1. #48821
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Hell, I put together a TOGC raid with just 2 healers so we could grab the top HPS spots too. This really isn't a new thing at all. rDPS exists to solve a problem that didn't need solving.
    "solving"? "new thing"?
    It's supposed to show the contribution of classes that are more support than others and show their impact.

    The biggest flaw is that it takes into account the raid buffs you give to other player - But at the same time disregards the DPS you gain from other players raid buffs. The biggest issue with having it as the primary DPS measurement is that you might be performing everything well, but someone else could be bringing that rDPS value down.
    No.

    rDPS is *your* dps contribution.
    If you play SAM, it doesn't matter who is in your party or how bad they are. Your rDPS is the same in every group.
    If you play DNC, it does matter who is in your party because if the dance-buddy is bad, your rDPS is bad too.

    And how is that even different from the aDPS. If your raidgroup times their raid buffs wrong, or are using more BLMS than MNKs/DRGs, you are doing less aDPS? So...what's the problem/difference? It will always depend on other players, no matter what method you choose.

    On the other side of the specrtrum having a parse where you, strictly speaking, performed better could yield an rDPS result that is lower simply due to how others were playing. Skilled players that can really take advantage of your buffs could sky rocket an otherwise mediocre preformance.
    Yes, and that's what aDPS is for, lol . (Aside from the fact that rDPS is important too for supports in terms of "how do I improve with my group", if you play with the same group over and over.)

    I mean, you have both versions to look at, that's just a straight improvement over what has been offered before.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-07-28 at 07:29 AM.

  2. #48822
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    5.3 MSQ speculation

    Spoiler: 
    What do you think is the deal with Elidibus/Zodiark?

    In 5.2, it was revealed that one member of the Convocation, Elidibus, sacrificed himself to become the Primal, Zodiark.

    In 5.0, Emet-Selch revealed that their names were titles, and that just because one person has the title now doesn't mean that they had it in the past. So a lot of people thought that the original Elidibus is gone, and that the new Elidibus was someone promoted to his title of office.

    But, also in 5.0, Emet-Selch said that he and two other Ascians dodged the sundering: Elidibus, and Lahabrea. So an Elidibus who was elevated to that title of office before the sundering could be the one walking around today.

    Also, in the 5.3 trailer, Y'shotla says "Having drawn your strength from such a cacaphony of voices, can you truly be sure that you speak with your own?". This implies that the Elidibus walking around today is, indeed, the Elidibus who sacrificed himself to become Zodiark, before the sundering. Also, in Mr. Happy's podcast, it was pointed out that while all of the other Ascians constantly tout their devotion to Zodiark, Elidibus never talks about Zodiark, only about serving the Convocation. That'd line up with Zodiark being summoned to obey the will of the Convocation.

    So, if the Elidibus walking around today is Zodiark, how do we reconcile that with 3.2? The Word of the Mother said that Hydaelyn banished Zodiark to the moon, then sundered the universe into 14. So there should be 1/14th of Zodiark on the moon of each Reflection. How can there be both a singular, unsundered Elidibus walking around on the planet, and 1/14th of a sundered Zodiark trapped on the moon of each reflection?


    The only thing I can think of is that Zodiark's spirit or soul and Elidibus are two separate entities. IIRC, from the Ifrit story arc in 2.0 ARR, when a primal dies, their spirit/soul doesn't die. Ifrit hard mode is the same Ifrit as before. They're still hanging around in the lifestream, waiting to be resummoned. And Ysalye was able to summon a primal into herself. So it could be that while Elidibus is walking around, he is able to summon 8/14ths of Zodiark's spirit/soul into himself, and there are 6 1/14ths of Zodiark's essence trapped on the moons?

    ... Except this explanation seems to contradict later lore, which seems to imply that primal spirits/souls don't hang around in the lifestream waiting to be resummoned, and that each primal is the creation of thought. So even if a primal was resummoned, it's not the same primal as before.

    Hm...

  3. #48823
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    rDPS is *your* dps contribution.
    If you play SAM, it doesn't matter who is in your party or how bad they are. Your rDPS is the same in every group.
    If you play DNC, it does matter who is in your party because if the dance-buddy is bad, your rDPS is bad too.
    This is precisely the problem though. The Samurai in your example could line up their cooldowns well, fit everything into and handle boss mechanics well and end up with the same rDPS as another Samurai who just used everything when they're on cooldown.

    They could both have the same rDPS while having wildly different actual DPS.

    This is a very dangerous set of data to have. By pushing rDPS as the primary measurement you're encouraging players to completely disregard how much actual DPS they're doing to parse well.

    It doesn't provide you with any actionable feedback for improvement, barring any major failures, and can be used to hide a multitude of sins. The only useful information it provides is how much DPS came from raid buffs, which while useful to have, is not exactly critical information when you're not hitting an enrage timer.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    (Aside from the fact that rDPS is important too for supports in terms of "how do I improve with my group", if you play with the same group over and over.)
    And the answer isn't something rDPS would provide. It tells you how much you contributed to your party members DPS, sure. What they do with your buffs however is on them, and there are so many variables to take into account that it can't be boiled down to a simple metric.

    The answer, however can be served up nice and simple. You don't. How well things improve and scale is on everyone else, not you. Outside of stacking your cooldowns with everyone else, you can only improve your own play and your own actual DPS output - Not that of others.

  4. #48824
    You are currently trying to tell me that 3 sets of information < 1 set of information (which is also included in the 3 sets from before)



    How would *you* read this, knowing I was playing with the same people and classes (AST, RDM, DNC, BLM - GNB, WAR, WHM and ME(SAM))? what would you read if you only had the green box?

    btw:
    1. No dancer buff
    2. Dancer buff
    3. Dancer buff

    You would have to look at the logs themselves too but you can already read something out of that.

    You can clearly read why my individual performance of 3# is so much worse than 1# or even 2# without having to glance at group composition or who has gotten what buff.
    Either way, rDPS and aDPS are used to evaluate supporters and how much the group managed to use your supporters.
    The SAMs can look at all 3 metrics and understand how much the group did improved him (or how much use he got out of it) and glance over what he did good/bad on his own - instead of literally not having any info about it whatsoever.

    since I didn't have a dancer buff in #1, aDPS tells me I did more DPS on my own or I used the raid buffs better,
    since rDPS is higher in #1, it tells me the raid buffs weren't really what's causing it, it was me playing better.
    since aDPS increased less than rDPS, it means buffs were used more poorly (or have been more poorly applied) compared to 2#
    But the difference in DPS is so little, I'd say RNG is involved too.


    In the end, you have to look at the individual log anyway, so lets not pretend you can "improve" on just that alone. No matter what metric you use, because, again, what's the difference? You will always depend on other players and how they perform - no matter what you do. And the 3 metrics won't show anything about that.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-07-28 at 10:41 PM.

  5. #48825
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    Whilst on the subject of RDPS. Our Samurai reached the promised land on e7s on reclears last night and I couldn't even fucking join him because our DRG dced on Tornados and the RDM sacrificed himself twice to make sure we could finish the clear.

    :blobsad:

  6. #48826
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    How would *you* read this, knowing I was playing with the same people and classes (AST, RDM, DNC, BLM - GNB, WAR, WHM and ME(SAM))? what would you read if you only had the green box?
    I would not read it at all.
    DPS number is only a quick indicator to see whether I ended up in the "to be expected" range or whether there might be sth up that I missed during combat.
    Any actual analysis and improvements come from looking far deeper into the log.

    Try 1 vs 2 have a delta of 230 aDPS. That may be crit luck / having to move at a more inopportune moment etc.
    TBH: I wouldn't even bother researching that tiny of a difference. Not worth my time.

  7. #48827
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I would not read it at all.
    DPS number is only a quick indicator to see whether I ended up in the "to be expected" range or whether there might be sth up that I missed during combat.
    Any actual analysis and improvements come from looking far deeper into the log.

    Try 1 vs 2 have a delta of 230 aDPS. That may be crit luck / having to move at a more inopportune moment etc.
    TBH: I wouldn't even bother researching that tiny of a difference. Not worth my time.
    Exactly, and when you glance over at #3 and would only look at parsed DPS, you'd think they are equal too.
    But aDPS and rDPS show that #3 is much worse than #2 and #1.

    As mentioned a few times by now. Neither number will tell you "I have to delay XY by 3 seconds to get the buff in".
    But you can see at a glance that something is wrong that is worth looking for if you are interested in finding out what was wrong.

  8. #48828
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    From others posts and threads I've seen you on, we are of one mind about this game. So I'm not surprised your idea sounds really fun to me and nobody else lol. I'm not sure how parsing works, never really bothered with it, but by what little I can infer from other people talking about it what you are doing is kind of like those "ghost trials" in racing games where you compare your own performance with your previous best and try to beat it. I might start looking into this if that's what it is, really sounds like something I could sink some time into. Especially once I get all my jobs to 80.
    You're not alone! Leveling with spotify on is really fun, and I just wish I could parse myself and see my numbers, but I play on Ps4, so no tools for me

  9. #48829
    The more I look at this screenshot they gave us, the more hints I see. (or maybe I'm grasping at straws? No spoilers, just my own speculation)



    If you count the ancients, it makes 13. The hue of the image suggests the WoL is reliving a memory via the echo. We know the 14th abandoned the group over a difference of opinion on how to deal with the calamity. Could it be we're reliving the point of view of the 14th being stared down by the other 13 convocation members? It was hinted in 5.0 that the WoL was the 14th member of the convocation that left the group, so it could be our own memory of a previous life. But still, knowing Yoshi, it could just as well be the memory of someone else we're experiencing. Like Elidibus. Could Elidibus be the 14th instead? (The new/current Elidibus, not the predecessor that was the catalyst for Zodiark) It's certainly curious when you consider how different Elidibus is from all the other Ascians. He plainly tells Varis that if he wants to kill his fellow dark robed ascians, he wouldn't stand in his way. Makes you wonder.

  10. #48830
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merie View Post
    It was hinted in 5.0 that the WoL was the 14th member of the convocation that left the group, so it could be our own memory of a previous life
    We're the partially reconstructed 14th member, yes.
    That much has been clear since 5.0 when a certain someone recognizes us.

    However, we do not have the memories of the 14th, so we don't need to worry about switching to the dark side.
    Remember though, Echo does not show our own memory but s/o else's.

  11. #48831
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Remember though, Echo does not show our own memory but s/o else's.
    We could be reliving the memories of one of our other incarnations. Perhaps Unukalhai.

  12. #48832
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    We're the partially reconstructed 14th member, yes.
    That much has been clear since 5.0 when a certain someone recognizes us.

    However, we do not have the memories of the 14th, so we don't need to worry about switching to the dark side.
    Remember though, Echo does not show our own memory but s/o else's.
    It was hinted, but was it definitively confirmed? Hythlodaeus spoke of the 14th leaving the group and also spoke of knowing us and us having a relationship with hades. But while being the 14th would check that box, I think it could be just as possible that that was just Yoshi's usual misdirection to subvert our expectations to surprise us later. It's possible Emet Selch remembers us not for being a peer on the council, but for being a son/daughter instead.

    And yes the echo shows someone else's memory. So maybe we're looking through the eyes of the 14th in the screenshot but not necessarily our own.

  13. #48833
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You are currently trying to tell me that 3 sets of information < 1 set of information (which is also included in the 3 sets from before)
    No, I'm trying to argue that using rDPS as the go-to standard measurement when it comes to rankings is a dumb idea. The fact that you've produced logs where you've done less total DPS, but higher rDPS only helps prove that point.

    Additionally, I've been arguing that it's useless as a self-comparative metric because it doesn't take into account how well you've coordinated and worked with your team. It also takes into account other peoples performance into your own if you're a job that can bring a group buff. It encourages blindly performing your rotation without considering how you're going to optimise, and that's a dangerous precedent to set.

    The metric that really matters when it comes to determining results is just the straight forward DPS one. I don't think it's coincidental that your fastest kill is also the one where you did the most DPS - Even if it's not the one where you did the most rDPS. The kill you did the most rDPS is the slowest kill. Which, for me, is the biggest flaw with rDPS of all. It correlates with your DPS, but isn't always causal. It's useful to know, but should not be the de-facto default measurement used on FFLogs when it comes to rankings.

  14. #48834
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    No, I'm trying to argue that using rDPS as the go-to standard measurement when it comes to rankings is a dumb idea. The fact that you've produced logs where you've done less total DPS, but higher rDPS only helps prove that point.
    It doesn't help at all, because, as mentioned, #2 is a run with a dancer and #1 is a run with the same dancer but he got a different partner

    Additionally, I've been arguing that it's useless as a self-comparative metric because it doesn't take into account how well you've coordinated and worked with your team. It also takes into account other peoples performance into your own if you're a job that can bring a group buff. It encourages blindly performing your rotation without considering how you're going to optimise, and that's a dangerous precedent to set.
    why don't you use aDPS then - which is also used as ranking metric, that will remove single-target buff-padding such as dancer buffs, but will show how well you used group buffs.

    The metric that really matters when it comes to determining results is just the straight forward DPS one. I don't think it's coincidental that your fastest kill is also the one where you did the most DPS - Even if it's not the one where you did the most rDPS. The kill you did the most rDPS is the slowest kill. Which, for me, is the biggest flaw with rDPS of all. It correlates with your DPS, but isn't always causal. It's useful to know, but should not be the de-facto default measurement used on FFLogs when it comes to rankings.
    No.
    It doesn't, like - at all.
    I mean, you are basically doing the mistake I was talking about. You think the try with the most "green"DPS was my best one.
    When it's far more likely (and that's how it actually is) that the performance of the other players was a lot better.
    There is de-facto no benefit of having the "green"DPS-metric as the main metric because it does jack shit about telling you how "well" you used group buffs because it doesn't even show how much ST buffs you stacked, and judging from your post, will lead to false assumptions. So if it's not even better in that regard, why even use it?

    And *not* pressing cooldowns mindlessly, actually means that Dancers/Classes with buffs (which is the majority), get a better result in rDPS and thus a better ranking. So smart usage (stacking and full time usage) of cooldowns is actually incentivised, not the other way around.

    rDPS is group and support oriented, aDPS is slightly support oriented and slightly padding - and DPS is for padding.
    You are only looking at things from a SAM/BLM perspective - or Tank perspective.
    For classes that actually deliver support, "green"DPS is nearly meaningless.

    AST without using cards but spamming a DPS spell would get a better "green"DPS result, but would be a worse player.
    And since the Logs aren't supposed to make people stack 2 DNC with 2 DPS for padding reasons, they use rDPS
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-07-31 at 06:46 AM.

  15. #48835
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    For classes that actually deliver support, "green"DPS is nearly meaningless.
    Aye, that much is true. You miss so much data about the benefit of your support to others.

    Still, if you exclude the buffs to others, you get to see how you performed, which can be obfuscated by rDPS to some degree.
    So I think there is merit in having both values.

  16. #48836
    On a completely different topic, I was doing some achievement hunting in WoW today to take a break with something light before our raid night in FF and I kept thinking to myself... Why doesnt FFXIV make some fun achievements?
    All the achievements are basically "Do dungeons 1 trillion times", "Do this raid 15 times", "kill a bajilion enemies" like this is not fun at all and not something you d wanna chase but rather randomly just get over time. Also the achievement UI thing is a mess to look at. Its gray and dull and looks very unappealing.
    I think the game could benefit a lot from having some more fun achievements instead of long drawn out achievements that you just get at some point purely from playing the game.

  17. #48837
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    On a completely different topic, I was doing some achievement hunting in WoW today to take a break with something light before our raid night in FF and I kept thinking to myself... Why doesnt FFXIV make some fun achievements?
    All the achievements are basically "Do dungeons 1 trillion times", "Do this raid 15 times", "kill a bajilion enemies" like this is not fun at all and not something you d wanna chase but rather randomly just get over time. Also the achievement UI thing is a mess to look at. Its gray and dull and looks very unappealing.
    I think the game could benefit a lot from having some more fun achievements instead of long drawn out achievements that you just get at some point purely from playing the game.
    Yeah, I'm not sure if they don't exist at all tbh, there might be a few, but they could actually make achievements for competitive players too.
    Like "kill boss X before the second Y" - Unlock title: "..of the E-peen"
    Or just some fun ones that require you to do a mechanic in a certain way... like the Ulduar ones in WoW... gosh, these were fun!

    On the other hand... can you look up another player's achievements? I could go without "above the curve" requirements for random savage runs. But I believe players don't really look up FFlogs either when players join the group... so that might not even be an issue.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-07-31 at 12:07 PM.

  18. #48838
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure if they don't exist at all tbh, there might be a few, but they could actually make achievements for competitive players too.
    Like "kill boss X before the second Y" - Unlock title: "..of the E-peen"
    Or just some fun ones that require you to do a mechanic in a certain way... like the Ulduar ones in WoW... gosh, these were fun!

    On the other hand... can you look up another player's achievements? I could go without "above the curve" requirements for random savage runs. But I believe players don't really look up FFlogs either when players join the group... so that might not even be an issue.
    I was thinking of these with the fun ways of doing mechanics like in WoW raids but sadly with the way that FFXIV encounters currently work I dont think this is possible.
    They would have to fundamentally alter fight design to be more reactive and less scripted and do away with the "oops mistake, insta raid wipe" mechanics.
    Currently most mechanics in FFXIV fights have a very specific way in which they should be executed and if you fuck up its pretty much wipe. The only thing that often changes is that people often find different positionings that work for some mechanics but the resolution of the mechanical pattern ends up being the same.
    I remember the bouncy ball achievement you could do in dragon soul which was super fun. It make the fight a ton more challenging but its not an insta wipe if you deviate from the mechanics if you can do it in a manageable way. This would have to change in FF in order for such achievements to exist.

  19. #48839
    Quote Originally Posted by granyala View Post
    damn.. Why do i still automatically read that in her voice 11 years later?!

    I've been damaged. .__.
    bbbbbbbbbbbbbbeeeeeeeeeeeetrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaysss youuuuuu

    *******************

    you know it surprises me how many facial expressions you can pull off on your character in FFXIV

    I wish you could choose expressions to be permenant.
    Last edited by Tenjen; 2020-07-31 at 10:43 PM.

  20. #48840
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenjen View Post
    I wish you could choose expressions to be permenant.
    Yes I wished that for a long time. My cat would basically heal with her eyes closed.
    Best you can do is make a macro with 15 lines, giving you 75 seconds.

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