1. #48701
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllieNora View Post
    Levelling is more fun than actually being max level.
    I guess it's the feeling that you are "completing" something; when you level up jobs it feels good because you know you're pushing towards having every combat job maxxed out. If I'm doing non-raid content on a max level job, it can feel like I'm wasting my time because I'm not "progressing". Doing roulette as max level for tomestones doesn't feel too good either, because the tomestones are for a gear treadmill that is temporary. All of your hard work means nothing come the next raid or crafting tier of gear.

    I guess one way to alleviate that feeling would be to implement another leveling system. Diablo 3 has the infinite leveling thing/Paragon levels, where even once you hit level cap you still get EXP and when you level up you get a point you can put into some other stat, but that doesn't feel too good because you're not on a journey with a tangible "end goal"; you just level forever. GW2 has a similar system called masteries, where the points can be used on a completely different talent tree, and it feels better because there is a tangible end goal (earn all of the masteries). The problem is that FFXIV doesn't do talent trees or anything.

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  2. #48702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I guess it's the feeling that you are "completing" something; when you level up jobs it feels good because you know you're pushing towards having every combat job maxxed out. If I'm doing non-raid content on a max level job, it can feel like I'm wasting my time because I'm not "progressing". Doing roulette as max level for tomestones doesn't feel too good either, because the tomestones are for a gear treadmill that is temporary. All of your hard work means nothing come the next raid or crafting tier of gear.

    I guess one way to alleviate that feeling would be to implement another leveling system. Diablo 3 has the infinite leveling thing/Paragon levels, where even once you hit level cap you still get EXP and when you level up you get a point you can put into some other stat, but that doesn't feel too good because you're not on a journey with a tangible "end goal"; you just level forever. GW2 has a similar system called masteries, where the points can be used on a completely different talent tree, and it feels better because there is a tangible end goal (earn all of the masteries). The problem is that FFXIV doesn't do talent trees or anything.
    Well that and healing at 80 revolves around GCD optimisation to fit in the most damage GCDs as possible whilst having to heal as little as possible. Tanks with their en masse no cooldown chain pulliing, people randomly standing in stuff in levelling dungeons makes healing them whilst levelling more fun than healing at 80 which is essentially apply a dot and spam glare/broil/malefic over and over.

    Your Lalafell avatar is cute btw.

  3. #48703
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I guess one way to alleviate that feeling would be to implement another leveling system.
    Agreed. That's why I liked the Deep Dungeons and Eureka. It gave me something to work on when I wasn't necessarily in the mood to hit up roulettes, crafting/gathering or mount farming. I enjoy the game well enough, though I wish it were bolder in terms of what if offered for the end game.

  4. #48704
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllieNora View Post
    Well that and healing at 80 revolves around GCD optimisation to fit in the most damage GCDs as possible whilst having to heal as little as possible. Tanks with their en masse no cooldown chain pulliing, people randomly standing in stuff in levelling dungeons makes healing them whilst levelling more fun than healing at 80 which is essentially apply a dot and spam glare/broil/malefic over and over.
    That's because Lv80 content is a) undertuned and b) our chars are hopelessly overgeared.
    SE is simply too chicken to make anything except savage raiding even remotely challenging, especially for us healers.
    I agree that the DPS button mashing sucks. That's not why I rolled a healer. <_<

  5. #48705
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Because that is exactly what happens to the player - The more good deeds you do and the more your reputation as the Warrior of Light grows, the more powerful you become.

    It's even mechanically reinforced, you do quests for people in need, you get XP that allows you to acquire more power. While King whats'-his-name needs a catalyst to transform into a primal Shiva only needed to accept the power that was offered IIRC. It leaves us, the player, in a place where we're theoretically one level up away from becoming the same.

