1. #47481
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Square's always been kind of janky with login stuff. Granted, today is miles better than the days of FFXI's whole process, but still can be janky for some folks. Glad you managed to get in, though.
    This is one of the things that has always struck me as being odd about Squenix - Surely you would want your customer facing systems to be as transparent and easy to use as possible? Even when you use another platform like Steam, you've still got to contend with a fairly awkward system, usually separate to the third party platform.

    I can't remember who said it (possiably Jim Sterling?) but Squenix really do seem to have forgotten the art of simplicity.

  2. #47482
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    No no, you're thinking of Lahabrea. I'm talking about Lalabrea.
    Maybe he touched Tataru, but in the background of the game and she liked it?:P
    The hunter hoe with the least beloe.

  3. #47483

  4. #47484
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    So, I am back into retirement from raiding.

    Got approached by the group and apparently my co-healer still can't deal with my spontaneous and reactive way of healing (even though we killed bosses w/o much issue when it comes to healing).
    Suits me right, to be honest, ever since ShB the responsiveness of the game was so bad that raiding savage type difficulty was no longer fun.

  5. #47485
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    I wonder if there will be any major announcements during the upcoming Live Letter? Along the lines of another crossover event or new game feature like Blitzball?

  6. #47486
    Quote Originally Posted by Aruktai View Post
    I wonder if there will be any major announcements during the upcoming Live Letter? Along the lines of another crossover event or new game feature like Blitzball?
    I wouldn't get your hopes up. If anything we'll hear about PotD 3.0 and/or Eureka 2.0.

  7. #47487
    Did they nerf the 2b Leggings butt size in the patch or am I going crazy?

  8. #47488
    Bloodsail Admiral Dugna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merie View Post
    Did they nerf the 2b Leggings butt size in the patch or am I going crazy?
    nope in 5.15 they readjusted the look of the Raid gear abit. So wouldn't be surprised if that was included.

  9. #47489
    I finally managed to make time to do the Copied Factory and I'm really not impressed by it. It's a very mundane raid, lots of drab colour pallets and a somewhat generic industrial setting. Hobbes and Engles had me rolling my eyes so hard I'm surprised they didn't fall out of their sockets - Especially when they've failed to do anything unique, cool or interesting with the ideas either of those philosophers championed in any sense throughout the gameplay.

    Then again, I didn't enjoy Nier Automata either. I suppose that has a lot to do with it. I stand by what I said when the content was announced though - It's a cynical plan to turn two fan bases into one pile of cash.

    It's not like the Monster Hunter crossover where, even if you're not into playing MH all you get is a cool boss fight. Here they're deliberately and intentionally carrying on the exploration of themes and ideas (and even the story?) of another franchise entirely.

    I don't think I'm going to bother doing the rest of the 24 man content for this expansion. Which is a shame, I've never really been in a position where I'm able to put the time and effort into 8 man content. Guess that leaves me with logging on now and then to do some 4 man dungeons and maybe a little bit of alt job leveling here and there.

  10. #47490
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I finally managed to make time to do the Copied Factory and I'm really not impressed by it. It's a very mundane raid, lots of drab colour pallets and a somewhat generic industrial setting. Hobbes and Engles had me rolling my eyes so hard I'm surprised they didn't fall out of their sockets - Especially when they've failed to do anything unique, cool or interesting with the ideas either of those philosophers championed in any sense throughout the gameplay.

    Then again, I didn't enjoy Nier Automata either. I suppose that has a lot to do with it. I stand by what I said when the content was announced though - It's a cynical plan to turn two fan bases into one pile of cash.

    It's not like the Monster Hunter crossover where, even if you're not into playing MH all you get is a cool boss fight. Here they're deliberately and intentionally carrying on the exploration of themes and ideas (and even the story?) of another franchise entirely.

    I don't think I'm going to bother doing the rest of the 24 man content for this expansion. Which is a shame, I've never really been in a position where I'm able to put the time and effort into 8 man content. Guess that leaves me with logging on now and then to do some 4 man dungeons and maybe a little bit of alt job leveling here and there.
    I still haven't actually done the 24 man yet. Like you I have zero interest in Nier and, in my opinion, the gear from it looks terrible so that motivator isn't there either.

