No actually there's no point in bringing jobs with utility with how it is right now (mainly dancer and ninja). As counterargument, what's the point of bringing the jobs with utility when you can bring a job that does more dps. And sure, in the top groups, people will want to bring jobs that have utility, but outside of that no one cares. All the groups I've talked to are full of sam, mch, and/or blm. It's ridiculous. Almost no ninja. People are playing dancer ofc cuz it's new but that won't last long if they stay this low.
Like I said though, if drg gets nerfed...it's stupid. Might as well just have monk/sam/mch/blm dps comp.
Also before anyone says anything, the dancer's buff strength comes from their dance partner buff, not the technical step. technical step isn't anything special. So you wanna bring dancer to buff 1 person at the cost of having a super low dps...?
Really depends on the player I guess. Granted my sample pool is all of 1 night of running Titania and Innocence EX and a dungeon, but as a Dancer I was pulling ~10k DPS, which is lower than other DPS but not THAT much lower as to make the class worthless when coupled with their damage buffs.
I get your point though, as it currently is the "utility" classes do DPS that is enough lower than the other classes as to not make them desirable to most groups.
I'd rather take a RDM or SMN than a BLM at the moment when it comes to pugs. The ability to res when it comes to new content is so helpful.
As for the rest it doesn't really matter. Most players you encounter in pugs are average at best. Whatever high their class can reach they wont get near it.
Considering that 99% is 9.4k on innocence and 9.2k on titania, I find it hard to believe you did 10k as dancer but w/e. They're around 9k right now on the high-end. Jobs like sam and mch are at 10k on the super low, not even looking, afk-end. It's a big difference. Most are at like 11k, with up to around 12k if they're getting catered.
Hmmm... 0 Deaths.
Then I looked at some other fights:
Then I said, I know for a fact that if I just spam Jolt or whatever the base RDM ability is I will do more damage:
This is literally just spamming the 1 key nonstop, dualcast and all and using Fleche & Contre Sixte on cooldown. My RDM is 62 and solo, so no buffs like litany, or INT, etc.
It brings us back full circle to my original complaint, is that raid buffs actually do more to harm balance then just removing them and adding the synergy and depth internally in each job. I don't think DRG needs a nerf per se, but others need buffs, including tanks IMO. I feel like tank DPS was butchered this expansion. I can barely sustain 50% of a top DPS' performance, so now even the worst of average players outperform me. It makes me not feel rewarded for playing well.
I'm in NA and while what you're saying is certainly possible, I have to imagine that the sheer frequency of it implies that the theory isn't likely.
I don't run ACT, asked a buddy who I ran with that night how I was doing and he gave the number because he runs ACT. It may have been from the Expert dungeon we ran prior to the EX stuff while waiting for the rest of the group to be ready. Not sure. I actually didn't ask or pay attention to how my performance was during the trials. We cleared Titania EX 3 times and moved on to Innocence who we didn't clear once due to not being able to beat the enrage timer because we had a couple DPS who just flat out couldn't hack it, mechanics or DPS wise. I know I was at least performing up to par in that respect, just not sure what the number was.
If that's the case where top end MCH, SAM and BLM are @ 12k and top end DNC are ~9.5k that's a more than minor difference. If they were only ~5% less that would be one thing, but that's like a ~30% difference, which is ridiculous. Thanks for the info.
If a DNC is doing 9.5k themselves, you have to also consider the increase in damage they're offering another DPS as part of their overall damage contribution. That's a key factor in support classes.
Such is the situation of support classes. It's harder to quantify how much someone else's numbers are increased as a result of the support class' presence.
9.5k seems like a wide gap to 12k but if that's 9.5 plus another 2k boosted as a result of their dance partner, etc. then you're actually balancing out more reasonably.
I'll leave it to the more obsessive to math out everything and determine the minutia of the details, though. Our raid has always been about people playing what they like and we find a way to make it work as a group.
You wanna talk about not feeling rewarded....it's playing an actual dps job but you cant do your full potential cuz you don't have the right comp and if you do another dps is getting all the buffs. I never had issue getting 90% or higher in wow but it's such a freaking chore in this game. Someday, dps will be managing your own shit and not relying on other people's buffs and whatnot. Removing the debuffs was a good first step, time to do more.
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It's 9.5k at the highest, like 100%. How many people do you think are doing that? The buff they give isn't worth bringing them over another job like mch right now. Only point to bring them right now is to pad someone's numbers. Also something else that wasn't mentioned since it's kind of off-topic but another issue with dancer right now is they're 100% rng-dependent so you can't even guarantee you can do 9.5k even if you are the best player in the world. Some pulls you will do much less with 0 fault. It's in a not good state atm.
Nothing you said addressed my question. How much of an increase do their buffs/dance partner increase?
You absolutely cannot take a class that is designed around increasing someone else's DPS as a support and look purely at the support class' direct DPS output and base an argument for them being horrible off that.
If they're not offering enough in the increase on others' to balance it, then yes, 100% they need boosting. It's a new job, it's not a surprise. We've been through this multiple times now and the team has made tweaks in the first patch to start buffing the new job up in the past. But when I see people saying a class that's built somewhat as a support class isn't pumping out enough pure damage themselves, I have to ask if people are absolutely ignoring the concept of support / buffing another DPS in the equation.
This is one of the reasons I get so damn irritated with the parser obsessed crowd. They so often get tunnel vision that the only thing they care about is how big their direct numbers are on a chart.
Last edited by Faroth; 2019-07-23 at 05:53 PM.
It was the dungeon, The EX was like a little over 6k IIRC. Nothing terrible for a min ilvl first time to the EX, especially with that trap ass party.
FFLogs is actually working on implementing a way to attribute padded DPS to the originator. I.e. DNC's DPS will be calculated in the logs by how much the player is boosted by, same with AST, etc.
I mean tanks are basically DPS too. I hate feeling like buffs don't apply to me (cards, DNC, tether, etc.) or not having trick attack/litany/chain, etc.
For me, on PLD, it was roughly a 600 DPS increase (or 9% gain). It's usually a bit higher on a DPS, but I'm not comfortable stating how much off the cuff because I haven't looked intimately at it.
The parser crowd, IMO, is right to be annoyed only because it's breeding a situation that we didn't want, that even the devs acknowledged they didn't want, but then they turned around and did it anyway while simultaneously removing other aspects of the issue. It makes them look like they're not sure what they're doing, but then again, balance was never this games strong suit. Yes it's not ANYWHERE as bad as WoW's (which before @Dugna accuses me of being a hate boner wielder, is undeniably awful), but it's also an infinitely more intricate game with significantly more variables. I expect much better balance from SE, because they have significantly less variables.
The buff that's possible to be up 100% of the time gives a 5% increase, the other one is a 5% increase to the raid/group on a 2 minute cooldown and the ridiculous Direct Hit and Critical hit buff is to the dance partner every 2 minutes.
Let's say ~5% as a conservative estimate, for the 1 person who has the full time buff because that's really the only unique thing about Dancer is that 10% up time buff on one other party member, several other DPS classes have raid wide output buffs.. That means it would increase a top tier DPS doing 12k to 12.6 k, while they are only doing ~9-9.5k.... the 600 DPS added isn't worth the 2.5k+ gap between DNC and another DPS. And that 600 DPS is for a top tier performing top tier DPS class...and the 2.5 k difference is a top tier performing Dancer. The average players will have lower numbers which make the gap even more pronounced.
See above. I agree with your logic, however putting that logic in practice as it stands now really just highlights that DNC isn't really worth the raid spot given the pretty huge disparity between them and most other DPS classes. There's a 25%+ difference in top tier performance outputs according to current parses.You absolutely cannot take a class that is designed around increasing someone else's DPS as a support and look purely at the support class' direct DPS output and base an argument for them being horrible off that.
All this. The job is fun to play and it's mechanics are fine (though it could stand to be a bit less RNG reliant), but just flat out isn't competitive with other DPS classes and needs buffing as far as it's own personal performance. That's a pretty easy fix though, comparatively, just tweak some potency numbers on their abilities and that's it, no huge mechanics changes really necessary.If they're not offering enough in the increase on others' to balance it, then yes, 100% they need boosting. It's a new job, it's not a surprise. We've been through this multiple times now and the team has made tweaks in the first patch to start buffing the new job up in the past. But when I see people saying a class that's built somewhat as a support class isn't pumping out enough pure damage themselves, I have to ask if people are absolutely ignoring the concept of support / buffing another DPS in the equation.
To be fair, those parses provide hard evidence as to what the actual gap is and how much of a buff/ nerf is necessary. In most content it doesn't matter at all since it's not all that difficult. In the high end content with legit enrage timers and hard DPS checks though, performance is all that matters. In that kind of content, DNC is really not worth the raid spot currently, compared to other DPS classes because the 5% buff it gives doesn't make up for how much less it' DPS is from other classes.This is one of the reasons I get so damn irritated with the parser obsessed crowd. They so often get tunnel vision that the only thing they care about is how big their direct numbers are on a chart.
I love Dancer, it's the most fun I've had playing a job in a long time, but I can't argue with the numbers as they are. I'll still play it in dungeons and normal mode raids, but with current performance, I'll be aiming to get another higher performing DPS class ready for Extremes trials. I don't do Savage or Ultimate stuff.
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Oof. Well...thanks for the information and pretty much solidifying my decision to gear something else out for that kind of content. No way can I compete for a spot in a raid team with performance like that.
Like you said though, was my first time into either EX so sub par performance is somewhat expected, but I just don't see the performance going up enough from that garbage to something competitive enough to warrant a spot on a raid team.
A lot of the issues arise because there simply isn't a language option for everyone. My options are Japanese, English, German and French. Europe has a lot more languages than just those four. Japanese isn't a European Language so I'm not sure why it was included to begin with, but I digress. Having every single European Language on the list would definately include everyone, but at the cost of super long matchmaking queues so it's simply too impractical.
I've also been put into matchmade groups with a partially premade group who are talking in Finnish, or Polish or some other language I don't have even a basic grasp of what's being said. Sometimes I am "That guy who doesn't understand what's being said". It's very alienating, to the point where I usually just turn the chat off. While it's never been the outright cause of repeated wipes and inability to clear content, it has caused a lot of issues.
Possiably not. It's an issue I run into often enough for it to be a problem, but not having ever played outside the EU (I do kind of live here, playing in another region would cause all kinds of problems), I can't say with any degree of certainty if it happens elsewhere too. I was simply putting forwards an idea that would line up with my own experiences.
While a fair point, I think the likelihood that someone in Europe doesn't speak/understand any French, German OR English at all are pretty slim.
Those four languages were chosen for the base client because they represent the largest populations and most widely known languages around the world, aside from Mandarin and maybe Cantonese but those would be specific to the Chinese client I'm sure.
Which is unfortunate. Language barriers do obviously cause issues, that's not really but as you say, it wasn't the outright cause for the inability to clear content, which was the main point of the discussion.I've also been put into matchmade groups with a partially premade group who are talking in Finnish, or Polish or some other language I don't have even a basic grasp of what's being said. Sometimes I am "That guy who doesn't understand what's being said". It's very alienating, to the point where I usually just turn the chat off. While it's never been the outright cause of repeated wipes and inability to clear content, it has caused a lot of issues.
Fair enough. I'm sure the issues you discuss would be pretty prevalent in a region so rife with different languages because of the number of countries involved. A similar situation just simply doesn't exist within the NA Data Centers. English is the hugely predominant language, and the vast majority of people who do speak another language also know enough English to make it not a problem in communication, though Exceptions do obviously exist. It would be like finding a Unicorn to end up in a PUG group on the NA data center with you being the only party member that spoke/understood English.Possiably not. It's an issue I run into often enough for it to be a problem, but not having ever played outside the EU (I do kind of live here, playing in another region would cause all kinds of problems), I can't say with any degree of certainty if it happens elsewhere too. I was simply putting forwards an idea that would line up with my own experiences.
That's the detail I was looking for.
And by that logic, yep, Dancer needs buffing, though I'm not really going to sweat it until the first patch. Square's addressed drastic gaps in the first patch after expansions before and I've felt they generally approach fine tuning with a scalpel rather than the chainsaw I was accustomed to in WoW. Perhaps sometimes even a little too conservatively, but better than the wild pendulum swing approach.
I'm sure the official forums have plenty of people detailing the gaps and while the parsers are a hush hush thing officially, Square Enix most certainly has access to such data when they do their first pass on adjusting the jobs.
Right, that's using it as an evaluation tool. When it becomes a fixation purely on personal output and absolutely nothing else is considered, it's irritating.To be fair, those parses provide hard evidence as to what the actual gap is and how much of a buff/ nerf is necessary. In most content it doesn't matter at all since it's not all that difficult. In the high end content with legit enrage timers and hard DPS checks though, performance is all that matters. In that kind of content, DNC is really not worth the raid spot currently, compared to other DPS classes because the 5% buff it gives doesn't make up for how much less it' DPS is from other classes.
I'll let you know how our group handles Extreme Trials. Our dancer ain't changin' at this point. They're getting BLM up next for the variety, but they'll be sticking with Dancer for a while.I love Dancer, it's the most fun I've had playing a job in a long time, but I can't argue with the numbers as they are. I'll still play it in dungeons and normal mode raids, but with current performance, I'll be aiming to get another higher performing DPS class ready for Extremes trials. I don't do Savage or Ultimate stuff.
I'm more concerned about our entire group having raid rust of having not done anything current in years. We've not had a full 8 and with only a few hours once a week, we were having laid back pony, then bird, farming nights. Just having fun doing the previous primals, treasure maps, and Chocobo racing.
I'm leveling everything else anyway at this point so it's not like I'm going out of my way to get away from Dancer. I'm sure there will be adjustments made pretty quickly. I'll likely go with Machinist because I'm having fun with that too so the gear I am gathering is applicable to Dancer anyway so whenever they're desirable again I'm all good.
Nothing to be ashamed of. Finish leveling your MCH. We need a physical ranged. Or stay DNC and get really good at it and pad our BLM. Shouldn't have any issues clearing.
Not like these content respecters:
- 0 Deaths
- Bottom SAM was spamming meditate in front of the boss? Not sure why
- SCH was holding down his physick key harder than anything I've ever seen. The second I dropped below 95% HP, spammed Physick 2-3x, 81% overhealing