason. It's full of absolutely whiny babies and idiots.

  12. #44832
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I get where you're coming from, but I don't really think that's all that fair. The chances of a group comprised of nothing but failures is exceedingly low. If you have to ask the question, as a theoretical "would we have cleared it...?" then I find it somewhat irrelevant.
    The equivalency fail test is merely my measure to determine if someone is being disrespectful to my/others time. Nothing more nothing less. It's not really about the chance of it happening, but more so would other people have fun if I played like they did?

    The kind of content I do, which is just dungeons, normal raids and trials and 24 man stuff, at least for now maybe I'll do Savage stuff at some point, the difference between a 15 minute run and a 20 minute run isn't THAT noticeable. So you're right in that I likely don't notice every example of it, but after doing that kind of stuff enough, you get a good gauge on how long stuff should take to kill, how low your tank gets on health before heals, etc... so you can kinda feel where the gap is.
    It's not about the difference between a 15 and 20 minute run. See below a post I made last year.

    So on the OF a lot of the time people say that DF runs are never as bad as we say. I needed to cap tomes last week and I still want my skalla tank gear so I ran it 3 times to cap here are my results.

    Run#1


    Very good WHM, downright awful DPS. They weren't even that low ilvl (320 ish). 21 minute run.

    Run #2


    Dear god. I almost died here. Imagine if the healer was a 0 DPS healer. I would have lost it. So much dead weight. 26+ minute run.

    Run #3


    1 Good DPS (i330-340 SMN), 1 good SAM (i300-310) and a good healer. 16+ minute run.

    Looking at the data, none of these were "good runs" in that every single person was geared and knew their jobs. In the 3rd run, I got good players, but the healer and the SAM were both very low (ilvl i300 weapons). I'll be curious to see how my next set of skalla runs goes.

    Bonus:

    My O6N run.



    Almost took as long to kill as my savage clear...

  13. #44833
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    The equivalency fail test is merely my measure to determine if someone is being disrespectful to my/others time. Nothing more nothing less. It's not really about the chance of it happening, but more so would other people have fun if I played like they did?
    That's a fair assessment then, I guess I kind of do the same thing then, just without really thinking about it. It's more of a drive to just play the game as well as I can...that's why I signed into it to begin with, and not ever wanting to be a burden.

    It's not about the difference between a 15 and 20 minute run. See below a post I made last year.
    Yeah that's a pretty big difference, ~10 minutes and that's between a "bad" run and a "decent" run. I'm sure a "great" run would shave off a couple more minutes at least. That said, the main issue for me is two fold: 1) By the time you're able to actually kick someone (isn't it 15 minutes after the duty starts? or is it 5?) you're mostly done, usually. 2) I'm a DPS the vast majority of the time, so the only people I'd kick are either the other DPS, the tank or the healer.

    So, a few points:
    1) I'm decent enough both skill and gear wise to chug us along without the need to kick and replace the other DPS, but I wouldn't kick them JUST for being bad, they'd have to be unwilling to improve or be an asshole on top of that, and that's pretty rare in my experience. But in those rare cases, it has been totally worth it.
    2) Kicking and replacing is a gamble in itself because you're hoping you get someone better...you may not, and may in fact get someone worse.
    3) Kicking a tank or healer usually results in a relatively lengthy wait, which kind of makes kicking them pointless if the point was to save time. The amount of time saved by getting a good player usually doesn't outweigh the amount of time it takes to wait for a new player and then catch up to where you "should have bee" in the dungeon and then finish it.

    Bottom line, for me anyway, is in most cases it's just not worth it. If I'm really THAT desperate to do quick dungeon runs, I'll make a DF group with restrictions which I only ever did a couple times back in ARR for the relic quest chain. Nothing else since then has been difficult enough or aggravating enough for me not to be able to do it with a PUG....some PUGs just took longer than others.

  14. #44834
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    I think it is 5 minutes, 15m is the time it takes in WoW to be able to kick.

    I just had a lengthy discussion about this topic in the official forums and I still maintain that it is more efficient to drag the underperformer through compared to waiting for a refill (esp if it is a tank) and risking an aborted run.

    Don't get me wrong:lazy play aggravates me as much as the next @Wrecktangle but ultimately, it's a friggin dungeon, we won't wipe and I'll have some other entertainment running next to the window anyway. So big whoop.

    I do get a chuckle now and then watching ACT trying to figure out how any person can be THAT bad.

  15. #44835
    Has FFXI ever received a revamp of its quests to make it easier for players to catch up?

  16. #44836
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Has FFXI ever received a revamp of its quests to make it easier for players to catch up?
    XI didn't require that the expansions be played in order. You just went to the proper questgiver and you started the expansion.

    The original FFXI experience was centered around parties in the overworld. The FFXI revamp added NPC party members that allowed players to play through the overworld on their own. They also raised the level cap, which made the overworld easier as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    Now that finals are over I got a chance to really do the FFXV stuff. I think it's cool, although I don't think it should be a limited time event. I'd like it as a permanent addition, like (seemingly) the Monster Hunter collaboration. I do think the fact that most of the cool rewards are locked behind the Golden Saucer is a weird decision, although as someone who hasn't done the Golden Saucer before, I thought it was pretty cool. It's a fun little distraction that you can dip into for a bit of variety.

    The bosses in the quests were cool too. Overall, I like what they did with it.
    Not a fan of time limited events in general, especially when they are as easy as this. It punishes people who came into the game later. In WoW, riding around on a seasonal PvP mount feels like a badge of prestige, but I sometimes feel uncomfortable walking around town with my legendary cloak. It feels like I'm flaunting an item that was relatively easy to obtain (only real barrier to entry was the time required to get it) in the face of people who couldn't have gotten it simply because they weren't playing the game. It's worse when the item has mechanical value, such as allowing access to an exclusive zone (which was the best Timeless Coin farm location in the game).

    Hopefully the car will at least go up on the Mogstation, but it shouldn't have to go away in the first place.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - Druid / Steam / MyAnimeList / IMDB - - - - - - - - - - - -

  17. #44837
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Yeah that's a pretty big difference, ~10 minutes and that's between a "bad" run and a "decent" run. I'm sure a "great" run would shave off a couple more minutes at least.
    The real major point is that these 3 runs weren't cherry picked. They were literally all back to back and cataloged. You can see some clear equivalency fails here. Imagine if I was a lazy player now. How much worse would these runs have been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I think it is 5 minutes, 15m is the time it takes in WoW to be able to kick.

    I just had a lengthy discussion about this topic in the official forums and I still maintain that it is more efficient to drag the underperformer through compared to waiting for a refill (esp if it is a tank) and risking an aborted run.

    Don't get me wrong:lazy play aggravates me as much as the next @Wrecktangle but ultimately, it's a friggin dungeon, we won't wipe and I'll have some other entertainment running next to the window anyway. So big whoop.

    I do get a chuckle now and then watching ACT trying to figure out how any person can be THAT bad.
    Oh don't misunderstand, I didn't kick any of these sub-par players. In fact, in DF content I can count on 1 (maybe 2) hands the amount of times I've kicked someone for performance. It's gotta be BAD for me to kick and it's NEVER about efficiency at that point. It's about teaching a lesson (i.e. shield lob tank).

  18. #44838
    I'd like to know something, do mobs do more damage when hitting you from the flank/rear when tanking ?

  19. #44839
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    The real major point is that these 3 runs weren't cherry picked. They were literally all back to back and cataloged. You can see some clear equivalency fails here. Imagine if I was a lazy player now. How much worse would these runs have been?
    Which is somewhat of a moot point, IMO. Yes it WOULD have been worse, but would you ever let yourself get THAT lazy? Are you lazy?Pretty sure that's a resounding "NO." Which is the same with me, I'll always put forth my best effort in that kind of content: dungeons, trials, raids. (admittedly, I let myself get sloppy in PotD or HoH and in Eureka when I did play it, but sloppy is different than lazy, I still actively participated I just wasn't as concerned with executing perfectly/optimally).

    That is pretty sad though, that those were consecutive runs. I'll need to get ACT and configure it to not be so intrusive so I can have that kind of information as a reference. That's about the only thing I use Recount for in WoW anymore...and apparently no one uses Recount anymore, just found that out. LOL.

    Oh don't misunderstand, I didn't kick any of these sub-par players. In fact, in DF content I can count on 1 (maybe 2) hands the amount of times I've kicked someone for performance. It's gotta be BAD for me to kick and it's NEVER about efficiency at that point. It's about teaching a lesson (i.e. shield lob tank).
    Yeah same here, mainly because I honestly just don't want to risk getting reported for kicking them for something not on the list. If the player is THAT bad and is refusing help and being an ass...that's harassment and have no problem kicking them. If it's just performance and they're TRYING and just suck... I honestly feel bad for them knowing they're going to get a LOT of shit in their FFXIV experience as time goes on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTharne View Post
    I'd like to know something, do mobs do more damage when hitting you from the flank/rear when tanking ?
    They don't hit harder, but some attacks won't get blocked or parried, so overall yes you will take more damage.

  20. #44840
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    They don't hit harder, but some attacks won't get blocked or parried, so overall yes you will take more damage.
    Thanks, leveling an healer alt (48 at the moment) and I'm trying to understand how some tanks in the same dungeon, doing the same pulls and having the same CD usage (non existent 80% of the time...which is sad) still manage to have so much varying amount of damage taken even when they play the same job.

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