1. #48681
    I guess i forgot to do the lvl.80 Dragoon quest till now and that was interesting. I hope in the next expansion, beyond ishgard housing, we actually do get some quests returning to coethas and dravania to see how things have changed some more like we got a lot of Uldah revisits in the past post ARR.
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  2. #48682
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    I guess i forgot to do the lvl.80 Dragoon quest till now and that was interesting. I hope in the next expansion, beyond ishgard housing, we actually do get some quests returning to coethas and dravania to see how things have changed some more like we got a lot of Uldah revisits in the past post ARR.
    Honestly this was my biggest disconnect with story so far because I don't feel bad for Nidhogg.
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  3. #48683
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Honestly this was my biggest disconnect with story so far because I don't feel bad for Nidhogg.
    I think they kind of failed to get across that we really only meet Nidhogg as this weakened, bitter old dragon in a dungeon and afterwards we are dealing basically with a revenant. This ghost driven to exist beyond death purely by a need for revenge so he could never be reasoned with because he wasn't really there anymore. He was just an echoe that refused to move on or maybe even can't. The bit i found interesting was that it wasn't just a case of "hey these elezenn are not the people that committed the murder of your sibling" but the overwhelming majority of the dragons were distant relations at best or like the ishgardians were born long after it happened but Nidhogg was pushing this bullshit with no endgame. The dragoon quest shows a little more of him being the dragon who in Midgardsormrs absence basically fulfilled the role we do now and didn't think mortal men could do it. So what was the endgame when he went mad? take over the whole world? doubtful since strong as he was i don't think he could take on eozrea as a whole, garlemald, othard and so on. He would have probably levelled ishgard and just made it a no mans land. The only people who really would have suffered the long term would be the young dragons who would have their future taken away from them and i like the trailer canon that the warrior of light during heavensward put down his axe, became a dragoon and then the azure dragoon and ended up saving the dragons as much as they saved ishgard, proving that they were the inheritor of Nidhoggs original legacy all along.

    Which looking back makes his fathers fascination with us before that look a lot less random in retrospect.
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  4. #48684
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    I think they kind of failed to get across that we really only meet Nidhogg as this weakened, bitter old dragon in a dungeon and afterwards we are dealing basically with a revenant. This ghost driven to exist beyond death purely by a need for revenge so he could never be reasoned with because he wasn't really there anymore. He was just an echoe that refused to move on or maybe even can't. The bit i found interesting was that it wasn't just a case of "hey these elezenn are not the people that committed the murder of your sibling" but the overwhelming majority of the dragons were distant relations at best or like the ishgardians were born long after it happened but Nidhogg was pushing this bullshit with no endgame. The dragoon quest shows a little more of him being the dragon who in Midgardsormrs absence basically fulfilled the role we do now and didn't think mortal men could do it. So what was the endgame when he went mad? take over the whole world? doubtful since strong as he was i don't think he could take on eozrea as a whole, garlemald, othard and so on. He would have probably levelled ishgard and just made it a no mans land. The only people who really would have suffered the long term would be the young dragons who would have their future taken away from them and i like the trailer canon that the warrior of light during heavensward put down his axe, became a dragoon and then the azure dragoon and ended up saving the dragons as much as they saved ishgard, proving that they were the inheritor of Nidhoggs original legacy all along.

    Which looking back makes his fathers fascination with us before that look a lot less random in retrospect.
    I think the real problem is that Nidhogg's Horde is never characterized. The only speaking member of the Horde is Nidhogg, who comes across as a one note evil dragon. The rest of the Horde is just generic mook fodder. So with Nidhogg just being an evil dragon, the whole Horde feels like a rather nebulous, forgettable faction. Then again, FFXIV has a really hard time characterizing their villain factions: the Church was just another stereotypically evil JRPG church and the Garlean Empire during Stormblood are saturday morning cartoon villains (the empire only gets nuance in side stories and background lore, never during the main story). The Ascians were an incredibly bland Organization XIII up until Shadowbringers. The least ridiculous antagonist faction is Eulmore, which benefits from getting relatively little screentime and the narrative establishing earlier on that it's really only Vauthry and Ran'jit who are the bad guys, not Eulmore as a whole.

    I think the best villain faction in FFXIV was (3.5) Ilberd's group. Ilberd, Yuyuhase, and Laurentius had plausible motivations and you could trace the chain of events that led them to doing what they did. Ilberd also had genuinely compelling points (the Eorzean Alliance likes to tout how they are all about freedom and unity but it's been 20 years and they have no plans on liberating Ala Mhigo, Ala Mhigans keep whining about their situation and longing for the good old days but nobody does anything, so Ilberd is going to finally do it). Kind of a let down that Yuyuhase and Laurentius were dealt with off screen but not a big deal.

    5.0 the Ascians became interesting as of Shadowbringers but it doesn't retroactively make their presentation during 2.0 through 4.55 better.

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  5. #48685
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Honestly this was my biggest disconnect with story so far because I don't feel bad for Nidhogg.
    I've been working on leveling Dragoon over the weekend and the fact that the story is centered around the Nidhoggs' eye, a problem which has long since been resolved, is laughable.

    Then again, I do also think that class story quests were a dumb idea to begin with for partly for reasons like these. Also I really don't care about whatever world changing crisis you want me to avert, just show me how to do the backflip!

  6. #48686
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I've been working on leveling Dragoon over the weekend and the fact that the story is centered around the Nidhoggs' eye, a problem which has long since been resolved, is laughable.

    Then again, I do also think that class story quests were a dumb idea to begin with for partly for reasons like these. Also I really don't care about whatever world changing crisis you want me to avert, just show me how to do the backflip!
    Well considering Niddhogg's eye was used for the assault on Ishgard, the summoning of Shinryu, which in turn got us to use Omega. Etc etc them eyes are certainly important.

    most of the small things in FF14's story just cascade into the further expacs and either keep growing or stay a threat throughout even if the physical item itself is gone and effects stay.

  7. #48687
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    Well considering Niddhogg's eye was used for the assault on Ishgard, the summoning of Shinryu, which in turn got us to use Omega. Etc etc them eyes are certainly important.

    most of the small things in FF14's story just cascade into the further expacs and either keep growing or stay a threat throughout even if the physical item itself is gone and effects stay.
    I think the problem is potential to experience the first part (Estinien running away from Ishgard with the Eye, as he thinks that's what Nidhogg is pursuing) last, because it's DRG's level 30-50 job quests.
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  8. #48688
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I think the best villain faction in FFXIV was (3.5) Ilberd's group. Ilberd, Yuyuhase, and Laurentius had plausible motivations and you could trace the chain of events that led them to doing what they did. Ilberd also had genuinely compelling points (the Eorzean Alliance likes to tout how they are all about freedom and unity but it's been 20 years and they have no plans on liberating Ala Mhigo, Ala Mhigans keep whining about their situation and longing for the good old days but nobody does anything, so Ilberd is going to finally do it). Kind of a let down that Yuyuhase and Laurentius were dealt with off screen but not a big deal.
    I would tend to agree, but honestly the bar was set pretty high with all that. The context, the setup, the tie-ins that extended well into the next set of storylines. I actually don't think it gets enough credit, and probably because a lot of the buildup comes in a part of the game that many people resent playing through.

    As for Nidhogg, I really think the tale of Midgarsormr's brood is just supposed to be a tragedy, and we see the final act unfold before us. He's not really supposed to be a deep, compelling villain with complex motivations, he's just a sad old bastard who spent his life chasing the ghosts of the past.

    Nidhogg is like the old man in the retirement home still holding a grudge against Matt Dublowski for taking his spot on the high school football team, so he convinces his grandkids that Matt's grandkids are losers who should get beat up. So it's not compelling in it's depth so much as it's just kinda...sad. It still needs to be stopped, but it's still just a sign of a sad little man.

  9. #48689
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Nidhogg is like the old man in the retirement home still holding a grudge against Matt Dublowski for taking his spot on the high school football team, so he convinces his grandkids that Matt's grandkids are losers who should get beat up. So it's not compelling in it's depth so much as it's just kinda...sad. It still needs to be stopped, but it's still just a sign of a sad little man.
    I don't think it's reasonable to equate "killing his sister" with "taking his spot on the high school football team".

  10. #48690
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    Well considering Niddhogg's eye was used for the assault on Ishgard, the summoning of Shinryu, which in turn got us to use Omega. Etc etc them eyes are certainly important.

    most of the small things in FF14's story just cascade into the further expacs and either keep growing or stay a threat throughout even if the physical item itself is gone and effects stay.
    Like a certain white mage in the first few quests who just wants her tank husband to succeed on the quest...
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  11. #48691
    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    I don't think it's reasonable to equate "killing his sister" with "taking his spot on the high school football team".
    It's called an analogy, not an equating.

    The point wasn't even the event itself, it was the old man clinging to it for the rest of his life and dragging future generations into it.

  12. #48692
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    Don't see what the problem is with job quests. Even if you are doing them at a time where the plot isn't really on the spotlight anymore it's still nice to get a bit of a side story related to the event or backstory you otherwise wouldn't even know about. Plus I really like most of the characters from the job quests and always look forward to seeing how they are doing between expacs. Except the warrior quests. What a load of useless crap.
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  13. #48693
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    https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/421185
    Letter from producer on their forum with a new release date and little more info also another live setup, they had to delay a bit more to August 11th

  14. #48694
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/421185
    Letter from producer on their forum with a new release date and little more info also another live setup, they had to delay a bit more to August 11th
    Holy fucking yikes.....

  15. #48695
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    Damn 2 month delay is rough, but July was going to be packed with Ghosts of Tsushima, the new Temtem update, and getting through some of my backlog anyways so I'm not too fussed about it.

  16. #48696
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It's called an analogy, not an equating.

    The point wasn't even the event itself, it was the old man clinging to it for the rest of his life and dragging future generations into it.
    To be fair though, Dragons in media (incl FF) don't tend to experience time as the more mortal races do. Dragging future generations into your biases/beliefs, etc. is standard for a lot of races in the real world too so it's not unwarranted that mythological races would also adhere to it.

  17. #48697
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    To be fair though, Dragons in media (incl FF) don't tend to experience time as the more mortal races do. Dragging future generations into your biases/beliefs, etc. is standard for a lot of races in the real world too so it's not unwarranted that mythological races would also adhere to it.
    Yeah, not to mention they didn't kill her out of accident or in war, it was Betrayal, to gain her powers. And when Nidhogg went out for vengeance they kinda stole his eyes too. Pair that with intense hatred that was left in the oven for a thousand years, and you've a recipe for angry dragon.

  18. #48698
    A big part about the Dragonsong War is actually about whether Ishgard deserves its fate or not.
    Even they themselves thought they deserved it - depending on which NPC you ask.

    So Nidhogg's eternal rage turns from "unreasonable - he's the bad guy" to "this guy has more than enough reason to wipe them all out"

    Bovinity Divinity is right about it not being about him so much. Though his example makes Nidhogg sound like he acted without real reason.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-07-01 at 04:55 PM.

  19. #48699
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    A big part about the Dragonsong War is actually about whether Ishgard deserves its fate or not.
    Even they themselves thought they deserved it - depending on which NPC you ask.

    So Nidhogg's eternal rage turns from "unreasonable - he's the bad guy" to "this guy has more than enough reason to wipe them all out"
    More like whether the country is responsible for what one power hungry king with his knights did millenium ago.
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  20. #48700
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    https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...01#post5374601

    So 5.3 release date is August 11th... This must be an Ascian plot to bring the next calamity through a Flood of Boredom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    So Nidhogg's eternal rage turns from "unreasonable - he's the bad guy" to "this guy has more than enough reason to wipe them all out"
    Not at all. His sister was killed. Tragic but nowhere "enough reason" to wipe out anyone, much less to submit generations of people to vengeful bloodletting.
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