1. #50641
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Depends on the gear level of the group. I have seen quite a bit of carrying in savage. *shrug*

    I honestly do not believe that savage is in any way harder than mythic, they are pretty on par in terms of difficulty, only that I feel that Blizzard is more creative in terms of visuals while mechanics in XIV mostly always look the same (towers for instance). I cannot comment on ultimate, as I never played it.
    While comparing raids on their own is difficult, you can just look at the objective data.

    New savage wings tend to be cleared immediately. Like, the same or next calendar day. And with a significantly less competitive playerbase. Ultimates took a little longer historically, but there's...3?...of those in the entire game?

  2. #50642
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    19,873
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    And with a significantly less competitive playerbase.
    Wouldn't be too sure about that one. At least not from the behavior I've seen ingame.
    maybe on the front of world firsts, no clue. Don't follow such things.

  3. #50643
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    He probably won't stick with FF14; eventually his horde of rabid fans will get bored and he'll come back to streaming WoW. Probably tomorrow when the new raid launches. Every time he was supposed to quit streaming WoW for good, he came back eventually.



    I didn't see any big WoW streamer trying out FF14 other than Asmongold and AnnieFuchsia lately. The end game streamers have been streaming TBC for the last month, not FF. You gotta wonder whether people have been watching because it was FF14, or because it was Asmongold streaming FF14. He could watch paint dry on stream and still get an immense viewership count.

    And the latest WoW raid hasn't been released yet, this week was more the prepatch of the 9.1 patch (no raid, no megadungeon, no new M+ season this week). Just wait for the world first race in one week and you'll see.
    Bellular and Preach on youtube have also been trying out FF14. Bellular used to be pretty big WoW content creator before he became clickbait garbage and decided that low effort videos of him just talking to his friend ranting while he checks his email on his phone is good enough. Like.. at least make eye contact with the camera sometimes..

  4. #50644
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordin Solus View Post
    Granyala dont forget M+ is not just 8 people, there is a better chance to get carried there than in 8 mans where you are so much more accountable for your actions specialy in end turn savages and ultimates.
    I'd argue that the opposite is true - Higher level M+ keys have a slim margin for error and one bad player can drag down the rest of the group much easier than in a Savage raid. While you can carry people, the higher you push the harder it becomes if you're aiming to beat the timer. If you're not concerned about the timer then you can brute force your way through almost any M+ eventually, carries in the group or not.

    M+ tends to need a lot more coordination for interrupts and some of the affixes than anything I've seen in FF14.

    FF14 is a lot more forgiving in terms of it punishments for failure. You can be ressed and carry on with a damage penalty and still contribute something to a group. In WoW you're either taking up a combat res (which can be a valuable resource) or are sitting the fight out. You take an additional 5 second timer penalty in either case.

  5. #50645
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Preach on youtube have also been trying out FF14.
    As far as I know, Preach didn't even touch the game, he only tried to guess Ultimate mechanics from kill videos.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  6. #50646
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I'd argue that the opposite is true - Higher level M+ keys have a slim margin for error and one bad player can drag down the rest of the group much easier than in a Savage raid. While you can carry people, the higher you push the harder it becomes if you're aiming to beat the timer. If you're not concerned about the timer then you can brute force your way through almost any M+ eventually, carries in the group or not.

    M+ tends to need a lot more coordination for interrupts and some of the affixes than anything I've seen in FF14.

    FF14 is a lot more forgiving in terms of it punishments for failure. You can be ressed and carry on with a damage penalty and still contribute something to a group. In WoW you're either taking up a combat res (which can be a valuable resource) or are sitting the fight out. You take an additional 5 second timer penalty in either case.
    M+ past a certain point is completely irrelevant, and the more gear you obtain the less relevant pushing a key becomes. Doing a +20 or more in a mode that scales infinitely doesn't make it infinitely more difficult. Yes, it's certainly massively punishing and key obliterating if even one person dies, or people aren't playing 100% optimally.. in content that's completely irrelevant outside of a mostly meaningless challenge. A +15 doesn't really require much from anyone, outside of the odd stun, or pretty basic affixes that equate to "Kill at the same time. Kite. Don't stand here. Don't cast. Get everything low then kill it. Burst x enemy." You bring damage, you'll probably win.

    Besides, if you're familiar with on release Savage content you would know that even with 8 people playing optimally, one death or two can still result in you not making the enrage and just dying. Just because you can res as many times as you want in a fight doesn't mean that the res sickness and downtime won't result in failure. I mean you don't get any stat deficit if you die and get res'd in WoW, either. Maybe that isn't completely true with the best of the best, but those groups that were going for "day 1" kills on the 4/4 Savage boss? One death? You wipe.

    Fights in FF14 are, however, 100% scripted with very little RNG. It makes for very easy fights because the more you wipe, the more you perfect your CDs, the more you perfect maximum damage and uptime as a healer, and it gets easier with gear. Again, not all so different than WoW, I suppose.
    Last edited by La; 2021-07-05 at 04:38 PM.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  7. #50647
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    As far as I know, Preach didn't even touch the game, he only tried to guess Ultimate mechanics from kill videos.
    Oh yeh. That's what I saw. But still, giving it exposure.

  8. #50648
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    FF14 is a lot more forgiving in terms of it punishments for failure. You can be ressed and carry on with a damage penalty and still contribute something to a group. In WoW you're either taking up a combat res (which can be a valuable resource) or are sitting the fight out. You take an additional 5 second timer penalty in either case.
    It greatly depends on the content. During Savage (Mythic) Raid prog, a few deaths and you're very likely not killing the boss in your gear. You also don't double your damage with BiS from the start of the tier, like taking 10m fights down to 5m. General mechanics are also a lot tougher in FFXIV, though they have to be because the game is a lot slower at a base 2.5s GCD as opposed to WoW's 1.5/1.0 (for AGI). On top of that, 24% of a healer's MP bar (unless they're WHM and use Thin Air on it) per rez is nothing to just ignore, especially if they give a crap about their stats and don't go nuts on Piety, even moreso if you have multiple deaths.

    Also while I haven't played Shadowlands, in BfA you could definitely carry a player at +15 (the highest level that mattered) and still make the timer. I'm a pretty meh player and my group did that aplenty. In FFXIV, if one player dies in Savage or even Extreme Trials, you're very likely losing at least 1-2 more people to a mechanic that is intended to hit 8 players (which is now hitting 7 so someone's gonna be hit twice). There is no zero-penalty BRezzing (which is also 2-5x faster to do in WoW than it is in FFXIV) unless you want to waste LB3 on that.

    But yeah, definitely depends on the content you're talking about. I wish we had some form of M+ in FFXIV because it would make the dungeons less boring and more than just Tomestone (Justice/Valor Points) farming (a la BC/LK dungeons which also got very repetitive). I just wanted to point out that having "unlimited battle rezzes", while it sounds great on paper, runs into many downsides. We don't have an M+ system so it's hard to fairly compare.


    That said, I will say that WoW definitely demands more CC from you. You never use Sleep outside of Baldesion Arsenal, and Interrupts are extremely uncommon (also only available to Tanks and Physical Ranged players) while it feels like a quarter of every WoW tier has something that demands interrupts, potentially another few of them that need some other form of CC. Where FFXIV makes up for that though is planning mitigation cooldowns (as virtually every class has at least 1 "raid-benefitting mitigation tool) and DPS-increasing cooldowns that you want to line up and stack as many as you can (vast majority of which are on a 2m cooldown).
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2021-07-05 at 04:53 PM.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  9. #50649
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    How do you know some of his fans don't play FF?
    I know for a fact that some do, but his that doesn't make my statement incorrect. They're still a part of the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    You think there is no overlap?

    Saying: This was the FFXIV community is just as hypocritical, my dude. Especially cause this happens every time Asmon plays any MMO from WoW, to ESO, to FFXIV. And it somehow didn't happen to Pyromancer, Jesse, Taliesin, Evitel or Bellular. Makes you think, huh?

    Personally I think the crowd was a mix of regular dumb Asmon fans, and FFXIV fans who think this is somehow making the game less toxic (jokes on them, Asmon had fun and he was less toxic than the so called defenders), with neither of these groups representing the whole. Anyone who says otherwise is just pushing an agenda.
    Your post was my entire point . That's always been my point to every single one of these discussions. This community is a hypocritical mess filled with the same people that play a bunch of other games that people regularly talk trash about. This is generally true of any gaming community IMO.

  10. #50650
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    19,873
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I'd argue that the opposite is true - Higher level M+ keys have a slim margin for error and one bad player can drag down the rest of the group much easier than in a Savage raid.
    Are there M+ keys for the big raids now? Oo
    I was only aware of the dungeon zergfest M+ mode.

  11. #50651
    Calling Savage on par with Mythic raiding feels a bit disingenuous. Maybe like the first 1-2 bosses of a mythic tier, but nowhere near the latter half of a tier. I can't speak on Ultimates as I've never participated but as someone alluded to above, there is 3 of them in a 7 year old game so it's somewhat moot.

  12. #50652
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,921
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    Calling Savage on par with Mythic raiding feels a bit disingenuous. Maybe like the first 1-2 bosses of a mythic tier, but nowhere near the latter half of a tier. I can't speak on Ultimates as I've never participated but as someone alluded to above, there is 3 of them in a 7 year old game so it's somewhat moot.
    yeah in my opinion clearing both, id say savage is like the first 75% of a raid in mythic (the last 2/3 bosses usually being much harder compared to final ffxiv bosses), ultimate being final boss difficulty. wow raids on average are much harder compared to ffxiv.
    Last edited by The Oblivion; 2021-07-05 at 06:35 PM.

  13. #50653
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Bellular and Preach on youtube have also been trying out FF14. Bellular used to be pretty big WoW content creator before he became clickbait garbage and decided that low effort videos of him just talking to his friend ranting while he checks his email on his phone is good enough. Like.. at least make eye contact with the camera sometimes..
    He still makes the videos you're talking about. You're complaining about his stream vods being less professional... no shit they're less professional. It's a stream vod.

    Bell is no more clickbaity than the rest of youtube. The algorithm is dumb, you gotta do what you gotta do. As long as the videos are still good (and they are), who cares about clickbait titles or thumbnails?

  14. #50654
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    He still makes the videos you're talking about. You're complaining about his stream vods being less professional... no shit they're less professional. It's a stream vod.

    Bell is no more clickbaity than the rest of youtube. The algorithm is dumb, you gotta do what you gotta do. As long as the videos are still good (and they are), who cares about clickbait titles or thumbnails?
    It seems asmongold only reacts to the stream vods then and most often they are completely void of any substance and are just Bellular's irish friend ranting while Bellular sits there looking at his phone.

  15. #50655
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    Bell is no more clickbaity than the rest of youtube. The algorithm is dumb, you gotta do what you gotta do. As long as the videos are still good (and they are), who cares about clickbait titles or thumbnails?
    Loving every laugh shillfriend.

    Bellular
    How To WIN! The Patch 9.1 Torghast Revamp Guide: Earn 5* Score, Rewards & MORE
    CONFUSED? Patch 9.1 Korthia & Maw Guide: Fast Rep, Gear Mounts & MORE!
    Should YOU Resub For 9.1? The Pros, Cons & Honest Opinions

    Preach
    Drama Time - Furry Daddy Milkers
    Drama Time - My Character Quit Before I Did
    Preach's Most Corrupt Guild - ConFused

    You can pretend there's no difference there but anyone with eyes can see someone's click baiting just a smidge harder (hint it's not Preach)
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  16. #50656
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Loving every laugh shillfriend.

    Bellular
    How To WIN! The Patch 9.1 Torghast Revamp Guide: Earn 5* Score, Rewards & MORE
    CONFUSED? Patch 9.1 Korthia & Maw Guide: Fast Rep, Gear Mounts & MORE!
    Should YOU Resub For 9.1? The Pros, Cons & Honest Opinions

    Preach
    Drama Time - Furry Daddy Milkers
    Drama Time - My Character Quit Before I Did
    Preach's Most Corrupt Guild - ConFused

    You can pretend there's no difference there but anyone with eyes can see someone's click baiting just a smidge harder (hint it's not Preach)
    Preach doesn't monetize his videos. You don't need clickbait if you aren't trying to run a business on YT.

    Also notice that Preach's drama time series are his least watched videos, easily. A quick glance at Preach's "Most Popular" videos... "TOP 5 (X) IN WOW!". Wow! Almost like the algorithm is in play for Preach as well. Who would have thought?

  17. #50657
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    Also notice that Preach's drama time series are his least watched videos, easily. A quick glance at Preach's "Most Popular" videos... "TOP 5 (X) IN WOW!". Wow! Almost like the algorithm is in play for Preach as well. Who would have thought?
    I just picked the three latest videos from both channels.

    It's true three of preach's top five most popular videos are listicles, but listicles aren't clickbait. Further of his top 15 videos, only 4 are listicles the other 11 are his legacy of series.
    Interestingly only two of Belluar's top 15 videos are clickbait, the rest are just reporting on new features like allied races artifact weapons and mounts. it seems like not even his audience likes the obnoxious clickbait.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  18. #50658
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    3,264
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    Calling Savage on par with Mythic raiding feels a bit disingenuous. Maybe like the first 1-2 bosses of a mythic tier, but nowhere near the latter half of a tier. I can't speak on Ultimates as I've never participated but as someone alluded to above, there is 3 of them in a 7 year old game so it's somewhat moot.
    While you are correct also please consider that like 5% attempts Ultimate and around 1% clears it. So it is a very nieche segment of the playerbase. They get their share of the content accordingly.

  19. #50659
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    While you are correct also please consider that like 5% attempts Ultimate and around 1% clears it. So it is a very nieche segment of the playerbase. They get their share of the content accordingly.
    20 percent of the people who attempt the hardest content in the game clearing it sounds pretty decent to be honest as to my understanding you can't outgrew it in time.

  20. #50660
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    3,264
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    20 percent of the people who attempt the hardest content in the game clearing it sounds pretty decent to be honest as to my understanding you can't outgrew it in time.
    That is true, but unrelated to the point I was trying to make. With time and resouces being finite, and devs play testing the content they create instead of a separate team they really need to think about what content to focus on. And content 95% of the playerbase doesn't even attempt is going to be low on the list. So there is a very logical reason why we have only 3 Ultimates so far.

    Not going to compare difficulty as both combat in general and boss encounter design in particular has a vastly different design philosophy in the two games.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •