1. #46601
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I think it has a lot of depth, you just refuse to see it that way.

    Depth isn't just the buttons you press but pressing them in the situation the game puts you into.
    That's like saying I'm refusing to see the apple as an orange.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  2. #46602
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Shit, the difference between a bad dnc player and a good one is pretty wide, and that class is "easy" (though not as straight forward as a lot of people play it)
    Does the DNC get anything interesting between 76 and 80?
    Because at 76 the class is positively braindead "mash that what glows and save as many fan dances for the technical step window as possible".

  3. #46603
    High Overlord Graeham II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Does the DNC get anything interesting between 76 and 80?
    Because at 76 the class is positively braindead "mash that what glows and save as many fan dances for the technical step window as possible".
    DNC is pretty underwhelming once the novelty wears off. It doesn't change much at all after you unlock both standard and technical step and the level 80 ability is niche enough that you don't necessarily use it much at all. At least compared to what other jobs get. I can only speak for RDM, NIN and DRK but they each have a level 80 ability that is actively part of every major fight.

  4. #46604
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Does the DNC get anything interesting between 76 and 80?
    Because at 76 the class is positively braindead "mash that what glows and save as many fan dances for the technical step window as possible".
    After saber dance you're basically done, but if you're pressing buttons as they light up that's actually playing it wrong (but it is the fun way to play) you're supposed to go into technical step/devilment combo with 3 fourfold and about 80 espirit for your "burst window". It basically turns the majority of you gameplay into 1-2 spamming

  5. #46605
    Quote Originally Posted by Isilarya View Post
    My FCs first static attempt at it is Saturday, my body is so ready.
    Best of luck!

    I actually got E2S down in a pug. That 71k rDPS check is pretty freaking intense. We literally eeked by. Got like an 89th percentile though. Won the oil for accessories and the boots. Didn't get the tomestone It's a super easy fight IMO, but it's tuned super tight.

    Had a lot of trap parties while trying to learn the last phase and we consistently didn't make it below 75%. I really hate this community sometimes. Just because you saw Quietus once while on the floor being carried and enraging at 42% doesn't mean you're ready for a clear party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    Dragoon:
    -Positionals
    -Animation-locks
    -Five-part weapon combos
    -Ogcd's and strict timers
    -Very impactful cd's
    I will only comment on DRG, since I know very little about BRD. None of these things qualify as deep, ESPECIALLY not "impactful" CDs.

    • Battle Litany is a flat buff that alters gameplay in no way shape or form. It is always used in burst windows. Not interesting or impactful. It's binary.
    • Life Surge is used at the same time, on the same ability, every single time. Not interesting or impactful. It's binary.
    • Blood of the Dragon is fire and forget now.
    • Dragon Sight is the only thing that genuinely offers a player any agency or semblance of depth, and even then it's flimsy at best, and clunky as fuck to use and requires third party addons to use optimally.

    I love FF14 and I enjoy playing DRG, but animation locks, positionals, strict timers and boring one note oGCDs and cooldowns are not the highlight of the job.

    Positional's for example were incredibly clunky in WoW and got removed for a reason, the one's in FF aren't too much different design wise but feel good to use because the entire game and job was designed with them in mind, I wouldn't want them to ever return in WoW but I don't want them to get removed from FF.
    They were and I agree that they were removed with good reason. However you're out of your mind if you think that FF14's positionals are well designed. They're by and far complained about across all forms of media for being clunky and annoying. I'd be ok with positionals if the netcode wasn't ass, but unfortunately it is.

    Though I disagree hard about the tank ability bloat, I think it is at a perfect number at the moment because all the CD's are more or less unique, clearcut, and impactful. I very much think FF's tank design is better because it isn't just playing a mitigation mini-game and more-so fight knowledge which is how it should be in my opinion. I've had way more fun playing my DRK than I ever did playing my BRM though I wish FF had more 4-man content like WoW does, my aoe abilities never get used outside of expert roulettes.
    More or less unique? Rampart and Sentinel are generally identical across tanks. Sure WAR's reflects damage, but it's negligible. The only difference is in their invulns (even though they're all used identically) and their on demand (Sheltron, TBN). Mind you that I actually think some homogenization is ok and even a good decision sometimes.

    I won't comment on which design I think is better because I don't tank in WoW because Ret exists. FF14 tank design isn't bad, but I long every single tier for more to do and it just isn't there. I was hoping interrupts would actually matter and they don't. They're just more binary if/then's used once a fight if that at all. Tank swaps are generally binary and boring. Very rarely do you have to do a "fun" tank swap to handle a mechanic, it's just to not die from a auto due to a debuff.

    PLD got a lot of fat cut which was desperately needed, but it still has some abilities that are nearly useless in addition to some of the most bland oGCDs in the game and a terribly boring cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Those 3 abilities for aoe combo and 30-60s cd abilities are far more important to me then CC or other flavor abilities so... /shrug, i wan my fights to be fun to play not some random niche thing.

    Every one of those buttons serves a purpose though, none of the buttons are just there.
    That's only because the FF14 encounter design is so shallow. If CC actually mattered or was useful on bosses/trash it would matter more and make those flavor/niche things more fun to have and use.

    Some buttons serve some REALLY boring shallow purposes though.

    I love combos, it's something that adds depth, screw up a combo and you lose DPS or a proc, or your dot falls off. Don't play around movement as a paladin and you lose Goring blade. Don't use your procs properly as a RDM and your dps suffers immensely.
    That's not what depth is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruhen View Post
    Also I really hope they don't take a page from current WoW class design. Its some of the worst its ever been outside of a few specs. Its the number one complaint in WoW right now. No matter how fun the content is if your character isn't fun to play then its all pointless. Warlock is what I played and that class is mindlessly boring now. Heck the thing I did like about BFA Warlock was the drain life artifact trait but they go ahead and nerf it cuz pvp. I don't even understand how anyone who still plays a Warlock can stand playing WoW at the moment.
    As a Ret, I'm not particularly happy with BfA design, BUT where BfA has redeemed itself is in the current 8.2 systems. I actually REALLY enjoy the hunting and powering up aspect of the necklace. Not only that, but the powers are really interesting, varied, and generally mostly useful. Especially combined with some azerite traits/trinkets.

    Legion Ret wasn't my favorite, but it was easily top 3, maybe 2nd. WoD Ret was the pinnacle of Ret IMO. WoD did a lot wrong, but class design wasn't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    That's actually the opposite of depth, its pretty much as shallow as it can possible get. There's absolutely no agency in what you just described, you either do exactly what you're supposed to do or you screw up and there's no thought in the matter.
    Bingo LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    No, that is depth, you have to plan around being able to finish your combo, you have to plan around your dots or buffs falling off. If you get halfway into a combo and WHOOPS disembowel fell off, you just fucked up.
    That's not depth...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Depth is "the number of emergent experientially different possibilities or meaningful choices that come out of one ruleset".

    Your choices with these combo systems is to press the next button in the combo. There is no depth there at all, it is the shallowest of choices. This games class design is completely devoid of any depth, everything is fairly straightforward and completely lacks agency.
    Bingo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I think it has a lot of depth, you just refuse to see it that way.

    Depth isn't just the buttons you press but pressing them in the situation the game puts you into.
    You're entitled to believe what you want, but you're objectively incorrect here based on the actual definition of the term "depth". JObs aren't deep. We've explained that through the nose, encounter design can have some deep elements, but overall it's shallow and binary, especially combined with the current job design.

  6. #46606
    I never thought of FFXIV jobs as being super deep. What I've always loved was going into a new fight and learning it and trying to optimize my DPS as much as I could. I'd also take current FFXIV class design over anything that WoW has done since Wrath which was my personal favourite. I've always loved the "dance" of rotations more than the resource/proc based design of modern WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    As a Ret, I'm not particularly happy with BfA design, BUT where BfA has redeemed itself is in the current 8.2 systems. I actually REALLY enjoy the hunting and powering up aspect of the necklace. Not only that, but the powers are really interesting, varied, and generally mostly useful. Especially combined with some azerite traits/trinkets.

    Legion Ret wasn't my favorite, but it was easily top 3, maybe 2nd. WoD Ret was the pinnacle of Ret IMO. WoD did a lot wrong, but class design wasn't it.
    WoD had nice class design. I don't really remember if it was optimal at all since I played a total of three months in WoD so I didn't care about the proper way but I remember seal dancing on Paladin being so pleasing. I loved that stuff and when it went away I was so sad. It was really stong as a Protadin though I believe were you could just never die in Mythic dungeons from the self healing.

    WoD did ruin Windwalker Monks though sadly. All in the name of "accessibility" by making it a slower paced spec and removing a lot of the tiny intricacies. Rip Mists WW Monk were you could cheese so many mechanics with Touch of Karma. I'll forever hate it just for that.

    I really should give BFA another try though. I really enjoyed it in the first few weeks on my BrM Monk and Protadin but fell out of love with it moment Uldir and M+ came out. I just really really hate the way gearing is these days among some other things. I remember farming my ass off in M+ and clearing Uldir the first two weeks getting a total of two items (both from the cache) that weren't even really upgrades. I ended up being were I couldn't even get into a group because of the item levels people wanted for Uldir after two weeks. So I just stopped playing because I felt dejected.

  7. #46607
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Best of luck!

    I actually got E2S down in a pug. That 71k rDPS check is pretty freaking intense. We literally eeked by. Got like an 89th percentile though. Won the oil for accessories and the boots. Didn't get the tomestone It's a super easy fight IMO, but it's tuned super tight.

    Had a lot of trap parties while trying to learn the last phase and we consistently didn't make it below 75%. I really hate this community sometimes. Just because you saw Quietus once while on the floor being carried and enraging at 42% doesn't mean you're ready for a clear party.



    I will only comment on DRG, since I know very little about BRD. None of these things qualify as deep, ESPECIALLY not "impactful" CDs.

    • Battle Litany is a flat buff that alters gameplay in no way shape or form. It is always used in burst windows. Not interesting or impactful. It's binary.
    • Life Surge is used at the same time, on the same ability, every single time. Not interesting or impactful. It's binary.
    • Blood of the Dragon is fire and forget now.
    • Dragon Sight is the only thing that genuinely offers a player any agency or semblance of depth, and even then it's flimsy at best, and clunky as fuck to use and requires third party addons to use optimally.

    I love FF14 and I enjoy playing DRG, but animation locks, positionals, strict timers and boring one note oGCDs and cooldowns are not the highlight of the job.



    They were and I agree that they were removed with good reason. However you're out of your mind if you think that FF14's positionals are well designed. They're by and far complained about across all forms of media for being clunky and annoying. I'd be ok with positionals if the netcode wasn't ass, but unfortunately it is.



    More or less unique? Rampart and Sentinel are generally identical across tanks. Sure WAR's reflects damage, but it's negligible. The only difference is in their invulns (even though they're all used identically) and their on demand (Sheltron, TBN). Mind you that I actually think some homogenization is ok and even a good decision sometimes.

    I won't comment on which design I think is better because I don't tank in WoW because Ret exists. FF14 tank design isn't bad, but I long every single tier for more to do and it just isn't there. I was hoping interrupts would actually matter and they don't. They're just more binary if/then's used once a fight if that at all. Tank swaps are generally binary and boring. Very rarely do you have to do a "fun" tank swap to handle a mechanic, it's just to not die from a auto due to a debuff.

    PLD got a lot of fat cut which was desperately needed, but it still has some abilities that are nearly useless in addition to some of the most bland oGCDs in the game and a terribly boring cooldown.



    That's only because the FF14 encounter design is so shallow. If CC actually mattered or was useful on bosses/trash it would matter more and make those flavor/niche things more fun to have and use.

    Some buttons serve some REALLY boring shallow purposes though.



    That's not what depth is...



    As a Ret, I'm not particularly happy with BfA design, BUT where BfA has redeemed itself is in the current 8.2 systems. I actually REALLY enjoy the hunting and powering up aspect of the necklace. Not only that, but the powers are really interesting, varied, and generally mostly useful. Especially combined with some azerite traits/trinkets.

    Legion Ret wasn't my favorite, but it was easily top 3, maybe 2nd. WoD Ret was the pinnacle of Ret IMO. WoD did a lot wrong, but class design wasn't it.



    Bingo LOL.



    That's not depth...



    Bingo.



    You're entitled to believe what you want, but you're objectively incorrect here based on the actual definition of the term "depth". JObs aren't deep. We've explained that through the nose, encounter design can have some deep elements, but overall it's shallow and binary, especially combined with the current job design.

    Why do you even play the game if you despise it so much you call encounter design "binary and shallow" when its 10000000000000000000000000x better then wow ever was.

    It's like you just hang around here to shit on it.

  8. #46608
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    After saber dance you're basically done, but if you're pressing buttons as they light up that's actually playing it wrong (but it is the fun way to play) you're supposed to go into technical step/devilment combo with 3 fourfold and about 80 espirit for your "burst window". It basically turns the majority of you gameplay into 1-2 spamming
    As I said: save as many fan dances possible for technical step, the rest is basically facerolling as they come.

    Heh I finally managed to get suspended in the official forums.

  9. #46609
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    As I said: save as many fan dances possible for technical step, the rest is basically facerolling as they come.

    Heh I finally managed to get suspended in the official forums.
    Man, I figured they just handed those out the first time you posted!

  10. #46610
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Man, I figured they just handed those out the first time you posted!
    I'm surprised myself that it took so long because I tend to speak my mind freely.
    Oh well, since they informed me that a ban of the actual game account is possible if sth. should happen in the forums again, I won't post there ever again.

    Frankly put: I don't see much use in a forum where you can get banned by a simple analysis of mathematical data in order to disprove a BS claim of another player. Gotta protect them baddies at all costs, mates!

  11. #46611
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I'm surprised myself that it took so long because I tend to speak my mind freely.
    Oh well, since they informed me that a ban of the actual game account is possible if sth. should happen in the forums again, I won't post there ever again.

    Frankly put: I don't see much use in a forum where you can get banned by a simple analysis of mathematical data in order to disprove a BS claim of another player. Gotta protect them baddies at all costs, mates!
    The NA forum teams are pretty bad from what I've heard. I never post there anyway and most of the information you run across on the official forums is useless.

  12. #46612
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Why do you even play the game if you despise it so much you call encounter design "binary and shallow" when its 10000000000000000000000000x better then wow ever was.

    It's like you just hang around here to shit on it.
    Ad hominem then, instead of just acknowledging that you misunderstood what depth in game design is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I'm surprised myself that it took so long because I tend to speak my mind freely.
    Oh well, since they informed me that a ban of the actual game account is possible if sth. should happen in the forums again, I won't post there ever again.

    Frankly put: I don't see much use in a forum where you can get banned by a simple analysis of mathematical data in order to disprove a BS claim of another player. Gotta protect them baddies at all costs, mates!
    They do what now? I haven't used the official forums because those tend to be awful but that's pretty funny.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  13. #46613
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Ad hominem then, instead of just acknowledging that you misunderstood what depth in game design is.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They do what now? I haven't used the official forums because those tend to be awful but that's pretty funny.
    Xenophobia and refusal to accept any criticisms of the game are thorns in FFXIV's side.

  14. #46614
    They were and I agree that they were removed with good reason. However you're out of your mind if you think that FF14's positionals are well designed. They're by and far complained about across all forms of media for being clunky and annoying. I'd be ok with positionals if the netcode wasn't ass, but unfortunately it is.
    They are?

    I actually like the positionals.... I really see no reason to dislike them, they are rewarding and you can and have to plan movement ahead of time (which of course is at some point a completely automatic process) and if you miss them sometimes, it's not the end of the world either.
    I don't see how the netcode is an issue there either, unless the tank moves the boss around a lot? Or something?
    You do can do minimalistic sidesteps to get the positionals done. I see absolutely no clunkyness in them, nor are they in any way whatsoever annoying.
    I'd rather have them than not and I really, really doubt that the majority (or even a big chunk of the playerbase) would say the opposite.


    (in fact, I my opinion the positionals are the best addition to combat that the game has)
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-08-03 at 10:18 PM.

  15. #46615
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Ad hominem then, instead of just acknowledging that you misunderstood what depth in game design is.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They do what now? I haven't used the official forums because those tend to be awful but that's pretty funny.
    Oh I understand depth just fine, I think the classes have plenty of depth, we just differ in opinion of what depth is. By your "definition" of depth no mmo ever has any depth because there's always only 1 proper way to play.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    They are?

