[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Hyral]

It's a lot of coincidences that happened to line up in just a way that people were convinced it was planned out from the beginning. I think it has placed unrealistic expectations in the minds of the fandom that everything is connected and is going to tie together in some way.

I disagree. Creating a strong plot point that can survive with an open ended conclusion to be used later is not just a coincidence, it wasn't planned from the beginning but the intent of expanding upon it was always there. One of your sources shows they added the WoD storyline with the intent to explore the plot point of the shards and the Source and lay the foundations for a future storyline, so of course when the time came to explore a shard they had that foundation built. That's what I'm referring to.

Naoki Yoshida: First and foremost, when we were thinking about Patch 3.4, around three years ago, when we were trying to decide what the story was going to be like, we did have the thought that we wanted to depict the realm being shattered. Because the realm is shattered into fourteen different worlds, including The Source, we wanted to explain that through our narrative at one point. Not necessarily for the next expansion, but we wanted to make sure we allocated some time to depict that storyline.

I think creating a world that's so defined that storylines can blend together so seamlessly as to appear to have been intended from the start is worth praise. It shows they are always trying to lay strong foundations even if they haven't decide what they'll build upon them yet. I believe that's what most of the fandom admires rather than thinking the whole game had been planned out since ten years ago.

[Granyala]

I think they mean how the patches have been set up before.

Patch 3.3 (Revenge of the Horde) was basically the end of the Dragonsong War, with 3.4 (Soul Surrender) and 3.5 (Far Edge of Fate) easing us into and setting up the next storyline. Patch 4.3 (Under the Moonlight) was the end of most of our involvement with Doma, with 4.4 (Prelude in Violet) and 4.5 (A Requiem for Heroes) leading to ShB (in a terrific way).

Yes, that makes sense.

[Katchii]

Working as intended and is called "having skill".
Yes, I realize that fumbling it is frustrating. It is supposed to be.

Bullshit. It has very little to do with skill and much more to do with knowing the encounter and dungeons so well that you can time your rhythm. Which in static groups, is fine.

For people who only ever PuG, like me and play casually....even knowing the encounter and dungeon does very little to assuage this issue, because performance across groups can vary so much that it throws off your rhythm.

- - - Updated - - -

I know I am going against the grain saying this but last time I checked killing the boss is the goal of the game and not the ridiculous E-Peen DPS contest.
As such, holding on to CDs for problematic phases and thus sacrificing overall DPS is a valid tactical decision, provides the DPS isn't needed elsewhere. If it is, the SMN needs to just push through all the time and others need to pick up the slack in the problematic phase.

Not every class has to have burst on demand and that is okay.
It's one way for classes to differentiate themselves from each other. I played SPriest for many years, so I know how a lack of burst cooldowns feels.

Not disagreeing that the E-Peen contest is unimportant, but I'd argue that speed or efficiency of the overall content is more important if you were to guage something other than the entertainment factor.

Being able to get to the boss faster by blowing through the trash packs is just as valid a way to save time as blowing the boss up faster, time saved either way.

The problem with SMN is that because of how long it takes to build up to your big pay off, in many groups trash packs don't last long enough to make it worthwhile to use your big abilities because it takes so long to build back up to them, and the bosses die so quickly to the point where phases are pushed and your big abilities get wasted, because you activate them and then 5 seconds in the boss goes invulnerable for a phase transition. That's not an issue in most Shadowbringer dungeons because the bosses don't have invulnerability windows, but raid bosses still have them.

This is why I stopped playing SMN, because in situations like that it feels terrible to play, and as I said before it is not a skill issue because you're at the mercy of the rhythm of the class first, and the group second....and many times, especially in PuGs, those rhythms just don't line up at all.

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Already? Hmm feels too soon.
Wonder if they'll do a 5.4 or whether that's really it until the next expansion.

It's the closure of the Shadowbringers story arc is all, not the last patch of the expansion, it should still have additional patches to bridge the gap and give more bread crumb story bits between ShB and the next expansion.

Just noticed I have 3 back to back replies to you @Granyala. That's not intended to single you out or target you specifically, or whatever, your posts just happened to be the ones I saw and could easily reply to.

[Granyala]

This is why I stopped playing SMN, because in situations like that it feels terrible to play, and as I said before it is not a skill issue because you're at the mercy of the rhythm of the class first, and the group second....and many times, especially in PuGs, those rhythms just don't line up at all.

