1. #47561
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    That was over fifteen years ago. The Empire had more than enough time to have their agents infiltrate the city state armies, attain the status of a high ranking officer, and send key information back to Garlemald. They should know that Eorzea is pretty much completely defenseless against an air assault (unless mages can nuke their airships from the ground, which has yet to be demonstrated in the game).
    Not to mention that it wasn't Eorzean adventurers - guys carrying swords and spears around - that defeated them, it was dragons. Now they know full well that Midgardsormr is sitting "dead" in the lake now and that the dragons aren't going to be around to save the day anymore.

    There's never really a lot of explanation as to why Garlemald doesn't just continue to use their total air superiority to dominate everyone else. Other than it just not fitting well in the current plot and "Well, they're....busy...."

  2. #47562
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    That was over fifteen years ago. The Empire had more than enough time to have their agents infiltrate the city state armies, attain the status of a high ranking officer, and send key information back to Garlemald. They should know that Eorzea is pretty much completely defenseless against an air assault (unless mages can nuke their airships from the ground, which has yet to be demonstrated in the game).
    I'm really not sure why that needs to be demonstrated, it's magic, it goes wherever the mage wants it to. I'm sure the issue is simply range and power.

    A single mortal mage on the ground MIGHT be able to attack an airship but wtf is that really supposed to do against a giant airship specifically designed around decimating ground targets? The airship would barely even notice the attacks vs the mage getting absolutely ripped to shreds if they were even able to get a spell off before the airship hit them from outside of their range.

    Unless there was a large group of mages all attacking in unison I don't think they'd really even be a threat, but again, the range would come in to play.

    Think ground troops shooting at a high flying bomber with an RPG.....it's theoretically possible (as long as the RPG actually has teh range to even get that high), but not likely at all to be effective for a variety of reasons (aim, time to target to allow for dodging, ability of the bomber to decimate the ground target before they're even noticed, or before the RPG could possibly hit them, etc...).

  3. #47563
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    That was over fifteen years ago. The Empire had more than enough time to have their agents infiltrate the city state armies, attain the status of a high ranking officer, and send key information back to Garlemald. They should know that Eorzea is pretty much completely defenseless against an air assault (unless mages can nuke their airships from the ground, which has yet to be demonstrated in the game).
    Their forces were devastated, the entire fleet was completely wiped out at Silvertear, and they've fallen into two civil wars over those 15 years as well. Add that there are competing factions on how to approach conquering Eorzea and it stalls any serious efforts.

    And now the Eorzean Alliance arguably has the dragons as actual allies rather than acting on their own against the Garleans.

    Keep in mind, they had just concluded a war campaign in Ala Mhigo before trying to move into Eorzea.

    So you've actually got loss of forces in a war, complete annihilation of forces against the dragons, a period of recovery while Baelsar initiated his plan with Ultima weapon, two civil wars, and you've also got their resources spread thin trying to maintain control over Doma, Ala Mhigo, plus other occupied territories.

    It's not like they have infinite airships to just fly over everywhere and conquer it, then maintain control everywhere at all times.

    On top of all that, you've got the fact that the Garlean Empire controlling everything is not necessarily conducive to the Ascians plans. And they're pulling strings in Garlemald all this time as well.

    Perpetual war is more beneficial to the Ascians than a conquered world under Garlean rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Not to mention that it wasn't Eorzean adventurers - guys carrying swords and spears around - that defeated them, it was dragons. Now they know full well that Midgardsormr is sitting "dead" in the lake now and that the dragons aren't going to be around to save the day anymore.

    There's never really a lot of explanation as to why Garlemald doesn't just continue to use their total air superiority to dominate everyone else. Other than it just not fitting well in the current plot and "Well, they're....busy...."
    Midgarsormr took out their main ship, sure. But there's still a lot of dragons and they would be foolish to assume they're going to just let Garleans fly in and desecrate a revered region that's even more revered as Midgardsormr's resting place.

    On top of the reasons I've noted above. The Garleans don't have infinite airships that are instantaneously created. They've suffered countless set backs over the past 15 years.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2020-01-09 at 05:01 PM.

  4. #47564
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    On top of all that, you've got the fact that the Garlean Empire controlling everything is not necessarily conducive to the Ascians plans. And they're pulling strings in Garlemald all this time as well.

    Perpetual war is more beneficial to the Ascians than a conquered world under Garlean rule.
    This is really the only explanation that would seem to make sense when trying to explain how guys toting around swords and spears are continually ruining the military plans of a highly technologically advanced society like Garlemald. That the Ascians are somehow creating the political strife within their nation that keeps them from really focusing on crushing opposition.

    I would have totally bought this pre-Shadowbringers. Because it makes sense, really.

    But with the reveal of Black Rose, the intended use of it, everything we learned about G'raha Tia's future, the Rejoining, the founding and purpose of Garlemald and Allag, and so on...the idea that the Ascians want or need to have a stalemate on the Source seems to not make sense anymore. Indeed, it seems much the opposite. More like Garlemald languishing is greatly hampering their plans. It would seem much more likely that the Ascians would love for Garlemald to be dominant - or at least push them to pursue said dominance relentlessly - and more easily usher in the next calamity.

    At least they do address the problem of their air superiority once in SB, with Seiryu's Wall and the issue of fuel. So it's not totally ignored, just kinda on the back burner a lot.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2020-01-09 at 06:13 PM.

  5. #47565
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    At least they do address the problem of their air superiority once in SB, with Seiryu's Wall and the issue of fuel. So it's not totally ignored, just kinda on the back burner a lot.
    They also deploy airships to Ghimlyt, it's hard to say - canonically - what the current state is of the imperial castrums are in Eorzea, but I am guessing they chose that angle of attack for a reason.

  6. #47566
    One thing I never got an answer is why all the "powerful" characters speak ye olde english gov'na? Do they speak ye olde in German or French localisations aswell?
    They always told me I would miss my family... but I never miss from close range.

  7. #47567
    Is there any other way leveliing beyond level 20 than dungeons yet?

  8. #47568
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    This is really the only explanation that would seem to make sense when trying to explain how guys toting around swords and spears are continually ruining the military plans of a highly technologically advanced society like Garlemald. That the Ascians are somehow creating the political strife within their nation that keeps them from really focusing on crushing opposition.
    The Garleans use sword and spears as well, which further supports the notion they're limited on how much tech they can churn out. The fuel has always been an issue, mentioned as far back as ARR.

    And we've seen a single mage destroy a magitek armor. We've seen magitek armor's cannon fire blocked by a WHM's shield spell. Their advanced technology was a solution to the problem of being vastly outmatched by magic, which they are incapable of using. Their technology basically evens the playing field against armies wielding magic.

    But with the reveal of Black Rose, the intended use of it, everything we learned about G'raha Tia's future, the Rejoining, the founding and purpose of Garlemald and Allag, and so on...the idea that the Ascians want or need to have a stalemate on the Source seems to not make sense anymore. Indeed, it seems much the opposite. More like Garlemald languishing is greatly hampering their plans. It would seem much more likely that the Ascians would love for Garlemald to be dominant - or at least push them to pursue said dominance relentlessly - and more easily usher in the next calamity.
    Factors seem to be in flux a lot with their machinations on other realms dictating how they maneuver things on the Source. Who knows.

    At least they do address the problem of their air superiority once in SB, with Seiryu's Wall and the issue of fuel. So it's not totally ignored, just kinda on the back burner a lot.
    That was brought up in ARR with Ceruleum not being an abundant resource which fuels their magitek.

  9. #47569
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    The Garleans use sword and spears as well, which further supports the notion they're limited on how much tech they can churn out. The fuel has always been an issue, mentioned as far back as ARR.
    FFXII had the justification that while there is advanced technology like airships and shield generators, the medieval combat and lack of tanks is explained by the presence of ravenous mites which are attracted to and consume metal. Thus, heavy technology should be relegated to operation above the clouds where mites cannot reach (ie, airships).

    Given how unstoppable the Magitek Scorpions were depicted in the 3.5 ending, you'd think that automated, armored warfare would dominate battle. Then again, that portrayal is inconsistent with adventurers casually ripping them apart while strolling through dungeons.

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  10. #47570
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Given how unstoppable the Magitek Scorpions were depicted in the 3.5 ending, you'd think that automated, armored warfare would dominate battle. Then again, that portrayal is inconsistent with adventurers casually ripping them apart while strolling through dungeons.
    Yeah, it's just one of those things. Final Fantasy has always does this sort of anime "Swords vs. Technology" thing. Like Cloud fighting multiple machine-gun toting soldiers with just a sword. It has always been their style and it doesn't really have to make sense I suppose. We all clearly like it at least a little!

    When the plot demands it, the machines become the unstoppable machines of death that you'd expect. Like in 3.5, as you mentioned. Guys with swords and spears versus giant armored mechanical vehicles of war armed with rockets, explosives and flamethrowers(?) went exactly how you'd guess it would.

    And that's not even getting into, "What if they were flying?"

    But get the WoL involved and we can literally punch the machines with our magic fists if we want. We're just that badass.

  11. #47571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Given how unstoppable the Magitek Scorpions were depicted in the 3.5 ending, you'd think that automated, armored warfare would dominate battle. Then again, that portrayal is inconsistent with adventurers casually ripping them apart while strolling through dungeons.
    I hate the term "Adventurer". It just doesn't fit at all.
    If you compare our powerlevel to the average Eorzean, we're basically demigods.

    The weakness of the Garleans has always been the inability to use magic of any kind. Ceruleum technology leveled the playing field somewhat but you can imagine what lightning based magic does to most technology.

    Still, I agree with you that the Garleans wouldn't need Black Rose, if they'd to proper warfare against Eorza. It's also pretty hilarious that we managed to free Doma and Ala Mhigo. Even with the WoL, the garleans should be able to crush every uprising with pure military might and numbers.

    Oh well, every story requires suspension of disbelief.

  12. #47572
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Not to mention that it wasn't Eorzean adventurers - guys carrying swords and spears around - that defeated them, it was dragons. Now they know full well that Midgardsormr is sitting "dead" in the lake now and that the dragons aren't going to be around to save the day anymore.

    There's never really a lot of explanation as to why Garlemald doesn't just continue to use their total air superiority to dominate everyone else. Other than it just not fitting well in the current plot and "Well, they're....busy...."
    Garlemald is falling apart due to in-fighting and devolves into full scale civil war by the end of 5.1 with factions fighting one another for control after the Emperor's death.

    If you mean before ShB? I feel like people aren't giving magic and the Garleans' inability to not use it a huge pass here. As was mentioned just a few posts ago, Magic is overpowered as hell in FF14. Garlemald is a huge threat but its also a very slow moving creature that takes a long time to get its forces anywhere, which is why governors in places like Doma were needed. They can't just teleport their entire army across the world.
    Last edited by Yoshingo; 2020-01-10 at 05:11 AM.

  13. #47573
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Finished HW 3.0 in 7 hours 36 minutes.

    I should be able to do 3.1-3.55 in under 10 hours. There aren't 16 padded out quests every patch, so it should go faster. I wonder if I can beat all content up to the current patch before the 100 hour mark.

    Shadowbringers 5.0 ending spoilers AND Eden speculation

    Spoiler: 




    Huh, Hades looks reminiscent of Ascian Prime, most notably with the long arms and long claws. I guess that's the general look of empowered Ascians?

    I still don't understand why Emet was seemingly so much more powerful than Ascian Prime. Lahabrea should be slightly more powerful, as he absorbed another 1/14th of a soul in Igeyorhm.



    Now this is strange. At first, I thought that this was setting up the Ardbert, the First's fragment of The 14th Member of the Convocation/ The WoL, Hydaelyn's Champion with the Source's fragment, but then I remembered that Ardbert and the Source WoL together make up the same soul. Lahabrea was not sundered, and yet here he is, merging with the shard of a different soul. So apparently people with the Echo can merge with other souls, not just fragments of their own soul?

    If so, then I could see either Elidibus or Zenos gobbling up the soul fragments of the other Ascians. They're going to have be dealt with at some point. If you factor in the fact that there are 14 fragments (and discounting The WoL, Emet, Lahabrea, and Elidibus), you have 140 Ascian fragments to deal with. The WoL killed one fragment of Nabriales in 2.5 and the WoL just killed Igeyorhm. That leaves 138 Ascian fragments. Yes, Gaius was going around killing Ascians, but there is no indication that he was using Auracite to destroy their soul fragments. There were probably more than a few Ascian fragments who managed to get themselves perma killed over the thousands of years, but the fact remains that there are almost certainly far too many outstanding Ascian fragments than is feasible to be perma killed by the WoL. Auracite is incredibly the difficult to procure, and a situation like Nidhogg's Eye gobbling up an Ascian is unlikely to happen again, let alone 100 something times. Therefore, I surmise that the remaining fragments will probably be perma killed offscreen, either by Elidibus or Zenos, or possibly Zodiark.

    ... Unless Ascian fragments aren't innately evil? Emet said that they only go around, fetching Ascian fragments when their position needs to be filled. It could be that Ascian fragments are reincarnated and live normal lives up until Elidibus shows up and gives him his side of the story. The Oracle of Darkness could be an Ascian soul fragment. If we could show her the truth, and she decides to no longer serve Zodiark, then perhaps we won't need to deal with the dozens of remaining Ascian soul fragments at all.

    However, if the Ascians were tempered, then are the Ascian fragments unwittingly serving Zodiark, even without knowledge of their true origins? If so, then they will all have to be put down to keep them from resummoning Zodiark. Thus, they'll probably all die offscreen... unless Alisae manages to reverse tempering. In that case, that raises the logistical problems of trying to travel to the other seven remaining shards, track down Ascian soul fragments, and then untemper them. I don't think the story will be going to any other worlds besides the Source, the First, and the Thirteenth. Elidibus is already sending the WoL's remaining soul fragments towards him. Will the WoL be completely rejoined before 6.0? Or are they saving that as the ultimate, climatic powerup transformation for the ending?
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2020-01-10 at 05:56 AM.

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  14. #47574
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I hate the term "Adventurer". It just doesn't fit at all.
    If you compare our powerlevel to the average Eorzean, we're basically demigods.

    The weakness of the Garleans has always been the inability to use magic of any kind. Ceruleum technology leveled the playing field somewhat but you can imagine what lightning based magic does to most technology.

    Still, I agree with you that the Garleans wouldn't need Black Rose, if they'd to proper warfare against Eorza. It's also pretty hilarious that we managed to free Doma and Ala Mhigo. Even with the WoL, the garleans should be able to crush every uprising with pure military might and numbers.

    Oh well, every story requires suspension of disbelief.
    I'm sure it's a tough way to tell a story. You've got two sides locked in a war and then suddenly one side has Superman.

    It's likely also why our power seems inconsistent from time to time.

  15. #47575
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, it's just one of those things. Final Fantasy has always does this sort of anime "Swords vs. Technology" thing. Like Cloud fighting multiple machine-gun toting soldiers with just a sword. It has always been their style and it doesn't really have to make sense I suppose. We all clearly like it at least a little!
    Whoa, now, wait a minute. I would like to propose, for your consideration, the Buster Sword is actually a shield with a sharp edge. If he holds it in front of him, it protects his entire body from hair spike to foot!

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Still, I agree with you that the Garleans wouldn't need Black Rose, if they'd to proper warfare against Eorza. It's also pretty hilarious that we managed to free Doma and Ala Mhigo. Even with the WoL, the garleans should be able to crush every uprising with pure military might and numbers.
    Let's keep the sequence of events in mind, though.

    FFXIV - The Garlean fleet is obliterated at Silvertear prior to the start of the story. As a result, Baelsar begins his search for Ultima weapon while Nael was able to convince the Empire to implement the Dalamud Project. Rather than another failed invasion, the Dalamud Project was supposed to crush Eorzean resistance entirely. That not only failed by wiped out a massive number of Garlean forces when Bahamut raged across Carteneau.

    A Realm Reborn - Varis zos Galvus was already contesting the throne against his uncle. There was a power struggle within the Empire during the Eorzean campaign leading to the Emperor's death and Varis taking the throne.

    Heavensward - Varis is pursuing Allagan technology. Arguably this could be seen as a solution to Garlean power without needing Cerulean fueled magitek. Whatever the motivation, his focus and therefore the focus of the Empire is not currently on expanding their territories, nor does it necessarily mean they were focused on fortifying what they've conquered under his rule.

    As with most MMOs, we don't have a real sense of how much time is supposed to be passing from expansion to expansion, so the question is how much time passed in Heavensward.

    Even if it's a couple of years, that's not a lot of time to recover and with Varis not focused on reinforcing their territories, it allows Ala Mhigo and Doma to weaken their grasp before we start our coups.

    Then you've got Ascians behind the scenes puppeteering aspects of Garlemald during all this and they seem in direct opposition to what Varis wants to do. And of course you've got the full blown civil war now.

  16. #47576
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I'm sure it's a tough way to tell a story. You've got two sides locked in a war and then suddenly one side has Superman.

    It's likely also why our power seems inconsistent from time to time.
    I can accept the WoL casually smashing up Magitek Scorpions that would otherwise obliterate entire armies. The problem arises when you're doing it alongside three other players, and the narrative keeps insisting that their involvement as "your adventurer friends" is in fact canon, which implies that adventurers too can casually smash up Magitek Scorpions.

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  17. #47577
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I can accept the WoL casually smashing up Magitek Scorpions that would otherwise obliterate entire armies. The problem arises when you're doing it alongside three other players, and the narrative keeps insisting that their involvement as "your adventurer friends" is in fact canon, which implies that adventurers too can casually smash up Magitek Scorpions.
    I always just figure that the story treats "adventurers" kinda like the main character "martial artists" in Dragonball (especially DBZ onward) where even the weakest of them is basically a walking weapon of mass destruction.

    So I figure that even though the player might be analogous to Goku - being the strongest and bestest and such - there's still a handful of others that are also capable of feats far beyond those of mortal men. (We already see that out of the major NPCs as well, so why not, I figure.)

  18. #47578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Then you've got Ascians behind the scenes puppeteering aspects of Garlemald during all this and they seem in direct opposition to what Varis wants to do.
    Pretty sure that's the sole reason Eorzea hasn't been conquered.
    Asicans want chaos. Ideally, they WANT us to summon primals like crazy. A conquered and beaten Eorzea, integrated into Garlemald would not be useful in that sense at all.

    Still, I don't get it why the WOL gets to outlive so much crap and everyone suddenly proves incompetent at stopping her.
    How hard can it be for a sniper to put a piece of lead through Ifalnas head and be done with it?
    How hard could be for an Ascian to pose as a friendly WAR and lob off her head when she is in mid battle?

    Yeah I know, it's so we have a character to play and a story to follow but it just isn't very feasible and frankly put: I'm getting tired of cartoon like villains that seem invincible 90% of the story but always fumble in the critical moment so that the "good guy" can somehow win. That goes for pretty much all story telling done by man.

    Take the events of Shadowbringers for instance. If you ask me, what happened here should have cost Ifalna her life. Would I weep bitter tears and never touch Final Fantasy again? Most likely (well... definitely, considering how much I love my lil' Ifalna ^^) but going out in a blaze of glory would be Ifalna's style.

    Not having any lasting consequences to her after such an ordeal seems kind of lame. (I really enjoyed the changed victory animation and how tired, beaten and depressed she was directly afterwards, I also cried when Feo'ul was basically panicking because Ifalnas soul started to splinter under all that pressure) Now we're back to "adventuring facerolling and having fun" again.

  19. #47579
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Take the events of Shadowbringers for instance. If you ask me, what happened here should have cost Ifalna her life. Would I weep bitter tears and never touch Final Fantasy again? Most likely (well... definitely, considering how much I love my lil' Ifalna ^^) but going out in a blaze of glory would be Ifalna's style.

    Not having any lasting consequences to her after such an ordeal seems kind of lame. (I really enjoyed the changed victory animation and how tired, beaten and depressed she was directly afterwards, I also cried when Feo'ul was basically panicking because Ifalnas soul started to splinter under all that pressure) Now we're back to "adventuring facerolling and having fun" again.
    Yeah, that has always been a weak point of MMO storytelling to me. Gameplay and Storytelling are constantly at odds with one another.

    You can't have much in the way of lasting effects. The protagonist can't exactly go and die or become handicapped or be taken out of action in some way because I have a raid in an hour and my friends need me or I need to cap tomes tonight. The major cities and places can't just up and disappear or be damaged because I need to sell some stuff I crafted and buy some consumables. Zones and scenery can't just go changing constantly because of developer time and phasing (if it exists in a game) or other player experience consistency issues.

    Ultimately, the player has to win AND be free to carry on playing the game normally afterward. So the guaranteed outcome of every single story arc has to inevitably be a flawless victory on the part of the player.

    I think I really started to notice this concept in WotLK in WoW, and it really became clear to me in WoD. There's always this massive, world-ending threat that...does nothing in the end. Especially the Iron Horde, we show up on their world and just waltz right in with a small group and they just never do a thing. They can't even burn a village in retaliation or something. Once we're there, we're just the dominant force on the entire fucking planet.

    The only time I've ever seen an MMO really make me feel like, "Shit just got real." was the post-ARR stuff right at the end and much of the beginning of HW. It really made me feel like my enemies actually affected me, that my situation in-game really was different in some way. (Although there remains the small question of how some random putz Brass Blades were actually an existential threat to the assembled host of demigods in attendance at the time, but hey, lets not think about it too hard!)
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2020-01-11 at 03:58 PM.

  20. #47580
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The major cities and places can't just up and disappear or be damaged because I need to sell some stuff I crafted and buy some consumables. Zones and scenery can't just go changing constantly because of developer time and phasing (if it exists in a game) or other player experience consistency issues.

    The only time I've ever seen an MMO really make me feel like, "Shit just got real." was the post-ARR stuff right at the end and much of the beginning of HW.
    I think WoW has proven with Darnassus that it can indeed be done.
    The problem is, as you already state, DEV effort. It just doesn't seem to be feasible to follow through to the end, incl. recouping, building them NE's a new city etc.

    Absolutely but why did you feel that way? Because NPCs were threatened. NPCs we came to care about. That's basically the only thing left to an MMO, since they can't ever actually harm the player character. In that regard, SE did a wonderful job in ShB so far. I just wish there would be consequences for Ifalna. E.g. psychological scars or anything to indicate that it was actually quite horrible what she had to go through. Imho more so than the usual horrors of war my little kitten has to witness on a daily basis.

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