[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Yoshingo]

I honestly find it hard to criticize ARR with what they had to work with at the time and limited amount of time they had to basically rebuild a game.

I mean I applaud them for making it as good as it was after how absolutely awful 1.0 was, and essentially saving Square Enix in the process, but there are many legitimate complaints about it.

...many of which have been long fixed, but yeah. We don't hear about the hold overs like the tediousness of the 2.0 endgame (Even though I liked it and didn't mind it, it is incredibly tedious) or other things like that, it's all weird generic complaining about problems that aren't actual problems.

Like listening to somebody you know hasn't read a book or seen a movie trying to critique it and just using generic exaggerated stereotypes they saw somebody else say online. Just an aura of the feeling, "You are talking out of your ass." That's how a lot of these recent complaints feel.

[Aruhen]

I personally wouldn't be against the removal of positionals. They were a thing back in ARR when classes were incredibly simplistic but I feel like they don't have a place in the current game.

The only class I could see it maybe being a thing for still is Monk since I do think they help with the feel of that class.

[Baconeggcheese]

They are?

I actually like the positionals.... I really see no reason to dislike them

I'm pretty much the polar opposite of you, I think they bring no value to the game and just add additional room for frustrating moments. I understand having some benefit to being behind the target like in WoW, but I think separating it between rear and flank is just bad design. There's never been a moment where it felt rewarding to have that distinction, but there's been plenty of opportunities where the boss won't stop spinning to cast spells, or needing to be moved, or facing / a mechanic prevents me from getting into the right position, or I'm chasing after enemies in a dungeon and apparently I have to literally be inside the enemy in order for it to register being in melee range while moving like if I was playing vanilla WoW on my old super shit computer on dial up.

What's funny is I'm playing monk which as I understand it deals with positionals more than any other job, and I think they're used as an excuse for the job not being designed better. There's nothing terribly interesting about having to move back and forth at predetermined moments while the game does its best to prevent you from being able to do so through no fault of your own.

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Its weird. I've noticed, as FF14 gets popular, people who seem weirdly hostile to all parts of it just loudly talking about how much they hate it.

Same people who will defend WoW against the same criticisms they levy against FF14 despite it being far better in those regards.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

People may just be criticizing aspects they don't like, its not like the WoW community hasn't been heavily critical of WoW since forever. It'd be pretty silly to pretend like fans of blizzard games don't criticize the things they don't* like constantly, especially on this forum which is pretty much dedicated to doing just that.

Oh I understand depth just fine, I think the classes have plenty of depth, we just differ in opinion of what depth is.

Well... I'm using the actual definition used in game design, not my own made up definition. There is the difference.

By your "definition" of depth no mmo ever has any depth because there's always only 1 proper way to play.

That's not at all what was said... but y'know.

Conversation seems hopeless, you've decided to make up your own definition for what a thing is and refuse to acknowledge it. Not really sure what to even say about that.

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The only class I could see it maybe being a thing for still is Monk since I do think they help with the feel of that class.

I've been playing monk the entire time I've been playing this game and I think they're used as an excuse for monk to continue to have dated and uninteresting designs. Positionals are a part of the many things that make monk have a lot of opportunities for feel bad moments while having almost no opportunities for feel good moments.

Think monk is thee job that would most stand to benefit from their removal as opposed to other jobs that barely use positionals in the first place.

[Onikaroshi]

I've been playing monk the entire time I've been playing this game and I think they're used as an excuse for monk to continue to have dated and uninteresting designs. Positionals are a part of the many things that make monk have a lot of opportunities for feel bad moments while having almost no opportunities for feel good moments.

Think monk is thee job that would most stand to benefit from their removal as opposed to other jobs that barely use positionals in the first place.

Monk without positionals just wouldn't be monk, you're asking for them to change the job into something it's not. The movement to hit your positionals is a HUGE part of the Job and makes it fun.

I'd like to see more positionals and make them even more important to hit honestly, they did the right thing with DRG and the fact if you don't hit that positional you don't get raiden thrust. I want it to the point that your dps is ass if you don't hit positionals, you have 2 stacks of true north for times you can't physically do it.

[Eapoe]

There's a whole lot more to it then that, knowing the fight for one, does it pay to refresh the dot? Is the boss going to go immune? It's not all about the buttons you press.

Wow has next to mine of that now, most classes have a whopping 2-4 rotationals and the only choice is do I hit this button now or later, hell there's almost no raid utility anymore even. Say what you will about things like TA but it does change rotations when you're trying to play around it

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Shit, the difference between a bad dnc player and a good one is pretty wide, and that class is "easy" (though not as straight forward as a lot of people play it)

Explains FF depth as “do I hit my button now or later,” goes on to say no depth in WoW because it’s “do I hit my button now or later.”

[Aruhen]

Positionals fit Monks the most from a thematic side. You're constantly moving and hitting "weak points". I don't think they should keep them on any class but I can understand if some Monk players would be against.

Also positionals are not bad game design. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is. It sucks in FFXIV because like Wreck (I think it was him) said the net code sucks ass and its a pain in the ass because of it. If the net code was like in WoW then I'd be all for keeping them.

Heck Monk was what I originally cleared all the original extreme ARR trials such as Titan on when they got released.

[Onikaroshi]

Explains FF depth as “do I hit my button now or later,” goes on to say no depth in WoW because it’s “do I hit my button now or later.”

There's a huge difference between "when do I hit my 1 button out of 4" and "when and in what order do I hit my 1 button out of 20 plus that all mean something"

[Baconeggcheese]

Positionals fit Monks the most from a thematic side. You're constantly moving and hitting "weak points". I don't think they should keep them on any class but I can understand if some Monk players would be against.

Also positionals are not bad game design. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is. It sucks in FFXIV because like Wreck (I think it was him) said the net code sucks ass and its a pain in the ass because of it. If the net code was like in WoW then I'd be all for keeping them.\

There's definitely people who like them for whatever reason, and considering monk has the most reliance on it it'd definitely be a large change that'd have some push back. Things like that are what make optional talents like in WoW a nice thing to have. So they can keep it in there without forcing it on everyone. Though I'd be willing to bet that if you had 2 optional talents that provided the exact same DPS the one with positionals required would barely see any use.

I just don't understand what benefit they provide the game. Like I said in the other post, they provide a lot of opportunities for feels bad moments but not any opportunities for feel good moments. Either the boss is standing perfectly still like a patchwerk encounter and nothing prevents you from doing it and its just normal, or somethings preventing you from doing it and you're being punished for playing correctly. Its just not a rewarding mechanic, which is why I think its a bad design.

[Onikaroshi]

Positionals fit Monks the most from a thematic side. You're constantly moving and hitting "weak points". I don't think they should keep them on any class but I can understand if some Monk players would be against.

Also positionals are not bad game design. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is. It sucks in FFXIV because like Wreck (I think it was him) said the net code sucks ass and its a pain in the ass because of it. If the net code was like in WoW then I'd be all for keeping them.

Heck Monk was what I originally cleared all the original extreme ARR trials such as Titan on when they got released.

I never really have issues hitting positionals, the netcode is nowhere near as bad as people play it off to be. 99.9% of the time if I miss a positional it's my fault or the tank randomly decided to spin the boss in a circle

[Katchii]

Monk without positionals just wouldn't be monk, you're asking for them to change the job into something it's not. The movement to hit your positionals is a HUGE part of the Job and makes it fun.

I'd like to see more positionals and make them even more important to hit honestly, they did the right thing with DRG and the fact if you don't hit that positional you don't get raiden thrust. I want it to the point that your dps is ass if you don't hit positionals, you have 2 stacks of true north for times you can't physically do it.

Disagree emphatically. With how heavily your performance can suffer because of mob movement that has absolutely nothing to do with you or your skill coupled with bad net coding causing mob vs player relative position to be wonky, positionals are some of the most aggravating things about melee jobs and the primary reason I will never main one.

Monk would still be monk without them, and so would Dragoon, Ninja and Samurai. Monk would likely be my main job if it didn’t have positionals.

Positionals aren’t “fun,” they’re arduous. And as Baconeggcheese said, they don’t provide any “feels good” moments but create a multitude of aggravating or “feels bad” ones.

[Aruhen]

People play the game in different ways. Some people enjoy that feeling of hitting the positionals. I personally don't but I have a friend who loves it. Its like the whole argument with combo prunes were you have the two camps of "combine them all or keep them as is". I'm of the camp just keep as is because I love the feel of hitting buttons in the right order.

I agree with you that it would be cool if we had a talent system were we could decide. Honestly that would be freaking amazing. The one thing I severely miss from WoW is talent trees.

I never really have issues hitting positionals, the netcode is nowhere near as bad as people play it off to be. 99.9% of the time if I miss a positional it's my fault or the tank randomly decided to spin the boss in a circle

I rarely have issues with them too and the few moments were you cant hit them you have buttons like True North which even has two charges now. It comes down to a know how the fight is but I WILL admit that bad tanks can make your life hard. I would never ever do content with random people on my MNK but I freaking love it in organized content.

[Onikaroshi]

Disagree emphatically. With how heavily your performance can suffer because of mob movement that has absolutely nothing to do with you or your skill coupled with bad net coding causing mob vs player relative position to be wonky, positionals are some of the most aggravating things about melee jobs and the primary reason I will never main one.

Monk would still be monk without them, and so would Dragoon, Ninja and Samurai. Monk would likely be my main job if it didn’t have positionals.

Positionals aren’t “fun,” they’re arduous. And as Baconeggcheese said, they don’t provide any “feels good” moments but create a multitude of aggravating or “feels bad” ones.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be changed to fit into a mold of what you want it to be. If you don't like positionals don't play classes with them, pure and simple. Don't, however, take things from those who enjoy them.

Should all melee have positionals? Maybe not, Sam could probably do without the one it has, but monk is made to move around the boss

[threads]

Positionals fit Monks the most from a thematic side. You're constantly moving and hitting "weak points". I don't think they should keep them on any class but I can understand if some Monk players would be against.

Also positionals are not bad game design. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is. It sucks in FFXIV because like Wreck (I think it was him) said the net code sucks ass and its a pain in the ass because of it. If the net code was like in WoW then I'd be all for keeping them.

Heck Monk was what I originally cleared all the original extreme ARR trials such as Titan on when they got released.

its ironic because last patch made positionals a joke for monk. 30 sec true north with riddle of earth plus 2 stacks of actual true north.

[Katchii]

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be changed to fit into a mold of what you want it to be. If you don't like positionals don't play classes with them, pure and simple. Don't, however, take things from those who enjoy them.

Should all melee have positionals? Maybe not, Sam could probably do without the one it has, but monk is made to move around the boss

Where in my post did I ever say they needed to be/ should be removed?

[Onikaroshi]

Where in my post did I ever say they needed to be/ should be removed?

My apology for implying that you wanted to remove them, it's a bunch of other people in the thread that want to.

Ever since blizzard basically killed overwatch for me I've been extremely annoyed at people wanting to remove things from games that I enjoy, didn't mean to say you wanted it though.

[Baconeggcheese]

Its like the whole argument with combo prunes were you have the two camps of "combine them all or keep them as is". I'm of the camp just keep as is because I love the feel of hitting buttons in the right order.

Have you ever played guildwars 2? Because the combo system is basically the same thing as the rotating buttons from that game just spread out to create bloat. like I have 9 buttons on monk for different combos that could just as easily be 3 rotating buttons without any real impact on gameplay.

Its one of the many "shallow complexity" style designs in this game though, and for some reason people seem to like that. It makes them feel good to be able to say there's 10 buttons in a rotation that could just as easily be 4 buttons with no impact on gameplay. I'm of the mind that if I'm going to have say 10 buttons that I'd rather them be 10 meaningful buttons as opposed to effectively 4-5 buttons spread out across 10 keybinds purely for the sake of it.

I don't mind the combos as much at the end of the day though, its just funny seeing people who complain about WoW's designs being simplistic talk up what's effectively just as simplistic of a design just because visually there's more buttons to press.

*shrug*

its ironic because last patch made positionals a joke for monk. 30 sec true north with riddle of earth plus 2 stacks of actual true north.

Yeah that seems to be their preferred method of dealing with things people don't like. Instead of just removing things that feel bad, they give you buttons that have the same end result for the sake of it. I'd rather have buttons to press that feel good instead of buttons to press to remove the bad feeling stuff, but that's me. I don't think relief is the emotion they should be designing around.

[Onikaroshi]

Have you ever played guildwars 2? Because the combo system is basically the same thing as the rotating buttons from that game just spread out to create bloat. like I have 9 buttons on monk for different combos that could just as easily be 3 rotating buttons without any real impact on gameplay.

Its one of the many "shallow complexity" style designs in this game though, and for some reason people seem to like that. It makes them feel good to be able to say there's 10 buttons in a rotation that could just as easily be 4 buttons with no impact on gameplay. I'm of the mind that if I'm going to have say 10 buttons that I'd rather them be 10 meaningful buttons as opposed to effectively 4-5 buttons spread out across 10 keybinds purely for the sake of it.

I don't mind the combos as much at the end of the day though, its just funny seeing people who complain about WoW's designs being simplistic talk up what's effectively just as simplistic of a design just because visually there's more buttons to press.

*shrug*

See, and I don't get that train of thought at all.

Let's say you have a job with 2 combos 1-2-3 and 1-A2-A3 where the second set applies a buff/debuff that you need to apply after 2 rounds of the first combo. So your rotation minus oGCDs becomes 1-A2-A3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-A2-A3 repeat and then obviously build off from there with oGCDs or whatever.

You would rather have that buff/debuff in the 1-2-3 combo making your rotation effectively 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 ad nauseum? I mean alone the top combo isn't SUPER interesting but it's a hell of a lot more interesting then hitting the same 3 buttons in order for a 15 minute fight... It's like when you're downscaled as a tank and only 1 part of your 2 part aoe combo, it's only one extra button but it makes it feel a LOT less dull then spamming that one button forever. 1-2-3 rotation is basically a wow class nowadays and I HATE it.

[Baconeggcheese]

@Onikaroshi You're focused on the order and number of buttons being pressed as opposed to what the buttons are actually doing.

For instance on monk you have a 3 button aoe combo, 3 buttons for raw damage, and 3 buttons for buffs / debuffs. All of those buttons have a "form" associated with them, where you can't press them without being in said form. Except for the beginning of combos, but you would never press a button from the previous form in the chain.

This means that you could easily have 3 buttons that rotate based on form, and press whichever one is appropriate at the given time and you would have the literal same game play and choices to make as you do right now, and you just reduced bloat by 2/3 on said buttons. Literally nothing changed at all game play wise, but you reduced bloat.

Hence the design is very simple, its just spread out across many buttons purely for the sake of it.

[Onikaroshi]

@Onikaroshi You're focused on the order and number of buttons being pressed as opposed to what the buttons are actually doing.

For instance on monk you have a 3 button aoe combo, 3 buttons for raw damage, and 3 buttons for buffs / debuffs. All of those buttons have a "form" associated with them, where you can't press them without being in said form. Except for the beginning of combos, but you would never press a button from the previous form in the chain.

This means that you could easily have 3 buttons that rotate based on form, and press whichever one is appropriate at the given time and you would have the literal same game play and choices to make as you do right now, and you just reduced bloat by 2/3 on said buttons. Literally nothing changed at all game play wise, but you reduced bloat.

Hence the design is very simple, its just spread out across many buttons purely for the sake of it.

Because 1-2-3 to me is not fun, I WANT 1-A2-A3-1-2-3, I WANT the 2 combos to be separate. I don't want that crappy WoW spec rotation garbage to come over here.

I'm sitting here on mch right now and I love every single button on this thing. If they took these buttons away to make it simpler and combined things I'd hate it.

Just like that with MNK, those buttons DO have a reason, the ones that provide buffs/debuffs don't have as high of potency for the initial hit so you don't want to sit there and spam them. I also like having to keep up buffs and debuffs.

[Aruhen]

You're missing the point completely I feel like. Some people ENJOY the feel of pressing the buttons in the right order. Is it complex? HELL no and no one is saying it is. But do we like it? Heck yes.

Literally this entire conversion is two train of thoughts clashing against each other. Both work and are fine and I'd even admit that most people would probably enjoy the system some of you are proposing but some of us started playing this game because of the way it is not the way it might be. If you don't like the game the way it is then I question why someone would play it. I don't go to the Path of Exile forums complaining that the skill tree is too much for me.