1. #49521
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    And Ascians aren't evil, well with the exception of Fandaniel maybe, who knows, we haven't seen his entire story yet.
    That's a retcon. Laha "Mwahaha!" brea begs to differ

  2. #49522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    I'm hoping the writers are able and willing to let both the Ascians and the Garleans have a happy ending of some sort.
    Ascians: I doubt it. We nuked the last 3 unsundered, what remains now are only low level critters by comparison.

    Lets face it: the true Ascians are now extinct. So: not much of a happy ending there.

    Garlemald: It's possible but it would be done in a boring way. It would basically amount to us conquering them and then copying our values onto their society.
    I'd like for them to recover from the Ascian influence, get proper leaders but still remain different. Let the relations be on the cool "we tolerate each other" side of things instead of being BFFs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudenoso View Post
    That's a retcon. Laha "Mwahaha!" brea begs to differ
    Not really. They ARE evil from our perspective.
    They do not care about/acknowledge lower lifeforms at all in the relentless pursuit of their goal of restoration.

  3. #49523
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    That's a lot of yikes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    ... How does "the Empire is evil because it was constructed by evil people" justify working for an evil empire to commit acts of evil?

    He massacred my old Scion friends in 2.0. He sent Livia into the Waking Sands and she executed almost everyone there. And then Gaius kept sending soldiers after us all throughout 2.0, even trying to kill Biggs and Wedge. Then he was going to use the Ultima Weapon to start blowing up cities until Eorzea surrendered (READ: commit mass murder). Oh, and conquered Ala Mhigo and was apparently such a brutal ruler that people died trying to escape.
    Attacking the Scions isn't evil just because they are your friends. Attacking the Ironworks isn't evil just because they are your friends. That's as dumb as calling yourself evil for attacking a Castrum or some other Garlean base, all those conscripts were friends and family of someone and you slaughter them. Attacking the Scions was a reasonable action for him to take, they were an obstacle in the way for his conquest. The morality of said conquest can be discussed but to act as if it's just evil is an oversimplification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Starting with Stormblood, the game tries to retcon him as "misguided but not evil", with him shutting down Black Rose and being presented as "the good governor" of Ala Mhigo before "the evil Zenos took over". "Actually, Livia massacred the Scions on her own accord out of jealously!". The game is presenting him as a cool character and a "tragic hero", but there is just no getting around the "he murdered hundreds of people and was planning on murdering hundreds more" part and is working apart of a heinously evil regime.
    The only thing Stormblood seems to have retconned was making Gaius survive, and given we don't actually see him die maybe that was really the intention all along. When was the last time you played through the game? I have a feeling you might be misremembering some things, specially from meeting him in ARR. He's been pretty consistent ever since, from the Praetorium to now.
    Eorzea’s unity is forged of falsehoods. Its city-states are built on deceit. And its faith is an instrument of deception. It is naught but a cobweb of lies. To believe in Eorzea is to believe in nothing. In Eorzea, the beast tribes often summon gods to fight in their stead–though your comrades only rarely respond in kind. Which is strange, is it not? Are the "Twelve" otherwise engaged? I was given to understand they were your protectors. If you truly believe them your guardians, why do you not repeat the trick that served you so well at Carteneau, and call them down? They will answer–so long as you lavish them with crystals and gorge them on aether. Your gods are no different from those of the beasts–eikons every one. Accept but this, and you will see how Eorzea’s faith is bleeding the land dry. Nor is this unknown to your masters. Which prompts the question: why do they cling to these false deities? What drives even men of learning–even the great Louisoix–to grovel at their feet? The answer? Your masters lack the strength to do otherwise! For the world of man to mean anything, man must own the world. To this end, he hath fought ever to raise himself through conflict–to grow rich through conquest. And when the dust of battle settles, it is ever the strong who dictate the fate of the weak. Knowing this, but a single path is open to the impotent ruler–that of false worship. A path which leads to enervation and death. Only a man of power can rightly steer the course of civilization. And in this land of creeping mendacity, that one truth will prove its salvation. Come, champion of Eorzea, face me! Your defeat shall serve as proof of my readiness to rule! It is only right that I should take your realm. For none among you as the power to stop me!
    Your strength is... most impressive. Such power befits a ruler! Yet you lack the resolve to put it to proper use. A waste.
    Such devastation... This was not my intention...
    Heed me... The subjects of a weak ruler must needs look to a higher power for providence... and their dependence comes at a cost to the realm. The misguided elevate the frail... And the frail lead the people astray. Unless a man of power wrests control... the cycle will never be broken. You... You of all people must see the truth in this. You who have the strength to rule...
    Those aren't the words of someone who is just plain evil and wants to commit mass murder and destroy everything. He's a conqueror thinking the land he's conquering is in chaos because their leadership is weak and he imagines himself to be the one man who can fix it due to his Garlean upbringing/propaganda. You know, a misguided character.

    He has been consistent to that idea since then. His words on Black Rose are in line with the previous quotes.
    Fools... What do they hope to gain with this butchery? Can they not see that a rule won through terror will not endure? How many more provinces must they lose!?
    They had been slain by Black Rose–an alchemical invention of the imperial army. When I yet served as legatus, I ordered its production halted and all stockpiles destroyed. Toxic gas is not a tool of conquest, but of extermination.
    There will be no one left in the lands they conquer. No citizens to conscript, no skills to exploit, nothing the Empire needs. And they will call it victory.
    He's still the same man at his core. His concern is not with the morality of the actions taken but the outcome of them to benefit the Empire and the goal of conquest. A goal he still believes to be righteous. His methods may be changing (it would be unreasonable not to expect change after two failed invasion attempts) but the core of his character hasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Ingame, literally every Garlean is either 1. apart of the empire and complicit in committing evil (the least evil was Regula and even he killed tons of people trying to obtain what were effectively weapons of mass destruction, good chance he was going to do the same thing Gaius was going to do...), or 2. a defector (Cid/Nero/Lucia/Maxima, and now Gaius). We have not met one single good Garlean who was working within the system to try to make things better and who didn't cross any lines. Because that's impossible. You can't be apart of the Garlean empire and be in a position of power without being evil or complicit in evil, because it's not morally grey empire. It's a straight up JRPG evil empire.
    I'm starting to think your only metric for evil is killing? Does intent, purpose, circumstance, goal not matter at all when examining someone's actions? Either way if those things matter then yes Regula was until he's killed, Gaius was until you nearly kill him. He defects for other reasons than turning his back on the Empire. The Populares were but I don't think bringing up their defection is fair given they had been working within the Empire until Elidibus decided to meddle himself and brings things to a turning point. And now, well the Empire isn't really even an Empire anymore until their civil war is complete and some sort of centralized government is put in place again.

    I really don't understand why you keep saying they are just an JRPG evil empire when we've seen so many interesting characters come out of there with more motivations than the generic JRPG "muahaha I'm evil" and the reason so many are upset now is because now we are getting generic JRPG evil empire with Zenos and Fannydanny. If the Empire had always been this generic evil entity you think it is no one would be disappointed at this new approach, it would just be expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I think Fandaniel was either wronged in the past and is now incredibly spiteful, or he was twisted by the Sound. I'm not expecting him to become a tragic anti-villain like Emet-Selch and Elidibus. He works as a clown.
    I really, really hope it's not something as stupid as being corrupted by the Sound or any other magical nonsense. Just typing it reminds me of the many times something interesting could have happened in WoW and no, it was just corruption. Hate the idea of it being lashing out due to some trauma, it would be so dull to make yet another Ascian a "tragic villain" again. I rather him have arrived to his nihilistic conclusion through some warped reasoning. Maybe he knows a truth we don't know that changed his world view and would challenge the main cast to do so like when they learned about the Ancients. Something that would led him to believe life has no value and actually have some real reasoning behind it. But to make it just magic, now that would be generic JRPG evil.
    "I have the most loyal fanboys. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand by Thoradin's Wall and massacre my own people and I wouldn't lose any fanboys. It's like incredible." - Sylvanas Windrunner

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  4. #49524
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    ... How does "the Empire is evil because it was constructed by evil people" justify working for an evil empire to commit acts of evil?

    He massacred my old Scion friends in 2.0. He sent Livia into the Waking Sands and she executed almost everyone there. And then Gaius kept sending soldiers after us all throughout 2.0, even trying to kill Biggs and Wedge. Then he was going to use the Ultima Weapon to start blowing up cities until Eorzea surrendered (READ: commit mass murder). Oh, and conquered Ala Mhigo and was apparently such a brutal ruler that people died trying to escape.

    Starting with Stormblood, the game tries to retcon him as "misguided but not evil", with him shutting down Black Rose and being presented as "the good governor" of Ala Mhigo before "the evil Zenos took over". "Actually, Livia massacred the Scions on her own accord out of jealously!". The game is presenting him as a cool character and a "tragic hero", but there is just no getting around the "he murdered hundreds of people and was planning on murdering hundreds more" part and is working apart of a heinously evil regime.

    The one and only justification for Fandaniel not being evil would be that the Sound has somehow corrupted/twisted his soul so that he has no choice to be evil. Really, that's it.

    I think Fandaniel was either wronged in the past and is now incredibly spiteful, or he was twisted by the Sound. I'm not expecting him to become a tragic anti-villain like Emet-Selch and Elidibus. He works as a clown.
    The Garleans were literally bullied for ages by the other races because they didn't have the same capabilities as them. They were treated as a lower race. So when a guy comes around and boosts your technology a few hundred years you would wanna take revenge too. It's like if the Mongol Empire raped and pillaged your lands for centuries, then your country suddenly becomes Rome, except with advanced weapons and machinery. You'd want to put down these "savage barbarians" aswell. From their perspective what they're doing is ridding the world of evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I wonder if we will even get to see those three towers in Garlemald's capital (didn't see any such structures during the Estinien and Gaius segment in capital in 5.0), as seen on the map of Aldenard. Would've been cool if the capital had a magnificent skyline of towers, like that one city from FF8 whose name escapes me at the moment. But it'll probably be a dungeon like Ala Mhigo, or a ruined zone.
    Esthar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudenoso View Post
    That's a retcon. Laha "Mwahaha!" brea begs to differ
    No. You are the agent of the "goddess" who literally destroyed his world and killed everyone he ever loved and cared for, for thousands of years (remember that they were immortal). And not just that but for the past few thousand years it was always agents of Hydaelyn trying to piss on his plans and efforts to bring back his loved ones. I'd be pissed off too.

  5. #49525
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    No. You are the agent of the "goddess" who literally destroyed his world and killed everyone he ever loved and cared for, for thousands of years (remember that they were immortal). And not just that but for the past few thousand years it was always agents of Hydaelyn trying to piss on his plans and efforts to bring back his loved ones. I'd be pissed off too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Not really. They ARE evil from our perspective.
    They do not care about/acknowledge lower lifeforms at all in the relentless pursuit of their goal of restoration.

    Something tells me the ARR dialogue would have been quite different if the Ascian backstory had been decided since the beginning. Ergo "that's a retcon".

    Not one player thought they weren't EVULZ before 5.0 ( or maybe the last tail of SB? can't quite recall if Emet was foreshadowed to being more than a drama queen in the end of SB )

    The only way they could have been more evil in ARR is if they were oozing black smoke out of their pores and going around asking "what is evil?", monologuing about how they are invincible and throwing us down cliffs.

    Come to think of it, they did stink a bunch of black shit out of their bodies. Was that ARR or HW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    He sent Livia into the Waking Sands and she executed almost everyone there.
    Can we appreciate for a moment how amazing it was that they entangled how heavy the corpse was with how long it took to pick it up?
    Last edited by Dudenoso; 2020-12-17 at 08:37 PM.

  6. #49526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudenoso View Post
    Something tells me the ARR dialogue would have been quite different if the Ascian backstory had been decided since the beginning. Ergo "that's a retcon".
    Not at all, his lines in the praetorium make perfect sense, now that we know about it. I'm pretty sure that they had the outline of the story right from the start.

  7. #49527
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    How are you all enjoying the new patch? Without any spoilers is the new story interesting or does it feel like a stop gap to the next expansion? Been playing Shadowlands so I haven't gotten a chance to check it out.

  8. #49528
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    Dunno, haven't finished it. Would't expect much besides stop-gap / build up though.

  9. #49529
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    It's basically just tying up some loose plot threads that have been simmering in the background since the days of ARR. Then just when things start happening, it ends on a cliffhanger.

    5.5 will very likely be split into two parts where the MSQ's are concerned so I doubt we'll get a lot of answers in the first half of the next patch.

  10. #49530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    How are you all enjoying the new patch? Without any spoilers is the new story interesting or does it feel like a stop gap to the next expansion? Been playing Shadowlands so I haven't gotten a chance to check it out.
    Has some fun comedy with the Scions. Nice relaxing chapter. Wraps up the Limsa storyline, your mileage may very on that. Begins teasing 6.0 at the end. Nothing really major happened, though.

    Not an amazing MSQ but it was fun. It took me 8 and a half hours to do all of the new story content this patch (MSQ + Eden + Weapons).

    If you're not actively playing FFXIV for other reasons, like doing the side content or leveling up jobs or raiding with friends, then you'll be fine waiting until the next update to resub.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    5.5 will very likely be split into two parts where the MSQ's are concerned so I doubt we'll get a lot of answers in the first half of the next patch.
    Speaking of which, do we know why they keep splitting the last X.5 patch into two parts?
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2020-12-17 at 10:00 PM.

  11. #49531
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Speaking of which, do we know why they keep splitting the last X.5 patch into two parts?
    Padding, mostly. I kind of get it - it's usually a slightly longer wait between a patch and an expansion compared to a patch and another patch.

  12. #49532
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    hehe - you might be surprised Week 1 pugs are some of the best players I've played with in Savage. better than my static, but we also have a pretty solid static this time, except I have a new co-tank, but he's also 95%+ so this should be a good tier for us.
    Oh man

    I was doing some Emerald runs with my new static. One of them is a completely new player and he picked BLM.
    Poor soul, me and my friends who merged with that new statics are trying to convince him to play RDM or something.
    The logs are so sad. He is obviously not doing so good but trying so hard.

    When you look at the logs, you get like:

    85 percentile
    83 percentile
    77 percentile
    9 percentile

    What should I do? Seems to be a nice guy, he would probably start leveling a different character too if we really told him to do it. But at the same time, I kinda don't want to because it might feel awkward for him or maybe he doesn't truely want it and it would just alienate him
    It's not like he can't get better, but for progress and the first class in this MMO? I feel like it was a horrible choice. He will be dead on the floor more often than not with a class like that. Especially since I head that E9-12 is much more complex than E1-E8 has been so far

    Even I wouldn't play it for progress.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-12-17 at 11:50 PM.

  13. #49533
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    Extreme and Savage content isn't that hard. You don't need to be playing perfect - dodging every mechanic AND doing your rotation perfectly - in order to clear.

    I'd tell him not to worry too much about doing his rotation perfectly, and instead just focus on dodging the mechanics. The static's goal should be to first get consistently to enrage, and THEN start worrying about optimizing damage to get the clear.

  14. #49534
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    I always go as RDM or MCH when learning a fight. Both have a lot of potential for movement/positioning. RDM of course has the benefit of an easy raise which is valuable in progression.

  15. #49535
    Quote Originally Posted by Dudenoso View Post
    Something tells me the ARR dialogue would have been quite different if the Ascian backstory had been decided since the beginning. Ergo "that's a retcon".
    Like Granyala said, those lines make perfect sense. I don't know if they had the outline of the story from all the way back then but they certainly build up from that dialogue aswell. That's what I like about this game. Unlike wow where if you go back a certain character no longer makes sense because they decided to change it up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudenoso View Post
    Not one player thought they weren't EVULZ before 5.0 ( or maybe the last tail of SB? can't quite recall if Emet was foreshadowed to being more than a drama queen in the end of SB )
    Some people still think they are, even after Emet and Elidibus. So I ain't looking too much into it.

  16. #49536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Then just when things start happening, it ends on a cliffhanger.
    Well, at least the DEVs are consistent.

  17. #49537
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Oh man

    I was doing some Emerald runs with my new static. One of them is a completely new player and he picked BLM.
    Poor soul, me and my friends who merged with that new statics are trying to convince him to play RDM or something.
    The logs are so sad. He is obviously not doing so good but trying so hard.

    When you look at the logs, you get like:

    85 percentile
    83 percentile
    77 percentile
    9 percentile

    What should I do? Seems to be a nice guy, he would probably start leveling a different character too if we really told him to do it. But at the same time, I kinda don't want to because it might feel awkward for him or maybe he doesn't truely want it and it would just alienate him
    It's not like he can't get better, but for progress and the first class in this MMO? I feel like it was a horrible choice. He will be dead on the floor more often than not with a class like that. Especially since I head that E9-12 is much more complex than E1-E8 has been so far

    Even I wouldn't play it for progress.
    You give him a chance to improve. If he doesn't do it in a meaningful time period you replace him and explain to him why and make sure to still include him in other less performance demanding activities.

    E9-12 is significantly tighter than 1-8 was in my experience. It's not so much that the mechanics are harder, but their windows are much tighter (like Shiva) on the earlier fights which is strange.

    I actually had to retire. I was holding my group back. I didn't cap tomes the first week and didn't do any research on the fights or what good PLDs are doing these days. I started a new job 7 months ago literally right as covid shut down so I never got any training or assistance with my new role and it's been a struggle bus because sitting at my desk working and then trying to game right after just crushes any desire to be at my PC. I'm one of the few people who doesn't actually enjoy the WFH life full time.

    If anyone is an expert in RPA hit me up

  18. #49538
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Like Granyala said, those lines make perfect sense. I don't know if they had the outline of the story from all the way back then but they certainly build up from that dialogue aswell

    No. You are the agent of the "goddess" who literally destroyed his world and killed everyone he ever loved and cared for, for thousands of years (remember that they were immortal). And not just that but for the past few thousand years it was always agents of Hydaelyn trying to piss on his plans and efforts to bring back his loved ones. I'd be pissed off too.
    Not one of the arguments ya guys are using could have been made before July/2019. Not one of you would have argued that Ascians weren't generic evil villains before 2019. His praetorium lines can be summed as... "mama crystal bad, my god good".

    If you recall, my original point was that the Ascian backstory was a retcon. Not ONE player thought they were anything more than those evil asshats before ShB

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Not at all, his lines in the praetorium make perfect sense, now that we know about it. I'm pretty sure that they had the outline of the story right from the start.
    If they had planned for Ascians not to be a cartoon villain back in ARR, Lahabrea's ratio of evil laughter/actual dialogue would be far smaller.

  19. #49539
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudenoso View Post
    If they had planned for Ascians not to be a cartoon villain back in ARR, Lahabrea's ratio of evil laughter/actual dialogue would be far smaller.
    This is my understanding of the evolution of the Ascians:

    • 1.0: Only one Ascian, Travanchet, who appears in the Limsa intro. There is nothing to imply that there are 12/13/14 Ascians or lesser or greater Ascians or whatever. Zodiark did not exist in 1.0. They're just bad guys who don't cast shadows and wear spooky robes.
    • After 1.0's launch, Yoshida comes in and a new story is written.
    • The ARR 2.0 story was thrown together in 6 months and heavily rushed.
    • In ARR 2.0 lesser black mask Ascians are introduced. Zodiark is introduced. A new Ascian, Lahabrea, is introduced.
    • Crystal Tower storyline was written to be self contained. There was no thought of this being brought back in the main story at the time.
    • ARR patch cycle introduces Elidibus and the Convocation of 12/13/ Greater Ascians.
    • Warriors of Darkness arc for HW is written. There was no thought of this being brought back in the main story at the time.
    • HW patch cycle reveals that Emperor Solus passes away. Emet-Selch had not been conceived of at the time.
    • Stormblood launches, Yoshi-P and the writers begin thinking up the next expansion.
    • Shadowbringers is conceived. Crystal Tower and Warriors of Darkness arc tied into the expansion. Emperor Solus is in a convenient position to be retconned into being an Ascian, Emet-Selch. Ascian backstory is conceived. The Sound is conceived.
    • Stormblood patch cycle foreshadows the Azem reveal.

    My question is: what plan did they have for Zenos at the time of writing 4.0? Was he meant to be a one and done villain for 4.0? Because he comes back very quickly, and he does nothing after 4.0 to 5.3. So by the time he came back in 4.3, they must have had a plan for his involvement in 6.0? Perhaps they came up with an idea for Zenos and 6.0 while writing Shadowbringers right after the launch of Stormblood?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I also want to know what they were thinking for Varis. He was introduced in HW 3.0, and from 3.0 to 4.0 it seemed like they were setting him up to be the big bad of the political/war storyline. But then he gets killed off in 5.0 and the Garlemald story gets sidelined in favor of the Ascian/Sound story, which was written right after Stormblood 4.0 came out. So in the span of one expansion, they went from introducing Varis with the intention to do... something with him, and then in the next writing cycle they apparently just went "nah" and retconned him into being crazy evil and then just killed him off and jettisoned whatever plans they had for him?
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2020-12-18 at 10:12 PM.

  20. #49540
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    This is my understanding of the evolution of the Ascians:

    • 1.0: Only one Ascian, Travanchet, who appears in the Limsa intro. There is nothing to imply that there are 12/13/14 Ascians or lesser or greater Ascians or whatever. Zodiark did not exist in 1.0. They're just bad guys who don't cast shadows and wear spooky robes.
    • After 1.0's launch, Yoshida comes in and a new story is written.
    • The ARR 2.0 story was thrown together in 6 months and heavily rushed.
    • In ARR 2.0 lesser black mask Ascians are introduced. Zodiark is introduced. A new Ascian, Lahabrea, is introduced.
    • Crystal Tower storyline was written to be self contained. There was no thought of this being brought back in the main story at the time.
    • ARR patch cycle introduces Elidibus and the Convocation of 12/13/ Greater Ascians.
    • Warriors of Darkness arc for HW is written. There was no thought of this being brought back in the main story at the time.
    • HW patch cycle reveals that Emperor Solus passes away. Emet-Selch had not been conceived of at the time.
    • Stormblood launches, Yoshi-P and the writers begin thinking up the next expansion.
    • Shadowbringers is conceived. Crystal Tower and Warriors of Darkness arc tied into the expansion. Emperor Solus is in a convenient position to be retconned into being an Ascian, Emet-Selch. Ascian backstory is conceived. The Sound is conceived.
    • Stormblood patch cycle foreshadows the Azem reveal.
    The bolded ones are wrong. They create key plot points 2 expansions ahead. They already thought up Shadowbringers when the HW patch cycle was happening. And if they did that then they already had plans for Emet. Maybe not in fine detail, sure. But key plot points already existed.

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