    I actually like the positionals.... I really see no reason to dislike them, they are rewarding and you can and have to plan movement ahead of time (which of course is at some point a completely automatic process) and if you miss them sometimes, it's not the end of the world either.
    I don't see how the netcode is an issue there either, unless the tank moves the boss around a lot? Or something?
    You do can do minimalistic sidesteps to get the positionals done. I see absolutely no clunkyness in them, nor are they in any way whatsoever annoying.
    I'd rather have them than not and I really, really doubt that the majority (or even a big chunk of the playerbase) would say the opposite.


    (in fact, I my opinion the positionals are the best addition to combat that the game has)
    Positionals are great honestly, rewards you for playing right instead of just mindless mashing buttons. Monk feels like a monk with all the moving around the boss.
    Last edited by Onikaroshi; 2019-08-03 at 10:24 PM.

  16. #46616
    Its weird. I've noticed, as FF14 gets popular, people who seem weirdly hostile to all parts of it just loudly talking about how much they hate it.

    Same people who will defend WoW against the same criticisms they levy against FF14 despite it being far better in those regards.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmm

  17. #46617
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshingo View Post
    Its weird. I've noticed, as FF14 gets popular, people who seem weirdly hostile to all parts of it just loudly talking about how much they hate it.

    Same people who will defend WoW against the same criticisms they levy against FF14 despite it being far better in those regards.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmm
    FFXIV has always had a disproportional amount of hate for some reason, guess just because it's a popular Asian mmo and therefore for "weebs". ESO doesn't get as much random hate from people honestly.

    There's definitely some things FF could do better (WoW's transmog system is heads and tails better then FF's, but it took time to get WoW's to where it is), but it doesn't deserve the flat out hate it gets from some people.
    Last edited by Onikaroshi; 2019-08-03 at 10:42 PM.

  18. #46618
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    FFXIV has always had a disproportional amount of hate for some reason, guess just because it's a popular Asian mmo and therefore for "weebs". ESO doesn't get as much random hate from people honestly.
    I think its 100% related to WoW stumbling with BfA and FF14 doing amazingly well with Shadowbringers. I think people are just looking for something to shit on because they still haven't realized not to attach their personal identity to a corporate product. Because once that product begins declining, this fervent almost instinctual need to incessantly defend it against all criticisms happens because it feels like their very selves are being attacked.

    There are plenty of things to criticize FF14 over, especially ARR, but we almost never hear about them because the people who are disingenuously attacking it because its WoW's biggest competitor atm don't realize to hide their disingenuity behind legitimate criticisms for some reason. Its always whining about how the story isn't as good as people say or "Classes aren't deep!" while they push 3 buttons on many specs in WoW doing the storyline that is essentially a paint-by-numbers child's project.

  19. #46619
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshingo View Post
    I think its 100% related to WoW stumbling with BfA and FF14 doing amazingly well with Shadowbringers. I think people are just looking for something to shit on because they still haven't realized not to attach their personal identity to a corporate product. Because once that product begins declining, this fervent almost instinctual need to incessantly defend it against all criticisms happens because it feels like their very selves are being attacked.

    There are plenty of things to criticize FF14 over, especially ARR, but we almost never hear about them because the people who are disingenuously attacking it because its WoW's biggest competitor atm don't realize to hide their disingenuity behind legitimate criticisms for some reason. Its always whining about how the story isn't as good as people say or "Classes aren't deep!" while they push 3 buttons on many specs in WoW doing the storyline that is essentially a paint-by-numbers child's project.
    I honestly find it hard to criticize ARR with what they had to work with at the time and limited amount of time they had to basically rebuild a game.

  20. #46620
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I honestly find it hard to criticize ARR with what they had to work with at the time and limited amount of time they had to basically rebuild a game.
    I mean I applaud them for making it as good as it was after how absolutely awful 1.0 was, and essentially saving Square Enix in the process, but there are many legitimate complaints about it.

    ...many of which have been long fixed, but yeah. We don't hear about the hold overs like the tediousness of the 2.0 endgame (Even though I liked it and didn't mind it, it is incredibly tedious) or other things like that, it's all weird generic complaining about problems that aren't actual problems.

    Like listening to somebody you know hasn't read a book or seen a movie trying to critique it and just using generic exaggerated stereotypes they saw somebody else say online. Just an aura of the feeling, "You are talking out of your ass." That's how a lot of these recent complaints feel.
    Last edited by Yoshingo; 2019-08-03 at 10:51 PM.

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