1. #47901
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    You have to double weave them if you do not want to waste stacks.
    Sometimes it works w/o delay, sometimes it does not. Depending on server mood.

    You can circumvent double weaving if you keep their stacks asynchronous.
    or have both on cd and weave one between each

  2. #47902
    Hello kind strangers,

    Yesterday i got the title "Shadowbringers", which is a huge feat considering the fact that it took me nearly 8 months. Some times i didn't like the game but the story was really great and this comes from a guy who never really cared about the story in any other game so far, with the the exception of WC3 roc & tft times and the Max Payne one. I am more of the gameplay type of gamer.

    Anyway, i hope i didn't bore you with my intro.

    I am hoping that the endgame is as satisfying as the ladder that i had to climb since lvl 1. Should i stick with my White Mage or Should i start leveling a new class. Tbh, i am kind of tired of healing and i would prefer to start tanking, i really liked tanking during MoP (in WoW) but i have not really tried it again in WoW or in any other game.

    What are your general suggestions from now on.

    Thanks in advance for you answers.

  3. #47903
    Bloodsail Admiral Dugna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Internet
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by ek0zu View Post
    Hello kind strangers,

    Yesterday i got the title "Shadowbringers", which is a huge feat considering the fact that it took me nearly 8 months. Some times i didn't like the game but the story was really great and this comes from a guy who never really cared about the story in any other game so far, with the the exception of WC3 roc & tft times and the Max Payne one. I am more of the gameplay type of gamer.

    Anyway, i hope i didn't bore you with my intro.

    I am hoping that the endgame is as satisfying as the ladder that i had to climb since lvl 1. Should i stick with my White Mage or Should i start leveling a new class. Tbh, i am kind of tired of healing and i would prefer to start tanking, i really liked tanking during MoP (in WoW) but i have not really tried it again in WoW or in any other game.

    What are your general suggestions from now on.

    Thanks in advance for you answers.
    I'd recommend just finishing the lvling with WHM because once you get lvl 80 you get a bonus to your exp from lvl 1-80 then from there just do a daily rou as you continue the story as WHM or if you really don't feel like it you can just buy a lvl skip potion.

  4. #47904
    Pandaren Monk The Casualty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    1,937
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    You have to double weave them if you do not want to waste stacks.
    Sometimes it works w/o delay, sometimes it does not. Depending on server mood.

    You can circumvent double weaving if you keep their stacks asynchronous.
    The GCD for Autocrossbow and Heat Blast is 1.5 seconds and is not affected by skill speed. You need to fit in 5 during every Hypercharge which lasts 8 seconds, giving you 0.5 of wiggle room.

    It is not possible with a GCD that low and animation locks to double weave without clipping into the next GCD, regardless of ping. If you try, you will end up losing out on a Heat Blast/Autocrossbow use.

    Because you can stack up to 3 charges, and like you said, keeping stacks asynchronous by alternating their use during the Hypercharge window, you can avoid overcapping.

    https://imgshare.io/image/shb-mch-general-purpose.ZC11n

  5. #47905
    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    The GCD for Autocrossbow and Heat Blast is 1.5 seconds and is not affected by skill speed. You need to fit in 5 during every Hypercharge which lasts 8 seconds, giving you 0.5 of wiggle room.

    It is not possible with a GCD that low and animation locks to double weave without clipping into the next GCD, regardless of ping. If you try, you will end up losing out on a Heat Blast/Autocrossbow use.

    Because you can stack up to 3 charges, and like you said, keeping stacks asynchronous by alternating their use during the Hypercharge window, you can avoid overcapping.

    https://imgshare.io/image/shb-mch-general-purpose.ZC11n
    Thanks for the info, I thought I was doing something wrong!

    I was under the impression that's where the double weaving was supposed to happen, but that's actually the only window where it's not (when you have both available anyway)...that makes things SO much easier.

  6. #47906
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,522
    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    The GCD for Autocrossbow and Heat Blast is 1.5 seconds and is not affected by skill speed. You need to fit in 5 during every Hypercharge which lasts 8 seconds, giving you 0.5 of wiggle room.

    It is not possible with a GCD that low and animation locks to double weave without clipping into the next GCD, regardless of ping.
    Makes sense, thanks for the math.
    I never tried hard, because MCH is one of the classes I level and then put aside.