    It's one of the few times where the games mechanics line up with the story, which is probably why it's one of the few plot points I actually cared to remember
    The WoL is not a summoned being (at least that we know of yet) so this is not what is happening. The will of the summoners is what gives a primal their appearance and powers, and aether is used as the material to manifest that will in physical form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    5.0 I'm surprised that after the Eighth Umbral Calamity, the WoL wasn't summoned to deliver the people out of the age of war. The WoL's name held such weight that even the Namazu on the other side of the continent traveled to help out the Ironworks. Even centuries later, people sat around campfires retelling the adventures of the WoL. Given the disposition of the summon, there's a good chance that the Primal of Light wouldn't go around tempering people (except maybe if was asked to temper his new party members, not to control them but to protect them from being tempered by someone else). The Primal of Light wouldn't be a danger to the world (besides being a black hole for aether, but it could be argued that would be acceptable given the circumstances).
    I mean if people revered the WoL that much it makes sense they never tried to make a primal out of him. Why would they do exactly the one thing the WoL spent his entire life preventing/stopping, it would be an insult to his legacy.
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  6. #48706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    That's because Lv80 content is a) undertuned and b) our chars are hopelessly overgeared.
    SE is simply too chicken to make anything except savage raiding even remotely challenging, especially for us healers.
    I agree that the DPS button mashing sucks. That's not why I rolled a healer. <_<
    They're capable of it. Some of the ultimate mechanics really are evil when you're doing early prog before a lot of the resources are up. They just don't because unfortunately it's not what they want their endgame to be. It could be so much more than it is, but their vision does not compute with ours.

  7. #48707
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllieNora View Post
    They're capable of it. Some of the ultimate mechanics really are evil when you're doing early prog before a lot of the resources are up.
    I was talking about non raiding content. That is a joke in difficulty, sadly.
    For those of us that no longer raid, there isn't much out there in terms of being able to apply player skill.

  8. #48708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I was talking about non raiding content. That is a joke in difficulty, sadly.
    For those of us that no longer raid, there isn't much out there in terms of being able to apply player skill.
    Yeah I know, I was just sort of making the point that SE have "still got it" in terms of knowing what stuff that's difficult to do looks like, they're just choosing to go a different way in their MMO.

  9. #48709
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllieNora View Post
    Yeah I know, I was just sort of making the point that SE have "still got it" in terms of knowing what stuff that's difficult to do looks like, they're just choosing to go a different way in their MMO.
    They simply copy WoW in that respect.

  10. #48710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I was talking about non raiding content. That is a joke in difficulty, sadly.
    For those of us that no longer raid, there isn't much out there in terms of being able to apply player skill.
    They could start by doing challenging singleplayer content, like WoW's mage tower challenges; would be pretty straightforward to create one fight for each role (tank, healer, melee dps, ranged). Basically progression on a raid boss but without the stress of having to organize your schedule and guild drama and stuff. Could also do challenging 4 man content.

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  11. #48711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    They could start by doing challenging singleplayer content, like WoW's mage tower challenges; would be pretty straightforward to create one fight for each role (tank, healer, melee dps, ranged). Basically progression on a raid boss but without the stress of having to organize your schedule and guild drama and stuff. Could also do challenging 4 man content.
    No thanks to the single player challenges. I do not play an MMO for that. It is my experience that this type of content is very class dependent. Especially if they make you go in with some sort of AI companion. I still have grey hairs from WoW's implementation. ^^

    Challenging 4man content that can be done on a casual schedule with friends?
    Yes please but no race against the clock.

  12. #48712
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    I'd be down for more types of content. I think they have a lot of room in between current dungeon design and savage/ultimate. Current content lacks teeth. Challenging 4 man dungeons or even full boss encounters would be cool. You could even add in 8 man challenging dungeon. It might open up encounter design a little if you had a zone to work with.

    I disagree though with race against the clock. Obviously that shouldn't be the default, but if it fits for the encounter and is more than just zerging I think it could be done well. I still remember doing 45min Strat runs in WoW before everyone had gear and that was pretty fun!

  13. #48713
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    Making timed content results in people min-maxing and only bringing the best classes unless you're playing with friends who don't care that you're playing a suboptimal class. It'd definitely make the game more toxic and probably make ACT harassment a lot worse.

  14. #48714
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    I guess it would depend on how tight they make the timers and if they have mechanics that completely hose out either ranged or melee. I've heard gloom and doom about certain classes not being welcome in savage raiding or being "sub-optimal" for years and yet tons of people have been getting in groups and getting clears regardless of the job they play. Outside of some jobs being slightly overtuned, like SMN, I think we are in a pretty good spot balance-wise.

  15. #48715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    Making timed content results in people min-maxing and only bringing the best classes unless you're playing with friends who don't care that you're playing a suboptimal class. It'd definitely make the game more toxic and probably make ACT harassment a lot worse.
    Then you implement an element of RNG that makes it impossible to know what to take. Ie you bring two black mages, you get penalized, you bring a dancer, you're gimped if the trait the dungeon gives you makes you better off not cleaving (and dancer ST in dungeons is questionable) and so on and so forth. That is what made affixes so good in M+, the fact you couldn't just play the same comp in every dungeon with every combination, it won't work, but you can -get away- with doing the old CMs without an optimal comp.

    As usual, people just write something off as "its hard content its going to be toxic" when it's no different to optimizing the "difficult" content already in the game, where groups who are still seeing the enrage spears on ramuh feel they're in a position to dictate excluding people because it doesn't fit the comp they want lol.

    As it stands we have a 90 min instance timer in experts which is totally pointless.

  16. #48716
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    I disagree though with race against the clock. Obviously that shouldn't be the default, but if it fits for the encounter and is more than just zerging I think it could be done well. I still remember doing 45min Strat runs in WoW before everyone had gear and that was pretty fun!
    YMMV of course but I just hate stressing against a dumb timer.
    In virtually any game. Especially if the timer is visible.

    I didn't like Zul'Aman bear runs, I did not like the challenge dungeons in MoP and I most certainly do not like the zergfest that is M+.

    Before you ask: no I do not have a problem with a bosses enrage timer. Which is pretty much the only exception in my dislike of timers. ^^

  17. #48717
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    Timed challenges don't belong in a game like FFXIV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    They could start by doing challenging singleplayer content, like WoW's mage tower challenges; would be pretty straightforward to create one fight for each role (tank, healer, melee dps, ranged). Basically progression on a raid boss but without the stress of having to organize your schedule and guild drama and stuff. Could also do challenging 4 man content.
    This on the other hand would fit right in. They already design some class quests to take advantage of what the classes can do so expanding on that to making challenging content people can do solo does fit the casual design FF goes with. I would love this, Mage Tower was one of the few good things about Legion.
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  18. #48718
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    They could start by doing challenging singleplayer content, like WoW's mage tower challenges; would be pretty straightforward to create one fight for each role (tank, healer, melee dps, ranged). Basically progression on a raid boss but without the stress of having to organize your schedule and guild drama and stuff. Could also do challenging 4 man content.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    I'd be down for more types of content. I think they have a lot of room in between current dungeon design and savage/ultimate. Current content lacks teeth. Challenging 4 man dungeons or even full boss encounters would be cool. You could even add in 8 man challenging dungeon. It might open up encounter design a little if you had a zone to work with.
    Eh, I see no way to do truly challenging 4 player content. You could certainly design 4 man content with teeth (he'll we had it before people complained they were too hard back in ARR), but truly challenging? Not so sure. I think with healer/tank toolkits it'd just be more binary "this much throughput, then hardcast DPS spells, cooldown here else wipe, etc."

    I could get on board with them bringing back 8 man dungeons not as a story mechanism, but as say a savage supplement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Timed challenges don't belong in a game like FFXIV.
    Why do you believe that? Nearly every single instance of battle content in this game is already timed. Why shouldn't a challenging version of it also be timed?

  19. #48719
    Reading all about how healing is mostly dpsing and not healing makes me not want to even play this mmo, I used to back in shadowbringers but I always prefered to just HEAL. Not dps as a healer :/

  20. #48720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Why do you believe that? Nearly every single instance of battle content in this game is already timed. Why shouldn't a challenging version of it also be timed?
    You mean the like 90 minute timer every duty gets? That's not really what they are talking about. And because I don't think it fits the overall casual design of the game. Maybe for some Ultimate or Savage encounters I guess but sounds like the timer for those is already tight when they release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayleah Junia View Post
    Reading all about how healing is mostly dpsing and not healing makes me not want to even play this mmo, I used to back in shadowbringers but I always prefered to just HEAL. Not dps as a healer :/
    Ah, a Sylphie. We all start like that but learn to like it after time. Or at least before ShB. Because now the dps part involves just pressing one button. Healing can be fun when you are new and doing something somewhat challenging but once you are familiar with the game is can be really dull or relaxing, depending what kind of person you are lol.
    Last edited by Hyral; 2020-07-15 at 02:57 PM.
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