1. #46821
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,548
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Be that asshole that offloads it to someone else!
    But I am the one it is offloaded to.
    Playstyle wise it suits me just fine, spamming 1 button for 3hrs in a raid would make me fall asleep but this community is soooo obsessed with healers DPS that it's bordering the ridiculous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    That's the unexpected fun part of being a healer in savage raiding. If someone screws up, you don't have to heal them because they die.
    And then I have to rez him and pump his HP back up. <_<

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham II View Post
    As I see it, so long as everybody's trying their best I'm content.
    And then the boss just says: "Nope, try again." Due to rather strict enrage timers.
    If the 2nd boss really requires 71K sustained, It'll be a long while till my group manages that.

    For me personally, the lags are currently the most frustrating factor. It just feels so bad when you fail b/c suddenly your client doesn't get any data.

  2. #46822
    High Overlord Graeham II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Dungeon spam is considerably faster way to level. FATEs can be ass to solo as a DPS due to lack of self-healing (and zones are empty, so grouping is out of question), side quests give very little experience and are finite, Beast Tribe dailies give pretty low XP too. Hunts? I have no idea how you are going to solo group bosses.
    You can actually solo the vast majority of FATE's, actually. The 'boss' ones are a no go, though there's a chance people will show up to help if you request aid in /shout. There's also the chocobo companion who can fight alongside you to provide extra damage and throw the occasional heal your way. Hunts can be soloed - I was specifically referring to the daily/weekly hunts available from the boards in capital cities. They grant experience and seals upon completion.

    Ultimately there's many different ways to break up the monotony of the 'grind'. Yet FFXIV is pretty forgiving in that regard in that it doesn't actually take that long to level all things considered - especially once you've completed the MSQ's and unlocked everything.

    Yes, there's the 'efficient' way to do it which is running the same dungeon over and over again but as mentioned nobody has anybody but themselves to blame if they get bored after ignoring ways to shake things up.

  3. #46823
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham II View Post
    You can actually solo the vast majority of FATE's, actually.
    At least Stormblood ones are unlikely to bo soloed as a melee, there are like two mobs and when you kill one, next one respawns immediately and most probably attacks you. Even if you'll try to drop combat eventually, there's still a timer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham II View Post
    Hunts can be soloed - I was specifically referring to the daily/weekly hunts available from the boards in capital cities. They grant experience and seals upon completion.
    The ones I've seen and participated in were all group bosses.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham II View Post
    Yet FFXIV is pretty forgiving in that regard in that it doesn't actually take that long to level all things considered - especially once you've completed the MSQ's and unlocked everything.
    Leveling in FFXIV takes a shit ton of time even with double XP from having one job on level cap and rested bonus, so I disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  4. #46824
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Does FF14 not have a WoWprogress equivalent? Lack of those kinds of resources was always my problem whenever I looked at another mmo back when I cared about raiding.
    nope it doesn't. Kinda why it's so hard for me to find good groups. I have nothing to base off to know if a group is decent or not other than what they tell me. Hint: they always talk themselves up, it's never realistic.

    I guess I could go off fflogs, but....I haven't seen a single group that has good parses other than the top groups that raid alot of hours.

  5. #46825
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,548
    Quote Originally Posted by dk3790 View Post
    I guess I could go off fflogs, but....I haven't seen a single group that has good parses other than the top groups that raid alot of hours.
    That's typically what it takes to kill bosses and clear content in a timely manner.
    Top groups also push a ton of tries in order to kill stuff, they just do more/week than the midcore groups.

    For the individual player, the savage bosses aren't all that difficult to do w/o too many errors.
    It's getting 8 people do do it w/o (or very few) mistakes that's the time eater.
    If wiping 100x to a savage boss turns you off: raiding isn't for you and a "top group" won't really fix that.

  6. #46826
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Leveling in FFXIV takes a shit ton of time even with double XP from having one job on level cap and rested bonus, so I disagree.
    Define "shit-ton"

    because leveling an alt-job in 3 days (~6h+/day to max is not really that long imho.
    If you do it with roulettes over the course of a week or so, it's even less.

    I leveled my second DPS Job from 70-80 in 1 or 2 days on a weekend (slightly rested - did it more or less directly after I hit 80 with my first character).
    I leveled my third DPS job from 20(ish)-56 in less than a day, while I was tabbing in and out of the game (click one button -> tab out -> tab in 2-3 minutes later -> move -> click one button) via Squadron-Dungeon running.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-08-11 at 03:07 PM.

  7. #46827
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    And then I have to rez him and pump his HP back up. <_<
    That's true, sadly.

    But with any luck, other players are learning and dying less. If not then that's the root of the problem right there, because death is a huge loss to the party's overall damage and will make meeting enrages on the tighter fights like e2s way harder. I always try to play as if I'm expecting an ideal run and just adapt if I have to.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  8. #46828
    Scarab Lord gaymer77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Central California
    Posts
    4,306
    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    Havnt played FFXIV since the first portion of Stormblood.

    Has alt class leveling improved or is it still the insane boring grind?
    If you have command missions unlocked for your squadron I'd suggest doing those in combination with your hunting log for that job. When I run command missions with my squadron I get anywhere from 2 to 4 levels per run. Only once did I only get 1 level out of it.

  9. #46829
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,548
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    But with any luck, other players are learning and dying less. If not then that's the root of the problem right there
    Sure, though to be frank: I don't think my group can push 71K DPS even if nobody dies.
    We'll see.

  10. #46830
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    At least Stormblood ones are unlikely to bo soloed as a melee, there are like two mobs and when you kill one, next one respawns immediately and most probably attacks you. Even if you'll try to drop combat eventually, there's still a timer.


    The ones I've seen and participated in were all group bosses.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Leveling in FFXIV takes a shit ton of time even with double XP from having one job on level cap and rested bonus, so I disagree.
    But are you ever actually soloing fates? I mean we all have a Chocobo companion, and if you aren't using your chocobo... why not? I set mine to heal mode when I am on a melee and can solo all the non-uberboss fates without issue or risk of death.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2019-08-11 at 07:56 PM.

  11. #46831
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    While maybe some jobs should have other limiting factors, I HATE non gcd locked classes. I want to always be able to hit something not wait for energy to regen like a wow rogue. I hate just standing there honestly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm of a similar mindset, but I don't hate non GCD locked classes. I just hate doing nothing for extended periods of time. Waiting for something so I can actually DO something feels weird to me.

    I don't mind waiting 1-2 seconds every now and then (like once every 30 seconds type of thing), but if the class has those constantly (every 10-15 seconds or less) I just can't enjoy playing it. Too much "down" time.
    This is the kind of mindset I don't understand. Waiting 1-2 seconds for something? What about Limit Breaks, they're 3 seconds to cast in addition to their long animations. You're not "doing nothing" during that time, you're still engaged in combat. There are ways to have time where the player isn't actively hitting buttons at every second without losing their interest.

    Having small windows of downtime doesn't need to break up the flow of the game. First person Shooters do it all the time - Reloading your weapon in cover, that's a small break from the combat. That brief window gives you time to consider your next move. Are you going to try going around the side to flank or maybe now would be a good time to use a grenade? Perhaps you're just going to stick your head back out and carry on shooting. Even Doom, a game which is all about fast paced kinetic combat, gave players a couple of seconds breathing room with it's Glory Kills.

    Turn based games are another great example. Just because it's not your turn to take action doesn't mean you're not still engaged in playing the game. You're considering your next move, what moves your opponents are going to make and so on.

    All FF14 really has instead are transitions between phases, which are technically breaks but ones which disengage you from combat entirely. You pretty much just group up and wait for it to be over. I'd consider that a bad way to break up combat, where as my above example about reloading I'd consider a good way to break up combat. One is dictated by encounter design and leaves the player little to do but wait, while the other is an opportunity to think about what other options you have and when/if that break is taken is left entitrely at the discression of the player.

    I've always considered MMO's to be low effort games by and large. Games that ask very little of me but my time. I've been ill this week and haven't really been up to playing anything too taxing so I figured I'd take it easy and play Summoner. Quite honestly, I'd have been better off playing Guilty Gear. It's less effort for me than DPSing FF14, and that game plays like this;



    (Also Hi @Dugna, my forum Avatar is fighting yours! )

    FF14 has slowly accumilated more and more oGCDs so what starts off being a reasonably slow paced combat eventually ends up being a challenge based heavilly on it's execution, much like hardcore fighters such as Guilty Gear. Is that an ideal comparison? No, perhaps not. But FF14 is slowly becoming a game where those execution barriers are presenting themselves as issues for players like @Advent. That's not to call them out as being "bad", only to highlight that this is a problem for players right now.

    I do wonder where we'll be with it in another expansion or two. Do we want FF14 to be the MMO that requires precise execution across 40+ skills to play well? Do we want it to require 120 APM to excel at like Starcraft, or be a game that rewards well thought out decisions like Magic the Gathering? We're at something of a crossroads in the design at the moment and whichever path Squenix choose will shape the game and it's audience in the future.

  12. #46832
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    FF14 has slowly accumilated more and more oGCDs so what starts off being a reasonably slow paced combat eventually ends up being a challenge based heavilly on it's execution, much like hardcore fighters such as Guilty Gear. Is that an ideal comparison? No, perhaps not. But FF14 is slowly becoming a game where those execution barriers are presenting themselves as issues for players like @Advent. That's not to call them out as being "bad", only to highlight that this is a problem for players right now.

    I do wonder where we'll be with it in another expansion or two. Do we want FF14 to be the MMO that requires precise execution across 40+ skills to play well? Do we want it to require 120 APM to excel at like Starcraft, or be a game that rewards well thought out decisions like Magic the Gathering? We're at something of a crossroads in the design at the moment and whichever path Squenix choose will shape the game and it's audience in the future.
    I feel like you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill here. XIV is still very low CPM compared to other MMOs, and it's a fairly slow genre to begin with. We're in no danger of Starcraft APM levels or something.

  13. #46833
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    This is the kind of mindset I don't understand. Waiting 1-2 seconds for something? What about Limit Breaks, they're 3 seconds to cast in addition to their long animations. You're not "doing nothing" during that time, you're still engaged in combat. There are ways to have time where the player isn't actively hitting buttons at every second without losing their interest.
    There's a distinct difference, to me at least, between activating an ability with a cast time and "waiting" the same amount of time before you're allowed to do anything. Having a spell with a 4 second cast time is very different feeling than having to wait 4 seconds to hit an ability, at least in terms of game play feel.

    True, the end result is the same, you have to wait 4 seconds between activating another ability. However, in one of those scenarios your character is literally doing nothing and in the other it's casting a spell. The difference may be small, but the difference in game play feel is pretty profound to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Why are you bringing up WoW as a counter? I didn't say a word about it.

    Dungeon spam is considerably faster way to level. FATEs can be ass to solo as a DPS due to lack of self-healing (and zones are empty, so grouping is out of question), side quests give very little experience and are finite, Beast Tribe dailies give pretty low XP too. Hunts? I have no idea how you are going to solo group bosses.
    All of those smaller sources of xp add up. You can be in queue for a dungeon while doing as many FATEs as possible, chugging along on side quests, doing Beast Tribes or tagging along on the hunt and hoping you get enough credit for gold.

    Separately, none of them are spectacular, but they add up. That said, dungeons are the far better option, but you have to wait in queue as a DPS (unless you want to do Trusts which is a separate discussion, IMO) which means you have time to do something else to supplement the xp you're going to get from the dungeon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Leveling in FFXIV takes a shit ton of time even with double XP from having one job on level cap and rested bonus, so I disagree.
    Depends on what you mean by "a shit ton" because I've been leveling alt jobs from 70-80 in a matter of 3-4 days pretty casually, doing the Roulettes, cruising around doing FATEs and side quests as I'm waiting on the queues and then queuing up for the highest level dungeon I can (if I get through all of that in the same day, which isn't often).

    I could be doing Trusts and be going maybe a little faster, but I only use those as a last resort or if I just don't feel like doing side quests because they're so slow and predictable.

  14. #46834
    Quote Originally Posted by dk3790 View Post
    nope it doesn't. Kinda why it's so hard for me to find good groups. I have nothing to base off to know if a group is decent or not other than what they tell me. Hint: they always talk themselves up, it's never realistic.

    I guess I could go off fflogs, but....I haven't seen a single group that has good parses other than the top groups that raid alot of hours.
    Yeah that's probably the #1 thing that makes me say that WoW's better for raiding than other games, the support. Y'know besides that their encounter design team is one of if not the best in the industry.


    I remember playing Swtor and dealing with such nonsense to try and find a decent guild. Its so hard to filter through stuff when there's no support, people always talk big. I lucked out and found a great guild and then they announced they were going F2P and my guild dissolved and that was that for that game.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2019-08-12 at 01:57 AM.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  15. #46835
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    That's typically what it takes to kill bosses and clear content in a timely manner.
    Top groups also push a ton of tries in order to kill stuff, they just do more/week than the midcore groups.