  7. #47907
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Makes sense, thanks for the math.
    I never tried hard, because MCH is one of the classes I level and then put aside.
    I don't double weave my MCH ACB/HB and I never cap out either oGCD, you have 3, there's a lot of leeway there as long as you go in with them on CD.

  8. #47908
    Scarab Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Divinity's Reach
    Posts
    4,341
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    I'd recommend just finishing the lvling with WHM because once you get lvl 80 you get a bonus to your exp from lvl 1-80 then from there just do a daily rou as you continue the story as WHM or if you really don't feel like it you can just buy a lvl skip potion.
    The armoury bonus doesn't require a lvl 80, it simply requires you to be on a job lower than your current highest. Have an 80 would just mean that the armoury bonus is always in effect.

  9. #47909
    Bloodsail Admiral Dugna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Internet
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    The armoury bonus doesn't require a lvl 80, it simply requires you to be on a job lower than your current highest. Have an 80 would just mean that the armoury bonus is always in effect.
    which would make lvling that job to 80 faster, its faster to just finish lvling to 80 then start from 1 and try to catch up and do MSQ more. Unless you want to just do POTD/HoH for like a day straight with no wipes at all. SHB still doesn't have a POTD/HoH so going from 70-80 normally still takes a bit of a grind. Better to have that bonus % for that second job then lvl two jobs side to side.

  10. #47910
    Scarab Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Divinity's Reach
    Posts
    4,341
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    which would make lvling that job to 80 faster, its faster to just finish lvling to 80 then start from 1 and try to catch up and do MSQ more. Unless you want to just do POTD/HoH for like a day straight with no wipes at all. SHB still doesn't have a POTD/HoH so going from 70-80 normally still takes a bit of a grind. Better to have that bonus % for that second job then lvl two jobs side to side.
    True but if they're getting bored of playing a healer, then forcing yourself to continue to 80 for armoury bonus isn't worth it, especially if you're not enjoying yourself. Plus they said they wanted to play tank, and tank queues have mostly gone back to being instant, so they'll have the luxury of spamming dungeons.

  11. #47911
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You'd be surprised. Because of how powerful heals are and how infrequent mechanics occur, most vuln stacks are irrelevant. Take E6S for example, the common static strat for soccer is to just eat the vuln stack and keep uptime. Pugs are slowly switching to it as well. There's no real incoming damage afterwards so the vuln stack is trivial. I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head, but I do very much so remember doing it in the past. This is during prog, not even farm. It becomes even more common during farm.
    Hades EX is like that; for the falling pancakes people just stack mid and eat 2 vulns.

    Our crew adopted that strat for E6S and it's hilarious how much easier it is to do that vs. look for the safe spot and call it out quick enough for people to move.

  12. #47912
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,522
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Hades EX is like that; for the falling pancakes people just stack mid and eat 2 vulns.
    Easily done in that encounter because there is close to no incoming damage after that.

  13. #47913
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    12,410
    The hypocritical message of Shadowbringers

    Spoilers for 5.0

    Spoiler: 


    In the story of Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers, the main antagonist, Emet-Selch, is one of the last survivors of your usual JRPG ancient precursor civilization. Due to a calamity, almost the entire previous ancient civilization was wiped out, and the world irreparably damaged. To undo the damage and create world in which life can prosper once again, most of the people of the ancient civilization sacrificed themselves to stop and undo the destruction wrought by the calamity. For obvious reasons, the antagonist, Emet-Selch, feels deep trauma from having lost his friends, his family, nearly his entire people, and wants to bring them back. In Shadowbringers, Emet-Selch is trying to resurrect his dead people by creating another calamity that will sacrifice the lives the current civilization, the humanity that arose in the wake of the calamity thanks to the sacrifice of the ancients. (Also, BTW, Emet-Selch has no proof that this plan will actually work: he's going to kill billions of people - and has been killing billions of people - on the HOPE that this will all work out in the end).

    Also, the game goes out of its way to point out that the ancient precursor civilization was "objectively" better than modern humanity. Ancient humanity was blessed with gifts and abilities modern humanity does not have, and the people of the ancient civilization were so selfless and goodhearted, it'd be ridiculous to imagine humanity today being like them. Emet-Selch to the protagonist: "Do you seriously expect half of your mankind to sacrifice themselves for the other? Ofcourse they would not!". Thus, Emet argues that the old mankind is more worthy of the sacrifices of the new mankind than the new mankind is worthy of the sacrifices of the old mankind.

