1. #49761
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    That's normal. Most people can't be arsed to take it seriously. You were making it sound as if you wiped constantly.
    To clarify, I never said wipe. I just said dying consistently. In a group of what...30-40 people, always having 5-10 dead is consistent to me.

  2. #49762
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    I m just really baffled by their decision to split healer roles. Back in ShB they said they did not release a 4th healer because they didnt want to make the division between barrier and pure healers and thus they also abolished strict main tanks and off tanks. And now they publicly announced that they are balancing and designing with this in mind. Like... a little weird of an announcement.
    I think the big issue here is that while they didn't WANT to do it, they genuinely saw no way out. Healing balance and gameplay has been an incredibly touchy subject over the past 3 and a half years.

    I've long advocated for switching the tank/healer meta completely. Make MP management a real thing and then pepper in one other management factor per job. Give encounters more rapidly incoming damage and give healers tools to handle them more efficiently and more quickly, allowing for them to choose how to handle it. It's easy, but expensive to burst heal a tank from low HP to full. This allows coordination between healers, if one is destabilized (i.e. low on mana) they can pivot to healing slower and letting the other healer handle the critical components since they have more margin for error.

    To supplement that, let tanks have control of their durability. Not with some bland toggle switch or 3 minute cooldowns, but actual effects and oGCDs and some kinda rotational mitigation where they have choices on how much damage to sacrifice for additional durability to help stabilize healers. Not like a HW/StB situation where 100% offense all the time if capable, but real consequences for making mistakes. Not instakills, but things that ramp pressure up.

    Naturally this requires a significant overhaul to job and encounter design, but it scratches the more dynamic itch I've been asking for.

    For instance for SCH - you could treat the fairy as a healing battery. It does smart healing itself and has it's own MP (and ways to replenish it and burn it), but can also be used as a Innervate type of effect to give the SCH or other healer a burst of MP at the cost of the Fairy's effectiveness. That could be that jobs management aspect. WHM could have things like where the more HoTs actively rolling enable faster cast times or more efficient casts, so trying to keep that is optimal. AST - could have a reworked card system that isn't booty (no input here no solution). Sage could fill a DPS ish niche like Disc Priest where casting offensive spells grants free or reduced cost healing/damage and vice versa, but pending health and stability would have to sacrifice it's more methodical and efficient playstyle for the sake of the pull.

    @StrawberryZebra - Just some ideas.

  3. #49763
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Agreed 100% on the mechanics though. I would hope that with a DoT oriented melee they would stray from the rote combo based ones they already have. Monk and Dragoon both have DoT's that are part of their "core" rotation, so having another class that plays similarly but just does less damage with their melee attacks and relies instead on the damage from their DoT's would be boring. The game play would need to be fundamentally different from the other melee jobs for me to want to play it.
    The idea would be that managing their DoTs would be the main part of their gameplay. It wouldn't be a small part of their rotation, it would be practically their entire rotation. It would need to function differently by design, DoT classes by their nature tend to be Priority driven rather than have a set rotation.

    I'm not saying that such a Job should exist within FF14, but for whatever reason the game has shyed away from giving us DoT orentated Jobs as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    This will always remain the same I believe.
    I think you're right here - FF14 has found it's niche and it's player base and is sticking to it. Squenix don't want to rock the boat too much incase players decide to jump ship elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The thing is, to make a sage actually a sage in any way, shape or form they'd need to go down something like the discipline priest route in wow, so making a healer that doesn't DPS as a filler, but DPS to heal/shield.
    Thats certainly one way to do it, but the issue there is that healers are going to be spending a good part of their time DPSing anyway, which unlike a Disc Priest removes the decision about if they should use their damage skills or their direct healing ones. It's hard to speculate on what it will or won't have at the moment, so it's not something I'd like to speak with any kind of authority on.

    What I feel more confident on is the current version of the Scholar, and what I'd really like to see is the Scholar having their Fairy be a core part of their game play rather than something that's just there. Remove almost all the Scholars personal healing skills and have almost all of it come from the Fairy. Make all of its heals cost Fairy Gauge, make building and spending the gauge properly the way to play the Job. I think putting the jobs unique mechanic, the pet, as the key part of the play makes it sufficently different from other healers, even if it's performing the same role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I'm on the Crystal Data Center and groups still wipe to Red Choctober and the math robot.
    To be fair, the Math Robot has it's fair share of BS. Like being hit by the rotating moves while clearly not being in the area when it goes off and still being hit by it anyway. The servers are sometimes slow at updating player positions, particularly if you're also pressing a button while moving and I see it catch people out all the time.

    I rarely see people fail at the math part anymore, but most of the players are dead before we get that far on 7/10 attempts.

  4. #49764
    So if I was looking into getting into raiding in ff14, Crystal might not be the best choice for me to stay on?

  5. #49765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    So if I was looking into getting into raiding in ff14, Crystal might not be the best choice for me to stay on?
    Crystal is no better or worse than the other North American data centers. They seem to be the same across the board. Just know the English FFXIV PuG raiding experience is: you really, really want to get your clear of the latest Extreme trial or savage raid within the first two days of release. Within the first 7 days at the latest. Otherwise, you will hardly see practice parties anymore, and every party after that is going to require that you have cleared beforehand. Trying to come in late and learn the raid through PuGing is not a fun experience at all. At least, that is my experience with party finder. Maybe you can join the discord server for your datacenter and get a different experience... but at that point, perhaps you mind as well just join an FC that is recruiting for their static.

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  6. #49766
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    So if I was looking into getting into raiding in ff14, Crystal might not be the best choice for me to stay on?
    crystal is definitely the worst of the 3. primal and aether are both pretty equal.

  7. #49767
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Crystal is no better or worse than the other North American data centers. They seem to be the same across the board. Just know the English FFXIV PuG raiding experience is: you really, really want to get your clear of the latest Extreme trial or savage raid within the first two days of release. Within the first 7 days at the latest. Otherwise, you will hardly see practice parties anymore, and every party after that is going to require that you have cleared beforehand. Trying to come in late and learn the raid through PuGing is not a fun experience at all. At least, that is my experience with party finder. Maybe you can join the discord server for your datacenter and get a different experience... but at that point, perhaps you mind as well just join an FC that is recruiting for their static.
    This is my experience as well with almost any content that's not easily done through the Duty Finder (random matchmaking). Even if you were able to find a group later, it's very typically players who really don't belong in that kind of content to begin with, either due to their mentality, skill, gear, or all of the above.

  8. #49768
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    FFXIV PuG raiding experience is: you really, really want to get your clear of the latest Extreme trial or savage raid within the first two days of release. Within the first 7 days at the latest. Otherwise, you will hardly see practice parties anymore, and every party after that is going to require that you have cleared beforehand. Trying to come in late and learn the raid through PuGing is not a fun experience at all.
    Agreed. I did manage to get Emerald down late but I had 3 friends with me who know what they were doing, so we formed our own learning party.
    We stuck gold, in 60 minutes we progressed from wipe on the first orb to loot the boss. Never have I seen randoms do that and even my buddies said "this learning group puts our static to shame".

    Since I didn't know the encounter, thanks to my 3 buddies I did not have to be afraid of getting kicked for occasional fails. Still people were very polite even when I made a mess of things. :S

  9. #49769
    The nature of XIV fights is what creates that attitude in the pug community, really. It's even worse than in WoW, which is saying something.

    The fact that - as someone else pointed out - so many fights just revolve around memorizing the dance or else you get one shot and the group wipes to not making the DPS timer causes people to be super skeptical of bringing someone to learn it.

  10. #49770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The nature of XIV fights is what creates that attitude in the pug community, really. It's even worse than in WoW, which is saying something.

    The fact that - as someone else pointed out - so many fights just revolve around memorizing the dance or else you get one shot and the group wipes to not making the DPS timer causes people to be super skeptical of bringing someone to learn it.
    A side effect of Square Enix being a japanese company. They expect japanese patience with noobs.

  11. #49771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    A side effect of Square Enix being a japanese company. They expect japanese patience with noobs.
    I just think its cultural. The Japanese playerbase has a far higher clear rate of savage and ultimate content than the English playerbase, as well as a different methodology to clearing content (in Japan, party finder is for learning parties. You queue for savages through the duty finder, and if the group wipes 5 times or 30 minutes passes, the group disbands). Apparently the Japanese also have a far higher tolerance for grind than the English, which maybe why the Ishgard Restoration and Bozja are so grindy. Fits Japanese sensibilities, but not English.

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  12. #49772
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The nature of XIV fights is what creates that attitude in the pug community, really. It's even worse than in WoW, which is saying something.

    The fact that - as someone else pointed out - so many fights just revolve around memorizing the dance or else you get one shot and the group wipes to not making the DPS timer causes people to be super skeptical of bringing someone to learn it.
    That is my experience, across all pug content, even dungeons. People often conplain about WoW, but damn have I seen some flames in shit like leveling dungeons. My favorite is people complaining that x class doesn't do enough DPS when people are clearly new to it and 5 seconds more or less in a dungeon won't matter to anyone.. maybe japanese people are better in this regard (I doubt it TBH, at least their literature paints them just as much elitist as westerners), but western audiences aren't exactly pleasant under these circumstances. I mean even if once upon a time I could run every dungeon in my sleep, after a year or two even experienced players tend to forget some of the exact timings..
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2021-02-11 at 07:15 PM.
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  13. #49773
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I just think its cultural. The Japanese playerbase has a far higher clear rate of savage and ultimate content than the English playerbase, as well as a different methodology to clearing content (in Japan, party finder is for learning parties. You queue for savages through the duty finder, and if the group wipes 5 times or 30 minutes passes, the group disbands). Apparently the Japanese also have a far higher tolerance for grind than the English, which maybe why the Ishgard Restoration and Bozja are so grindy. Fits Japanese sensibilities, but not English.
    Yeah this is what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

  14. #49774
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    I pushed BLU to 70. Getting a group together for some of the more obscure dungeons/spells is a bit of a pain though.

    I still need to beat Siegfried to advance the quests, too...so I guess I'll try it at the weekend.

  15. #49775
    "flames in leveling dungeons / expert dungeons"?

    If people flame in there, the group must be seriously horrible and might even deserve the vent of frustration.
    You clear that shit while pressing 1 and 2.
    You don't even need healers or tanks (as long as not both are missing).

    Considering how easy it is to get banned or warnings in FFXIV, I really doubt that this is a thing.
    Can't say I've seen anything in that regard in WoW either.
    Trivial content is trivial, no one seems to give a shit, the rest are outliers and probably drunk/drugged or psychos - or both.

    As for japanese PUGs.
    From what I've heard and seen, their mindset is basically "let's clear this", instead of the western approach "let me be the first in DPS".
    They usually play the safe route instead of the "I need to use every global possible" route.
    Fewer wipes, less frustration.

    "Slow is steady, steady is smooth and smooth is fast."
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-02-12 at 06:19 AM.

  16. #49776
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    "flames in leveling dungeons / expert dungeons"?
    I have seen it happen but it is very, very rare indeed.
    I got dissed and kicked for not pulling fast enough in Aurum Vale's first room back when it was current. It was one of my first runs as a tank too.
    Go figure.

  17. #49777
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I have seen it happen but it is very, very rare indeed.
    I got dissed and kicked for not pulling fast enough in Aurum Vale's first room back when it was current. It was one of my first runs as a tank too.
    Go figure.
    I'm amazed you can even remember something so far back in the past.
    I couldn't remember anything from classic in terms of "playerbase". I can only assume shitheads were present then too, because whenever something isn't completely trivial (Aurum Vale in ARR wasn't) people start bitching and are looking to blame someone all the time.
    I mean, we are talking about a time when Titan Hard (or was it extreme? Whatever was needed for the first relic) was "super hard content"

    In WoW
    I think WOTLK was the first time I truely noticed elitism, maybe because I was in a server first guild at that time and grabbed just about every single title there was.
    Jesus christ did we have some (very few) degenerates.

    I mean, we were literally grabbing just about every server first kill possible on a server that had multiple raiding guilds (Nax, Yogg0, MimironHM, Starcaller etc. etc.) , except for Malygos and that Black Dragon which launched alongside Nax because we decided to do Naxxramas first and the other guilds did the Dragons and these guys would still complain about how people play like shit and stuff in our Raid when we wiped. And not even in a constructive manner, but with sarcasm and insults and just overall stupid statements that weren't even theoretically achievable ("I deal XXX-more DPS on my paladin twink in YYY-Gear" and shit like that. Obviously not even meant as an exaggeration when they said that.)
    So I guess these guys exist everywhere, but I wouldn't say that this was a common sight in normal dungeons and stuff.
    I'd go and say it's a common sight in Mythic+ dungeons now, but funnily enough, not in the cutting edge groups, but in the mediocre ones.

    I guess the asshole-ratio went towards the mediocre playerbase in recent years. Most likely players that think they are better than they actually are.
    It's a common sight in this forum too. So I believe it might be pretty accurate.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-02-12 at 08:06 AM.

  18. #49778
    I leveled all jobs, mostly by dungeon roulette. There are tons of people that hawkishly watch their dps meters, which they aren't even supposed to have. Also alot of people tend to lose their cool with F(ail) players. Sure there are some people that go out of their way to be nice, more so than in WoW, but I absolutely can't pretend it's all sunshine and rainbows, like most people tend to about FFXIV. In fact if I had to compare it to WoW I would say there are more extremely nice and rude players, where WoW has just more of the indifferent mass inbetween.
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  19. #49779
    How do you even know they are using damage meters. I see no one *ever* chatting about DPS in game. Not even in Savage content when I pugged that shit.
    People would rather leave when they noticed we don't have enough DPS. Obviously everyone knows who's doing DPS and who isn't.
    You just have to watch the threat bar.
    When I die 50% in and still catch another DPS in aggro who didn't die I know they are shit-tier players and shouldn't be in that group to begin with... but even in these groups. People would just leave and start a new one.
    But that's savage content, not leveling/expert dungeons.

    What server are you playing on? It ain't Shiva for sure.

    It's more likely people are looking for bots or some shenanigans. Because I sure as hell have seen AFKers in dungeons that do basically only auto attacks (yes, just that, not even skills) and are lagging behind on every pull for 10 seconds.

    These guys - I did kick myself. I'd be just as fast clearing that dungeon with a bot though since many people probably don't even have "join party in progress" activated. You wouldn't believe how many people do that in Alliance raids btw. Maybe you are talking about those?



    I don't know man, it doesn't really add up. No one gives a damn flying dime for DPS in leveling dungeons as far as I have seen and it's not like I haven't played my very fair share of dungeons. At least enough to realize that the *outlier* is someone saying something other than "hi" at the start of the dungeon.
    I can say with 100% certainty that the people you are refering too are not present in the quantity of "tons". That sounds so absurd to me, I'd put it on the same level as someone telling me that every second person is queer.

    Most people don't even have relevant gear to measure something. Neither do you have a reasonable point of reference since most classes don't even have their skills unlocked in there.
    I'd be hard pressed to believe it's anything more than your usual "aww darn, this is going to take a bit longer than usual, we got an honest healer over here". Or something like that.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-02-12 at 09:51 AM.

  20. #49780
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I think the big issue here is that while they didn't WANT to do it, they genuinely saw no way out. Healing balance and gameplay has been an incredibly touchy subject over the past 3 and a half years.

    I've long advocated for switching the tank/healer meta completely. Make MP management a real thing and then pepper in one other management factor per job. Give encounters more rapidly incoming damage and give healers tools to handle them more efficiently and more quickly, allowing for them to choose how to handle it. It's easy, but expensive to burst heal a tank from low HP to full. This allows coordination between healers, if one is destabilized (i.e. low on mana) they can pivot to healing slower and letting the other healer handle the critical components since they have more margin for error.

    To supplement that, let tanks have control of their durability. Not with some bland toggle switch or 3 minute cooldowns, but actual effects and oGCDs and some kinda rotational mitigation where they have choices on how much damage to sacrifice for additional durability to help stabilize healers. Not like a HW/StB situation where 100% offense all the time if capable, but real consequences for making mistakes. Not instakills, but things that ramp pressure up.

    Naturally this requires a significant overhaul to job and encounter design, but it scratches the more dynamic itch I've been asking for.

    For instance for SCH - you could treat the fairy as a healing battery. It does smart healing itself and has it's own MP (and ways to replenish it and burn it), but can also be used as a Innervate type of effect to give the SCH or other healer a burst of MP at the cost of the Fairy's effectiveness. That could be that jobs management aspect. WHM could have things like where the more HoTs actively rolling enable faster cast times or more efficient casts, so trying to keep that is optimal. AST - could have a reworked card system that isn't booty (no input here no solution). Sage could fill a DPS ish niche like Disc Priest where casting offensive spells grants free or reduced cost healing/damage and vice versa, but pending health and stability would have to sacrifice it's more methodical and efficient playstyle for the sake of the pull.

    @StrawberryZebra - Just some ideas.
    This sounds very much like WoW's guardian Druid, where they've got some degree of fine control over how durable they are at the expense of having to trade off some of their self healing and offense. Being able to scale defenses up and down as required creates an interesting push and pull with resources and makes for interesting moment to moment gameplay.

    As for MP management - just yes. As things stand MP might as well not exist as a mechanic for healers, even when things are dragging on and you're on res number 40 the chance of ever running out of MP is slim to nil. Which makes having an efficient heal option just strange - You're never going to use it outside of leveling. Ability heals having no MP cost and being oGCD makes them complete no brainers most of the time. Efficiency is never a concern, neither is throughput. DPS is the only metric that really matters because you're squeezing in every opportunity to DPS while doing the absolute minimum amount of healing you can. That's a dangerous game state because it forces the content to always be approached from the DPS perspective only, where things become a simple number and movement check rather than one where nuanced failures can occour.

    I know Squenix has gone on record as saying that they want healers to spend most of their time healing, but those aren't changes that can be made in isolation. They need to come with changes to tanks that mean they need healing too. That means that content needs to be designed in a way where it's dangerous to tanks outside of the telegraphed tank busters, be that just a high constant level of incoming damage or periods where tanks can't have active mitigation running or even giving tanks the choice between mitigation and DPS.

    Those are genuinely interesting decisions to make because they'll shift depending on your group, what part of the fight you're on and what your resources are at currently. It adds mismanagement of MP or cooldowns as an additional failure condition outside of simply getting the dance wrong. If your tank dumps too much of their resources into DPS and the healers run out of MP then that should be a wipe. If the healers throw everything into DPS and can't put out enough healing that should be a wipe. If DPS take too much avoidable damage, that should be a wipe too.

    The current paradigm is too restrictive to allow for complex failure conditions. That really needs to change first if the content is to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The nature of XIV fights is what creates that attitude in the pug community, really. It's even worse than in WoW, which is saying something.
    To be honest, I've found the FF14 community to be a lot harsher for pugging with than WoW. A single failure in FF14 is a group wipe generally. You make a minor screw up in M+ and it's an inconvenience but it's very unlikely to cost you the whole run by itself. Admittedly I've not pugged Mythic raids in WoW, though I find that WoW players are, on the whole, more laid back about screwups than FF14 ones are simply because they're not as costly.

    The only time I've been in an M+ that simply wasn't completable was that time I tried a +19 De Other Side on Tyranical and we genuinely didn't have enough DPS to kill Hakkar. We used all our Pridefuls on him and spent a while trying different tactics, but at best got him to about 20% before he was casting Blood Shield faster than we could break it. It's not even like people were upset about it, the general attitude was "We'll come back with more gear and try again". In FF14 if the group wipes 2-3 times people just up and leave in a huff, even if the content is perfectly doable. People just expect you to already know the tactics before you set foot in the content, which is beyond unrealistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Considering how easy it is to get banned or warnings in FFXIV, I really doubt that this is a thing.
    Don't let the scare stories fool you, its harder than you think to get a warning in FF14. I've been abducted and spent more time in GM Jail than most and I've always gotten off with little more than a slap on the wrist.

    Sure, I'm not actively hostile towards other players, but I will gladly call out and kick people who are leeching, not contributing to the group, or are actively holding us back. That doesn't always make me popular as I'm sure you can imagine. As of my last stay in GM Jail I've been reported almost 4 times as much as the average player without any penalties or negative consequences beyond a quick chat with a GM.

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