1. #48301
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasuuna View Post
    Its not as bad as you think for healers since we typically weave between casts and have plenty of time to click around the party.
    This.
    The game has a 2.5s GCD. More than enough time to switch targets.

  2. #48302
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The lack of well functioning mouse over macros is huge negative for me. Especially for jobs where they want you to cast abilities on your allies, not only healers, but Tanks with Shirk, Dragoons with their eyes etc.

    Sure, the UI looks smooth and stylish. But I'd argue that it's a complete and utter failure at being a UI. A UI is designed to display information in a usable fashion.
    Good UI design actually calls for both form and function so your definition doesn't give credit there when it should. Now mind you I agree. I'm not a huge fan of the UI in general (mostly due to the overuse of prohibitive menus). The combat UI isn't bad, it just isn't good. It's perfectly functional and perfectly stylish.

    Mouseover macros is a huge negative agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Well, I consider this to be free reign to give you the whole list. So here are the relevant combat changes I'd like to make;
    • Split the party frames up into a 2x4 configuration, so they're displayed horizontally with tanks/healers on the top row and DPS on the bottom.
    • Hide the cast bar on the party frames
    • Hide MP bars for all none-healer party members
    • Remove class Icons from the party frames. Colour code the name by role instead.
    • Colour code allied name plates by Job role.
    • Split up the HP/MP parameter bar into two bars. Hide the MP one for jobs that don't use it.
    • Attach the HP and MP bar to my characters name plate.
    • Strip the Job Gauge down to just being a bar and/or combo point counter that's attached to my character name plate.
    • An option for a seperate buff bar, which I could use just to show important timers. Maim, Defensive CD durations etc. Which again is attached to the character name plate
    • The enemy list to be split up into a 2x4 configuration.
    • The Alliance frames to only show people with a debuff and who are dead
    • The limit bar to be rotated to be vertical, and split into a 1x3 configuration
    • Buff/Debuff count downs to show a visual indication of their duration, by slowly darkening in a circular pattern as the get closer to expiring instead of the countdown number they have
    • Show my own debuffs as a countdown bar independent of my target. So I wouldn't need to be targeting a boss to see a DoT duration etc
    • Remove that strange little half moon symbol on the XP bar
    • Have the XP bar count down how much XP is left to level, instead of counting upwards how much I have
    Honestly I expected a bit more meat to your critiques. A lot of these circles around 2 key things. Better customization on the party frames and player frame. I can't disagree there, but some of the others are already accounted for, or are what I consider silly. For instance, the moon denotes whether you're earning rested XP. Sure it's not gamebreaking to have or not to have, but it's so a little crazy to call out IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    This.
    The game has a 2.5s GCD. More than enough time to switch targets.
    To be fair, it's 100% more efficient with mouseovers. It's simply less work. There's definitely a learning curve, but much like driving a manual in traffic, it's perfectly functional, just less efficient (i.e. more work) than an automatic.

  3. #48303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    To be fair, it's 100% more efficient with mouseovers. It's simply less work. There's definitely a learning curve, but much like driving a manual in traffic, it's perfectly functional, just less efficient (i.e. more work) than an automatic.
    In general: yes. They are less work and if they function well, they are definitely faster.
    I miss the feedback when I use mouseover macros though.

    It's like operating a touch device, I am never quite sure whether my command has been accepted by the device or not. Esp annoying on older, slower hardware.

    With a mouseover macro, I cannot be sure if the server got who I want to heal during the cast. I only see it once the cast is through. If I have the wrong target, I can abort mid cast and immediately correct the error. Okay, aborting often doesn't work in FF-XIV anyway because the server is so damn laggy, making a step in order to abort but the cast going through anyway is always ... awkward , but you get my idea.

  4. #48304
    Just a guess into the dark.

    /target <mo>
    /ac <Cure> (<t>?)

    maybe that works somehow. You could at least try it.
    At least it can't heal anyone other than the target then.

  5. #48305
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    The issue I'd see with that is a lot of healing is done with OGCD and making sure it actually fires when you press the button because macros don't queue like regular buttons presses makes me leery.

    I literally only macros for things like Shirk, Nascent Flash, and Salted Earth, where targeting stuff is annoying and it's basically going to be on the same target all the time anyhow.

    I would feel safer putting my damage attacks on a <tt> as a healer if I used a lot of macros.

  6. #48306
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Yeah that's too much and I can't get in game to check such minute details asked (showing only debuffed or dead members in an Alliance raid..?) I thought you just wanted to edit the UI in some general level, no default UI will let you completely revamp it like that.
    I mean... WoW's default UI does. Rift's default UI does. Even SWTOR lets you get something similar without any addons. WoW Classic will even let you do most of it without addons too. They can even be set to automatically swap to this config for specific content. FF 14 is really the only hotbar based MMO that doesn't let you set up your UI this way.

    Hell, DOTA and LoL let you get the bulk of these UI changes too.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    As long as you don't use multiple lines, <mo> works just fine and doesn't mess up anything.
    Which is fine in isolation, but awful when you want to have just the one skill per button, but change who it's cast on in a hierarchy of targets. Which is where mouseover macros really shine. It's far easier for muscle memory with a single key per skill, and you don't need to set up a complex web of hidden hotbars with various key modifiers to make it work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Honestly I expected a bit more meat to your critiques. A lot of these circles around 2 key things. Better customization on the party frames and player frame. I can't disagree there, but some of the others are already accounted for, or are what I consider silly. For instance, the moon denotes whether you're earning rested XP. Sure it's not gamebreaking to have or not to have, but it's so a little crazy to call out IMO.
    Those are just to give a brief rundown of how I'd customise the default parts of the UI if I could. The player and party UI's are the most immediately important for combat, given how they are the primay way you interact with the game world. It was in reference to how I would reconfigure the default UI if able to. Given the option, I'd strip out everything and start again from scratch.

    There's a ton more I'd change if given the chance. But top 3 would have to be
    • Skill tooltips. They're both overly detailed and quite often you need to re-read them multiple times to get an idea of what the skill actually does. There are a lot of them that give a complete break down of the spells complete effects when in reality something like "Increases the potency of your AoE heals for 20 seconds" sums up exactly what the skill does on a functional level.
    • The market board UI. I don't think it's intuitive at all, especially when you take into account the retainer aspect of it. Lots of room for improvement here.
    • The UI for changing the UI (If that one makes sense?). It's quite cumbersome having it split over two menus in entirely different sections of the game interface, and each having multiple sub menus. Get it all in one place.

    I could go through and list everything, what I think is wrong with it and how I would improve it, but honestly we'd be here until the heat death of the universe and, ultimately, nothing would ever change as a result of it.

    As for the little moon, I get what it's for. But the XP bar already changes to a darker colour to give you an indication of how much rested XP you have. You get a text notification whenever you enter a rested zone too. Having the moon as well is redundant imo. That one is more of a whinging nitpick. So is having the sword icon on the HP bar, it annoys me for no real reason and serves no real purpose for me and I want it gone.

    There's lots of other little nitpicks I have too. Like the Connection bar having just an up and down number without it really being clear what each mean. But those little problems do add up to what I would consider to be the main core of my issue with it - It's got far too much extreneous detail that distracts from the important information. And that permeates through all aspects of the UI, from long winded tooltips right through to that Moon symbol. Thats what gives it that over designed and under informative look that I don't think benefits the game or it's players.

  7. #48307
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Which is fine in isolation, but awful when you want to have just the one skill per button, but change who it's cast on in a hierarchy of targets. Which is where mouseover macros really shine. It's far easier for muscle memory with a single key per skill, and you don't need to set up a complex web of hidden hotbars with various key modifiers to make it work.
    Mouseover doesn't benefit from that at all, if you want to target yourself, you just mouseover yourself.
    Your mouse is over the party list anyway. A hierarchy of targets is actually most likely worse than not having it, because it's going to mess up your targeting and gives room for error that would otherwise not even be there.

    "I'm not in range, then I'm just going to heal myself" You don't want that. Never.


    I mean... WoW's default UI does. Rift's default UI does. Even SWTOR lets you get something similar without any addons. WoW Classic will even let you do most of it without addons too.
    You can do that? I'm not playing with any raidbars in WoW, but I always thought you can only see the debuffs if you have the groups listed.
    The name and HP-Bar won't just pop up out of no where just because they have a debuff, do they?

    Skill tooltips. They're both overly detailed and quite often you need to re-read them multiple times to get an idea of what the skill actually does. There are a lot of them that give a complete break down of the spells complete effects when in reality something like "Increases the potency of your AoE heals for 20 seconds" sums up exactly what the skill does on a functional level.
    Just no, tooltips are fine, short, simple and tell you exactly what you need. Not sure how that can be in your top 3. There is literally nothing to even improve upon it.
    They go like "You cast healing magic to heal everyone around you - Potency: 550"

    The market board UI. I don't think it's intuitive at all, especially when you take into account the retainer aspect of it. Lots of room for improvement here.
    I'm fine with the market UI and it's actually better than the old standard WoW AH when it comes to finding what you need.
    With WoW switching to the "guild wars"-system however, it's the other way around.

    The UI for changing the UI (If that one makes sense?). It's quite cumbersome having it split over two menus in entirely different sections of the game interface, and each having multiple sub menus. Get it all in one place.
    yes. but impossible
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-05-22 at 04:18 AM.

  8. #48308
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Mouseover doesn't benefit from that at all, if you want to target yourself, you just mouseover yourself.
    Your mouse is over the party list anyway. A hierarchy of targets is actually most likely worse than not having it, because it's going to mess up your targeting and gives room for error that would otherwise not even be there.
    I don't think you understand what it's about. Here's example of healing macro in WoW from IV.
    Holding Alt: Self Cast.
    Mouseover Friend: Cast on Mouseover.
    Target Friend: Cast on Target.
    Target Enemy Targeting Friend: Cast on Enemy's Target.
    Default casting Behaviour: Casts as if there was no macro, and generates the tooltip.
    #showtooltip
    /cast [mod:alt,@player] [@mouseover,help,nodead] [help] [@targettarget,help,nodead] [] SPELL
    It's actually pretty easy to understand and saves you tons of time from switching targets with just one keybind.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  9. #48309
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    I don't think you understand what it's about. Here's example of healing macro in WoW from IV.

    It's actually pretty easy to understand and saves you tons of time from switching targets with just one keybind.
    No,

    that's not what it's about.
    He doesn't want to use modifiers.
    If you want modifiers you can simply add the same <mo> macro again with a modifier and hide that hotbar (you have more than enough room for that and it's by no means as complex as he makes it sound)
    And as mentioned, these mouse over macros are problematic.
    If the game doesn't recognize your input, or you miss your input, it will automatically heal you or whatever it recognized, not your target-target and you have no way of knowing until the cast is finished.

    That's why you not use "if nothing applies, heal myself" for example. (or in your case "if mouse is over A do B, if A is C - target A and do B.)

    You could in theory do the same thing in FFXIV macros btw. But you shouldn't because the macro will always do all actions. It has no "stop" function.
    But for reasons stated above, you don't want those macros anyway. Especially not in FFXIV...

    The game mechanics and how healing works is not the same in FFXIV as it is in WoW.
    <MO> and targeting is enough to do it all, with absolute ease, the boss doesn't target anyone with abilities. You don't pre cast heals based on enemy-targets for example.

    I could understand it if there actually was a benefit, but there isn't any.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-05-22 at 10:53 AM.

  10. #48310
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    They work, but you shouldn't use more than a single command.

    Healers should always use <mo>, and not include <t> <tt> <me> etc.
    Tanks who want to shirk should always use <2> and if you want a specific skill for a specific party position it's best to just add a hotbar right next to the party list with the specific <#> and "click" it.
    Or again, use <mo>.

    As long as you don't use multiple lines, <mo> works just fine and doesn't mess up anything.

    There are some workarounds for other stuffs, such as hiding your HP/MP alltogether and put yourself on focus target and use that as an HP bar for example. As a mana-less DD, you don't really need a focus target.
    I actually have a mouseover macro with multiple lines on my White Mage that works really well. It's simply to consolidate my instant single target heals into one keybind but it does what I want it to do:

    /merror off
    /ac "Afflatus Solace" <mo>
    /ac "Tetragrammaton" <mo>
    /ac "Benediction" <mo>
    /micon "Tetragrammaton"

    Obviously something like this probably wouldn't work well for dps but for my WHM it's great! Basically I click the keybind I have set for that macro and it will use Afflatus Solace if I have lilies available. If no lilies are available it will cast Tetragrammaton instead. And finally, if I have no lilies and Tetra is on cooldown, it will cast Benediction instead. I like Bene at the end because I don't usually have to use it, but if I have no lilies and no Tetra I'm probably in a situation where I NEED to hit Bene which is decidedly rare for me these days. I do keep Benediction on my action bar though so I can manually use it if I need it specifically but so far the only cases where I ever have to actually hit that button is when a GNB hits his Superbolide and the GNB usually warns me ahead of time.

  11. #48311
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Oof, that macro wouldn't work for me at all.
    1. In raids you typically use Benediction when dealing with tank busters. Way more efficient than wasting multiple GCDs to bring the tank back up.
    2. I don't use lilies for emergency heals. I use them all the time esp since you can weave oGCDs after using them, so that macro would waste emergency skills like Tetra and Bene a lot.

  12. #48312
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I actually have a mouseover macro with multiple lines on my White Mage that works really well. It's simply to consolidate my instant single target heals into one keybind but it does what I want it to do:
    Won't you end up casting 2 spells if you, for whatever reason, press it multiple times in quick succession? Or the wrong one if you start pressing the butting before the oGCD/GCD is "ready" again?

    What I'm suggesting is, that most players play by spamming the buttons they want to press next.

    i.e. "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 3 3 3 3"

    If 2 is your Macro,
    you might start pressing it when 1 is still casting or the oGCD is still occupied, and due to how FFXIV macros work, your macro might be currently trying to execute the

    /merror off
    /ac "Afflatus Solace" <mo>
    /ac "Tetragrammaton" <mo>
    /ac "Benediction" <mo>
    /micon "Tetragrammaton"

    part and not start with Afflatus Solace.

  13. #48313
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Won't you end up casting 2 spells if you, for whatever reason, press it multiple times in quick succession? Or the wrong one if you start pressing the butting before the oGCD/GCD is "ready" again?

    What I'm suggesting is, that most players play by spamming the buttons they want to press next.

    i.e. "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 3 3 3 3"

    If 2 is your Macro,
    you might start pressing it when 1 is still casting or the oGCD is still occupied, and due to how FFXIV macros work, your macro might be currently trying to execute the

    /merror off
    /ac "Afflatus Solace" <mo>
    /ac "Tetragrammaton" <mo>
    /ac "Benediction" <mo>
    /micon "Tetragrammaton"

    part and not start with Afflatus Solace.
    The behavior you're describing with Tetra can indeed happen if I click in quick succession... and I actually like that behavior. If a single Solace ends up not being enough I can hit my keybind again even while the GCD is ticking and cast my Tetra! In fact if my GCD is ticking for any reason I can still cast an oGCD Tetra as long as it isn't on cooldown!

    I don't typically mash my healing keybinds like I do DPS skills. On the off chance I do feel the need to though, the above behavior is desirable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Oof, that macro wouldn't work for me at all.
    1. In raids you typically use Benediction when dealing with tank busters. Way more efficient than wasting multiple GCDs to bring the tank back up.
    2. I don't use lilies for emergency heals. I use them all the time esp since you can weave oGCDs after using them, so that macro would waste emergency skills like Tetra and Bene a lot.
    I use my lilies quite liberally. I also don't really see Tetra as an "emergency" skill since it has such a short cooldown. Bene of course is what I consider an emergency skill which is why it's at the end of my macro. Lilies accrue so quickly and Tetra has such a short cooldown, it's rare that I ever actually cast Bene with my macro, but when I do it's because I am out of lilies, Tetra is on cooldown, and I need an instant heal NOW. As mentioned before I also have Benediction on my action bar for when I need to use it specifically.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2020-05-22 at 01:17 PM.

  14. #48314
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You can do that? I'm not playing with any raidbars in WoW, but I always thought you can only see the debuffs if you have the groups listed.
    The name and HP-Bar won't just pop up out of no where just because they have a debuff, do they?
    The only things that come close that I can check right now on the settings is hiding resource bars on party frames, but his specific request was only for non-healers so no, and colour code party frames based on the character class, but his specific request was colour coding them based on role not job so another no. There's not even job gauges and enemy lists in WoW and the rest of the things are not possible through WoW's default UI.
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  15. #48315
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Lilies accrue so quickly
    If only... I always mash the Lily button, then look at Tetra being on CD and start to cast while grumbling.

  16. #48316
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Just no, tooltips are fine, short, simple and tell you exactly what you need. Not sure how that can be in your top 3. There is literally nothing to even improve upon it.
    They go like "You cast healing magic to heal everyone around you - Potency: 550"
    Are they? This is what the tooltip for the Astrologians Collective Unconcious looks like;


    As you can see, it's a lot to unpack. There's a lot of repetition here and while the effects are similar for both sects, they're not quite identical. It's got some pretty large flaws like not telling you the maximum duration of the sphere if you don't take another action. It's all around worded badly and unclearly. The way it's presented makes it hard to understand just what the skill does for each sect and what the differences between them are.

    As an aside, it would also benefit from additional space in there, a break between each effect would make it much more readable for the player.

    It could be simplified to something like the following;
    "Creates a Celestial ring around the caster.
    If you are in Dirunal Sect allies in the ring have their damage taken reduced by 10% while in the sphere and recieve a 100 Potency Regen buff for 15 seconds.
    If you are in Nocturnal Sect allies in the ring recieve a 100 potency regen while in the sphere and recieve a buff reducing damage taken by 10% for 20 seconds.
    The sphere lasts for 20 seconds or until moving or casting any other spell".

    It's a much shorter and concise description of what the skill actually does, without getting bogged down in specifics and terminology. It's also much more readable for the player.

    Let's try another Astrologian skill. Here's what Earthly Star looks like;


    As you can see, it's a complete word salad for what is a simple skill in practice.

    It could read something like;
    "Deploys an Earthly Star in the targeted area. The Star lasts for up to 20 seconds and can be detonated dealing unaspected damage with 100 potency to all enemies in the area and healing allies in the area for 520 Potency.

    If not detonated after 10 seconds, these effects are increased to 150 potency damage and 720 potency healing.

    You can reactivate this ability to detonate the Star at any time. Earthly star automatically detonates after 20 seconds."

    Short and to the point.

    These, and tooltips like them, are what I consider to be the problem. They're too descriptive and far too exact on what the skill does. They're a mass of terms that you have to take the time to interpret and digest before you can really fully appreciate what a skill does and how it works. They tell you every buff they apply by name, what each effect does and how long all the effects last indivudually.

    By the time you get to the end of the tooltip you've probably not understood half of what it does and need to re-read it multiple times until you do. That is a problem! Especially for what is widely billed as being a beginner friendly MMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Mouseover doesn't benefit from that at all, if you want to target yourself, you just mouseover yourself.
    Your mouse is over the party list anyway. A hierarchy of targets is actually most likely worse than not having it, because it's going to mess up your targeting and gives room for error that would otherwise not even be there.
    Sometimes. I also use mouseover on character models too when I need things used right now and don't have the time to find people on the raid UI. There are some skills that really benefit

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    He doesn't want to use modifiers.
    I want to avoid them because it means having the same key on 5-6 different bindings, making multiple keybindings for a single skill which I find throws off my muscle memory when I need to use something in a hurry, and may even involve having to make a series of macros too. Having to do that for 7, 8, 9 skills is going to quickly eat up available hotbar space.

    I'm already strained for hotbar space. Not exclusively due to this issue, but there's a lot of clutter that's ended up needing to go on a hotbar. Like target markers, waypoints etc. They give you a default limit of 120, but I've probably got a good 70 or 80 filled on most jobs, even without having to have duplicate skills on there.

    Bare in mind that you only have 200 macros shared across all your jobs, so having to make multiple macros for a single skill, then have to make one for each skill you want to set them up with and also have room left for all those other essential macros like waypoints, target marks and so on is pushing it. The problem is only going to get worse as more jobs are added.

    Then to soundly round all of these problems off, I'm also extremly short on keybinding real estate too. Without having one skill across several different binds.

    I will admit that what you are proposing is a work around for a problem. I acknowledge that it would even work for some people. However, it doesn't work for me in my situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    -Macro-
    That's more or less the one I use myself. It's simple, flexible and it works all of the time without any exceptions. Honestly, it's absolutely fantastic. There's no messy target switching to use utility skills, you can just point the mouse at the person you want to cast on and press the button. Far easier than having to click on them, press the skill, then click back on your previous target.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You can do that? I'm not playing with any raidbars in WoW, but I always thought you can only see the debuffs if you have the groups listed.
    The name and HP-Bar won't just pop up out of no where just because they have a debuff, do they?
    You also don't have people outside your group, but inside your raid instance in WoW either. You can, however, have the default Blizz UI apply a colour coded frame on allies in your raid that you can cleanse. You can also manually adjust the colours of each state to help bring them to your attention sooner if you wish.

    As another aside, being able to customise the colours this way is an amazing accessability feature for colourblind players.

    The reason I want something like this is to bring it to my attention when I would need to intervene in another group for a healer res or esuna without the need to have all 24 bars all over my UI. Trim some of the fat, so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    The only things that come close that I can check right now on the settings is hiding resource bars on party frames, but his specific request was only for non-healers so no
    As much as I hate to quote myself;
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The lack of well functioning mouse over macros is huge negative for me. Especially for jobs where they want you to cast abilities on your allies, not only healers, but Tanks with Shirk, Dragoons with their eyes etc.
    I specifically mentioned jobs where " they want you to cast abilities on your allies". Healers are at the top of that list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    and colour code party frames based on the character class, but his specific request was colour coding them based on role not job so another no.
    I only want them colour coded on role because FF14 doesn't have multiple roles per job. Where in WoW a Druid can be a Tank, or Healer or pretty much anything, a Black Mage in FF14 is always a DPS. There's little point in Job colours when a players role in combat is defined by their job exclusively. You might as well give them all the same role colour because they're all doing the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    There's not even job gauges and enemy lists in WoW and the rest of the things are not possible through WoW's default UI.
    Class specific resources such as Rage, Focus etc are already on WoW character plates by default. The Job Gauges are there too, they're the Combo Point counter or Holy Power pinned to your character plate and the duration of important class buffs - Also pinned to your character plate.

    The fact it has a cute name like "Job Gauge" doesn't change the fact it's a simple combo point counter or buff timer in function.

    You don't really need the enemy lists in WoW because, and I realise this is a running theme here, that information is pinned to an enemies name plate and turned on by default. It already lines up with them across my UI in a horizontal line anway *shrug*.
    Last edited by StrawberryZebra; 2020-05-22 at 09:43 PM.

  17. #48317
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Are they? This is what the tooltip for the Astrologians Collective Unconcious looks like;
    -snip-
    I disagree, thats just your opinion.
    The tooltips are designed in a way that you can find everything immediatly.
    I have never seen that tooltip and know exactly what it does after I read through it once. The potencies, duration and effects are highlighted the way they are highlighted for all skills and are thus easy to understand.

    The way you describe these skills are not and can not be consistent and thus suffer from the same problem card game card description would suffer. Even worse, they are hardly shorter (83 words vs 110 words and if I remove the buff name and the last sentence from the description, which yours doesn't mention, I'm basically on equal amount of words) and missing information such as buff/debuff names. The sentences that actually describe the skill are pretty much the same. You just removed the parts that show the potencies, durations and buff names and only included these potencies and durations into the sentence.

    This is however by design and there is a reason behind this, as stated above, it's to format the whole thing in a way that is identical to all other skills in the game.

    It's just silly to have this as a priority when the whole things works just fine and hardly needs any improvement.
    It's not like you read through the whole thing whenever you press it anyway. The more information you get, the better.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-05-23 at 08:44 AM.

  18. #48318
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I disagree, thats just your opinion.
    The tooltips are designed in a way that you can find everything immediatly.
    Honestly: I think I don't need to know that the star creates 2 short term debuffs and what their name is, nor do I need to know the name of the explosion spell.
    That is completely irrelevant information. I also don't need them to spell out that it heals/damages all people in it's range. It has a radius, that in itself is enough information. Esp once you see the thing in action. They could just write:

    [Earthly Star]
    Range: 30y
    Radius: 8y
    Maximum Duration 20s
    Damage Potency 100
    Heal Potency 200

    After 10 Seconds
    Damage Potency 200
    Heal Potency 400

    Can be manually detonated at any time.