    So, TL;DR: Emet-Selch has a tragic backstory, wants to resurrect his people. The method in which he would try to resurrect his people involves the arbitray mass murder of modern life (by sacrificing them to bring back the old). Also, by his standards, the old mankind is "objectively" better than the new mankind, and thus we should erase modern life to bring back the old.


    In the same story, we have a heroic character, G'raha Tia, born as apart of modern day humanity. Earlier in FFXIV, G'raha Tia kinda sacrificed himself and went into stasis to preserve mankind from other existential threats I won't get into here. G'raha Tia wakes up in the future, several hundreds years after the story of Shadowbringers takes place. In the future, he finds out that Emet-Selch succeeded in his plan in Shadowbringers, and killed off a huge swath of the modern day humanity. Pretty much every character we met in FFXIV died in this calamity, including the protagonists. In the wake of this new calamity, another form of "humanity" arose. "the rule of law gave way to the rule of might, creating a world of ceaseless war". So basically, the FFXIV world went from something we IRL would consider to be "normal" to what we typically envision as post-nuclear apoclaypse anarchic wasteland. The new state of the world, the "new mankind", is objectively worse than what had come before.

    Horrified by this new world, G'raha Tia sets out to try to bring back the old mankind, the world - the mankind - of the current FFXIV story. G'raha Tia travels back in time, back to the current FFXIV story, to change the timeline by stopping Emet-Selch from sacrificing the current humanity. If G'raha Tia suceeds, the so called "bad future" will be undone, and the current humanity will continue on as usual. (BTW: when G'raha Tia began planning to go back in time, went back in time, and began trying to change the timeline, he had no proof that this plan would actually work at all. He even half suspected that he'd create a time paradox and accomplish nothing. He went through a herculean amount of effort on the HOPE that this would all work out in the end).

    So, TL;DR: G'raha Tia has a tragic backstory, wants to resurrect his people. The method in which he would try to resurrect his people involves the arbitray mass murder of modern life (by changing the timeline so that the people of the Age of Might would never be born, effectively killing them). Also, by his standards, the old mankind is "objectively" better than the new mankind, and thus we should erase modern life to bring back the old.

    Wait a minute... I smell something fishy here. Emet-Selch and G'raha Tia have the exact same backstory! They both survived an apoclaypse in which their humanity perished, witnessed a new, horrifyingly "inferior" successor mankind arise, and then set out to erase the new mankind to bring back the prior mankind. Why then, is Emet-Selch depicted as the villain, while G'raha Tia is depicted as the hero? If G'raha Tia is to be praised for his actions - trying to create an objectively better world - then shouldn't Emet-Selch be as well? Or, if Emet-Selch is supposed to be evil for trying to wipe people out to bring back the dead, then shouldn't G'raha Tia be depicted as evil for trying to do the same?

    Ofcourse, the writers don't seem interested in dealing with this issue. At the end of Shadowbringers, the heroes kill Emet-Selch, and the current mankind is saved... except G'raha Tia is still around, so it seems no time paradox has occured. Maybe... the old timeline - the humanity of the Age of Might - is still alive? Keyword: Maybe. Remember, G'raha Tia had absolutely no idea this would work out, and had every reason to believe that either 1. the timeline wouldn't have been changed at all or 2. he succeeded changing history, preventing the Age of Might from happening and erasing all of those people in it (except him in the new future... time travel logic doesn't hold up so just go with G'raha Tia being the exception). Perhaps the writers expected us to sympathize with G'raha Tia over Emet-Selch because the mankind G'raha Tia intends to wipe an entire world out for is OUR MANKIND, the people we know from the current FFXIV story? Ah, so it's okay for us to wipe out entire civilizations as long as it's not the protagonist's civilization? That... makes us no better than Emet-Selch.

    Oh don't get me wrong. Shadowbringers is a heartbreaking, yet inspirational story. However, the more I've thought about it, the more I go - EXCUSE ME?!?!? Though, I gotta give the writer's props: at least their contradictory message isn't anywhere near as overt as that of Ao no Kiseki's (oh boy... spoilers for that game, obviously)

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - Druid / Steam / MyAnimeList / IMDB - - - - - - - - - - - -

  14. #47914
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The hypocritical message of Shadowbringers

    Spoilers for 5.0

    Spoiler: 


    In the story of Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers, the main antagonist, Emet-Selch, is one of the last survivors of your usual JRPG ancient precursor civilization. Due to a calamity, almost the entire previous ancient civilization was wiped out, and the world irreparably damaged. To undo the damage and create world in which life can prosper once again, most of the people of the ancient civilization sacrificed themselves to stop and undo the destruction wrought by the calamity. For obvious reasons, the antagonist, Emet-Selch, feels deep trauma from having lost his friends, his family, nearly his entire people, and wants to bring them back. In Shadowbringers, Emet-Selch is trying to resurrect his dead people by creating another calamity that will sacrifice the lives the current civilization, the humanity that arose in the wake of the calamity thanks to the sacrifice of the ancients. (Also, BTW, Emet-Selch has no proof that this plan will actually work: he's going to kill billions of people - and has been killing billions of people - on the HOPE that this will all work out in the end).

    Also, the game goes out of its way to point out that the ancient precursor civilization was "objectively" better than modern humanity. Ancient humanity was blessed with gifts and abilities modern humanity does not have, and the people of the ancient civilization were so selfless and goodhearted, it'd be ridiculous to imagine humanity today being like them. Emet-Selch to the protagonist: "Do you seriously expect half of your mankind to sacrifice themselves for the other? Ofcourse they would not!". Thus, Emet argues that the old mankind is more worthy of the sacrifices of the new mankind than the new mankind is worthy of the sacrifices of the old mankind.

    So, TL;DR: Emet-Selch has a tragic backstory, wants to resurrect his people. The method in which he would try to resurrect his people involves the arbitray mass murder of modern life (by sacrificing them to bring back the old). Also, by his standards, the old mankind is "objectively" better than the new mankind, and thus we should erase modern life to bring back the old.


    In the same story, we have a heroic character, G'raha Tia, born as apart of modern day humanity. Earlier in FFXIV, G'raha Tia kinda sacrificed himself and went into stasis to preserve mankind from other existential threats I won't get into here. G'raha Tia wakes up in the future, several hundreds years after the story of Shadowbringers takes place. In the future, he finds out that Emet-Selch succeeded in his plan in Shadowbringers, and killed off a huge swath of the modern day humanity. Pretty much every character we met in FFXIV died in this calamity, including the protagonists. In the wake of this new calamity, another form of "humanity" arose. "the rule of law gave way to the rule of might, creating a world of ceaseless war". So basically, the FFXIV world went from something we IRL would consider to be "normal" to what we typically envision as post-nuclear apoclaypse anarchic wasteland. The new state of the world, the "new mankind", is objectively worse than what had come before.

    Horrified by this new world, G'raha Tia sets out to try to bring back the old mankind, the world - the mankind - of the current FFXIV story. G'raha Tia travels back in time, back to the current FFXIV story, to change the timeline by stopping Emet-Selch from sacrificing the current humanity. If G'raha Tia suceeds, the so called "bad future" will be undone, and the current humanity will continue on as usual. (BTW: when G'raha Tia began planning to go back in time, went back in time, and began trying to change the timeline, he had no proof that this plan would actually work at all. He even half suspected that he'd create a time paradox and accomplish nothing. He went through a herculean amount of effort on the HOPE that this would all work out in the end).

    So, TL;DR: G'raha Tia has a tragic backstory, wants to resurrect his people. The method in which he would try to resurrect his people involves the arbitray mass murder of modern life (by changing the timeline so that the people of the Age of Might would never be born, effectively killing them). Also, by his standards, the old mankind is "objectively" better than the new mankind, and thus we should erase modern life to bring back the old.

    Wait a minute... I smell something fishy here. Emet-Selch and G'raha Tia have the exact same backstory! They both survived an apoclaypse in which their humanity perished, witnessed a new, horrifyingly "inferior" successor mankind arise, and then set out to erase the new mankind to bring back the prior mankind. Why then, is Emet-Selch depicted as the villain, while G'raha Tia is depicted as the hero? If G'raha Tia is to be praised for his actions - trying to create an objectively better world - then shouldn't Emet-Selch be as well? Or, if Emet-Selch is supposed to be evil for trying to wipe people out to bring back the dead, then shouldn't G'raha Tia be depicted as evil for trying to do the same?

    Ofcourse, the writers don't seem interested in dealing with this issue. At the end of Shadowbringers, the heroes kill Emet-Selch, and the current mankind is saved... except G'raha Tia is still around, so it seems no time paradox has occured. Maybe... the old timeline - the humanity of the Age of Might - is still alive? Keyword: Maybe. Remember, G'raha Tia had absolutely no idea this would work out, and had every reason to believe that either 1. the timeline wouldn't have been changed at all or 2. he succeeded changing history, preventing the Age of Might from happening and erasing all of those people in it (except him in the new future... time travel logic doesn't hold up so just go with G'raha Tia being the exception). Perhaps the writers expected us to sympathize with G'raha Tia over Emet-Selch because the mankind G'raha Tia intends to wipe an entire world out for is OUR MANKIND, the people we know from the current FFXIV story? Ah, so it's okay for us to wipe out entire civilizations as long as it's not the protagonist's civilization? That... makes us no better than Emet-Selch.

    Oh don't get me wrong. Shadowbringers is a heartbreaking, yet inspirational story. However, the more I've thought about it, the more I go - EXCUSE ME?!?!? Though, I gotta give the writer's props: at least their contradictory message isn't anywhere near as overt as that of Ao no Kiseki's (oh boy... spoilers for that game, obviously)
    I think thats kind of the point. Its meant to be hypocritical and that puts us the player character and emet slech on equal footing. We are both doing the same shit for our own people and neither can back down. We completely understand the other but the only difference is to save whats still around rather than accept its already gone which has us stuck in the middle between the other two.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  15. #47915
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    12,410
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    I think thats kind of the point. Its meant to be hypocritical and that puts us the player character and emet slech on equal footing. We are both doing the same shit for our own people and neither can back down. We completely understand the other but the only difference is to save whats still around rather than accept its already gone which has us stuck in the middle between the other two.
    Hm... could make for an interesting scene if Elidibus found out about the Exarch. Not sure if the writers could justify it, though, as Elidibus seems pragmatic enough that the moment he found out, he'd just teleport away and use his immortality to begin working on that plan, out of reach of the protagonists. I'm worried that they're just going to skim over the implications of the alternate timeline, though, and just save it for a throwaway "dark future" raid where you just fight cool bosses for the sake of it, rather than actually exploring any of this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also interesting is how the Ironworks, a small rag tag bunch (from what we've seen, pre calamity it was a very small company, just Cid, Biggs, Wedge, Jessie, and a handful of technicians. Post calamity, there wouldn't be any engineering schools and the Ironworks would only find a handful of people idealistic enough to join their cause, what with it being as hard as it is to survive the post apocalypse with everybody starving and killing each other for resources) managed to accomplish in a few hundred years what the Ascians have been struggling to accomplish over tens of thousands. Even more interesting, is the method with which it was done: the Ironworks succeeded by building a machine, a machine built by the contributions of many people working together, whereas the Ascian's method is to manipulate people into killing each other and sacrificing the rest as an energy source. I guess the moral of the story is: the power of friendship can accomplish anything? Well, it's a JRPG/anime. Ofcourse that's going to be a theme.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2020-03-25 at 08:40 PM.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - Druid / Steam / MyAnimeList / IMDB - - - - - - - - - - - -

  16. #47916
    Keyboard Turner
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Eorzea
    Posts
    3
    We don't have any proof Emet-Selch was even telling the truth. We don't even have proof if *he* knew if he was even telling the truth or not. The only truth about Emet-Selch we know for certain is he was tempered. A simple detail that makes all his motivation and "history" dubiously suspect.

  17. #47917
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you.
    Posts
    1,486
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The hypocritical message of Shadowbringers
    Spoilers for 5.0 I guess.

    I don't think the writers are being hypocrites, the parallels are clear and there by design. If some people are treating you like a hero is the people who have a vested interest in your success, as it generally means they won't die. The people who treat you like a villain are those who have an interest in your failure to further their own plans. There's no narrator implying yours is the absolute truth and if anything the rest of the party shows their doubts over what's happening as they learn more about the ascians and make their way through Amaurot. The last conversation you have as a group is for them to reaffirm their convictions despite that lingering doubt, and in the last interactions with Emet they even agree, maybe humanity isn't as selfless as the Ascians once were but it is still their lives and they won't give up on them.

    Emet in the end summarizes how the conflict will be perceived by the future: "The victor shall write the tale, and the vanquished become its villain." That wasn't just an edgy line thrown there by the writers to make him seem cool, no, after all the dialog that precedes it it accentuates how after both sides have made their arguments the only way to decide who will be considered good is who wins because they both have merit, Emet confirms it in his last words. The writers never mean for you to think things are just black and white.

    However I have to disagree that just because there's parallels between their actions it means G'raha and Emet are exactly the same. For starters G'raha is not committing genocide on a global scale, he's preventing it. The future G'raha comes from becomes that way because Emet destroys the First and inflicts a Calamity upon the Source. Humanity didn't get together and decided to cause a Calamity on themselves. On the other hand the ascians did get together and decided to summon Zodiark and then Hydaelyn. G'raha is fixing a problem that was cast upon humanity by someone else, while the ascians' wound is self inflicted even if they didn't mean it to be that way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    the Ironworks succeeded by building a machine, a machine built by the contributions of many people working together, whereas the Ascian's method is to manipulate people into killing each other and sacrificing the rest as an energy source. I guess the moral of the story is: the power of friendship can accomplish anything? Well, it's a JRPG/anime. Ofcourse that's going to be a theme.
    Well also the ascians are immortal beings. Interacting with them through Amaurot they seemed to approach issues very differently and almost entirely rely on creation magic until they got hit by the End of the Days, which they tried to fix also with creation magic. Mortals have limited lifespans and have to make do with a lot of nonsense to achieve their goals instead of spending and eternity just making things real with thoughts and magic. Then you add that the ascians are tempered so that could be messing with their normal thought process and it makes sense humanity might be more craftier after generations of research put together.
    Last edited by Hyral; 2020-03-25 at 10:39 PM.
    "I have the most loyal fanboys. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand by Thoradin's Wall and massacre my own people and I wouldn't lose any fanboys. It's like incredible." - Sylvanas Windrunner

    "If you kill your enemies, they win." - Anduin Wrynn

  18. #47918
    They've toyed with the "two sides to a situation" a few times now. While they didn't delve into it story wise in Stormblood, Revelutions has the lyrics:

    Soft is the breeze that can set a petal free
    And yet 'tis the storm that doth see the petal soar
    High o'er the trees in the throes of Liberty
    'Til unstirring skies consign her to memory

    One kingdom's fall is another kingdom's freedom
    One sovereign's war is another sovereign's peace
    One mother's pride is another mother's sorrow
    Their tears both soak the land that they love


    As for Shadowbringers,

    Spoiler: 
    A friend of mine pointed out that the music that plays in Crystarium after finishing the 5.0 MSQ, Tomorrow and Tomorrow.... is about Emet Selch, the weight he carried, and all he truly wanted in the end.

    For whom weeps the storm
    Her tears on our skin
    The days of our years gone
    Our souls soaked in sin
    These memories ache with the weight of tomorrow


    Basically about the plight of the Ascians losing everything, their time passed as their world destroyed and those memories weigh on them, and Emet-Selch, as they carry on into each new day basically for eternity. Even souls soaked in sin suggests the stain of the deaths they've viewed as necessary.

    Who fights?
    Who flies?
    Who falls?


    Fairly straightforward... who lives and dies through time.

    Stand tall my friend
    May all of the dark lost inside you find light again
    In time tumbling turning we seek amends
    Eternal winds to the land descend
    Our journey will never end


    This seems from the WoL to Emet-Selch. Emet is the one being told to stand tall, hoping the light can be found inside him. "Our journey will never end" referring to the WoL carrying Emet-Selch with him in memory.

    From those who've fallen to those who rise
    A prayer to keep us ever by your side
    An undying promise that we just might
    Carry on
    In a song

    Pray don't forget us
    Your bygone kin
    With one world's end
    Does a new begin
    And should our souls scatter
    Unto the wind
    Still we shall live on


    Again, for those who've fallen (Emet-Selch) to those who rise (Warrior of Light), a prayer to keep us (the Ascians) by your side ("remember us"), and the "undying promise that we just might carry on in a song" is again the plea to remember them. To remember that they lived rather than be forgotten to the sands of time. That's further with the "pray don't forget us your bygone kin" as the WoL is one of them as well. One world's end, the Sundering, caused the beginning of the new world and that's the world the WoL fights for. And even if the Ascians are defeated, they'll live on so long as they're remembered.

    It strikes me as accepting mortality and not being forgotten by those who live on, which Emet-Selch seems to accept in the very end with those "remember us" lines.

    Then the lyric refrain is slightly changed for the final verse:

    Stand tall my friend
    May all of the dark deep inside you find light again
    This time tumbling turning we make amends
    The eternal winds throughout the land ascend
    Here to lift us that we won't end


    It's still wishing for the dark deep within Emet to find light again, but now it says "we make amends" rather than seeking amends and the eternal winds ascend, lifting them up, rather than descending on the lands "that we won't end" as if making that promise that the Ascians and their plight and history won't be forgotten.


    For that matter, I feel like "Shadowbringers" has a lot of insight to the themes of the story.

    One brings shadow, one brings light
    Two-toned echoes tumbling through time
    Threescore wasted, ten cast aside
    Four-fold knowing, no end in sight
    One brings shadow, one brings light
    One dark future no one survives
    On their shadows, away we fly


    "One dark future no one survives" is what G'raha is trying to prevent. It's not that a new humanity arose, it's that what's left after the calamity is an unsustainable future that's doomed to collapse, leaving nothing in the end. At least from what they're able to see. Arguably, the Ascians in that future just see it as one genocide of many still to come to obliterate all life and (theoretically) revive their race. But that's kind of the real rub... there's nothing to really indicate that a complete rejoining to the Source would restore the Ascians either. Maybe the dozen of them who weren't sundered would be, but that's an argument for the eradication of the countless many for the needs of the minute few.

    There's a lot more in the song's lyrics about the conflict and the opposing views and what is ultimately being fought to prevent in the future G'raha has returned from. I'd even say there's a little bit of a hint, in hindsight, of the WoL and Emet-Selch being more "one and the same" than it first seemed.

  19. #47919
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    18,522
    But that's kind of the real rub... there's nothing to really indicate that a complete rejoining to the Source would restore the Ascians either. Maybe the dozen of them who weren't sundered would be, but that's an argument for the eradication of the countless many for the needs of the minute few.
    Ascians use creation magic.
    Right now, as far as I gather, their ability to use it is severely limited, because they are cut off from the source due to the splintering of worlds.

    If all worlds were rejoined, they'd regain their full power and could just re-create their civilization ... for real, instead of an echo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Also interesting is how the Ironworks, a small rag tag bunch (from what we've seen, pre calamity it was a very small company, just Cid, Biggs, Wedge, Jessie, and a handful of technicians. Post calamity, there wouldn't be any engineering schools and the Ironworks would only find a handful of people idealistic enough to join their cause, what with it being as hard as it is to survive the post apocalypse with everybody starving and killing each other for resources) managed to accomplish in a few hundred years what the Ascians have been struggling to accomplish over tens of thousands.
    They only managed that because they had access to Alexander and Omega. We still don't know they came from.

    Also, keep in mind, that humans thought processes are radically different from the Ascians. We face "unsolvable" problems pretty much every day and are forced to be creative.
    The Ascians had the luxury of "fixing" everything with their uber powerful creation magic for what seems to be a small eternity. You see that their society was driven by conformity. Expression of unique Ideas wasn't exactly encouraged, so their ability to think "out of the box" was probably quite limited.

  20. #47920
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Ascians use creation magic.
    Right now, as far as I gather, their ability to use it is severely limited, because they are cut off from the source due to the splintering of worlds.

    If all worlds were rejoined, they'd regain their full power and could just re-create their civilization ... for real, instead of an echo.
    Also true....in their theory.

    Again, it's arguably a hypothesis they're working from and just expecting it will ultimately work.

    Whether or not Ascians could creation magic Ascians and still be as they were, who knows. Wasn't their creation having a soul an unforeseen and unexpected thing in the case of the Phoenix they created?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •