[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Arc Tossz]

FF xiv is not half bad, they sohuld jsut extend the free to paly cap

[KrayZ33]

That's half truth at least for DAO. With level scaling there's no way to tell what's half of your toolkit, but let's say it's level 10 and it could have been achieved probably 1/3 into game. You play as a party, not as one character. More skills were just more options, they didn't dramatically change how you played. With high ability costs you were definitely not spamming skills like you do in FFXIV, it was more about tactical decision making.

Also, I don't know if you tried to sound like an asshole with 2-5 remark or it's accidental, but look at the franchise itself.

Hmmm? I just answered your question. I did say nothing about change in gameplay or whatever.
I was actually thinking about Dragon Age Inquisition though.

However, even in Dragon Age, it takes some time to get the character you want to work it the way you want, especially since most "advanced jobs" aren't even available early on, such as Ravager (or whatever it was called in Dragon Age Origins again). I'm not talking about abilities as a group, but abilities of a specific character.
I have no idea why you think I sounded like an asshole, when it's really most games that have more than 2-5 abilities (many games don't have more than that)

I can't even name a lot of RPGs that are not MMOs, that are not X and not Y also (I mean, basically everything was excluded because you have some kind of specific genre of RPG in mind) I traced your quote back up to roughly 4 steps to get a grasp of what you guys were talking about and I don't know why you were trying to exclude a certain type of RPG in the first place (other than the fact that it wouldn't fit your storytelling) - so, maybe I'm missing something.

Now as for your comparison to TBC and Classic, with those i agree with wrath i do not. Wrath gave you a whole lot more quicker, levelling is also much faster and not locked behind a lengthy MSQ that really slows you down.

Even Wrath had the skill tree. If I take Survival hunter as an example there. Black arrow and Explosive Arrow were locked behind talents.
I remember reaching lvl 20 in 10h or so back then knowing all the quests by heart etc. in burning crusade.. That was relatively fast. I'd need lvl 40 or 50 (can't quite remember). So yeah, for sure you'd play at least 20-30 hours as someone who doesn't even has the most important rotational abilities. Not sure how much leveling was nerfed in WotLK, I can't remember anything specific but I doubt it was nerfed at all.

[Rogalicus]

I can't even name a lot of RPGs that are not MMOs, that are not X and not Y also (I mean, basically everything was excluded because you have some kind of specific genre of RPG in mind) I traced your quote back up to roughly 4 steps to get a grasp of what you guys were talking about and I don't know why you were trying to exclude a certain type of RPG in the first place (other than the fact that it wouldn't fit your storytelling) - so, maybe I'm missing something.

I mean, I was really trying to come up with more examples myself and I struggle to find any game where abilities are gated this much other than your examples and maybe some other d20 (or close enough mechanically) games. Your examples are technically right, I just explained why it's less of a problem there. Other than that? TES doesn't have ability gating to this extent, M&M doesn't, Wizardry doesn't, Mass Effect doesn't, Arcanum doesn't, VtMB doesn't, Alpha Protocol doesn't. I don't remember any JRPG pulling something like this. What are the 'most' again?

[Wangming]

Something more positive and lighthearted in the middle of all this doom and gloom about ability numbers.

As for the topic at hand, WoW used to gate abilities pretty hard and I really miss those old days when you had to do class quests for the most iconic class abilities. Of course this disappears gradually on higher levels as FFXIV finds its place as a rather casual game. Also being a console MMO greatly limits ability numbers as it always needs to be playable with a gamepad.

[Acidbaron]

@Wangming , I would not see it as doom and gloom but other as a discussion as what can keep people away and what can be done better as there is a big disconnect between Pre and Post-ARR in many respects.

As for the whole discussion, many games may or may not have this the thing is here it is noticed and a hindrance for players starting out just stating that people should solider through it all while there's so much competition already is not a good thing. It also appears that it is know by the developers as they are tackling this issue.

[KrayZ33]

I mean, I was really trying to come up with more examples myself and I struggle to find any game where abilities are gated this much other than your examples and maybe some other d20 (or close enough mechanically) games. Your examples are technically right, I just explained why it's less of a problem there. Other than that? TES doesn't have ability gating to this extent, M&M doesn't, Wizardry doesn't, Mass Effect doesn't, Arcanum doesn't, VtMB doesn't, Alpha Protocol doesn't. I don't remember any JRPG pulling something like this. What are the 'most' again?

Aside from Mass Effect, I haven't played any of those (too old, never liked M&M-ish games because I'd get headaches playing them on my Amiga 25 years ago) so I can't say anything about that.
Mass effect doesn't have more than 5 abilities per class though and falls in my category.

I can only name games that I've played and most of them work like that when they have a certain amount of abilities.
Spellforce too. Basically, games that have a skill tree are often affected by this, ARPGs included. I'd include Diablo 2 for example.
One other title I could mention out of my head would be Shadow of Mordor, where skills and levels actually change the way you play the game too.
Dragon Quest has a skill distribution system too.
Dragon's Dogma too and many JRPG-MMOs that include jobs. RO, TOS yadda yadda etc. etc.

Doesn't mean that FFXIV is not obviously the biggest offender (I never even doubted that, in fact, 1000 pages ago, if you really want to look for it, you can see me saying the same thing and that the game and rotation is basically only starting at "whatever was the highest level at that point, the rest is a freaking huge tutorial".)

There are 3 types of skill system I know.

one is what FFXIV/WoW/Dragon Age/Spellforce etc. uses and involves leveling up your character and unlocking a skill.
one is usage based (Skyrim for example)
one is based around story progress item based or simply starts you off with all skills known from the very beginning (at most, you enhance them with talents or upgrade the item etc.. i.E. Witcher / Monster Hunter )

[Acidbaron]

A question as i noticed hrothgar helmets being mentioned once or twice, is that planned to happen or am i forever stuck with glasses, monocle's, headbands and so on?

Also why can't my chocobo companion fly
Have to say that the unlock flying mechanic isn't nearly as bad as i first expected it to be most of it you all unlock during questing and others can easily enough be found online.

[vom]

A question as i noticed hrothgar helmets being mentioned once or twice, is that planned to happen or am i forever stuck with glasses, monocle's, headbands and so on?

Also why can't my chocobo companion fly
Have to say that the unlock flying mechanic isn't nearly as bad as i first expected it to be most of it you all unlock during questing and others can easily enough be found online.

There's a quest for that in ishgard if I remember correctly. Near the chocobo stables.

[Dugna]

A question as i noticed hrothgar helmets being mentioned once or twice, is that planned to happen or am i forever stuck with glasses, monocle's, headbands and so on?

Also why can't my chocobo companion fly
Have to say that the unlock flying mechanic isn't nearly as bad as i first expected it to be most of it you all unlock during questing and others can easily enough be found online.

"I believe I can fly" in Ishgard, near the skysteel manufactory, it will be removed next patch with the changes but for now its there.

[Acidbaron]

There's a quest for that in ishgard if I remember correctly. Near the chocobo stables.

"I believe I can fly" in Ishgard, near the skysteel manufactory, it will be removed next patch with the changes but for now its there.

Oh okay thanks, will look for that one did not see it yet at level 59

[Katchii]

I mean, I was really trying to come up with more examples myself and I struggle to find any game where abilities are gated this much other than your examples and maybe some other d20 (or close enough mechanically) games. Your examples are technically right, I just explained why it's less of a problem there. Other than that? TES doesn't have ability gating to this extent, M&M doesn't, Wizardry doesn't, Mass Effect doesn't, Arcanum doesn't, VtMB doesn't, Alpha Protocol doesn't. I don't remember any JRPG pulling something like this. What are the 'most' again?

If you're trying to be specific about the "half the abilities part" then it's going to be difficult, because depending on who you are, what you care about and how you look at it the perception can change. The point is every RPG has abilities, skills, equipment, etc... that are gated behind levels or a certain amount of progression within the game.

FFXIV does it a little more excessively than others, granted, but this concept of gating abilities behind a certain level is not new (obviously, you knew that, just pointing it out).

[vom]

Oh okay thanks, will look for that one did not see it yet at level 59

Pretty sure it doesn't have the blue plus mark thing. It is just a normal quest. But it's been quite a bit of time since I have been around that level.

[Kaelwryn]

Pretty sure it doesn't have the blue plus mark thing. It is just a normal quest. But it's been quite a bit of time since I have been around that level.

No, its a blue plus quest. Its easy to not realize its a thing if you're focusing on doing msq, since you don't go to the stable area very often.

[Acidbaron]

I had a quest that gave me a black chocobo that could fly but that one i can't seem to find even at level 60, odd might bump into it later or i will do some searching on it might unlock later on in Heavensward.

edit: Nvm finally found it

[Granyala]

Man, this game.

Slow combat, boring as hell main quest that appears to be a neverending supply of mandatory busywork, and not even the promise of new and interesting abilities coming up. Just spamming stone and maybe aero now and then, until cap. I'm not even level 20, but I'm already drifting away. I seriously don't know how this game amassed the following it apparently has, nor this 2k+ page thread.

Any MMO's combat sucks until you get to max level and engage interesting bosses. More news at 11.
Hell, I'd argue WoWs non-raiding combat it as braindead as they come and look at the following of that game.

That being said: leveling as a WHM is as dull as it gets. Trust me. I did it myself, since it's my main.

- - - Updated - - -

Also just recently got introduced to the mechanic behind unlocking flying in a zone, aether currents not sure how i feel about that just yet.

It basically boils down to "explore the map". Easy to do esp when using the compass.
Finding the side quests that gave aethersoruces used to be the more annoying part until they changed the quest symbol to the blue one.

- - - Updated - - -

As for the topic at hand, WoW used to gate abilities pretty hard and I really miss those old days when you had to do class quests for the most iconic class abilities. Of course this disappears gradually on higher levels as FFXIV finds its place as a rather casual game. Also being a console MMO greatly limits ability numbers as it always needs to be playable with a gamepad.

IIRC, WoW only had very few class quests and most of them did not gave spells.
Resurrection is pretty much the only spell I can remember that needed a quest. The other class quests were for the mounts of pally/lock.
Blizzard was always against class quests in a larger style, because they felt it took too many resources.

As for the # of buttons: in my opinion, FF-XIV still has too many abilities per class. So much of it is redundant, and many abilities don't do much by themselves.

[Cattleya]

Last time I played WoW, I actually had less abilities on my hotbars than in FFXIV. You'd be surprised.

As for low level abilities, I do agree it'd be great if they front-loaded things more in that regard. Nobody likes doing Sastasha because everybody in the group gets stuck pressing 1 -> 2 in there.

[Rogalicus]

IIRC, WoW only had very few class quests and most of them did not gave spells.

Actually no, class quests gave warrior stances, warlock summons, shaman totems and so on.

[Xilurm]

Notice how none of the secret trials were listed as extreme? Whereas in every other patch they would list the secret trial as extreme as well? What a joke....

Umm...



They've always done it like this. And they did speak about one boss, which is probably Elidibus so yeah.

[Chelly]

Is it just lag or is the game supposed to make you still get hit from marked AoE abilities even if you've moved out of the zone for a solid second or two?

[Xilurm]

Is it just lag or is the game supposed to make you still get hit from marked AoE abilities even if you've moved out of the zone for a solid second or two?

Depends, is it ARR Titan or Ifrit? Then it's the latter. Everything after ARR then it's probably just lag.