  11. #47491
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I finally managed to make time to do the Copied Factory and I'm really not impressed by it. It's a very mundane raid, lots of drab colour pallets and a somewhat generic industrial setting. Hobbes and Engles had me rolling my eyes so hard I'm surprised they didn't fall out of their sockets - Especially when they've failed to do anything unique, cool or interesting with the ideas either of those philosophers championed in any sense throughout the gameplay.
    I agree that the story presented was pretty much nonexistent.
    We will see if it gets better in the following parts.

    While I enjoyed Nier Automata, I never got what the hype was all about. Esp the first 2 playthroughs (you have to play it 3x to experience the story) were unnecessarily cryptic and devoid of actually interesting information.

  12. #47492
    uhm..

    doesn't Hobbes have different mechanics for each alliance (A B C) and thus resembles the original game quite well?
    (you know, second and third gamethrough being different and all that)

    So much for not introducing anything new?

  13. #47493
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    While I enjoyed Nier Automata, I never got what the hype was all about. Esp the first 2 playthroughs (you have to play it 3x to experience the story) were unnecessarily cryptic and devoid of actually interesting information.
    I've always considered the "you need to play for X time to get to the good part!" to be to the detrement of a game rather than a point in it's favour. Then again, I've been very vocal about not particularly caring for story in video games. Nier was a game that was never aimed towards players like myself. And that's fine, most of the games I enjoy probably don't appeal much to the fans of Neir either.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    uhm..

    doesn't Hobbes have different mechanics for each alliance (A B C) and thus resembles the original game quite well?
    (you know, second and third gamethrough being different and all that)
    I really can't say, I couldn't bring myself to complete Nier Automata even once. It was a game that was, for lack of a better phrase, too far up it's own arse to be anything like decent. The transitions from 3rd person action game to bullet hell shooter were just jarring. Despite the high praise it gets, I simply can't bring myself to enjoy it. If I hadn't recieved it as a gift, I wouldn't have even played it. It's not a game I would have ever bought for myself.

    Including references to the plot of another game, making the assumption that your players are fans of it too, and in this case I think it's over reaching. Being reminded of how much I disliked Nier doing content in another game is just... I don't know. Uncomfortable? Unpleasant? Whatever the term is, I don't want to do Copied Factory again and I won't be doing the related content either. Given how I mostly did the 24 man content and the grindy content, the idea of having two more Nier themed raids is having me consider unsubbing.

    The elephant in the room is that Thomas Hobbes and Friedrich Engels are both widely recognised philosophers. Final Fantasy has always been fond of giving the player homework to do by referencing real world people, places, religions and so on. This was an excellent opportunity to do the same thing again, have the players google for the boss, stumble upon the philosophy, then realise that the developers had incorporated those ideas into the boss fight.

    And Squenix have missed that opportunity. I consider that to be a disapointing waste of potential. Nier dropped the ball on this too of course, but I think I've ripped on that game enough at this point.

  14. #47494
    Hobbes thanks you for participating in his tests, sacrificing yourself for the "greater good"

    Hobbes IRL did the same thing by telling you to comply to absolute rule for the greater good (peace)

    Engels is a huge ass robot designed for work and excavation, resembling the working class' role of being responsible for creating wealth in a society in marxism
    At the same time, he is a rusty old robot that doesn't seem to get any of the 'wealth' at all.

    So in what way did they miss out?
    On top of that, Nier actually includes mechanics that are related to the name of the boss.
    Such as this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4PqHxYxRR8 (a very likely boss to be featured in the next parts btw in my opinion as it would be a great way to use the "look away from XY" mechanic)
    In fact, it's like that throughout the whole game. Like the part with Pascal and his teachings about "fear of death" - teaching you about that a life of fear is no life at all.


    I think you misunderstand what the robots are doing. They don't necessarily resemble the teaching of their names, in fact they resemble all that is wrong about it most of the time.
    The robots don't understand what they are "teaching" or "doing". That's part of the story.
    They are basically imitating something they know nothing about.

    This is a raid related to Nier, so the story behind it is obviously also related to Nier.
    Just like all the alliance raids before this so far have been about a different game (mostly in the same franchise though, but I didn't play FF-XYZ either so it's all the same.)
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-12-13 at 05:46 AM.

  15. #47495

  16. #47496
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I agree that the story presented was pretty much nonexistent.
    We will see if it gets better in the following parts.

    While I enjoyed Nier Automata, I never got what the hype was all about. Esp the first 2 playthroughs (you have to play it 3x to experience the story) were unnecessarily cryptic and devoid of actually interesting information.
    Before the raid released, I went back to my trusty ol' PS2 and played through all of the Drakengard endings. The final ending being one big ol' beast of a "fight" that enraged me to no end, but I locked into my NES mindset and beat that giant bald headed binch. Then I played NieR and got all the endings on that. NieR was more of replaying the exact same thing, but getting more insight with the additional playthroughs (they were fairly short, you started halfway on the additional playthroughs and knew the short cuts at that point). Automata played better in that, other than the 2nd playthrough with 2B, it felt more like each "playthrough" was adding new chapters to the story.

    That said, I ultimately like NieR more than Automata. I think the story is more engrossing, the twist is more of a gut punch, and Emil is so much more interesting than the Automata cast. You also get a wider range of emotion and the voice acting just seals the deal for me. I'm hoping it gets a remake announced for the 10th anniversary. Just apply Automata's combat design and it's good to go.

    Now once I knock out a few of the current games I picked up, I'll go back to Drakengard 3 and see where everything really began.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    uhm..

    doesn't Hobbes have different mechanics for each alliance (A B C) and thus resembles the original game quite well?
    (you know, second and third gamethrough being different and all that)

    So much for not introducing anything new?
    Yeah, each Alliance has different mechanics to deal with on their platform.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I think you misunderstand what the robots are doing. They don't necessarily resemble the teaching of their names, in fact they resemble all that is wrong about it most of the time.
    The robots don't understand what they are "teaching" or "doing". That's part of the story.
    They are basically imitating something they know nothing about.
    At least they aren't trying to reproduce in XIV like they were in Automata.

  17. #47497
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I think you misunderstand what the robots are doing. They don't necessarily resemble the teaching of their names, in fact they resemble all that is wrong about it most of the time.
    And expressing that idea through their gameplay would have been a stroke of genius. You don't have to narrate or show in a video game, you can have players genuinely experience those ideas through the boss mechanics. I think an MMO where there a lots of other human players in the same encounter is the ideal genre for exploring ideas of Social Contracts, Divisions of Labour, Class Struggles and so on. You'd be hard pressed to think of a better place to implement them through gameplay.

    Rather than just express the themes and ideas you can have the players live them out through the encounter. That's an original idea that would only ever work in an MMO, a chance to do something amazing, memorable and unique that no other genre would be capable of. Not taking it is a huge wasted opportunity on Squenix's part in my opinion.

  18. #47498
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    And expressing that idea through their gameplay would have been a stroke of genius. You don't have to narrate or show in a video game, you can have players genuinely experience those ideas through the boss mechanics. I think an MMO where there a lots of other human players in the same encounter is the ideal genre for exploring ideas of Social Contracts, Divisions of Labour, Class Struggles and so on. You'd be hard pressed to think of a better place to implement them through gameplay.

    Rather than just express the themes and ideas you can have the players live them out through the encounter. That's an original idea that would only ever work in an MMO, a chance to do something amazing, memorable and unique that no other genre would be capable of. Not taking it is a huge wasted opportunity on Squenix's part in my opinion.
    Not sure how you would portray Social Contracts, Divisions of Labour, Class Struggles in an MMO that isn't already an inherent part of an MMO.

    Social contract - We come together with strangers to work towards a common goal through shared efforts.
    Divisions of Labour - The three alliances each have their own tasks to perform and each role has its own task to perform within the encounter.
    Class struggles - Well.... DPS queues vs Tank/Healer queues weighted against the ease of anonymity of DPS in an encounter versus the performance of tank & healer

    Those are already there in every encounter. Not sure how emphasizing it more would make it groundbreaking.

  19. #47499
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Not sure how you would portray Social Contracts, Divisions of Labour, Class Struggles in an MMO that isn't already an inherent part of an MMO.
    Without getting too deep into the philosophy, the idea of a Social Contract is that we give up some of our individual agency in order for a functional society. Hobbes' idea was that that the supreme authority you give that agency up to was a Monarch, but any kind of State Authority would do. And it's not wrong, people do give up freedoms for the safties that society offers.

    A boss that examines how much of your freedom as a player you're willing to give up in order for both your personal safety throughout the boss fight, and perhaps more importantly, how much of those freedoms you'd be willing to trust a complete stranger with (The Monarch in this example) would be a very different kind of boss encounter. And also perhaps an ideal testbed for Social Science experiments.

    How much of your characters agency would you be willing to give up in order to create a functioning raid group? You can't really examine that in a single player game, but an MMO where you're with complete strangers who might be willing to abuse the power other players invest in them, but that could have long lasting social consequences... Well, that's an interesting problem you can put into practice only in an MMO.

    Division of Labour isn't always directly dividing up people based on their job. Marx argued that some Division of Labour was a result of social control relating to Class and Hierarchy. I agree getting into the societal aspect would be difficult to put into a game, but sticking to the core of the argument even shaking up traditional job roles and asking players to specialise in something completely different (Perhaps a long assembly line of some sort) Would be a very different kind of labour division.

    Marx also argued that specialising in one part of production lead to poorer overall skills outside of that specialisation and boredom as a result of being stuck in one role. That's something that can be explored by pushing players outside of the boundries of their chosen Job roles.

    As for class struggles that one is perhaps the easiest to implement mechanically. Have what one role is doing negatively impact on what another role is doing. Tie it to their individual Job goals, so DPSing has some negative impact on Healers for example. Have tanks be able to exploit that division in some form, and you've created a scenario where players are, quite literally, struggling against players of another class. The fact you could experience this one directly through game play without even needing to window dress it makes me wonder why they didn't choose to go with it.

    Regardless, I've always been a fan of games that use their mechanics as metaphor. The chance to use mechanics as a metaphor for philosophical ideas delivered up through gameplay is an opportunity I don't think should be missed.

  20. #47500
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Live Letter LVI
    • over 18,000,000 adventurers world wide (accounts created? Korea and Chinese gamers tend to play at internet cafes, and they can buy subscription time that lasts a few hours, so I'm guessing there could be 18 million regular players. IDK)
    • Weekly loot cap on Eden wing 1 (E1 through E4) will be lifted in patch 5.18
    • 5.2 is called Echoes of a Fallen Star. They showed a screenshot of (5.1 MSQ spoilers) the character who looks like Ardbert (either another WoL or Elidibus possessing his body)
    • Only one dungeon will be added with every patch now.
    • Next beast tribe is the Qitari (Qiqirn on the First).
    • New side questline following (5.1 MSQ spoilers) Gaius in Garlemald. (Are you RPing as him or one of his followers?) (EDIT: Ooooo I'm guessing the Gaius storyline is going to be the Warring Triad/Four Lords of ShB, as he fights the Empire's weapons)
    • Ruby Weapon trial.
    • Also a new secret trial.
    • Eden wing 2.
    • New quest for upgradeable equipment. (I'm guessing this is going to be the ShB relic series, don't know if it's going to be another weapon). Story focused around the home of the Hrothgar (on the Source or the First?). Story will continue after 5.2.
    • Next phase of Ishgard restoration.
    • Diadem being reworked exclusively for crafters, don't need to worry about mobs now.
    • Leaderboards for crafters and more hardcore crafting content.
    • Skysteel tools: crafting tools that can be upgraded over multiple patches.
    • Ocean fishing: board a ship at specific times to fish on the high seas
    • New Leap of Faith jumping puzzles
    • Umbrellas
    • Soken came on stage, talked about Eorzean Symphony


    Q&A (featuring FFXIV composer Masayoshi Soken)
    • Soken's favorite ShB song is "Tomorrow and Tomorrow". He particularly loves the vocal part.
    • (It's mostly just the audience asking Soken questions. He gets his inspirations from anything. He sometimes thinks of a tune and whips out his smartphone to record it so he doesn't forget. Talking about how his mom and dad got him into music. Talking about how he made the theme for The Tempest)
    • Ishikawa approached Soken for the final area and final dungeon. Soken initially thought they wanted an epic orchestral piece, but Ishikawa wanted a quieter, more melancholic peace.
    • Yoshida initially didn't think that the Kholusia music fitted what was in his head, but Ishikawa resisted and stuck with it
    • For the Ultimate fights, Soken worked with the battle designers to time the music with the encounter.
    • Soken tried to differentiate the sound effects on the First from the Source. They wanted to balance it so that players who stayed in one area for too long wouldn't feel too uncomfortable or disturbed.

    Miscellaneous
    • Azys Lla orchestration coming in 5.2
    • 30% off sale on Mogstation items
    • Shadowbringers art book for $40, includes a Wind-up Dulia-Chai
    • FFXIV Mahjong set ($165 for the set, $62 for the mat)
    • Fanfest confirmed for 2020 and 2021

    Ended at 10:30 PM PST
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2019-12-14 at 06:30 AM.

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