1. #46841
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I admit the example was intentionally exagerated, perhaps almost to the point of hyperbole, but I don't feel that undermines the point I was making.

    Broadly speaking, I was stating that there are two directions FF14 could go from it's current design. One which is more execution heavy, with longer rotations and more oGCD's, more bosses with telegraphed AoEs you need to be watching closely to avoid and so on. A game where, fundamentally, the challenge is all in the execution of your rotation while avoiding AoE and doing mechanics.

    The other direction, which I also exagerated in the extreme by comparing it with Magic the Gathering, is one where the gameplay revolves around making the right decisions in combat rather than on execution. Where carefully choosing the best option for the given situation from a larger pool is where the core gameplay loop lies.

    Right now I'd say that most of the DPS jobs are skewed more towards the former, relying on lots of button presses in between other skills in your rotation while keeping a close eye on what the mobs/boss you're fighting are also doing. Most of the content in Shadowbringers has been in line with this too, with almost every single dungeon boss having a visual tell you need to be on the look out for if you want to avoid AoE. As a result, the people who prefer the latter option may not find what they're looking for from a DPS job.

    Both are fine ways for the game to go of course, one isn't inherently better than the other, but with the game on the whole speeding up since Heavensward I do think it's right to question if it's either required or desirable.
    Well, two things about this.

    1) The gameplay being quicker isn't mutually exclusive with making decisions. Indeed, your decision-making abilities are put to the test much more in a faster environment. (Which is why things like faster time controls exist in Chess, for example)

    2) "Decisions" tend to be anything but in MMO gameplay, regardless of gameplay speed. Especially in XIV where things tend to be very rigid. You have to be positioned here, you have to move out of the red, you have to do the mechanics as they're presented, and you have to tank the boss, heal people, and do enough DPS. You really can't make a lot of true decisions, you can just fail at the execution.

  2. #46842
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Yes indeed.

    You don't need to have long casts for it either. Like I brought up with my reloading example, there are ways you can do this so the player doesn't even know it's happening. What if you could hold down the button for 3 seconds to charge up the skill to do extra damage. That's a fun way to get a couple of seconds time out for the player to think about what they're doing without removing them from the experience.

    How about having all your skills on cooldown? That's a brief window of downtime while you wait for them to be ready again. Or a multi-hitting super move with a long animation. There's lots of potential outside of FF14's long phase transitions.
    I'm not against phase transitions in practice, what bothers me about them is how it affects the classes designed around ramp up and a timed payout. Like Summoner with Bahamut and Phoenix...they could go completely wasted if used right before a transition. Many classes were updated to mitigate that somewhat, like Monk and Black Mage, but there are still some that have abilities tied to a long build up like that.

    In many cases the game play feel is far more important to me than what is actually going on, as long as I don't "feel" the down time within my game play it's not a big deal.

    I like the charging idea, I would just wonder how that would work with latency and stuff. Much as far as player agency goes I like the idea behind that. It really would add a layer of depth and decision making to any class that had it.

  3. #46843
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm not against phase transitions in practice, what bothers me about them is how it affects the classes designed around ramp up and a timed payout. Like Summoner with Bahamut and Phoenix...they could go completely wasted if used right before a transition. Many classes were updated to mitigate that somewhat, like Monk and Black Mage, but there are still some that have abilities tied to a long build up like that.
    Heh, it drives me nuts because as time goes on it seems like Square wants EVERY CLASS to have Inner Release or Dreadwyrm Trance or something very similar.

  4. #46844
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Heh, it drives me nuts because as time goes on it seems like Square wants EVERY CLASS to have Inner Release or Dreadwyrm Trance or something very similar.
    True, pretty much all DPS classes have something like this, though some have it worse than others. With the changes made, Summoner and Machinist seem to be the most affected with how long it takes to build up to their big CD usage. Black Mage and Monk used to have it bad too, but that was practically eliminated with their changes.

    I think that's why I gravitated towards Red Mage in Stormblood and Dancer now, neither one of those classes are heavily impacted by this sort of thing, recover quickly and can simply just start right into their main rotation with no, or very little, build up.

  5. #46845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Heh, it drives me nuts because as time goes on it seems like Square wants EVERY CLASS to have Inner Release or Dreadwyrm Trance or something very similar.
    Probably because it makes balancing easier.

  6. #46846
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    That feeling when people generally are upset by 8-9k dps and you know that's where you always fall... I just slink off into a corner somewhere.
    8-9k DPS? I'll take that any day over this:


    Yes this was my expert roulette. Yes we tried to help. No he was not a sprout, and he was shittily geared (roughly i428). 0 deaths.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Sometimes having a bit of a break from pressing buttons builds up a sense of anticpation, that you're waiting for the opportunity to strike for maximum effect. Plenty of Action orentated games do this extremely well, such as Dark Souls or God of War, where waiting for the right moment to go on the offensive adds a ton of tension to the combat even when you're not pressing any buttons. I watched Tekken 7 at Evo last weekend and there's a ton of tension and anticipation even when the players on the main stage are just circling each other looking to get an opening to attack.

    I'd be very interested to hear what opinions other people have on the matter.
    Speaking personally here - I don't like non-GCD locked classes. It's one of my chief complaints in WoW with regard to Ret. That's just me though. I like @Katchii don't mind some downtime, but excessive (and it doesn't take much for me to consider it excessive) is a detriment.

    As a huge DS fan, the reason I like those games isn't the combat engine. It's arguably the weakest part of the game IMO. I like it because it's a fair but punishing game where every death is genuinely my own fault. I like the atmosphere and sense of exploration and the grandiosity of the boss encounters and the items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I really would like to know how healers manage 5K DPS single target in an encounter such as E2s that requires a lot of actual healing.
    Me gets 5Kisn on dungeon bosses where I barely have to do anything but massage the glare button, aye but 5K in a savage encounter?
    Forget it.

    I managed 3.3K when we killed E1s last week.
    It's really all about oGCD usage, shields and regens. I know that sounds stupid, but a great example is the dual tank buster. You do not have to heal the OT once, the entire encounter with like a direct heal. The tankbuster won't kill them and neither will the follow up Entropy. Let regens handle it. The entire 2nd flare phase has 0 damage going out expect autos. It's like a full minute and a half of unmitigated Glare spam lol. You don't need to panic heal the incoming damage from the flares, again regens will handle it.

    The first bit of the fight has no real damage going out there either.

  7. #46847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    It's really all about oGCD usage, shields and regens. I know that sounds stupid, but a great example is the dual tank buster. You do not have to heal the OT once, the entire encounter with like a direct heal. The tankbuster won't kill them and neither will the follow up Entropy. Let regens handle it. The entire 2nd flare phase has 0 damage going out expect autos. It's like a full minute and a half of unmitigated Glare spam lol. You don't need to panic heal the incoming damage from the flares, again regens will handle it.

    The first bit of the fight has no real damage going out there either.
    TB is taken by one tank via CD and him I heal via Benediction.
    As for entropy: I typically Cast AoE heal with HoT + Assize.

    Shields, barring Bension I can't do, that would be up to the SCH. :P

  8. #46848
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Speaking personally here - I don't like non-GCD locked classes. It's one of my chief complaints in WoW with regard to Ret.
    If you don't have free GCDs, then every single utility spell becomes a dps loss. In particular, I like Ret paladins being able to toss a Cleanse, a Blessing of Freedom, a heal or two, etc. To me, that's central to the class identity. Thus it's very important for Ret paladins to be non-GCD locked. Of course, it's possible to take this too far. See the design of the WoW Classic paladin, for example. Nothing but empty GCDs for you to spend utility on.

    Now, FFXIV can get around this to a degree by making utility be off-GCD.

  9. #46849
    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    If you don't have free GCDs, then every single utility spell becomes a dps loss.
    And that's ok.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  10. #46850
    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    If you don't have free GCDs, then every single utility spell becomes a dps loss.
    The thing is, that's fine. Or rather, it is in other games.

    XIV is really the most DPS-obsessed game I've played. It's actually a bit frustrating at times.

  11. #46851
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    How about having all your skills on cooldown? That's a brief window of downtime while you wait for them to be ready again.
    That's actually how EQ2 worked, it's a bit odd and you end up having about 48 skills or so, at least for mystic and dirge. I wouldn't recommend that style to most people really.

  12. #46852
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The thing is, that's fine. Or rather, it is in other games.

    XIV is really the most DPS-obsessed game I've played. It's actually a bit frustrating at times.
    How so? Or where?

    In Savage or Extreme content, yeah I see it, but usually only when your gear level is low in comparison to the content, once your gear level matches or exceeds the content it's all about the mechanics, and knowing your class well enough to pull even average numbers.

    Pretty much everywhere else, which is primarily where I spend my time, I rarely see anyone discussing DPS. The only time I make comments are when I see people just not doing anything, like mages (DPS or healers) that aren't casting for long periods of time or melee that aren't moving at all during fights and not hitting positionals. But that isn't so much about the DPS as it is participation and effort.

  13. #46853
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I was referring to: 1 player makes a mistake, dies = wipe, as it usually is in savage. Esp at these early gear levels where enrages are definitely an issue.
    Very few people are that good that they can handle these encounters out of the box. I certainly can't and need at least 5-10 tries to get a hang of it. Multiply that by 8 and and you get 40-80 wipes quite easily.

    Sure, doing JUST THEM MECHANICS is easy as f*** once you understand what to do. Doing the mechanics and playing your class at a high enough level to meet the demands of the design team? That requires a bit of practice. Not a whole lot, compared to sth. actually difficult like playing the piano, but you need to see stuff a few times.
    Yea, just multiply that by like 10. People still make mistakes after 50 wipes either due to just not understanding what to do, or just not paying attention. That's the level of raiders in this game outside of the top groups. It's a lot lower standard than WoW. I hate to compare the two, but it's kinda true. Although.....I haven't raided in wow in forever so maybe it's not fair to make that comparison at this point.

    But like I wrote earlier, with a lack of wowprogress equivalent, I have no idea what kind of groups I get into. For all I know I may be joining groups that are like below world 1000 equivalent of wow raiding guilds. There's just no way to know (at least that I know of).

  14. #46854
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    Of course people make mistakes. They are human.
    Everyones attention wanes now and then, everyone of us has brain lags.

    I don't see much difference in skill between my WoW guild and the FF group I raid with. Both had around 50% Mythic/Savage clear progress.

    If you are talking about the bulk of the community: they are completely incompetent in both games. There is a reason why I never set foot into a PuG raid in WoW or in FF.
    The main difference is that FFs community shuns open criticism (partially encouraged by the asinine "parses are evil" stance of the developers) and is obsessed with fake politeness while in WoW people will plaster it in your face if you do sth wrong.

  15. #46855
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    The main difference is that FFs community shuns open criticism (partially encouraged by the asinine "parses are evil" stance of the developers) and is obsessed with fake politeness while in WoW people will plaster it in your face if you do sth wrong.
    Parses are not bad necessarily but it has become a complete monster in WoW where it went from are you carrying your weight to are you topping the charts constantly on Warcraftlogs and if not you are the worst player of your class to ever exist. People who call themselves guild leads not understanding how parses can be padded and putting extreme pressure to the point people quit over it.

    I saw a total of 6 guilds completely fall apart when I returned for BFA from pure drama caused by this barrage of add ons that never used to be required but Blizzard pumped the mechanics on bosses from 1-5 to up to 57! on Ashara alone. DBM was always this nice thing going back to wrath that got the job done but when you need 3 seperate weak auras if not more for one single fight the drama in guilds gets to extreme levels.

    It is now my opinion that addons while nice went from being optional to mandatory to even play the game. It is quite nice actually being able to watch the boss and not have my eye constantly on a dps meter or reviewing logs.

  16. #46856
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    How so? Or where?

    In Savage or Extreme content, yeah I see it, but usually only when your gear level is low in comparison to the content, once your gear level matches or exceeds the content it's all about the mechanics, and knowing your class well enough to pull even average numbers.

    Pretty much everywhere else, which is primarily where I spend my time, I rarely see anyone discussing DPS. The only time I make comments are when I see people just not doing anything, like mages (DPS or healers) that aren't casting for long periods of time or melee that aren't moving at all during fights and not hitting positionals. But that isn't so much about the DPS as it is participation and effort.
    I mean, I've had people whine at me for pressing Clemency because "it's a DPS loss!!" in dungeons.

    But beside that, the community IS obsessed with DPS and speedrunning in all things. That's really not something you can reasonably debate I would think, not after years of "Why is our Green DPS casting heals?" and the like.

    Granted, people want to finish shit fast in every game, but I've never seen it taken to the same level.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2019-08-13 at 06:27 PM.

  17. #46857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    I saw a total of 6 guilds completely fall apart when I returned for BFA from pure drama caused by this barrage of add ons that never used to be required but Blizzard pumped the mechanics on bosses from 1-5 to up to 57! on Ashara alone. DBM was always this nice thing going back to wrath that got the job done but when you need 3 seperate weak auras if not more for one single fight the drama in guilds gets to extreme levels.

    It is now my opinion that addons while nice went from being optional to mandatory to even play the game.
    Pumping up the encounter complexity by taking addons in mind and ultimately rendering them mandatory is on the DEVs though. Sad to hear it got this crazy. Last I raided was Hellfire Citadel in WoD and it wasn't as bad back then. Man... so long ago. :X

    Just as the rather strict enrages in a game supposed to be played without a parser, that only enforces harsh selection due to necessity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I mean, I've had people whine at me for pressing Clemency because "it's a DPS loss!!" in dungeons.
    Oo

    Seriously?
    LoL.

  18. #46858
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I mean, I've had people whine at me for pressing Clemency because "it's a DPS loss!!" in dungeons.

    But beside that, the community IS obsessed with DPS and speedrunning in all things. That's really not something you can reasonably debate I would think, not after years of "Why is our Green DPS casting heals?" and the like.

    Granted, people want to finish shit fast in every game, but I've never seen it taken to the same level.
    I guess I just don't see it the same way.

    Speedrunning for me isn't about "DPS," per se, it's about efficiency. True, you need good enough DPS to make it work right, but even in speed runs I rarely ever see anyone commenting on the actual DPS output, just whether or not people are actively participating and not phoning it in during the run. Same with healers, I only ever see comments, or comment myself, about healers when they're either standing around doing nothing in between heals, or doing practically nothing but over healing. Their actual DPS isn't ever really discussed.

    As to the people yelling at you for using Clemency in a dungeon, they're idiots. It's a tool you have, you used it appropriately and if the two actual DPS in the dungeon can't compensate for one GCD use, let alone the two of them plus the healer, they're trash and can be ignored. Just like with anyone else, a dead DPS does no DPS...keeping yourself and/or the group alive is always priority one (with some exceptions in margin situations where a sacrifice can save you from a wipe or get the kill or something). Besides it's a fuckin dungeon...one GCD isn't going to affect anything.
    Last edited by Katchii; 2019-08-13 at 07:41 PM.

  19. #46859
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    2) "Decisions" tend to be anything but in MMO gameplay, regardless of gameplay speed. Especially in XIV where things tend to be very rigid. You have to be positioned here, you have to move out of the red, you have to do the mechanics as they're presented, and you have to tank the boss, heal people, and do enough DPS. You really can't make a lot of true decisions, you can just fail at the execution.
    As you rightly point out, is FF14 doesn't allow for much in the way of creative decision making. It's all in the execution. Shadowbringers has brought a lot of changes that have pushed the game to being even more of an execution based challenge. That can be a very frustrating place to be in if you know how to execute on the stratergy, but you're unable to physically do it.

    Should it be? I've always been pretty vocal about the fact that I think the answer is no, I think that being skilled at the game should require less in the way of rote memorisation and muscle memory and instead require a more free-form understanding of the mechanics underpinning your Job that allows those who can work within them to excel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    In many cases the game play feel is far more important to me than what is actually going on, as long as I don't "feel" the down time within my game play it's not a big deal.

    I like the charging idea, I would just wonder how that would work with latency and stuff. Much as far as player agency goes I like the idea behind that. It really would add a layer of depth and decision making to any class that had it.
    So downtime is fine when it's not something you actively notice. I see.

    As for the charging idea, plenty of other games already do it, so it's nothing new in that regard. I just threw it out there as one potential way you could implement button mash breaks without disrupting the flow of combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Speaking personally here - I don't like non-GCD locked classes. It's one of my chief complaints in WoW with regard to Ret. That's just me though. I like @Katchii don't mind some downtime, but excessive (and it doesn't take much for me to consider it excessive) is a detriment.
    Is there any reason for this?

    Personally, I'm fine with not pushing a button as long as I'm doing something else, it doesn't matter if that's a utility skill, handling a mechanic or just a few seconds waiting on a resource to be available, timer to run out etc. They don't feel like "doing nothing" as often as they feel like playing smart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    As a huge DS fan, the reason I like those games isn't the combat engine. It's arguably the weakest part of the game IMO. I like it because it's a fair but punishing game where every death is genuinely my own fault. I like the atmosphere and sense of exploration and the grandiosity of the boss encounters and the items.
    I brought up DS to with regards to it's anticpation. You'll spend a lot of your time in combat, particularly with bosses, waiting for a swing so you can dodge and go on the offensive. With how fragile the player is it creates quite a tense experience even with very little in the way of actual mechanics. FF14 on the other hand has always handled anticipation very poorly in my opinion. You spend 2 whole minutes waiting and building up to Bahamut and when you finally get there, it's a very underwhelming pay off for all the hard work. The Scholar feels the same too, where the Fairy Gauge skills are a let down. Even a White Mage's Misery feels lackluster for the time it takes to ready, and Astrologians Divination isn't exactly the high point of the Job it really should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    In particular, I like Ret paladins being able to toss a Cleanse, a Blessing of Freedom, a heal or two, etc.
    Coincidentally, this is actually the reason I enjoy Ret in BFA. It's fun being able to offer up utility where required without losing any DPS. It's great in PvP too - Those BoP's are lifesavers and Cleanse is amazing in smaller skirmishes.

  20. #46860
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    As you rightly point out, is FF14 doesn't allow for much in the way of creative decision making. It's all in the execution. Shadowbringers has brought a lot of changes that have pushed the game to being even more of an execution based challenge. That can be a very frustrating place to be in if you know how to execute on the stratergy, but you're unable to physically do it.

    Should it be? I've always been pretty vocal about the fact that I think the answer is no, I think that being skilled at the game should require less in the way of rote memorisation and muscle memory and instead require a more free-form understanding of the mechanics underpinning your Job that allows those who can work within them to excel.
    I agree with the idea. FFXIV skill ceiling is just being able to multi-task. Having a rotation that rarely deviates from itself creates a pattern you can repeat, being able to execute this pattern while also paying attention to and successfully resolve encounter mechanics is the hallmark of someone who know has memorized the encounter well and has "mastered" their class (played it so often and so much that the pattern becomes muscle memory, really).

    WoW does a much better job providing a deeper experience than this with ever changing mechanics and priorities both within the boss encounter itself and within the class you're playing. I just wish each spec had more abilities to use to add more flavor or combinations.

    I don't really know how to articulate it but here goes: WoW's class mechanics are mechanically deeper, requiring a deeper understanding of the class and it's underlying mechanics in order to really bring forth their potential, however once you HAVE that understanding, the actual execution feels boring because it boils down to hitting the correct button out of like 4 buttons. In FFXIV, the situation is the opposite. The class mechanics are pretty shallow and you don't need to have a deep understanding of the class mechanics to bring forth their maximum potential, but the sheer number of abilities you have to use to maximize your output requires you to pay attention to (in some capacity) what you're doing regardless of your skill level.

    So downtime is fine when it's not something you actively notice. I see.

    As for the charging idea, plenty of other games already do it, so it's nothing new in that regard. I just threw it out there as one potential way you could implement button mash breaks without disrupting the flow of combat.
    Pretty much, if I don't notice it, or if the delay is there but combat still has a very rhythmic feel, it's fine. In many cases, like Rogue or Feral Druid combat never felt very rhythmic, it just felt disrupted at the times where I was waiting for my energy to regenerate. That's why I've always preferred Monk to Rogue even though they both have similar builder-spender playstyles. Monks combat flow just felt better to me, and there are pauses in their game play too.

    Is there any reason for this?

    Personally, I'm fine with not pushing a button as long as I'm doing something else, it doesn't matter if that's a utility skill, handling a mechanic or just a few seconds waiting on a resource to be available, timer to run out etc. They don't feel like "doing nothing" as often as they feel like playing smart.
    I can't speak for @Wrecktangle but based on what I know, I'd bet it has to do with player agency and the decision making process. It's not your decision, you're not choosing to pause and make a decision on which ability to use or what you're going to do in a given situation, the game is forcing you to not do anything during that time period. Being GCD locked means you need to make a decision at every GCD on what ability to use, when and why.

    For me, it's pretty much the same. I know pretty much exactly what I want to be doing when those pauses happen I just can't do it because the game is forcing me to wait those 2+ seconds before I can actually do it. On WoW Rogue for example, I know I want to use the Mutilate ability, but I just expended all my energy building up my combo points, so before I can do what I want I HAVE to wait for my energy to build up before I can do it. That pause doesn't feel good to me, it's just disrupting what I actually want to be doing.

    Maybe it's just the way I play those classes, but it never feels flowy and natural to me, they always feel disruptive.

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