Knowing the encounter and adjusting to it is part of "skill" for me. Skill is not only about how fast/diligently you can mash your buttons but also incorporates strategic planning, gaining knowledge etc.

The above I can understand, you won't get any argument from me. I was talking about static groups only. PuGs are a mess, aye and can make such classes an exercise in frustration. I felt the same way, playing BLM in Heavensward. Never knowing how fast my random group would trigger the "You can't touch this! /dance" phases of the bosses was... aggravating ... and lead to a lot of lost Enochians.

Don't worry, I don't feel singled out.

[Kaelwryn]

In all likelihood there will at be least a 5.45, provided they keep up the patch/content rotation. We still only have one 24-man raid, which there's normally three per expansion. And then there's the 'weapon' trials which from the story there's still two characters that could become weapons, and if it keeps to pace that should put us at 5.45.

if it keeps pace, then it should put us at 5.5. Last 24man and trial for the "Chronicles of a New Era" side story are in .5 patches.

[Katchii]

Knowing the encounter and adjusting to it is part of "skill" for me. Skill is not only about how fast/diligently you can mash your buttons but also incorporates strategic planning, gaining knowledge etc.

The above I can understand, you won't get any argument from me. I was talking about static groups only. PuGs are a mess, aye and can make such classes an exercise in frustration. I felt the same way, playing BLM in Heavensward. Never knowing how fast my random group would trigger the "You can't touch this! /dance" phases of the bosses was... aggravating ... and lead to a lot of lost Enochians.

Don't worry, I don't feel singled out.

I don't put Summoner being frustrating to play because of difference in group performance in with skill, simply because it's not something you can personally control, you can only adjust based on each groups performance....but that's the problem with Summoner, as Strawberry Zebra was talking about, Summoner is one of those classes that just has considerable difficulty adjusting, if it can be really done at all.

I've also seen many, many many.......MANY people who know fights and encounters just fine, but simply don't have the skill to actually perform. As in, they can explain the mechanics, can provide strategy, yet still die to those mechanics, often.

Skill to me is being able to EXECUTE the strategy, not just knowing it, because anybody can read a guide, watch a video, or fumble their way through something enough times to understand how it's supposed to work.

[Kaelwryn]

Right, but we're still waiting on 5.3, which should bring us a new weapon trial and the next 24-man iteration in 5.35. Then 5.45 would be the wrap up of raid/trial content. But again, that's all provided they keep with the same content release structure. Either way, we'll learn more in a couple weeks time with the next letter from the producer. ^^

No, we're not getting a weapon trial this patch. We already know this for a fact from the last live letter. Also not sure why you think the 24 man is going to be released in 5.35. Major content like that is released with the initial major patch, barring the first raid tier which is staggered to give people time to level and enjoy the story. 5.4 will be the last tier for eden, with 5.5 being the last nier raid. That's how its worked since ARR.

5.35 if anything will bring the next step of the relic quest chain.

[Granyala]

Skill to me is being able to EXECUTE the strategy, not just knowing it, because anybody can read a guide, watch a video, or fumble their way through something enough times to understand how it's supposed to work.

You cannot execute what you do not know. Gathering knowledge, knowing where to find appropriate information and experimenting yourself if you are out of "draw according to numbers" area are part of the total skill package. You'd be surprised how many people fail at these basics and have a much harder time with a boss because of it.

Obviously theoretical knowledge alone does not suffice, I never said it did. You need to be able to put what you learned into practical use with an error quota low enough to defeat the challenge posed to you.

[Katchii]

Obviously theoretical knowledge alone does not suffice, I never said it did. You need to be able to put what you learned into practical use with an error quota low enough to defeat the challenge posed to you.

And this is what I call "skill."

There is A skill, which is something you can perform or do (ie a trade skill), and then there is HAVING skill, which is the ability to perform.

Being able to find and learn the knowledge is A skill, but being able to actually execute the strategy IS skill. Obviously you need both, but one is more easily acquired, and the other takes experience and finesse...which not all people will be able to actually ever put to practical use or even acquire.

[Granyala]

I don't see the distinction you do, to me they are both part of the same package but I have no interest in arguing semantics on the internet.
It's not productive.

[Katchii]

I don't see the distinction you do, to me they are both part of the same package but I have no interest in arguing semantics on the internet.
It's not productive.

I'm not sure how it's semantics, when the word has two definitions, they're not the same thing. But OK, I get your point about it not being productive.

[StrawberryZebra]

You cannot execute what you do not know. Gathering knowledge, knowing where to find appropriate information and experimenting yourself if you are out of "draw according to numbers" area are part of the total skill package.

A better way to visualise it might be to think of Time as being the Summoners Job Resource. When you overcap on Time you're losing potential damage, the same way you would if you were over capped on MP and Polyglot as a Black Mage, Beast Gauge as a Warrior, Kenki as a Samurai etc. Those jobs have way to prevent that potential overcap, and what they can spend it on is applied as immediate damage. Summoners do not, Time keeps passing regardless of what they do.

The Summoners "Time Spenders" also have a set duration they need to run for in order to be beneficial. If they're not, then you've got to save them for when they won't be wasted. If you do save them though, you're going to "overcap" on time and lose potential DPS there too. Without a way to "bank" that time to use for later, or a way quickly generate more to get your hard hitting abilities out faster the Summoner is always going to be at the mercy of how well their group performs.

The other side of this is that by delaying a part of your rotation for later, you're stuck in the lowest DPS part of your rotation until you're able to move to a higher DPS part. Consider it like a cooldown. By holding onto that cooldown for too long, you're missing out on extra uses and do less overall damage as a result. Unlike other Jobs though, by holding off the Summoner doesn't just delay reusing that one cooldown, they're delaying using ALL of their cooldowns.

It builds in some very limiting restrictions to the Job by its very design. Ones that are persistent problems when doing all forms of content. Knowing the content you're doing is all good and well, but the biggest issues lie within the jobs ability designs and are independent from any content you may be doing.

[dope_danny]

I just got 'DPS needed' for Trial Roullette. In like 7 years thats a bloody first.

[Granyala]

It builds in some very limiting restrictions to the Job by its very design. Ones that are persistent problems when doing all forms of content. Knowing the content you're doing is all good and well, but the biggest issues lie within the jobs ability designs and are independent from any content you may be doing.

I know and understand all that.
Though there is no real issue at hand. Even with the limitations, SMNs DPS is fine.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/33#dataset=80

BTW: "being stuck in the lowest DPS part" is kinda incorrect. This game does not have many phases that are critical to begin with and they don't last long enough to make use of all 3 trances, so as long as you make sure you are not in your "I have nothing up at all" phase, you can do business as usual.

Lets be frank for a moment: in most groups the SMN will e left out of the "save your CD's for phase X" game, similar to how a SPriest was left out of it by design.
Yes there will be occasional moments of "Arrgh!" when you miscalculated and just activated Bahamut and have him mostly standing there, watery eyes and able to do nothing. It happens. Especially in PuGs.

I consider a re design of the job, when SMN is last in DPS and starts having trouble to find groups. Until then: class diversity is a good thing. This game is homogenized enough as is.

[KrayZ33]

I have to play SMN at some point. I don't understand this discussion at all.
All I see are SMNs just rocking the meters wherever I go and all I know is that they have a 2 min cycle with roughly 1 burst-phase every minute.

[Rogalicus]

I consider a re design of the job, when SMN is last in DPS and starts having trouble to find groups.

I don't understand that argument. Bad DPS is a question of tuning, it can be dealt with even with flat potency buff on every single skill. Bad gameplay is a question of design and redesign should happen whenever class feels bad to play.

[KrayZ33]

I don't understand that argument. Bad DPS is a question of tuning, it can be dealt with even with flat potency buff on every single skill. Bad gameplay is a question of design and redesign should happen whenever class feels bad to play.

I have a question, in what way is SMN different to DRG for example?
I really didn't grasp the difference from the explanations so far.

for example this statement here:

The Summoners "Time Spenders" also have a set duration they need to run for in order to be beneficial. If they're not, then you've got to save them for when they won't be wasted. If you do save them though, you're going to "overcap" on time and lose potential DPS there too. Without a way to "bank" that time to use for later, or a way quickly generate more to get your hard hitting abilities out faster the Summoner is always going to be at the mercy of how well their group performs.

The other side of this is that by delaying a part of your rotation for later, you're stuck in the lowest DPS part of your rotation until you're able to move to a higher DPS part. Consider it like a cooldown. By holding onto that cooldown for too long, you're missing out on extra uses and do less overall damage as a result. Unlike other Jobs though, by holding off the Summoner doesn't just delay reusing that one cooldown, they're delaying using ALL of their cooldowns.

How exactly is that different to DRGs DPS phase? I'm not too good with all the skill names in this game but:
If you delay your red-bar phase, you are also in your lowest dps phase. You can delay that phase for... 10 seconds(?) without a DPS loss because at some point you *have* to use the proc that comes from "Jump" and triggers the red-phase (which lasts for 10 or 15s until you can't use it anymore and is lost forever, effectively delaying your DPS phase by 30 seconds.).
Everytime you are not doing it, you can't get it back. You can even lose it due to a transmission phase.
Either way, aren't most (like 95%+) bosses on strict timers anyway, I don't see how PuGs are a problem anywhere other than the really rare odd outlier. And then it's probably something every single job has to fight against and can't play perfectly around it.

[Rogalicus]

I have a question, in what way is SMN different to DRG for example?
I really didn't grasp the difference from the explanations so far.

for example this statement here:


How exactly is that different to DRGs DPS phase? I'm not too good with all the skill names in this game but:
If you delay your red-bar phase, you are also in your lowest dps phase. You can delay that phase for... 10 seconds(?) without a DPS loss because at some point you *have* to use the proc that comes from "Jump" and triggers the red-phase (which lasts for 10 or 15s until you can't use it anymore and is lost forever, effectively delaying your DPS phase by 30 seconds.).
Everytime you are not doing it, you can't get it back. You can even lose it due to a transmission phase.
Either way, aren't most (like 95%+) bosses on strict timers anyway, I don't see how PuGs are a problem anywhere other than the really rare odd outlier. And then it's probably something every single job has to fight against and can't play perfectly around it.

I feel like you write this assuming I like DRG gameplay. I don't, it's my most played job (because I like it thematically), but at the same time least enjoyed. Maybe these things are connected, the more I played it, the more I wondered about some atavisms of older design. Like why is BotD a thing if you can maintain it indefinitely and timer isn't an issue anymore in ShB, since they added the passive that gives you 30 seconds once you hit Nastrond phase. Mirage Dive should've been merged into Jump too, it's boring oGCD that does absolutely nothing for rotation other than unnecessary extra step for opening the eye.

As for comparison, I'm not that competent in SMN to answer you, my comment was not about this specific class, but more in general. On paper they really look quite similar with heavily cooldown-based rotation.

[KrayZ33]

Nah, I'm just asking because it sounds like SMN is different in that regard when these issues are in my opinion "true" for every single job in the game.
As soon as rotations don't line up with cooldowns or raid buffs anymore, it's a problem for every one and super hard to fix.

Even for Samurai for example. Forgetting to use a filler GCD once will make it so that the combo finisher won't line up with the cooldown anymore and you have to do some weird stuff to get it back working again or "reset" it with a DPS loss.
Or hope that uptime issues don't interfere with whatever "fix" you came up with.

So I was just thinking about what makes SMN feel different, because I haven't played it yet at max level.
And all the guides are so difficult to understand for that class when you have never really played it at high levels.

Mirage Dive should've been merged into Jump too, it's boring oGCD that does absolutely nothing for rotation other than unnecessary extra step for opening the eye.

well, Mirage Dive is a good oGCD though and I think Jump itself is much worse, or rather, the offender you are thinking about.
Mirage Dive actually gives you some room to prepare your DPS phase without losing *any* DPS because you can press it whenever you decide it's best.
Since it gives you control over your DPS window, I'd say it's quite the opposite of "unnecessary", it's exactly what is necessary in my opinion: More control over your rotation and burst windows.

[Granyala]

Bad DPS is a question of tuning, it can be dealt with even with flat potency buff on every single skill. Bad gameplay is a question of design and redesign should happen whenever class feels bad to play.

Oh absolutely, and I am not saying that SMN is awesome to play and no changes should ever be made.
My main concern are the manual pet skills that hit like wet noodles and feel completely out of place, in fact, the entire permanent pet feels that way to me.

But I also recognize that YMMV applies and many people might like the way it plays. Also I think designing according to the saying "Class X has Y, so Class Z should too." is not good game design. Classes should provide as different playstyles as they can possibly balance.

You can deal with many DPS problems via tuning but not all of them. If a design/scalability really sucks you need to go deeper or the class will fall behind again and again. See SPriest for many years in WoW (no clue how they are now but it was a common problem in the past).