1. #49361
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    So what are they going to do if we get a Garlemald expansion and find out that there's good Garleans who take our side?
    They'll probably be sympathetic to the "good Garleans".

    I think people just think Garlemald is an evil empire because... well, so far the elements we've interacted with have been your usual evil empire stuff, with the handful of humanizing elements like Drex (that conscript who got trapped in Vylbrand and just wants to go back to his family) or Maxima are hardly given screentime and brushed to the way side. Regula is ostensibly a good general but we hardly get to see him in a friendly manner, only really seeing him when he was doing antagonist stuff.

    All other "good" Garleans - Cid, Nero, Lucia - well they're not really Garleans anymore.

    So far, the Bozja storyline has given us the most screentime of NOT EVIL Garleans, which is a shame because it's kinda treated as side material. You only get to read about the Garlean NPCs in their field notes, and they only have a little bit of dialogue in the Skirmishes, and that's it. Lyon and Menenius have had about 3 minutes of cutscene time so far, and Noah hasn't even appeared yet. Kinda sad that my favorite characterization of Garlean characters are in the field notes, and not in any NPCs you adventure with or talk to.

    I kinda wish that FFXIV had gone the Trails of Cold Steel route, where the Empire weren't the bad guys. Yes, they had a bad history and bad rap with their neighbors, but they were people, just like any of the other nations. You had empire affiliated party members helping out and representing their country just as the republic or the various kingdoms had their characters as party members and helping out. Over the course of the series, you go to travel to adventure through every nation, kingdoms and republics, and the empire was no exception. The empire is probably the most fleshed out country we visited in Trails thus far.

    Imagine if traveling to Garlemald was like traveling to Ishgard in Heavensward; you're not coming to defeat the evil Garleans. You're coming to help out people. Just like HW, you arrive in town, get to meet the characters, go adventuring around the region, and then eventually help these people remove a few bad apples who are in power. Imagine if you were attached to the Garlemald cast, just as much as to Haucherfant, or Aymeric, or knew them like Francel or Hilda or Lord Edmont and so on.

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    also sad that the Garlean's endemic problem of not being able to wield aether has been completely swept under the rug. I'm not trying to victim blame the people who got annexed by the Garleans, but it seems like no one is acknowledging "oh yeah, these disadvantaged people were nearly driven to extinction. Ofcourse they are they were they are now; it's the only way they could have survived. Hm... maybe we should take that into account before history repeats itself?". Given the mentality of the people fighting against Garlemald, I'm sorta expecting a WW1 situation where the Alliance will come in, trash everything, and then leave without having actually solved the problem, only for history to repeat a few years later.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2020-10-29 at 02:13 AM.

  2. #49362
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Imagine if traveling to Garlemald was like traveling to Ishgard in Heavensward; you're not coming to defeat the evil Garleans. You're coming to help out people. Just like HW, you arrive in town, get to meet the characters, go adventuring around the region, and then eventually help these people remove a few bad apples who are in power. Imagine if you were attached to the Garlemald cast, just as much as to Haucherfant, or Aymeric, or knew them like Francel or Hilda or Lord Edmont and so on.
    I'd love that. But depending on who's ruling the nation, which at this time is Zenos. We'd probably get aprehended as soon as we walked in. Unless we hide somewhere.

    How cool would it be if we were hiding until we reveal ourselves and everyone gasps and is like. "OMG, it's that warrior that has been trashing our armies all over Aldenard and Othard!"

  3. #49363
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    A key writer left the development team back around the same time as HW to work on FFXVI. ARR had pacing issues, but I think it was superior in terms of world building and consequences. We haven't had any meaningful consequences since HW and whenever there's a build up to a major character actually dying, the writers now backtrack and just kill off an antagonist instead - complete with a sad backstory for the sake of 'feels'.

    I agree with Val in that Garlemald's inability to wield aether and the manipulation of their people over the years should be more of a focus. They're the biggest victims in the setting given that they have, in fact, almost been wiped out entirely. Furthermore, they treated the provinces that rose up in rebellion badly to send a message to discourage further attempts in the future and the provinces that rebelled have since been shown to be far from perfect themselves. To the point where, for some, Garlemald's presence was an improvement.

    Another issue, I feel, is that the writers bend over backwards to show a 'respectful' view of certain real world cultures, conveniently glossing over the negative aspects. Yet when it comes to the fantasy equivalent of the Roman/British Empire suddenly they feel obligated to show the worst of it, often in a preachy manner. The Mongolians were not nearly as friendly or pleasant to interact with as the Xaela are, though you never see their culture treated in such a way and they never even bothered to follow through with the criticism of Ala Mhigo's obsession with violence and conquest despite pointing it out multiple times prior to Stormblood itself.

    It's a shame, since FFXII handled its 'Empire' so much better and with much more nuance. With FFXIV being a love letter to the Ivalice games, I was hoping to see Garlemald go in a similar direction and not just end up at the mercy of bland defectors who have turned their backs on their own people and are never called out despite getting the loved ones of many Garlean civilians killed.

    Now that Regula and Varis are gone, though, there aren't any Pureblood Garlean characters left that I actually care about. I expected far more from both characters, but I do think they're a casualty of the HW writer vanishing - and whatever they had planned for Varis' role was instead given to Gaius.

  4. #49364
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Weee officially done with Bozja now.
    Man what a fight 500 rezzes as a WHM. Damn Red Magi.

  5. #49365
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post

    Weee officially done with Bozja now.
    Man what a fight 500 rezzes as a WHM. Damn Red Magi.
    Congratulations!

  6. #49366
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    Huh, everyone here talking like that "Shield Lob story" was proof the game is full of toxic or fragile people but it kind of proves the opposite. One guy was being toxic and complained about it on the forums, and then pretty much everyone disagreed with him. You'll always find "that one guy" but it's not really a proof everyone is like that, specially when no one is agreeing with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    same. i feel like the people who always talk about toxicity are actually part of the problem itself and must not realize it.
    Pretty much. It's like how the same people will always claim they see no toxicity in WoW but anyone who reads Trade for ten minutes or tries to get a BG group to cooperate will confirm the god awful things WoW players will say and do to each other for no reason other than amusement. Not that I'm complaining I enjoy that kind of environment, it was the best part of LoL imo, but can definitely say I've haven't seen that in FF yet after a couple of years playing now. Then again FF lacks a real public chat channel like Trade so the only way you could really run into frequently it is if you are looking for it or are extremely unlucky.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    I'd love that. But depending on who's ruling the nation, which at this time is Zenos. We'd probably get aprehended as soon as we walked in. Unless we hide somewhere.
    I think it's the other way around, because someone like Zenos is in charge now it's more likely we'll find sympathizers instead.
    "I have the most loyal fanboys. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand by Thoradin's Wall and massacre my own people and I wouldn't lose any fanboys. It's like incredible." - Sylvanas Windrunner

    "If you kill your enemies, they win." - Anduin Wrynn

  7. #49367
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Congratulations!
    Thank you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Pretty much. It's like how the same people will always claim they see no toxicity in WoW but anyone who reads Trade for ten minutes
    Yeah I deactivated public channels in WoW back in TBC. I still remember standing in Nagrand, leveling and being so annoyed by the whole "your mother" spam that I searched for the option to kill these channels.

  8. #49368
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I guess I'm pretty lucky then. People talk about toxicity in WoW, but I never really saw any drama in the LFRs or PUGs. Never really seen any drama in FFXIV either. The FC I raid with is pretty chill.
    Pretty much this, myself and my wow guild pretty much semi migrated over to ffxiv to escape the toxic wow community, we've not found anything close to it in ffxiv.

    We still play wow bit ffxiv has the majority interests because the community isn't shitty.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    They'll probably be sympathetic to the "good Garleans".

    I think people just think Garlemald is an evil empire because... well, so far the elements we've interacted with have been your usual evil empire stuff, with the handful of humanizing elements like Drex (that conscript who got trapped in Vylbrand and just wants to go back to his family) or Maxima are hardly given screentime and brushed to the way side. Regula is ostensibly a good general but we hardly get to see him in a friendly manner, only really seeing him when he was doing antagonist stuff.

    All other "good" Garleans - Cid, Nero, Lucia - well they're not really Garleans anymore.

    So far, the Bozja storyline has given us the most screentime of NOT EVIL Garleans, which is a shame because it's kinda treated as side material. You only get to read about the Garlean NPCs in their field notes, and they only have a little bit of dialogue in the Skirmishes, and that's it. Lyon and Menenius have had about 3 minutes of cutscene time so far, and Noah hasn't even appeared yet. Kinda sad that my favorite characterization of Garlean characters are in the field notes, and not in any NPCs you adventure with or talk to.

    I kinda wish that FFXIV had gone the Trails of Cold Steel route, where the Empire weren't the bad guys. Yes, they had a bad history and bad rap with their neighbors, but they were people, just like any of the other nations. You had empire affiliated party members helping out and representing their country just as the republic or the various kingdoms had their characters as party members and helping out. Over the course of the series, you go to travel to adventure through every nation, kingdoms and republics, and the empire was no exception. The empire is probably the most fleshed out country we visited in Trails thus far.

    Imagine if traveling to Garlemald was like traveling to Ishgard in Heavensward; you're not coming to defeat the evil Garleans. You're coming to help out people. Just like HW, you arrive in town, get to meet the characters, go adventuring around the region, and then eventually help these people remove a few bad apples who are in power. Imagine if you were attached to the Garlemald cast, just as much as to Haucherfant, or Aymeric, or knew them like Francel or Hilda or Lord Edmont and so on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    also sad that the Garlean's endemic problem of not being able to wield aether has been completely swept under the rug. I'm not trying to victim blame the people who got annexed by the Garleans, but it seems like no one is acknowledging "oh yeah, these disadvantaged people were nearly driven to extinction. Ofcourse they are they were they are now; it's the only way they could have survived. Hm... maybe we should take that into account before history repeats itself?". Given the mentality of the people fighting against Garlemald, I'm sorta expecting a WW1 situation where the Alliance will come in, trash everything, and then leave without having actually solved the problem, only for history to repeat a few years later.
    I guess the good garleans could be the populares faction or what's left of it after Fandaniel's actions towards them. since pretty much anyone among them not named Asahi were not hostile towards non Garleans.

  9. #49369
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Huh, everyone here talking like that "Shield Lob story" was proof the game is full of toxic or fragile people but it kind of proves the opposite. One guy was being toxic and complained about it on the forums, and then pretty much everyone disagreed with him. You'll always find "that one guy" but it's not really a proof everyone is like that, specially when no one is agreeing with him.
    I don't cite the example as some kind of catch all undeniable proof that the community is cabbage. I cite it as a great example of a divided community and it has many posters and ideologies that clash in the posts and it's an interesting study.

    Yes an significant # of people disagreed with the OP (which is good, because he was unmistakably wrong), but there was also a lot of people who took his side, some who didn't even understand why it was an issue, or others that thought letting them remain ignorant was a better alternative.

    But not only that, the OP continued to blast people as being toxic because they disagreed with him. This type of behavior is prevalent in the community. People who genuinely believe that disagreement is toxic or that asking players to put forth a minimum standard of effort is toxic.

    Disagreeing with someone is not toxic. Full stop. Nor is holding people accountable in group content.

    Pretty much. It's like how the same people will always claim they see no toxicity in WoW but anyone who reads Trade for ten minutes or tries to get a BG group to cooperate will confirm the god awful things WoW players will say and do to each other for no reason other than amusement. Not that I'm complaining I enjoy that kind of environment, it was the best part of LoL imo, but can definitely say I've haven't seen that in FF yet after a couple of years playing now. Then again FF lacks a real public chat channel like Trade so the only way you could really run into frequently it is if you are looking for it or are extremely unlucky.
    To be fair FF14 is the game that had to literally turn it's PVP chat off because it was so "toxic". Which I found hilarious. Lots of confused Pikachu faces the day that happened.

    I can't argue with Trade chat, trade chat is garbage, but I've seen shout chats resume Barrens chat a few times, on a smaller scale.

    The thing is, I played WoW on and off since 2004. I can honestly count on one hand the # of times I experienced genuine toxicity. Now mind you. I've done LFR a grand total of once in my entire WoW tenure. I've come to learn a lot of it exists there from others stories, but considering I always perform at my best no one has ever given me a hard time.

    I run into super questionable scenarios constantly in FF14. I pug savages a lot and it's downright maddening sometimes what you get, 24 mans are hilarious sometimes the people on your team, and in general the misinformation that the community spouts is crazy.

    I pug content all the time in WoW, heroic clears, mythic bosses (usually up to like first 5), and high M+ keys. People pull their weight and are reasonable and respectful.

    TDLR - both games have shitty communities depending on which community you are/aren't a part of.

  10. #49370
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Huh, everyone here talking like that "Shield Lob story" was proof the game is full of toxic or fragile people but it kind of proves the opposite. One guy was being toxic and complained about it on the forums, and then pretty much everyone disagreed with him. You'll always find "that one guy" but it's not really a proof everyone is like that, specially when no one is agreeing with him.
    There were quite a few people that supported the Shield Lobber in that thread, but yes, the majority were against him or at the very least completely understood why what happened in that case, happened. I think the point was simply that those kinds of people exist, and that thread certainly shows that.

    Pretty much. It's like how the same people will always claim they see no toxicity in WoW but anyone who reads Trade for ten minutes or tries to get a BG group to cooperate will confirm the god awful things WoW players will say and do to each other for no reason other than amusement. Not that I'm complaining I enjoy that kind of environment, it was the best part of LoL imo, but can definitely say I've haven't seen that in FF yet after a couple of years playing now. Then again FF lacks a real public chat channel like Trade so the only way you could really run into frequently it is if you are looking for it or are extremely unlucky.
    Agreed. But Trade chat in WoW is fucking cancer right now due to the election in the US.

    I also think people label "toxic" differently, too. I don't think straight up, obvious, trolling is "toxic" unless it's SUPER offensive or horribly inappropriate. It's just a bad joke otherwise, IMO. Toxic means truly harmful, to me, and most of the shit going on in Trade chat and stuff like that is not even remotely toxic, it's just annoying.

    Calling people out for bad performance is not "toxic" unless it's done in a way that's offensive and inappropriate, like saying drinking bleach would be better than playing with X player, like was said in that Shield Lob story.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Pretty much this, myself and my wow guild pretty much semi migrated over to ffxiv to escape the toxic wow community, we've not found anything close to it in ffxiv.

    We still play wow bit ffxiv has the majority interests because the community isn't shitty.
    The community is honestly just as shitty, it's just not as obvious because they can't be as overtly offensive and toxic like they are in WoW.

    Similar kinds of people play both games, WoW is just much larger and has more open rules as far as what can be said in chat.

    But, to your point, you don't see it as much simply because the rules in FFXIV keep a lot of the more overt offensiveness in check. But that causes toxicity from the other direction, where simply speaking out with ANYTHING perceived as negative is immediately blown out of proportion and you're public enemy number 1 for simply having a "negative" opinion or whatever.

    With that said, if you're simply playing, enjoying yourself and not rocking the boat at all, FFXIV is a much more pleasant experience.

  11. #49371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I think the point was simply that those kinds of people exist, and that thread certainly shows that.

    Agreed. But Trade chat in WoW is fucking cancer right now due to the election in the US.

    I also think people label "toxic" differently, too. I don't think straight up, obvious, trolling is "toxic" unless it's SUPER offensive or horribly inappropriate.
    Those people exist everywhere. It's no proof of this game being particularly toxic compared to others or the community being worse than the average issues that happen in any community, even IRL, which is what the people pointing it out were implying.

    Also it's nothing recent Trade has always been like that, unless you are in a dead server. It has more than earned it's reputation over the years.
    "I have the most loyal fanboys. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand by Thoradin's Wall and massacre my own people and I wouldn't lose any fanboys. It's like incredible." - Sylvanas Windrunner

    "If you kill your enemies, they win." - Anduin Wrynn

  12. #49372
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Those people exist everywhere. It's no proof of this game being particularly toxic compared to others or the community being worse than the average issues that happen in any community, even IRL, which is what the people pointing it out were implying.

    Also it's nothing recent Trade has always been like that, unless you are in a dead server. It has more than earned it's reputation over the years.
    Wasn't trying to imply otherwise, I agree with you. It's more a commentary on those who claim FFXIV is not toxic, or that those kinds of interactions/ people don't exist in FFXIV. They absolutely DO.

    I may have been somewhat insulated from Trade previously, as I don't spend much time in the major cities because I'm out questing or in dungeons most of the time. Recently, I've had to spend a bit more time in the cities and even just a 5 minute chunk of time is so full of trade chat diarrhea it's crazy, I don't remember it being SO full of it. I remember it being there, just not quite SO frequent and prevalent.

  13. #49373
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    293K/500K for GSM in Ishgard restoration.

    RNG still sucks and why does it have to be such an absurd number of items?

  14. #49374
    Just found out about it, but this is probably a new low of GCBTW's behaviour.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  15. #49375
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Just found out about it, but this is probably a new low of GCBTW's behaviour.
    So that's why I haven't seen this guy in ages.

    I was received an email that actually shook me to my deepest core. A person had written a message that explained they were going to kill me in person. They had attached not only my local town but had obviously taken the time to invest money in buying information about my house. I later found out out you can pay for this info online, they had my address and house number, later including locations of my family's work places. The only demand from this person was that I stopped playing FFXIV and returned from where I came from because apparently I was making the game worse.
    Jesus.

  16. #49376
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    The thing is, I played WoW on and off since 2004. I can honestly count on one hand the # of times I experienced genuine toxicity. Now mind you. I've done LFR a grand total of once in my entire WoW tenure. I've come to learn a lot of it exists there from others stories, but considering I always perform at my best no one has ever given me a hard time.
    The impression I get from watching Preach's Drama Time series is that most of it happens in cesspool guilds with guild leaders that are on a personal power trip, or that are trying to force themselves into a position where they can tackle harder content when the majority of the players in said guild don't want to be there. Loot ninjaing is optional.

    I've never been a part of those communites, so I can't say for certain, but it seems pretty likely. You've got players who are wanting different things out of the game jumbled together with a ton of egos in the mix - It's practically a recipie for fireworks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Disagreeing with someone is not toxic. Full stop. Nor is holding people accountable in group content.
    I think this bares highlighting, for a game that claims to have a good community it stops the second you enter group content. There's a social contract in other MMO's that you're respectful of other peoples time. If you're not then you should be held accountable for that. It doesn't matter if it's going AFK for 30 minutes at the start of a dungeon or being dead weight, you should expect to be called out on that kind of behaviour.

    FF14's community seems to have never learned that Elite =/= Elitism. Wanting people to at least be minimally effective at their role isn't elitist. I've always found that the players at the top end tend to be a lot more laid back than the ones at the bottom who are trying to make it to the top. The top end players tend to want to uplift the poor players in their groups, but that leads to a ton of problems in FF14.

    It's one of the reasons I've found running ACT so frustrating - I've been in plenty of groups where the tanks and healers are the highest DPS. But instead of being able to link it and use it as a jumping off point for where players are going wrong, you've just got to grit your teeth and pick up the slack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The community is honestly just as shitty, it's just not as obvious because they can't be as overtly offensive and toxic like they are in WoW.
    I'd describe it as being differently toxic.

    WoW players tend to be more upfront and confrontational about issues they've got. In the short term, that sucks when you're on the recieving end. Words can be hurtful. On the other hand, all that really gets bruised is your ego and it's easy to shrug this kind of abuse off as someone else just being an arsehole. Or they're mad because they're bad, whatever. You log out of the game and forget about it, you're never going to see them again. The effects are contained to that one session. No lasting harm done.

    FF14 players are more passive aggressive and look to isolate and segregate players. Rather than attacking you personally they look to damage your relationship with other players and the community at large, either trying to turn them against you or else trying to exclude you from the community. That's a far more dangerous kind of toxic behaviour because it doesn't go away when you log out. It sometimes extends beyond the game to places like Reddit too.

    It's probably why FF14 has more of a culture of silence - No one wants to be left socially isolated and speaking up with the "wrong" opinion can make you a target.

  17. #49377
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    It's one of the reasons I've found running ACT so frustrating - I've been in plenty of groups where the tanks and healers are the highest DPS. But instead of being able to link it and use it as a jumping off point for where players are going wrong, you've just got to grit your teeth and pick up the slack.
    I know how you feel.
    Man I learned so much in the beginning of my WoW time by listening to players I was grouped with.
    That was before I knew sites like EJ or SPriest.com even existed.

    Those were valuable pointers I got. I tried to pass on knowledge as well, some of it was taken with thanks, some was rejected with "U no pay ma sub!!11".
    In FF, I found it to be pointless to say anything. 99% of the time you will just be ignored.

  18. #49378
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    A large part of the issue is that the rules are written and enforced from a Japanese mindset. Understandable, given where the game is made, though it fails to account for an important element. Japanese players, for the most part, prefer to work their hardest to overcome a goal. Exceptions exist, of course, but clear rates for content are much higher over there compared to the EU and NA servers.

    There's also the expectation that every individual must do their part, not just refuse to contribute. In the EU and NA regions, however, this is exploited by some - the mere suggestion of improving or pulling one's weight is treated as a personal attack and there are absolutely those who make a point of deliberately being bad to frustrate and report players who take the bait.

    But yeah, generally speaking I keep to myself in-game and a select group of carefully selected friends.

  19. #49379
    I literally just had a run where the tank clearly didn't know doton was a player skill and every time I dropped it he dutifully pulled the mobs out of it. When I said 'Bro, the brown goo is my aoe there's no need to move the mobs' the healer said quote; "don't be like that he's doing good".

    Don't be like what?
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  20. #49380
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Haha, this happened to my friend with the Bard AoE.
    He said "but it looks like fire under my butt!"

    Naturally the Bard in question was rather grumpy.

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