    For the individual player, the savage bosses aren't all that difficult to do w/o too many errors.
    It's getting 8 people do do it w/o (or very few) mistakes that's the time eater.
    If wiping 100x to a savage boss turns you off: raiding isn't for you and a "top group" won't really fix that.
    A majority of ff14 savage bosses don't require doing mechanics in sync together. For the most part it's just doing your own part so no, being in a group of 8 has no impact, the players just aren't that good. Every single boss this tier (up to e3s, since that's where I'm at), it's been everyone has their own role to do regardless of what the other people do. e3s is legit primal level difficulty, I'm not even exaggerating.

  16. #46836
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,548
    Quote Originally Posted by dk3790 View Post
    A majority of ff14 savage bosses don't require doing mechanics in sync together. For the most part it's just doing your own part so no, being in a group of 8 has no impact, the players just aren't that good.
    I was referring to: 1 player makes a mistake, dies = wipe, as it usually is in savage. Esp at these early gear levels where enrages are definitely an issue.
    Very few people are that good that they can handle these encounters out of the box. I certainly can't and need at least 5-10 tries to get a hang of it. Multiply that by 8 and and you get 40-80 wipes quite easily.

    Sure, doing JUST THEM MECHANICS is easy as f*** once you understand what to do. Doing the mechanics and playing your class at a high enough level to meet the demands of the design team? That requires a bit of practice. Not a whole lot, compared to sth. actually difficult like playing the piano, but you need to see stuff a few times.

  17. #46837
    Mechagnome Sharby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    704
    Finally back from vacation time to finish off Titania.


    Also Sch is p fun might make it my main healer over AST/WHM when I get it to 80.
    Honorary member of the Baine fanclub, the only member really.

  18. #46838
    Can't wait til my group gets leveled up (a few finally came over from wow) all this talk about savage but I refuse to do it with randoms because of bad experiences. Should be fun once we're there though!

  19. #46839
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,548
    Savage is fun. A bit easier mechanically compared to Mythic raiding, mostly related to a much clearer design language by the ff xiv DEVs.

    Most annoying part for me is dealing with system inadequacies like delay and UI. You get used to it and push through.

  20. #46840
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I feel like you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill here. XIV is still very low CPM compared to other MMOs, and it's a fairly slow genre to begin with. We're in no danger of Starcraft APM levels or something.
    I admit the example was intentionally exagerated, perhaps almost to the point of hyperbole, but I don't feel that undermines the point I was making.

    Broadly speaking, I was stating that there are two directions FF14 could go from it's current design. One which is more execution heavy, with longer rotations and more oGCD's, more bosses with telegraphed AoEs you need to be watching closely to avoid and so on. A game where, fundamentally, the challenge is all in the execution of your rotation while avoiding AoE and doing mechanics.

    The other direction, which I also exagerated in the extreme by comparing it with Magic the Gathering, is one where the gameplay revolves around making the right decisions in combat rather than on execution. Where carefully choosing the best option for the given situation from a larger pool is where the core gameplay loop lies.

    Right now I'd say that most of the DPS jobs are skewed more towards the former, relying on lots of button presses in between other skills in your rotation while keeping a close eye on what the mobs/boss you're fighting are also doing. Most of the content in Shadowbringers has been in line with this too, with almost every single dungeon boss having a visual tell you need to be on the look out for if you want to avoid AoE. As a result, the people who prefer the latter option may not find what they're looking for from a DPS job.

    Both are fine ways for the game to go of course, one isn't inherently better than the other, but with the game on the whole speeding up since Heavensward I do think it's right to question if it's either required or desirable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    True, the end result is the same, you have to wait 4 seconds between activating another ability. However, in one of those scenarios your character is literally doing nothing and in the other it's casting a spell. The difference may be small, but the difference in game play feel is pretty profound to me.
    Yes indeed.

    You don't need to have long casts for it either. Like I brought up with my reloading example, there are ways you can do this so the player doesn't even know it's happening. What if you could hold down the button for 3 seconds to charge up the skill to do extra damage. That's a fun way to get a couple of seconds time out for the player to think about what they're doing without removing them from the experience.

    How about having all your skills on cooldown? That's a brief window of downtime while you wait for them to be ready again. Or a multi-hitting super move with a long animation. There's lots of potential outside of FF14's long phase transitions.
    Last edited by StrawberryZebra; 2019-08-12 at 04:42 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •