1. #50701
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    3,138
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The most effective of which is stopping people from dying because they screwed up. Not letting them overpull and die is one of those uses, imo.
    That may be your opinion, but e.g. it is used in many E9S strategies to handle some mechanics better/easier/more efficient - without anyboy screwing up.

  2. #50702
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The most effective of which is stopping people from dying because they screwed up. Not letting them overpull and die is one of those uses, imo.
    Using words would be more effective, IMO. Since there's many other uses for Rescue, it could be misinterpreted easily, or the person literally has no idea what's going on. Actual words, if you use the right ones, would not be so easily misinterpreted.

    Healers do it to me all the time. I've done it to other tanks on occasion too, it's a reasonably common thing to see in my groups when I'm DPSing. It's always been understood as a universal "don't pull any more" in all situations.

    It could just be something that happens on my data center perhaps, but I was under the impression it was widely used and understood. Apparently I was wrong on that count.
    I've never heard it being used for this purpose, seen it used multiple times to pull people out of AoE or to pull the dumb DPS with aggro towards the tank so they could pull aggro off them.

    I'll keep an eye out to see if I'm just not paying attention, though.

  3. #50703
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    That may be your opinion, but e.g. it is used in many E9S strategies to handle some mechanics better/easier/more efficient - without anyboy screwing up.
    I won't say it's the only use, but I know from personal experience I've used it a lot more for pulling people out of one shot AoE's and more commonly still from being knocked off platforms due to mechanics. (Or backflips)

    For the average player, it'll almost exclusively be used as a reaction to people failing mechanics than as intentional part of their strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I've never heard it being used for this purpose, seen it used multiple times to pull people out of AoE or to pull the dumb DPS with aggro towards the tank so they could pull aggro off them.
    Given the reaction, nor have others. Thats why I'm inclined to believe it may simply be a trend on my Data Center rather than one that's widely used. YMMV,

  4. #50704
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The most effective of which is stopping people from dying because they screwed up. Not letting them overpull and die is one of those uses, imo.



    Healers do it to me all the time. I've done it to other tanks on occasion too, it's a reasonably common thing to see in my groups when I'm DPSing. It's always been understood as a universal "don't pull any more" in all situations.

    It could just be something that happens on my data center perhaps, but I was under the impression it was widely used and understood. Apparently I was wrong on that count.
    There's no such thing as overpulling.

  5. #50705
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    19,917
    Quote Originally Posted by BiggestNoob View Post
    There's no such thing as overpulling.
    There is for beginners of the game.
    Sure, us veterans can't overpull anymore.

  6. #50706
    Considering my Halatali group wiped because the tank pulled more than I could heal for I don't see how anyone can say there's no such thing as overpulling.

    Unless there's some secret here I'm missing to keep a low level tank up against 8 mobs as a low level healer, in which case please share.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  7. #50707
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Considering my Halatali group wiped because the tank pulled more than I could heal for I don't see how anyone can say there's no such thing as overpulling.

    Unless there's some secret here I'm missing to keep a low level tank up against 8 mobs as a low level healer, in which case please share.
    In most dungeons anymore, it's practically impossible to overpull, given the mob segregation and forced pauses and walls and stuff. Dungeons at that level mean the players have practically full tool kits.

    In some of the lower level dungeons (by that I mean 50 and below) it's still possible because there's not as much segregation between mob sections so you can pull WAY more than you should, and classes don't have nearly their full toolkit to be able to compensate for the incoming damage.

    As @Granyala said, beginners can overpull easily by biting off more than they can chew. Veterans won't because they're more aware of how much they can't and can't handle...usually because they were a beginner once and died by overpulling, lol.

  8. #50708
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    15,022
    It's only really possible to overpull in the pre-50 ARR dungeons, as 1. those are the only dungeons in which you can pull more than 3 packs at once in between boss fights, and 2. you don't have access to overpowered tomestone gear that trivializes the numbers.

  9. #50709
    Quote Originally Posted by Isilrien View Post
    Thanks for asking this. I stopped leveling my WHM and playing my SCH for this reason. My hands were shaking at the end of Toto-Rak and then Aurum Vale...ugh.
    SCH later on becomes more difficult from a regular healing standpoint because its kit is centered on proactive healing and shielding. Predicting and denying incoming damage. It will not have as much burst potential and reactive healing tools as other healers.

  10. #50710
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Considering my Halatali group wiped because the tank pulled more than I could heal for I don't see how anyone can say there's no such thing as overpulling.

    Unless there's some secret here I'm missing to keep a low level tank up against 8 mobs as a low level healer, in which case please share.
    As others have stated that can only happen in legacy dungeons (the 1.0 dungeons) that were left in the sub 50 MSQ. There aren't a ton of them, but they certainly exist and you could possibly pull way too many mobs there. You can to some degree still prevent a wipe if everyone is well geared for whatever level the dungeon is (very unlikely for sprouts) and pushes buttons as frequently as they should, but again both these traits are very rare for existing players, let alone new ones..

  11. #50711
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenjen View Post
    SCH later on becomes more difficult from a regular healing standpoint because its kit is centered on proactive healing and shielding. Predicting and denying incoming damage. It will not have as much burst potential and reactive healing tools as other healers.
    That's why I like about the Scholar... they theme it around strategy and tactics, and to play optimally, you actively need to know the fight you're engaging in.

  12. #50712
    Heals get way easier at level 50. Well... whm does. All white mages. Once you get medica 2, the literal only choice you face is whether to heal your tank at 60% (with cure 2) or 1hp (with benediction). The rest of the time you're dpsing.

    Val keeps mentioning allagan gear and yes, it really helps (and carried me all the way through hw 3.0). But its the medica 2 crutch that makes you think 'this is the easiest class you can ever play in game!' No rotation. No looking at the boss to see which weapon theyre holding to tell you what tankbuster is coming... you just medica 2... wait, then medica 2 again.

    Your literal next test is 3.3 and the final steps of faith... and even then, youve got another healer to cover you (which you aint gonna need as a whm because we have medica 2). Oh, and now you have off global cd lily heals for tanks... this is super easy. Then at 60 you get a second benediction (tetra).

    Stormblood: What do you get? Oh! a shield spell. You gonna use this in trusts (so you can deeps a bit more). But in df groups, maybe not. You have a solid tool kit at this point. Medica 2 is your basic crutch. Afflatus solus is your insta on the move cast, cure 2 when you wanna pick someone up and are chilling, regen to pick up everyone else between mechanics, and benediction to scare the pants out of your tank).
    Shb: Affaltus misery and afflatus rapture (now youre an insta cast healer). Cure 2 no longer is a thing. You now have a shield (divine benison) a dot heal (regen), an aoe heal (afflatus rapture - but still medica 2 (or cure 3 if stacked) for the hell of it). Afflatus misery to pretend youre an aoe dpser. *assize is the literal best aoe you have i currently believe based on current in game experience (proc this every time its up in aoes)).

    Temperance (wings) if youre in savages or if you just want to flex in normal dungeons. (you dont need this in normal dungeons - this is a squeeze button for actually decent players).

    Point is, level 1-49 as a whm (sorry, thats my only experience, though i wanna level sch and ast)), youre a reaction healer... damage comes in, you need to preempt it a bit to get in position and start firing those casts out.

    From 50-69 you have way more skills to keep people up (medica 2 (a MASSIVE heal), benediction (let your tank panic), and afflatus solas (insta heal every 30 seconds)) Youre becoming a 'movement based spot/pre-emptive healer. You regen everyone (medica 2 (and regen in downtime), but your job is to dot heal everyone (in range), then let them figure out mechanics. Then res them when they dont.

    From 70-80 you are an insta cast healer with support heal gaps. You collect lilies. You use them for aoe healing. Medica 2 is now just an enhancement... kinda like cure 3 30 or so levels ago. Cast if youre worried and need to bolster your afflatus rapture. Then cure 3 for the hell of it because your mana pool no longer is a thing. But you still have that mana regen spell... so anytime you need to be greedy. Be greedy. The point is, your job is to survive, keep everyone alive, then dps between the actual mechanics. Try not to die and ruin your co-heals mana pool.

    Point is, mechanics are a much bigger (one shot) deal. Healing (itself) is still super easy (so long as people dont screw up mechanics, but if they do, better hope your mana regen isnt on cd).

    But you still have all the spot heal stuff you always had (cure 2, regen, bene, tetra, benison). Master this and healing (on a whm) is super easy (at least for the story).
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-09-24 at 01:12 PM.

  13. #50713
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    4,098
    Healers need to stop DPSing and heal their tank when it's at less than 20%

    Honestly, that run I had with an Astrologian who only spammed Gravity was terrifying.
    I did get a good use of Superbolide at least
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  14. #50714
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Healers need to stop DPSing and heal their tank when it's at less than 20%

    Honestly, that run I had with an Astrologian who only spammed Gravity was terrifying.
    I did get a good use of Superbolide at least
    Tell that to the ff14 community.

    Im not being a jerk. This is the meta. Healers who solely heal are currently the worst players in the game. I learned this (luckily) very early on. My job is literally 80% dps, 20% healing. If you wanna unbalance this, then tanks do less mitigation and/or dps take more pulsing damage and/or more dispelling needs to happen (with my one single target dispel on a 2.5sec gcd). All of this sounds like a reason i'd never want to play a healer ever again.
    The thing is, you need to make heals and tanks super braindead or no one wants to play them. Make them really narrow in high end content. But in story, they need to be so much more fun than dps or you have massive dps queues for duty finder dungeons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Not sure I'd get in the habit of this too much. Medica 2 is low potency, and the Regen effect much smaller than the actual Regen spell. It's also more mana than most spells, though this isn't an issue in shorter fights.

    Unless there's actual group damage going out and you need an AoE heal - and you're sure the Regen won't be wasted, in which case Medica 1 is actually much better - it's not a good idea to just keep using Medica 2 constantly.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Hey, pipe down over there, if you're alive to complain then what's the problem?
    I get the point. but its super effective. On paper it might lack something. But in game, medica 2 is ultra powerful as a crutch heal. Not only does it flatten incoming damage (multiply it with benison and regen if you need to), but it grants you time to utilise your entire tool-kit and never have want for mana. The literal last time i struggled with mana was... i forget... i think it was a level 30ish dungeon? (it had dragons in it, and was the first and last time i worried about mana - i think it was the airship quest).

    Pre 50 (especially 40-50 dungeons are hard as a heal - but thats because you havent yet embraced the incredible power of holy quite yet), its tough. Once you get holy (goodbye trash issues), and medica 2 (goodbye aoe damage), all you have to think about is burst. And at 50 you get an oh shit (bene) button. The class is starting to make sense.

    And prospective whm's... it actually gets easier here on in. Whm is... White mage, i, ippollite believe, is such a good class at end game. I think i have every single skill available to me to save any single idiot who didnt listen. (thanks rescue).
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-09-24 at 01:39 PM.

  15. #50715
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    4,098
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Tell that to the ff14 community.

    Im not being a jerk. This is the meta. Healers who solely heal are currently the worst players in the game..
    Im not asking them to stop DPSing. Healers that dps actually make the dungeon faster and help out when heals are not needed

    Im only saying to stop DPS when the tank is at LESS than 20% to maybe, you know, do their job as healer
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  16. #50716
    I don't let my tanks go below 50% if I can help it if only because I need that buffer due to lag spikes. Plus, depending on the pull, they can go from full HP to 30% in one GCD.

    I got Toto-Rak as a tank yesterday. I was the only sprout and they were pushing me to do big pulls I wasn't comfortable doing. I told them I was a n00b and they backed off, but one of them said I'll get used to tanks being near invincible in low level content. Like, what? First of all, I see how much my healers are having to heal me and, having also leveled a healer, most tanks require gratuitous babysitting. I did get told I was already in the upper 50% of tanks because I was using defensive cooldowns. :P

    I've been trying AST. Got into Titan (my favorite -_-), first thought was, I will not be one of those healers who gets punted. And I wasn't, one of the DPS was. Healing a 3-man on Titan with a class I'm still learning was brutal, but we did it. Surecast saved the day completely by accident. I thought it was another Swiftcast ability, but being able to spam the AoE heal with no cooldown was fantastic.

    I haven't tried SCH because I like SMN and since they level together I haven't felt compelled to play it. DRK I like a lot, it and WAR are my favorite tanks. I'm hoping PLD is a late bloomer. (They're all in the 35-40 level range for reference.)

    I kind of wish there were gradients of sprouts. You can't tell who's brand new or 2 quests from ShB. Like, yeah, I'm on an AST or DRK, which I unlocked like 2 days ago and have done maybe half a dozen dungeons on, don't expect a lot.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  17. #50717
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I don't let my tanks go below 50% if I can help it if only because I need that buffer due to lag spikes. Plus, depending on the pull, they can go from full HP to 30% in one GCD.

    I got Toto-Rak as a tank yesterday. I was the only sprout and they were pushing me to do big pulls I wasn't comfortable doing. I told them I was a n00b and they backed off, but one of them said I'll get used to tanks being near invincible in low level content. Like, what? First of all, I see how much my healers are having to heal me and, having also leveled a healer, most tanks require gratuitous babysitting. I did get told I was already in the upper 50% of tanks because I was using defensive cooldowns. :P

    I've been trying AST. Got into Titan (my favorite -_-), first thought was, I will not be one of those healers who gets punted. And I wasn't, one of the DPS was. Healing a 3-man on Titan with a class I'm still learning was brutal, but we did it. Surecast saved the day completely by accident. I thought it was another Swiftcast ability, but being able to spam the AoE heal with no cooldown was fantastic.

    I haven't tried SCH because I like SMN and since they level together I haven't felt compelled to play it. DRK I like a lot, it and WAR are my favorite tanks. I'm hoping PLD is a late bloomer. (They're all in the 35-40 level range for reference.)

    I kind of wish there were gradients of sprouts. You can't tell who's brand new or 2 quests from ShB. Like, yeah, I'm on an AST or DRK, which I unlocked like 2 days ago and have done maybe half a dozen dungeons on, don't expect a lot.
    As a healer, As long as they ask, I will allow them to do big "pulls", but give warnings about them dieing, and tell them if they do, just slow it down, unless the tank is not using proper dmg mitigations.

    As a tank, I always examine the healers gear/search info on the player. Pull the first 2 groups depending on that, 90% of the time, yes. thenpay attention to how fast mobs die (DPS check) , then I will adjust what to pull basically on that.

  18. #50718
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    As others have stated that can only happen in legacy dungeons (the 1.0 dungeons) that were left in the sub 50 MSQ. There aren't a ton of them, but they certainly exist and you could possibly pull way too many mobs there. You can to some degree still prevent a wipe if everyone is well geared for whatever level the dungeon is (very unlikely for sprouts) and pushes buttons as frequently as they should, but again both these traits are very rare for existing players, let alone new ones..
    I'd add Bardam's Mettle to that list. While I've only been there once, the tank seemed fine in that run, judging by his gear / CDs. But he took SO MUCH damage, it was difficult to keep up, and he even died two times on larger pulls. Nothing I did before or after that came close, including sub 50 stuff.

  19. #50719
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    19,917
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Considering my Halatali group wiped because the tank pulled more than I could heal for I don't see how anyone can say there's no such thing as overpulling.

    Unless there's some secret here I'm missing to keep a low level tank up against 8 mobs as a low level healer, in which case please share.
    As I said: beginners excluded.
    Leveling dungeons with >real< leveling gear (not last expansions tome gear or HQ crafted gear) still hit like trucks.

  20. #50720
    If I do wondrous tails this week, can I save it and hand it in on week of early access?
    Last edited by blackpink; 2021-09-25 at 10:08 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •