[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[KrayZ33]

The only "reason" you have is "He waves similar."

Which is not only the weakest reason possible - It's nonsense. It's nonsense because there's so many lore reasons AGAINST why it would be him, and yet you insist "WELL EVERYONE KNOWS IT AND THEREFORE IT'S TRUE" because... because of an animation. An animation that would look exactly the same if they put a completely different race as the one doing so.

That's not how lore works, and your lack of willingness to actually DISCUSS the topic instead of insist that "everyone knows it" is why you won't be getting any further replies out of me.

There is not a single reason against why it would be him, so I don't know what you are talking about.
The only reasons you gave is because *you* specifically don't like thim.

Y'shtola: So long as they remain unforgotten, the love he and his brethren bore for one another and the star may yet be rewarded.
Alphinaud: You said that an ancient came to your aid. But how is that possible?
Y'shtola: A gift from Emet-Selch. He knew of Elidibus's plight. Foreseeing his own death, he made provisions to bring Elidibus's suffering to an end, lest his friend be left to continue the struggle alone.

If we, as you said, just asume that this is some kind of image that helped us out:

Who created the stone? Emet Selch
Who gave us the stone? A creation of Emet Selch - who specifically said that he is giving us the stone, but he doesn't know if he himself wishes to do so, or if Emet Selch intended to give it to us.
Who's to say that the stone didn't have the image of Emet Selch in there - knowing what Elidibus tried to do, he prepared a counter-measure - a one time thing, and it's heavily implied that it's a one time thing, isn't it? Considering how that ancient didn't do anything but grab us out of the Rift.
He even said that Azems stone has the power to summon the *stars* at his side, and the stars are the 13 other title holders.

The snap, the handwave.. it's literally what is important and the most impactful about this scene and so-fucking-clearly a reminder of Emet-Selch. And you just ignore it because it doesn't fit *your* opinion.
Geez. It's quite silly actually.

I'll leave it at that.

[Xilurm]

The "point" in this is, we're in a megathread and we're discussing the lore. That's literally what forums are for. If you don't like being questioned on something you are struggling to prove as true, don't come to a forum to discuss precisely that. I'm not here to blindly agree with you just cause you want me to.

The only "reason" you have is "He waves similar."

Which is not only the weakest reason possible - It's nonsense. It's nonsense because there's so many lore reasons AGAINST why it would be him, and yet you insist "WELL EVERYONE KNOWS IT AND THEREFORE IT'S TRUE" because... because of an animation. An animation that would look exactly the same if they put a completely different race as the one doing so.

That's not how lore works, and your lack of willingness to actually DISCUSS the topic instead of insist that "everyone knows it" is why you won't be getting any further replies out of me.

Because this is like discussing something about an apple and then you coming and trying to prove it's an orange.

Also the "he waves similar" is enough of a reason because he's the only one literally the only character who does that exact animation. WHY would Square give the ancient that appears that exact same animation if they didn't want to allude that it's Emet? Seriously, have you actually seen the animation we're talking about or no? Because it's not anything random. It's something only he does and no other character, npc, mob, literally any other pixel in this game has done.

You want a legit lore reason? Emet left a memory inside the crystal of Azem. That's it. Because Emet himself created those crystals, and he created the Azem crystal in secret.

Those crystals didn't just happen to coincidentally appear in Hythlodaeus's pocket like Val says in the previous page, Emet put them there in case he died. Why did he do that? Because he wanted Elidibus to be free, yes, Elidibus. Emet knew he was sad and broken, even after his return from Zodiark. So that's why we gave those crystals to Elidibus at the end so he could let go.

Also, how would it be Azem in the first place? Azem is us, so the ancient soul doesn't exist. Did we summon ourselves? If so, why do we appear next to the shade when he brings us back from the void? It makes no sense. If it can't be Emet then by your logic it can't be Azem either.

As to why Emet would help us? Because he considers us friends. He always wanted us to succeed in the first place, he just didn't trust that we were capable in doing so.

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The snap, the handwave.. it's literally what is important and the most impactful about this scene and so-fucking-clearly a reminder of Emet-Selch. And you just ignore it because it doesn't fit *your* opinion.
Geez. It's quite silly actually.

I'll leave it at that.

Wish there was an interview of some kind that would just put an end to this silly argument. But I can't find anything on the 5.3 patch. Maybe there will be something next week at the announcement.

[KrayZ33]

Wish there was an interview of some kind that would just put an end to this silly argument. But I can't find anything on the 5.3 patch. Maybe there will be something next week at the announcement.

I doubt there will be any "definite" conclusion
But it's really just ...unusual... to assume they would add that walk and that handwave and that "snap" .... "just because".
When they could've done a thousand different animations and even more so, a thousand different ways to make the character we just "summoned" (or whatever we did) disappear.
Especially since signature moves like these are exactly why they exist and most likely why this character even has that one.

It's quite ironic actually, considering how he pleaded to us to "remember" and someone is like - "let's just ignore what happened there."

[Fleugen]

Who created the stone? Emet Selch
Who gave us the stone? A creation of Emet Selch - who specifically said that he is giving us the stone, but he doesn't know if he himself wishes to do so, or if Emet Selch intended to give it to us.
Who's to say that the stone didn't have the image of Emet Selch in there - knowing what Elidibus tried to do, he prepared a counter-measure - a one time thing, and it's heavily implied that it's a one time thing, isn't it? Considering how that ancient didn't do anything but grab us out of the Rift.

COULD it? Yes.

However, that's not what we're told the stone does. We're told the stone holds the memories and powers of Azem, the 14th convocation member, who wasn't supposed to get a stone created for him because he willfully left the Convocation. We're DIRECTLY told the stone is used to restore a new Convocation member to status, should one fall.

Emet-Selch had his own constellation stone. If we were carrying Emet-Selch's stone, we could say the Shade was likely Emet-Selch - But we weren't. In addition, if Emet-Selch can just return from the Lifestream whenever he pleased, why would Emet-Selch need his own Constellation stone? He never NEEDS to be restored - He can just come back at any time, even if he dies and returns to the Lifestream.

So why do you believe that's what it does, when it's DIRECTLY said to do something different?

He even said that Azems stone has the power to summon the *stars* at his side, and the stars are the 13 other title holders.

Then why do the other Convocation members not show up? Why just Emet Selch?

Because the "stars" refers to your allies. It's why he summons US from beyond the rift, and not anyone else, because as the users of the stone, WE are the allies in this situation.

The snap, the handwave.. it's literally what is important and the most impactful about this scene and so-fucking-clearly a reminder of Emet-Selch. And you just ignore it because it doesn't fit *your* opinion.

I ignore it because I realize literally any model can use any animation, yes. It's a lazy wave. You're trying VERY hard to make this so important, when it isn't.

Geez. It's quite silly actually.

I'll leave it at that.

Sorry, but if anyone here is being silly, it's you. You presume the stone has powers beyond what we're told it had, you presume he is alive when he's clearly shown dead, you presume he can bring himself back to life despite the MASSIVE consequences that would have on the story at large, and you ignore that... a wave... is in no way indicative of who a person is.

All to deny a possibility.

That's what I'd call silly.

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It's quite ironic actually, considering how he pleaded to us to "remember" and someone is like - "let's just ignore what happened there."

I find it ironic that he'd tell us to "remember us" and then have every ability to, you know. Not die, and remain as long as he pleased.

Why am I remembering him? He's literally eternal. Even if he dies, he's never actually dead according to you, cause dead things return to the lifestream and he can just DECIDE to come back. His entire ending is ruined if you presume he's not dead like you do.

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Also, how would it be Azem in the first place? Azem is us, so the ancient soul doesn't exist. Did we summon ourselves? If so, why do we appear next to the shade when he brings us back from the void? It makes no sense. If it can't be Emet then by your logic it can't be Azem either.

You clearly haven't read any of my posts, as I've already explained that in great detail. If you can't be assed to listen, I can't be assed to explain over and over.

Simple:

We didn't summon anyone.

In fact, summoning wasn't done by us at all. We activated the crystal, which houses the memories and powers of Azem. In MY opinion, this is what created the image of the Ancient we see. (Hence why, to me, it is Azem.) Note; I didn't say it stored the power of SUMMONING which Azem had. Azem was an Ascian. That also means he held the power to traverse the rift between worlds.

Thus, the shade traverses the rift, and with a snap of his fingers, summons his "allies" (Us, the people who activated the crystal) using the power of Azem, to him.

