[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Katchii]

No disrespect, but I think people (namely the FFXIV fandom on the forums and on reddit) are putting her on a pedestal, as if she was the sole reason for why Shadowbringers was great. A great script means jack all without a good everything else. It seems like people are eager to ignore the quest planners, the people who paced the quests and story flow and zone progression, the cutscene directors and animators, the voice director, and so on. That said, it is nice to get confirmation.

While true, I think your underestimating just how crucial a well written story is to create everything else you touched on. The other folks should be getting recognition too, but there's a reason she's getting so much attention. Without her, the rest of it wouldn't have happened the way it did.

[Tome]

No disrespect, but I think people (namely the FFXIV fandom on the forums and on reddit) are putting her on a pedestal, as if she was the sole reason for why Shadowbringers was great. A great script means jack all without a good everything else. It seems like people are eager to ignore the quest planners, the people who paced the quests and story flow and zone progression, the cutscene directors and animators, the voice director, and so on. That said, it is nice to get confirmation.

This tend to happen when only a small amount of people are willing/fine to be known to the public.

People put Yoshi-P on a pedestal too, but forget about the great developers around him. Because, well, we don't really know of the other developers.

[Merie]

No disrespect, but I think people (namely the FFXIV fandom on the forums and on reddit) are putting her on a pedestal, as if she was the sole reason for why Shadowbringers was great. A great script means jack all without a good everything else. It seems like people are eager to ignore the quest planners, the people who paced the quests and story flow and zone progression, the cutscene directors and animators, the voice director, and so on. That said, it is nice to get confirmation.

She's not the sole reason for ShB being good. She's the reason for the story in ShB not being the dumpster fire that passes for a story in WoW.

[Xilurm]

She's not the sole reason for ShB being good. She's the reason for the story in ShB not being the dumpster fire that passes for a story in WoW.

That would be Banri Oda. He's been the main scenario writer and the head writer in the FFXIV team since ARR. They have a team of writers though. He was working with Ishikawa this time around, but for other expansions he was working with someone else on the MSQ. Basically he's like what Metzen used to be and what Steve Danuser is now.

But SHB was different than the previous expansions in that sense because of Ishikawa, that's true. She's good at writing tragic characters and that's one of the things that made SHB so good.

I was so surprised to learn a couple of months ago that the writing department for WoW also has a big team apparently. Because how the hell do multiple people manage to make every single patch inconsistant with what happened previously?

Well, I'm pretty sure that will never happen to FFXIV anyway.

[Haidaes]

I was so surprised to learn a couple of months ago that the writing department for WoW also has a big team apparently. Because how the hell do multiple people manage to make every single patch inconsistant with what happened previously?

Well, I'm pretty sure that will never happen to FFXIV anyway.

While they have alot of writers, they come with alot of baggage. I would be very surprised if their team actually had a diverse mindset, since that is pretty much not the case for their location. Even more importantly though, WoW has always placed story second (or lower). They tailor the story to fit the random nonsense the big wigs want to see happen next, to the gameplay that they feel needs to happen next. You simply can't expect much from a story that way. Also Danuser is a muppet. Metzen wasn't god's gift to writing either (cata *cough*), but he was the closest thing to an original vision we had. The current team is another vision, and everytime people in the team changes the vision will change as well.

Lastly, it can always happen. Especially FF had it's fair share of grief, let me just remind you of the Lightning saga which they religiously stuck to despite barely anyone liking it. (well I guess the japanese might have liked to doll up lightning..)Decent writers leave to other projects, they are tasked with scenarios they aren't comfortable with, they run out of ideas, etc. Creative processes are always prone to ups and downs. I mean stormblood was quite a bit down fom heaven's ward and we can only hope that the next one will remain on the same level as Shadowbringers.

PS: Squenix really doesn't want my money it seems.. sigh. Edit: Your online presence has some serious flaws when it's easier to set up a SEPA mandate than swiping your credit card..