    As for the collective unconscious tooltip: considering that the healer needs to know what the buffs/debuffs do and that it's dependent on Nocturnal/Diurnal stance, I don't think this can be worded more efficiently.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    By the time you get to the end of the tooltip you've probably not understood half of what it does and need to re-read it multiple times until you do. That is a problem!
    Then maybe, people should shut down their computers and grab a book or two.
    What a ridiculous statement. o_O

    BTW: you don't have to understand the spell JUST from the tooltip. You know, you could also use the spell a few times in addition to the tooltip to see what it does. In combination, everything should be clear within 10 seconds.
    Come on, this is a VIDEO GAME not rocket science.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2020-05-23 at 09:15 AM.

  19. #48319
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Even worse, they are hardly shorter (83 words vs 110 words
    You do realise that means that the current FF14 tooltips contain 37.5% more words than the ones I mocked up, right? That's significant, statistically speaking.

    There's also the formatting issue I briefly touched on. Tooltips aren't laid out in a way that's user friendly and are just one continuous wall of text. Some white space in there to break up important parts of information would go a long way to make them more readable.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It's just silly to have this as a priority when the whole things works just fine and hardly needs any improvement.
    There's so much they could do to improve them.

    They could change them to offer contextual information, so for things like Limit Break rather than having the full description for every role it could just show you what's relevant to your role.

    The formatting of them is attrocious. There's a garish mess of colours and text in one continuous block, and the readability of them suffers because of it. Having the colouring on pretty much everything to make it stand out has the opposite effect - It blends in with all the other text.

    Particularly for jobs like the Black Mage, where they have two distinct Fire and Ice mechanics, adding some colour coding as to which spell interacts with each mechanic would make them far more readable.

    Where things are a passage of text, they're often worded poorly or strangely. I suspect this is because they may have been translated directly from the Japanese. Things like "Upon next HP recovery by the next healing spell cast by self or allied party member..." It's a very long winded way of saying "The next time you are healed"

    Then there are lots of inconsistencies in descriptions too. Ramparts description is "Reduces damage taken by 20%". Intervention says "Reduces target party members damage taken by 10%". Yet Passage of Arms and Sacred Soil word it as "Creates an area in which party members will only suffer 85% of all damage inflicted". It's not resticted just to group cooldowns either, Temperance says "Reduces damage taken by self and all party members".

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    As for the collective unconscious tooltip: considering that the healer needs to know what the buffs/debuffs do and that it's dependent on Nocturnal/Diurnal stance, I don't think this can be worded more efficiently.
    Yeah, it's quite a subtle skill in general. It isn't helped by the fact that it has very similar effects in both sects, and the difference is simply in how those effects are applied to players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Then maybe, people should shut down their computers and grab a book or two.
    What a ridiculous statement. o_O
    While I do encourage people to read more, I'm also aware that English isn't everyones first language. Not everyone has the best reading comprehension skills either. Younger players, those with dyslexia or other reading difficulties might not be able to follow along as easilly as you can.

    Using the spell is good and well, but for something like Collective Unconcious for example, you could easilly miss the nuance in the skill using it in combat. The initial description would lead you to believe it has almost the same effects in both sects. You need to be paying very close attention to spot the difference in actual game play.

    People are just going to stack in the bubble anyway out of habit and those differences don't really seem to matter. Which almost completely invalidates any differences based on your sect, as well as the giant tooltip :P.

  20. #48320
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    You do realise that means that the current FF14 tooltips contain 37.5% more words than the ones I mocked up, right? That's significant, statistically speaking.

    There's also the formatting issue I briefly touched on. Tooltips aren't laid out in a way that's user friendly and are just one continuous wall of text. Some white space in there to break up important parts of information would go a long way to make them more readable.
    That's exactly where you are wrong, the format is worse in yours. It's great in the tooltip given by the game.

    And actually, your mocked up version has less information, if you use the same amount of information given, it's - as I pointed out already - 83 vs 89 words. If I remove the part about it canceling auto attacks and that even facing a different direction, which isn't even movement strictly speaking (because behold, I can turn around while doing casts normally), will cancel the spell, the FFXIV version uses even fewer words.
    But the format in yours is worse as it doesn't follow any coherent rule. You just try to word the values into the sentence. FFXIV tries to word what the skill does and then adds the values below that description as a "cheat-sheat". They are *the opposite* of a wall of text.

    It's almost insultingly stupid to even discuss this.

    As for them being unreadable or a "mess" or anything like that, as mention before: "That's just your opinion man".
    If there is a messed up tooltip, it's an outlier, but for sure not the general problem
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-05-23 at 01:49 PM.

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