The shade isn't a living being. It's a manifestation of the crystal. The shade holds the power of Azem, because that's what the Crystal does - grants the power of Azem to a being who is to become Azem in the Convocation.

This still fits your "Emet-Selch left it for us to find later" theory, AND doesn't ignore what we are directly told in game - Which is what the use of Azem's crystal is.

[Xilurm]

I find it ironic that he'd tell us to "remember us" and then have every ability to, you know. Not die, and remain as long as he pleased.

Why am I remembering him? He's literally eternal. Even if he dies, he's never actually dead according to you, cause dead things return to the lifestream and he can just DECIDE to come back. His entire ending is ruined if you presume he's not dead like you do.

He's a memory, not fully Emet with body and soul.

[Fleugen]

He's a memory, not fully Emet with body and soul.

Then it's just as likely that the Ancient is just a shade projected by the Crystal, thus making it Azem. Because Azem's crystal holds Azem's memories. Not Emet-Selch's.

[Xilurm]

Then it's just as likely that the Ancient is just a shade projected by the Crystal, thus making it Azem. Because Azem's crystal holds Azem's memories. Not Emet-Selch's.

Is it really that impossible to think that Emet put a shade of himself into Azem's crystal? He created it.

[KrayZ33]

Then it's just as likely that the Ancient is just a shade projected by the Crystal, thus making it Azem. Because Azem's crystal holds Azem's memories. Not Emet-Selch's.

It doesn't hold Azem's memories.
It holds Emets memories of Azem - if anything.

He created that stone, he could've done *anything* to it.

Sorry, but if anyone here is being silly, it's you. You presume the stone has powers beyond what we're told it had, you presume he is alive when he's clearly shown dead, you presume he can bring himself back to life despite the MASSIVE consequences that would have on the story at large, and you ignore that... a wave... is in no way indicative of who a person is.

I don't presume he is "alive" in this scene. The aether that created this image fucking disappears after all.
I presume he is not dead-dead. But that doesn't matter in that scene, does it?

as for the rest of your post, I'm literally to lazy to adress every single quote there because you make some mind-gymnastics, that I don't want to decode and assumptions about things I'm thinking, when I'm not and say things I'm saying, but I'm not actually saying. So please spare me.
There is nothing worse than someone ripping up a post into 50 tiny-little pieces and you have to quote/adress every fucking little thing.
So I will focus on the important bit - the gesture.

I still find it amusing that you dismiss that gesture just like that.
It's funny, it truely is. It's like the most common anime/movie scene/trope you could imagine and you act like it has no meaning and doesn't hint at something.
When you just google that scene, everyone is like "I thought it was Azem but then that hand wave and it was immediatly clear who it was"
It's what every FFXIV player said, ever.
But here you are, holding against the tide. Acting like this wave wasn't done on purpose but used as a "generic animation" (even though no NPC other than him every used it). Do you understand that there is a script-writer - who has specific things in mind when he does scenes like this?

*sigh*
how delusional

I mean, I get it why you believe it was Azem at first, I *really* do. Heck even I myself thought it was "the ancient in that stone" that we summoned. But that hand wave and the way he cast that spell, which you dismiss just like that, *completely* turned it around for just about everyone but you.

I would be less inclined to insist on this matter if you weren't as hilariously confident that it has to be Azem.
After all, there is no 100% guarantee that our assumption is correct (neither is yours), but you sure acted like it when you said that we are definitely wrong

[Xilurm]

It doesn't hold Azem's memories.
It holds Emets memories of Azem - if anything.

He created that stone, he could've done *anything* to it.

I wonder if that's why Fandaniel says his memories of the final days are "second hand".

[Fleugen]

It doesn't hold Azem's memories.
It holds Emets memories of Azem - if anything.

He created that stone, he could've done *anything* to it.

So are you presuming he fucked with his friend's crystal, which I'm guessing, he didn't create JUST for us to find, but likely created thousands of lifetimes ago when the betrayal first happened?

I'm not buying that. He kept the crystal so he could eventually, hopefully, restore his friend. He wouldn't put himself in it - That's not his friend, and would potentially mess with the creation of the stone in the first place.

I don't presume he is "alive" in this scene. The aether that created this image fucking disappears after all.
I presume he is not dead-dead. But that doesn't matter.

You have directly said, multiple times throughout this thread, that Emet-Selch holds enough power over the Lifestream to just leave whenever he pleases, and that's why the crystal was able to summon him.

Either he's alive still, or he's not. There's no in between state. He is alive and can come back, because he has been shown to and has the ability to at will, or he does not, can not, and is dead. Which is it?

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as for the rest, I'm literally to lazy to adress every single quote there because you make some mind-gymnastics, that I don't want to decode and assumptions about things I'm thinking, when I'm not and say things I'm saying, but I'm not actually saying. So please spare me.

That's a funny way to say "I don't have any argument against what you say." but I'll take it nontheless.

[Xilurm]

So are you presuming he fucked with his friend's crystal, which I'm guessing, he didn't create JUST for us to find, but likely created thousands of lifetimes ago when the betrayal first happened?

I'm not buying that. He kept the crystal so he could eventually, hopefully, restore his friend. He wouldn't put himself in it - That's not his friend, and would potentially mess with the creation of the stone in the first place.

Why do you assume that? How do you know? He was a member of the convocation, a master of creation magic among all the Amaurotines. It would probably be child's work for him.

[Fleugen]

Why do you assume that? How do you know? He was a member of the convocation, a master of creation magic among all the Amaurotines. It would probably be child's work for him.

Because he fucked up in creating Hythlodaeus too. Creation magic was just that fickle. All it takes is a stray thought, and presto - A completely irrelevant NPC in the world becomes sentient of the situation around it.

Emet-Selch was not above mistakes.

And I know it was created thousands of lifetimes ago because Hythlodaeus remembers it. He knows what the stones are, and tells us, to our faces, that they were created for the purpose of restoring the powers of the Convocation to new members. They existed as early as, if not earlier than, the day before the End of Days.

We also know they were created AFTER Azem left the Convocation. Because Azem was not supposed to have a Constellation stone (Again - Hythlodaeus directly tells us this) - Emet-Selch created it in secret. (We presume. "A friend" of Azem did with certainty, which HIGHLY suggests Emet-Selch at this time. Though it's worth considering we are Hythlodaeus' "new old friend" as well...)

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After all, there is no 100% guarantee that our assumption is correct (neither is yours), but you sure acted like it when you said that we are definitely wrong

Coming from the guy who started with "I'm 99,999% sure" that's rather rich. Especially since you've continued to update this post LONG after replies already went out.

[KrayZ33]

Coming from the guy who started with "I'm 99,999% sure" that's rather rich. Especially since you've continued to update this post LONG after replies already went out.

I left room for an error, see the difference? And the the forum page doesn't F5 itself. I edit posts, yes? I only reread stuff once I've posted it because the preview is small, what's the problem. I'm not adding/editing stuff for "Ha gotcha"-moments, if you are paranoid about that.
I usually only add thoughts that explain my thought and try to fix grammar errors and such.
When I see my quotes in your posts however, I know you read these edits, as I could update my first post now and it wouldn't update yours.

You have directly said, multiple times throughout this thread, that Emet-Selch holds enough power over the Lifestream to just leave whenever he pleases, and that's why the crystal was able to summon him.

Either he's alive still, or he's not. There's no in between state. He is alive and can come back, because he has been shown to and has the ability to at will, or he does not, can not, and is dead. Which is it?

Nuh-uh.
We have little to no information how the lifestream even works.
We know that souls and aether return to it.
Emet is able to grab souls and their aether out of it.
What is possible for Y'shtola should be possible for Emet. Why not?

The stone "summoned" (what other word would you use?) a "shade" (or his soul for what I care) with the image of Emet - since he is an ally and friend (even if you don't like it).
The whole idea of this *addon* is that we found friends to fight and solve these problems. Summoning "ourselves" in the epic climax sounds wrong by design.

So are you presuming he fucked with his friend's crystal, which I'm guessing, he didn't create JUST for us to find, but likely created thousands of lifetimes ago when the betrayal first happened?

I don't know, why you think his failed-creation friend has it and gives it to us? Why was it not lying on the floor like the others? Or maybe *he* tempered with it? Why does Y'shtola also think it has been part of his plan.
What makes you think he can't "edit" something to these stones at a later stage.

[Fleugen]

The stone "summoned" (what other word would you use?) a shade with the image of Emet - since he is an ally and friend (even if you don't like it).
The whole idea of this *addon* is that we found friends to fight and solve these problems. Summoning "ourselves" in the epic climax sounds wrong by design.

Good thing that's not what I'm saying happened at all. It didn't "summon" anyone - It created an image of the memory of the person in the stone. You know, as crystals have ALWAYS done in FFXIV.

Y'shtola COULDN'T leave the Lifestream. Emet-Selch COULD, while alive, due to the fact that he was an Ancient and connected with the Lifestream. No one is denying that.
The jump you're making is that Emet is able to LEAVE the Lifestream after having been killed. You directly said he's not dead, and that he CHOOSES not to come back. When living things die in FFXIV, their aether is redistributed into the flow of the Lifestream - They become part of the river, effectively. This is very different than riding the Lifestream as Y'shtola and Emet-Selch did - Y'shtola FORCED herself into the Lifestream, and had no way to escape. She would have been entirely consumed by it and redistributed amongst it's flow, were it not for the elementals/Emet-Selch yanking her out before that happened.
As for Emet-Selch, I would not be surprised if there is some Ancient magic that allows him to ride the Lifestream unperturbed, or if it has something to do with his soul being entirely unsundered while alive. Nontheless, when he died, his aether too dispersed - To be reaborbed by the flow. He has no power over the Lifestream in that state. He's gone - Just aether, like all other dead beings.

And at that point, if it's just a projection of the crystal, then it literally doesn't even matter at that point who it is. For all we know, it's not even a recognizable Amaurotian, it could just be the most generic of generic Ancients programmed to do that same walk cycle. Which... It is, to be frank. But it's the most generic of generic Ancients with the power and memory of Azem, because that's what the crystal was made for still.

[Xilurm]

Because he fucked up in creating Hythlodaeus too. Creation magic was just that fickle. All it takes is a stray thought, and presto - A completely irrelevant NPC in the world becomes sentient of the situation around it.

Emet-Selch was not above mistakes.

That was an entire city, compared to one crystal. A crystal which he could recreate if he messed up. He didn't exactly have the luxury of recreating an entire city because he thought "maybe Hythlodaeus will figure it out".

And I know it was created thousands of lifetimes ago because Hythlodaeus remembers it. He knows what the stones are, and tells us, to our faces, that they were created for the purpose of restoring the powers of the Convocation to new members. They existed as early as, if not earlier than, the day before the End of Days.

We also know they were created AFTER Azem left the Convocation. Because Azem was not supposed to have a Constellation stone (Again - Hythlodaeus directly tells us this) - Emet-Selch created it in secret.

Not sure what this has to do with the rest. I was asking only about how do you know there was a possibility of him messing it up.

(We presume. "A friend" of Azem did with certainty, which HIGHLY suggests Emet-Selch at this time. Though it's worth considering we are Hythlodaeus' "new old friend" as well...)

We are, that's a fact, there's no denying it because Hythlodaeus tells us that to our face.

[Fleugen]

That was an entire city, compared to one crystal. A crystal which he could recreate if he messed up. He didn't exactly have the luxury of recreating an entire city because he thought "maybe Hythlodaeus will figure it out".

If there is one repetitious theme of Emet-Selch and Elidibus' relationship, it's that they forget. They are VERY concerned that they forget.

Recreating forgotten memories is impossible, they know that better than anyone. Which only makes it MORE likely that the stone was created a long time ago - Because the longer time went by, the more they forgot, the less accurate of a representation the crystal would be.

So no, in fact, he didn't have the ability to just "recreate it if he messed up." For one - He'd have to know he messed up, and thus have used the crystal already to begin with. We have no indication of him doing so. And for two - The longer time went by, the more he knew he'd mess it up, thus, he didn't have the "luxury of time" people suggest.

[Xilurm]

If there is one repetitious theme of Emet-Selch and Elidibus' relationship, it's that they forget. They are VERY concerned that they forget.

Recreating forgotten memories is impossible, they know that better than anyone. Which only makes it MORE likely that the stone was created a long time ago.

Yes, but that doesn't mean he didn't put a memory of himself in there. And if he had messed it up at the time don't you think he would know? He would've fixed it then and there.

[Fleugen]

I don't know, why you think his failed-creation friend has it and gives it to us? Why was it not lying on the floor like the others? Or maybe *he* tempered with it? Why does Y'shtola also think it has been part of his plan.
What makes you think he can't "edit" something to these stones at a later stage.

I'm wondering why you think he didn't always have it.

Maybe Emet-Selch gave it to him pre-sundering, and it was just accurate for him to recreate it as such. As Emet-Selch never interacted with Hythlodaeus of the shade-Amaurot, we don't know if he ever noticed his mistake, and can't say one way or the other on how he would have come across it.

And any "edit" he made was subject to error just as much as any other creation magic. You act as though he was the type to just throw magic at a solution until it worked - He most certainly wasn't. He was the type lost in memories.

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Yes, but that doesn't mean he didn't put a memory of himself in there. And if he had messed it up at the time don't you think he would know? He would've fixed it then and there.

No, in fact, him not realizing that he made a mistake is kind of the theme here too.

Creation magic doesn't tell you when you've made a mistake - The result shows you it. The problem is, the result was a crystal. How is he to know if it worked 100% exactly right or not?

It's precisely why Hythlodaeus is an unknown to him. Hythlodaeus himself tells us as much. "It was likely just a stray thought, "Hythlodaeus would surely realize," something of the sort." You don't KNOW that a stray thought has invaded your creation - It just does. And the result is the result regardless.

This is why the Final Days were so dangerous. With creation magic running unchecked, "stray thoughts" of fears and dangers crept into every creation.

[Thestrawman]

Then it's just as likely that the Ancient is just a shade projected by the Crystal, thus making it Azem. Because Azem's crystal holds Azem's memories. Not Emet-Selch's.

That's incorrect. The memory crystals of the convocation are from the unsundered ascians alone. It's their memories of the other members not from the members themselves. If you wanted a good question to ask it would be when was Azem's crystal made.

[KrayZ33]

Good thing that's not what I'm saying happened at all. It didn't "summon" anyone - It created an image of the memory of the person in the stone. You know, as crystals have ALWAYS done in FFXIV.

That's the same thing? It doesn't matter if it's a memory, image or a summon. You are saying it's Azem. Which we know is "us".
So we helped ourselves, which is not what this addons is about.
The memory of the person in the stone is *our* memory (or rather Emet's memory of us because it's made by *him* to give sundered souls the memory back, it's not like it's "our" stone).
I also feel like saying "it didn't summon anything" and "it's just a memory" falls flat on the nose just by the simple fact that this "memory" actually does something in the physical realm. It strictly downplays the impact that "thing" had when it helped us. It wasn't some kind of "flashback" we had in our mind. It was a being capable of interfering with the Rift.
A "summon" is quite the word I'd use.

Y'shtola COULDN'T leave the Lifestream. Emet-Selch COULD, while alive, due to the fact that he was an Ancient and connected with the Lifestream. No one is denying that.
The jump you're making is that Emet is able to LEAVE the Lifestream after having been killed. You directly said he's not dead, and that he CHOOSES not to come back. When living things die in FFXIV, their aether is redistributed into the flow of the Lifestream - They become part of the river, effectively. This is very different than riding the Lifestream as Y'shtola and Emet-Selch did - Y'shtola FORCED herself into the Lifestream, and had no way to escape. She would have been entirely consumed by it and redistributed amongst it's flow, were it not for the elementals/Emet-Selch yanking her out before that happened.
As for Emet-Selch, I would not be surprised if there is some Ancient magic that allows him to ride the Lifestream unperturbed, or if it has something to do with his soul being entirely unsundered while alive. Nontheless, when he died, his aether too dispersed - To be reaborbed by the flow. He has no power over the Lifestream in that state. He's gone - Just aether, like all other dead beings.
.[/B]

You misunderstand, I'm not saying Y'shtola pulled herself out of it.
I'm using her as an example that souls can be pulled out of it. Even if by sheer miracle.
Emet has a specific affinity with the Underworld/Lifestream. You'd think that if anyone can return from death (even if just for a moment), it would be him.
And I'm not saying he is alive here btw. before that comes up again.
I'm saying that death isn't the end in this fantasy game, as souls are eternal and reappear.