[Wrecktangle]

While they have alot of writers, they come with alot of baggage. I would be very surprised if their team actually had a diverse mindset, since that is pretty much not the case for their location. Even more importantly though, WoW has always placed story second (or lower). They tailor the story to fit the random nonsense the big wigs want to see happen next, to the gameplay that they feel needs to happen next. You simply can't expect much from a story that way. Also Danuser is a muppet. Metzen wasn't god's gift to writing either (cata *cough*), but he was the closest thing to an original vision we had. The current team is another vision, and everytime people in the team changes the vision will change as well.

I find it odd we suggest that a JP dev team (especially with their culture) are being praised for having a diverse mindset. They definitely put out a solid story, no doubt about that, but I'd be hard pressed to think its quality is a result of any type of diverse thinking.

While WoW's story sometimes sucks, hell even most of the time, they've gotten consistently better about it. Is it as refined as FF14's MSQ? Absolutely not, but they're taking notes slowly and over the last 2 expansions I've seen scenarios where they're CLEARLY looking at FF14 for storytelling inspiration. Just having our MC be the main focus in cutscenes and storytelling for one. They just need to fix the whole NPC models being 3x our size thing. That shit drives me crazy and kills a lot of immersion.

[Haidaes]

I find it odd we suggest that a JP dev team (especially with their culture) are being praised for having a diverse mindset. They definitely put out a solid story, no doubt about that, but I'd be hard pressed to think its quality is a result of any type of diverse thinking.

While WoW's story sometimes sucks, hell even most of the time, they've gotten consistently better about it. Is it as refined as FF14's MSQ? Absolutely not, but they're taking notes slowly and over the last 2 expansions I've seen scenarios where they're CLEARLY looking at FF14 for storytelling inspiration. Just having our MC be the main focus in cutscenes and storytelling for one. They just need to fix the whole NPC models being 3x our size thing. That shit drives me crazy and kills a lot of immersion.

Oh I'm not saying they are diverse compared to Blizz (though the whole gaming/nerd culture there is choke full of what would be considered deviants, so it's the closest thing in an asian country you might find), I'm saying that Blizzard's writers may be many, but it doesn't really help if they all come with the same mindset of a californian hipster nerd.

Also you are right they try to improve the presentation and personally I would argue that they actually have the better means to convey story than FFXIV. FFXIV is incredibly limited as far as conveying dialogue is concerned. The "engine" in general is the textbook definition of limited. So I personally find it actually sad that FFXIV manages to convey simple emotions with the very limited animations better than what Blizzard does with their attempts that make all the character look like their jaws constant unhinge while talking and gesticulating like they have a stroke right now. The size thing is an issue as well, especially now that they have the option to phase out other players that get too close to the NPC. That should be adapted as the standard means to keep NPC interactions immersive. As for the writing though, while they may have finally started to acknowledge the player character ingame, the way they tell the story and what kind of stories they tell still leaves alot to be desired. They also lack alot when it comes to underline scenes with the right music. FFXIV is downright manipulative in that regard, but it works better than always playing EpIc wArDrUmS #213412.

Then again, the audience that plays WoW doesn't give a toss about the story even for the rare occasions when it's good. So it's pearls before the swine anyway.

Edit: Btw whenever I see your name I have to think about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppjK4VIORdc&t :P

[KrayZ33]

I find it odd we suggest that a JP dev team (especially with their culture) are being praised for having a diverse mindset. They definitely put out a solid story, no doubt about that, but I'd be hard pressed to think its quality is a result of any type of diverse thinking.

While WoW's story sometimes sucks, hell even most of the time, they've gotten consistently better about it. Is it as refined as FF14's MSQ? Absolutely not, but they're taking notes slowly and over the last 2 expansions I've seen scenarios where they're CLEARLY looking at FF14 for storytelling inspiration. Just having our MC be the main focus in cutscenes and storytelling for one. They just need to fix the whole NPC models being 3x our size thing. That shit drives me crazy and kills a lot of immersion.

How or where do you see that? Because I really can't. What are you looking at in specific?
I really can't say anything good about how WoW is being handled when it comes to story, storytelling or presentation. I'm not blaming only the writers for that, but also the game.
But even if I try to focus on the writing I can't really find a lot of "good" things that would make me say "they improved in the last 2 years".

In fact I actually think it got worse, especially in SL.
The Kyrian stuff must be one of, if not *the* worst parts people had to suffer through in terms of storytelling/presentation and even the covenant story itself is extremely one dimensional from what I could tell before I just couldn't take it anymore and switched.
The whole covenant is a big fat joke. The new patch trailer basically confirms it.
Thankfully, the others aren't that bad.

I don't know about the books and I like the cinematic trailers prior to each expansion and stuff.
But ingame? It's always pretty much a big mess. They haven't managed to tell a story ingame properly since forever. Everything is always extremely anticlimatic. Again, this is probably the games fault too but that just goes hand in hand.
For example, I can't say the whole maw thing was even remotely interesting and the presentation was an utter failure in my opinion.
Absolutely nothing during the whole prologue was even remotely "epic" or even interesting to me when I first played through it.

I think one of the biggest differences in WoW compared to FFXIV is how every single allied NPC is extremely passive and never really does anything. In FFXIV, your companions run dungeons with you, they actually do some work outside of it too, they aren't damsels in distress all the freaking time, the characters feel alive and they actually feel like characters that have a story. No such thing in WoW, even though it's *them* that are being featured all the time in trailers, stories and quests.

The biggest insult for example is the current SL raid.
You have these extremely powerful NPCs and they are basically always staying there saying: "is the room clear yet? Can I come out? Hello~~?"
I can't express how much that kills the mood. The very least they could do is something like they do when you do the last 2 bosses, instead, they basically taunt you for the first 8. Is there a reason? If so, I missed it.
It's the same with the Kyrian Archon. Goooooosh. I could keep going and going

Kadgar was probably the only (major) NPC in WoW where I actually felt like someone is doing something aside from me.

[Poppincaps]

A big problem with the above is also that all these other characters are supposedly way stronger than you and take credit for everything you do basically. In FFXIV you do most of the heavy lifting, less so in Shadowbringers, but it makes sense because you're the warrior of light and people revere you for that.

[Wrecktangle]

Also you are right they try to improve the presentation and personally I would argue that they actually have the better means to convey story than FFXIV. FFXIV is incredibly limited as far as conveying dialogue is concerned. The "engine" in general is the textbook definition of limited. So I personally find it actually sad that FFXIV manages to convey simple emotions with the very limited animations better than what Blizzard does with their attempts that make all the character look like their jaws constant unhinge while talking and gesticulating like they have a stroke right now. The size thing is an issue as well, especially now that they have the option to phase out other players that get too close to the NPC. That should be adapted as the standard means to keep NPC interactions immersive. As for the writing though, while they may have finally started to acknowledge the player character ingame, the way they tell the story and what kind of stories they tell still leaves alot to be desired. They also lack alot when it comes to underline scenes with the right music. FFXIV is downright manipulative in that regard, but it works better than always playing EpIc wArDrUmS #213412.

Agreed on all counts. Music is one area that FF14 absolutely crushes any and all competition.

How or where do you see that? Because I really can't. What are you looking at in specific?
I really can't say anything good about how WoW is being handled when it comes to story, storytelling or presentation. I'm not blaming only the writers for that, but also the game.
But even if I try to focus on the writing I can't really find a lot of "good" things that would make me say "they improved in the last 2 years".

In fact I actually think it got worse, especially in SL.
The Kyrian stuff must be one of, if not *the* worst parts people had to suffer through in terms of storytelling/presentation and even the covenant story itself is extremely one dimensional from what I could tell before I just couldn't take it anymore and switched.
The whole covenant is a big fat joke. The new patch trailer basically confirms it.
Thankfully, the others aren't that bad.

I don't know about the books and I like the cinematic trailers prior to each expansion and stuff.
But ingame? It's always pretty much a big mess. They haven't managed to tell a story ingame properly since forever. Everything is always extremely anticlimatic. Again, this is probably the games fault too but that just goes hand in hand.
For example, I can't say the whole maw thing was even remotely interesting and the presentation was an utter failure in my opinion.
Absolutely nothing during the whole prologue was even remotely "epic" or even interesting to me when I first played through it.

I think one of the biggest differences in WoW compared to FFXIV is how every single allied NPC is extremely passive and never really does anything. In FFXIV, your companions run dungeons with you, they actually do some work outside of it too, they aren't damsels in distress all the freaking time, the characters feel alive and they actually feel like characters that have a story. No such thing in WoW, even though it's *them* that are being featured all the time in trailers, stories and quests.

The biggest insult for example is the current SL raid.
You have these extremely powerful NPCs and they are basically always staying there saying: "is the room clear yet? Can I come out? Hello~~?"
I can't express how much that kills the mood. The very least they could do is something like they do when you do the last 2 bosses, instead, they basically taunt you for the first 8. Is there a reason? If so, I missed it.
It's the same with the Kyrian Archon. Goooooosh. I could keep going and going

Kadgar was probably the only (major) NPC in WoW where I actually felt like someone is doing something aside from me.

I actually find the overarching story generally decent in modern expansions (modern defined as Legion and onward for this discussion). There are many aspects where it's weak, in fact more than less, but I also believe that despite these shortcomings they're also leaps and bounds where we came from which was my point. The entire Suramar campaign was great and the few order halls I'm more knowledgeable on were also well received. While the BfA story was certainly weaker as a whole IMO, there were parts of it that were notable specifically surrounding Azshara and the shift of storytelling to focus more on PC alongside these NPCs. I think Legion really helped set up the idea that we aren't just nameless goons anymore and we're equivalent if not stronger than some of these NPCs. It's not like in FF14 where it's explicitly shown and said, but a little bit more subtle. I do agree that allied NPCs in WoW have been incredibly hit or miss, with your Khadgar example being a great one.

The NPCs in question the General and Prince are not stronger than us. We bested one of the other Generals in combat in a dungeon forcing them to flee. I'd be more curious if it's ever been called out as to whether we "raid" alone or if we're expected much like the WoL to amass allies out of thin air.

[Haidaes]

The NPCs in question the General and Prince are not stronger than us. We bested one of the other Generals in combat in a dungeon forcing them to flee. I'd be more curious if it's ever been called out as to whether we "raid" alone or if we're expected much like the WoL to amass allies out of thin air.

The dialogues certainly mention us gathering our allies and the raids are framed in a way that NPC adress us all together. Even the covenants, after us single handedly conquering all 4 zones, mention that other mortals are the ones that should help the covenants we didn't pick (though that was extremely contrived in many ways).

At first I was going to make an argument in regards to the NPCs that the FFXIV ones are also closer to us because they are more personal, less different in rank, but then I remembered that the WoL is also very close to the faction leaders and while they may serve as slightly lesser supporting characters than the scions, I think at the end of the day they are still way better written and handled than any Thrall or Jaina will ever be. I just remembered how I cared about Rauhban or his adoptive son way more than any of the faction leaders in WoW. I think the last time I cared about one of them was during Suramar when they properly built up Thalysra and her crew. I'm not even sure why I can't care about the characters in WoW at all, I mean I have read books about them so by the sheer amount of exposition I've had to them I should be more immersed in their fate, but then again maybe I still just feel like that all they do is steal my kills; lol.

[KrayZ33]

The NPCs in question the General and Prince are not stronger than us. We bested one of the other Generals in combat in a dungeon forcing them to flee. I'd be more curious if it's ever been called out as to whether we "raid" alone or if we're expected much like the WoL to amass allies out of thin air.

Well, actually she defeated us - you know, the usual "ENOUGH!" nonsense. Thankfully, this was one of the few times when a NPCs actually did something (the Naaru helped us - and the General came and freed us), although the scene itself was done very poorly.

The Acuser etc. is super powerful too.


Even if they are "only" as strong as us. That's plenty. They could do a lot of things - instead they wait, they always wait. They don't even do things on their own in the meantime most of the time.
In FFXIV, not one of our companions is as strong as us, yet they deal with important stuff all the time and even fight alongside us, even outside of dungeons.
And they are capable of fighting alone, without us, too.
Just take the Hades cutscene for example, etc. etc.

More often than not, the player is the support character. That's something that is missing completely in WoW and that leads to very shallow NPCs... NPCs we don't really care about. It's good that we sometimes see these NPCs in Raids and dungeons, but considering that 95% of the storytelling is done outside of those, we see them not nearly often enough. And they are doing far to little to be as important as they are portrayed.

The Hyal raid was pretty cool, fighting together with NPCs and named characters. Defeating bosses alongside them.
They felt alive in that moment. They muster soldiers to fight alongside us. We were part of a faction and supporting them. We held the line together and all that kind of stuff.
I'm not saying that WoW never does it. But sure as hell not often enough for *me* to actually care about any NPC in their story.
And obviously, it's not just fighting alongside them that would make me care about NPCs. It's just one of many things.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

In FFXIV, not one of our companions is as strong as us

My understanding is that the WoL is not actually powerful. They aren't like a higher powerlevel than anyone else (Estinien is said to be - and shown to be - about as powerful as the WoL, and there are several others who are close). The WoL is just talented at learning new skills, and are in the right place at the right time.

Spoiler: long explanation

Spoiler: 

Notably, the WoL never defeats any MSQ villain in a straight 1v1. Nidhogg, Zenos, and Emet-Selch could have crushed the WoL like a bug if they really wanted to, but they were written in such a way where they were holding back. Nidhogg didn't go all out at first because he wanted to drag out Ishgard's suffering. Zenos wants to cultivate people to become strong enough (and motivated) to fight him. Emet-Selch committed suicide by WoL.

Furthermore, the WoL had to become temporalily empowered to defeat these villains. The WoL needs Hraesvelgr's eye (and Estinien holding Nidhogg back from within) to defeat Nidhogg. The WoL had to become stronger just to not immediately die to Zenos (notably the WoL never beat Zenos in a 1v1; he lost 2 1v1s, and then jumped on Zenos in Ala Mhigo with 3 others). The WoL needed to be infused with a sheer amount of light energy AND be rejoined in order to kill Emet.

The WoL is also quite often outwitted and nearly killed for real by regular people. The WoL would have been killed by the Ultima Weapon if not for Hydaelyn stripping it of the primal essences, and shielding the WoL from Ultima. The WoL was arrested by the Brass Blades and could have been killed if not for Raubahn's intervention. The WoL didn't notice that his beer was spiked until it was too late; had it been poisoned he would have been dead. The WoL is nearly killed by Zenos several times. The WoL is trapped and nearly killed by the villain of the Gunbreaker questline. The WoL straight up dies to simple gas in the original timeline. And so on.

(Also, remember that the WoL didn't even try fighting Koryu, even with the Auspices at his side. They would rather seal Koryu away rather than risk dying to him in a fight).

As for "well the WoL is 9 times Rejoined. They must be 9 times more powerful than people from other shards!" well no, that's not what we see in game. In 3.4, the WoL and the Scions face off against the Warriors of Darkness from the First. The WoL and Scions only just barely defeat the WoDs. Obviously the WoL being Azem and the Ascian backstory had not been thought up back then, so this could have been retconned... but in Shadowbringers the WoL (9 times rejoined after Ardbert) and the Scions (8 times rejoined) don't appear to be any more powerful than the people of the First (who are 1/14th fragments), so even with the new lore it doesn't appear that rejoining actually makes you more powerful.

So it seems that the WoL regularly requires aid (be it in power ups and/or friends and/or divine intervention) AND requires his enemies to be gimped/holding back in order to defeat them. The WoL seems to be just a really lucky normal person. The only real advantage the WoL has is their Echo for better understanding the motives of people, and his protection against tempering. Everything the WoL did, theoretically Minfillia, Arenvald, Yslaye, and Krile could have done too.

[Poppincaps]

My understanding is that the WoL is not actually powerful. They aren't like a higher powerlevel than anyone else (Estinien is said to be - and shown to be - about as powerful as the WoL, and there are several others who are close). The WoL is just talented at learning new skills, and are in the right place at the right time.

Spoiler: long explanation

Spoiler: 

Notably, the WoL never defeats any MSQ villain in a straight 1v1. Nidhogg, Zenos, and Emet-Selch could have crushed the WoL like a bug if they really wanted to, but they were written in such a way where they were holding back. Nidhogg didn't go all out at first because he wanted to drag out Ishgard's suffering. Zenos wants to cultivate people to become strong enough (and motivated) to fight him. Emet-Selch committed suicide by WoL.

Furthermore, the WoL had to become temporalily empowered to defeat these villains. The WoL needs Hraesvelgr's eye (and Estinien holding Nidhogg back from within) to defeat Nidhogg. The WoL had to become stronger just to not immediately die to Zenos (notably the WoL never beat Zenos in a 1v1; he lost 2 1v1s, and then jumped on Zenos in Ala Mhigo with 3 others). The WoL needed to be infused with a sheer amount of light energy AND be rejoined in order to kill Emet.

The WoL is also quite often outwitted and nearly killed for real by regular people. The WoL would have been killed by the Ultima Weapon if not for Hydaelyn stripping it of the primal essences, and shielding the WoL from Ultima. The WoL was arrested by the Brass Blades and could have been killed if not for Raubahn's intervention. The WoL didn't notice that his beer was spiked until it was too late; had it been poisoned he would have been dead. The WoL is nearly killed by Zenos several times. The WoL is trapped and nearly killed by the villain of the Gunbreaker questline. The WoL straight up dies to simple gas in the original timeline. And so on.

(Also, remember that the WoL didn't even try fighting Koryu, even with the Auspices at his side. They would rather seal Koryu away rather than risk dying to him in a fight).

As for "well the WoL is 9 times Rejoined. They must be 9 times more powerful than people from other shards!" well no, that's not what we see in game. In 3.4, the WoL and the Scions face off against the Warriors of Darkness from the First. The WoL and Scions only just barely defeat the WoDs. Obviously the WoL being Azem and the Ascian backstory had not been thought up back then, so this could have been retconned... but in Shadowbringers the WoL (9 times rejoined after Ardbert) and the Scions (8 times rejoined) don't appear to be any more powerful than the people of the First (who are 1/14th fragments), so even with the new lore it doesn't appear that rejoining actually makes you more powerful.

So it seems that the WoL regularly requires aid (be it in power ups and/or friends and/or divine intervention) AND requires his enemies to be gimped/holding back in order to defeat them. The WoL seems to be just a really lucky normal person. The only real advantage the WoL has is their Echo for better understanding the motives of people, and his protection against tempering. Everything the WoL did, theoretically Minfillia, Arenvald, Yslaye, and Krile could have done too.

Your post just explains that the enemies we fight could be stronger than us, you didn't make any real points about our allies being stronger than us. Estinien is probably the strongest ally we have, but in many of the cases you listed he would've died like against Ultima. Sure others with the Echo *could* do what we do, but they don't because our combat skill and our echo makes us so powerful.

Hell we fight Estinien in the level 50 Dragoon job quest and push him to his limits and in that time I'd say we've significantly outscaled him.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Your post just explains that the enemies we fight could be stronger than us, you didn't make any real points about our allies being stronger than us. Estinien is probably the strongest ally we have, but in many of the cases you listed he would've died like against Ultima. Sure others with the Echo *could* do what we do, but they don't because our combat skill and our echo makes us so powerful.

Hell we fight Estinien in the level 50 Dragoon job quest and push him to his limits and in that time I'd say we've significantly outscaled him.

Well, if I were to make a FFXIV powerlevel tier list:

Spoiler: 

Unkillable by mortals tier (without magical/divine aid or the boss being nerfed)

Midgardsomr = Bahamut = Omega = Koryu => Hades => Ultima Weapon

• We have two contradicting stories about the Midgardsomr vs Omega fight. Middie says he thought Omega was too strong, and fled. Omega says he doesn't know why Middie fled, implying that Middie may have misjudged Omega's powerlevel.

• Omega sealed Bahamut. In FFXIV, it seems that "sealing" a powerful being is easier than straight up killing them (which was why Koryu was sealed, because he was so high powerlevel it was doubtful it was possible).

• Hades was capable of conjuring an entire city and its inhabitants. He was said to be one of the most powerful Amaurotines ever, so the other Ascians/Amaurotines would be less powerful than him.

Mortals

Zenos (best warrior alive) >> WoL = Estinien = Raubahn = Ran'jit (among the best warriors alive) => Thancred = Hien = Gosetsu (very good) > everyone else/normal people.

• Estinien soloed Arch Ultima, a magitek Weapon based on the Ultima Weapon. The VIIth Legion magitek weapons (Ruby and Emerald Weapon) are probably the most powerful things that the WoL has killed without magical or divine aid. The one caveat is that Estinien's lance may or may not possess/be haunted by Nidhogg's soul (or essence?), which may or may not make Estinien more powerful (it's really ambiguous).

• The WoL barely beat Raubahn in a duel, and he was handicapped. If he had both arms...

• Thancred fought Ran'jit to a standstill, forcing Ran'jit to go super sayian. He wasn't going to win, but still.

• Hien held his ground against Elidibus-Zenos. He wasn't going to win, but still.

• Gosetsu in the Yotsuyuu vision managed to push back, and hold his own, against Zenos for a short while. This could be just Yotsuyu imagining Gosetsu as being stronger than he really is, but he was a renowned swordsman and Hien's instructor, and had managed to live to be an old man.

[Graeham]

Well, the latest solo battle for BLU mages was a pleasant surprise. Quite the impressive throwback to FF6!

[Wrecktangle]

The dialogues certainly mention us gathering our allies and the raids are framed in a way that NPC adress us all together. Even the covenants, after us single handedly conquering all 4 zones, mention that other mortals are the ones that should help the covenants we didn't pick (though that was extremely contrived in many ways).

At first I was going to make an argument in regards to the NPCs that the FFXIV ones are also closer to us because they are more personal, less different in rank, but then I remembered that the WoL is also very close to the faction leaders and while they may serve as slightly lesser supporting characters than the scions, I think at the end of the day they are still way better written and handled than any Thrall or Jaina will ever be. I just remembered how I cared about Rauhban or his adoptive son way more than any of the faction leaders in WoW. I think the last time I cared about one of them was during Suramar when they properly built up Thalysra and her crew. I'm not even sure why I can't care about the characters in WoW at all, I mean I have read books about them so by the sheer amount of exposition I've had to them I should be more immersed in their fate, but then again maybe I still just feel like that all they do is steal my kills; lol.

For sure. You'll find very little argument from me there. My argument wasn't that WoW was good, merely that it's getting better. Which I think the discussion has certainly proved. Though I'm much less attached to ff14 NPCs as some of you here (this holds very true for WoW too FYI). There's a few I really like notably Y'shtola and most of the villains.

Well, actually she defeated us - you know, the usual "ENOUGH!" nonsense. Thankfully, this was one of the few times when a NPCs actually did something (the Naaru helped us - and the General came and freed us), although the scene itself was done very poorly.

The Acuser etc. is super powerful too.


Even if they are "only" as strong as us. That's plenty. They could do a lot of things - instead they wait, they always wait. They don't even do things on their own in the meantime most of the time.
In FFXIV, not one of our companions is as strong as us, yet they deal with important stuff all the time and even fight alongside us, even outside of dungeons.
And they are capable of fighting alone, without us, too.
Just take the Hades cutscene for example, etc. etc.

More often than not, the player is the support character. That's something that is missing completely in WoW and that leads to very shallow NPCs... NPCs we don't really care about. It's good that we sometimes see these NPCs in Raids and dungeons, but considering that 95% of the storytelling is done outside of those, we see them not nearly often enough. And they are doing far to little to be as important as they are portrayed.

The Hyal raid was pretty cool, fighting together with NPCs and named characters. Defeating bosses alongside them.
They felt alive in that moment. They muster soldiers to fight alongside us. We were part of a faction and supporting them. We held the line together and all that kind of stuff.
I'm not saying that WoW never does it. But sure as hell not often enough for *me* to actually care about any NPC in their story.
And obviously, it's not just fighting alongside them that would make me care about NPCs. It's just one of many things.

All relatively valid points, but my original point was that I see a trend of WoW getting better with respect to storytelling. Is it good? Nah not really. Is it better than FF14? Absolutely not. Is FF14's storytelling perfect? Also absolutely not.

My understanding is that the WoL is not actually powerful. They aren't like a higher powerlevel than anyone else (Estinien is said to be - and shown to be - about as powerful as the WoL, and there are several others who are close). The WoL is just talented at learning new skills, and are in the right place at the right time.

Interesting points.

[Bovinity Divinity]

In WoW at least, people whined SO hard after Cata that the NPC's stole our spotlight or some crap, so it doesn't surprise me that Blizzard now shoves NPCs into a broom closet until after the players are done doing their thing.

Can't win when you're creating for a big audience.

[Thestrawman]

No disrespect, but I think people (namely the FFXIV fandom on the forums and on reddit) are putting her on a pedestal, as if she was the sole reason for why Shadowbringers was great. A great script means jack all without a good everything else. It seems like people are eager to ignore the quest planners, the people who paced the quests and story flow and zone progression, the cutscene directors and animators, the voice director, and so on. That said, it is nice to get confirmation.

While you do have a good point I think you're selling her short. She was put in the spotlight by ShB but she had done great work even before that with the Dark Knight quests and the Far East portion of Stormblood's MSQ.

[Katchii]

My understanding is that the WoL is not actually powerful. They aren't like a higher powerlevel than anyone else (Estinien is said to be - and shown to be - about as powerful as the WoL, and there are several others who are close). The WoL is just talented at learning new skills, and are in the right place at the right time.

Spoiler: long explanation

Spoiler: 

Notably, the WoL never defeats any MSQ villain in a straight 1v1. Nidhogg, Zenos, and Emet-Selch could have crushed the WoL like a bug if they really wanted to, but they were written in such a way where they were holding back. Nidhogg didn't go all out at first because he wanted to drag out Ishgard's suffering. Zenos wants to cultivate people to become strong enough (and motivated) to fight him. Emet-Selch committed suicide by WoL.

Furthermore, the WoL had to become temporalily empowered to defeat these villains. The WoL needs Hraesvelgr's eye (and Estinien holding Nidhogg back from within) to defeat Nidhogg. The WoL had to become stronger just to not immediately die to Zenos (notably the WoL never beat Zenos in a 1v1; he lost 2 1v1s, and then jumped on Zenos in Ala Mhigo with 3 others). The WoL needed to be infused with a sheer amount of light energy AND be rejoined in order to kill Emet.

The WoL is also quite often outwitted and nearly killed for real by regular people. The WoL would have been killed by the Ultima Weapon if not for Hydaelyn stripping it of the primal essences, and shielding the WoL from Ultima. The WoL was arrested by the Brass Blades and could have been killed if not for Raubahn's intervention. The WoL didn't notice that his beer was spiked until it was too late; had it been poisoned he would have been dead. The WoL is nearly killed by Zenos several times. The WoL is trapped and nearly killed by the villain of the Gunbreaker questline. The WoL straight up dies to simple gas in the original timeline. And so on.

(Also, remember that the WoL didn't even try fighting Koryu, even with the Auspices at his side. They would rather seal Koryu away rather than risk dying to him in a fight).

As for "well the WoL is 9 times Rejoined. They must be 9 times more powerful than people from other shards!" well no, that's not what we see in game. In 3.4, the WoL and the Scions face off against the Warriors of Darkness from the First. The WoL and Scions only just barely defeat the WoDs. Obviously the WoL being Azem and the Ascian backstory had not been thought up back then, so this could have been retconned... but in Shadowbringers the WoL (9 times rejoined after Ardbert) and the Scions (8 times rejoined) don't appear to be any more powerful than the people of the First (who are 1/14th fragments), so even with the new lore it doesn't appear that rejoining actually makes you more powerful.

So it seems that the WoL regularly requires aid (be it in power ups and/or friends and/or divine intervention) AND requires his enemies to be gimped/holding back in order to defeat them. The WoL seems to be just a really lucky normal person. The only real advantage the WoL has is their Echo for better understanding the motives of people, and his protection against tempering. Everything the WoL did, theoretically Minfillia, Arenvald, Yslaye, and Krile could have done too.

The storyline of Shadowbringers basically shows AND tells that the WoL is objectively more powerful than pretty much everyone else due to our aetheric density. The story explores what causes that.

The Echo gives us a huge tactical advantage in battle that was explored in Stormblood and our martial prowess in general has been showcased several times over.

All of these things combined means that we're objectively one of the most powerful and formidable people in all the realms.

Just because we always have a cadre of people willing to support us doesn't mean we're weak, it means we're smart, and also highlights just how important we are because they don't want to lose us to something stupid or unforeseen. As powerful as we are, that doesn't make us invincible.