1. #50801
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Also because anything that isn't an extreme or a savage is really easy.
    Oh yea, any of the base content outside of Savage is just really faceroll -- but thats been the case for a while: the mentality has never been related to "WoW or ex-WoW players", it exists because of how barebones of a challenge the base content is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    But man... people that are not world first clearing stuff really need to stop with the "class x is unplayable!" when they can improve their personal DPS by like 40% or more by just actually understanding the class, rather than going "what do the best players play?"
    Sure, but you also have to admit that if you play Bard; you have less chances to do things like Savage than swapping to Dancer. The jobs may not be unplayable -- but that does not mean they dont underperform compared to its competitors. Similar situation with Monk.

  2. #50802
    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    Sure, but you also have to admit that if you play Bard; you have less chances to do things like Savage than swapping to Dancer. The jobs may not be unplayable -- but that does not mean they dont underperform compared to its competitors. Similar situation with Monk.
    Why would we admit something that isn't true? There's nothing stopping you from playing bard in a Savage, or an extreme, or even an ultimate. Just because you don't play those classes doesn't mean they aren't played.

  3. #50803
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    Why would we admit something that isn't true? There's nothing stopping you from playing bard in a Savage, or an extreme, or even an ultimate. Just because you don't play those classes doesn't mean they aren't played.
    You can literally go on FF Logs and look at recorded Savage runs and see the number of parses. 5.4 and 5.5 both list Dancer nearly having twice the number of parses than Bard. This would tell me statics look more towards Dancer to buff melee damage dance partner than the other ranged physical jobs (being Bard and Machinist, where you will rarely double up on RPDPS in one group).

    Same thing with monk -- where Samurai is completely the most dominant and most sought after melee job. With Ninja and Dragoon having nearly twice the number of parses as a second melee compared to monk.

    Even if the data is not complete, it shows trends where certain jobs are less sought after than others for a variety of reasons. It doesnt make them unplayable, it just means that you'd have better chances rerolling as Savage groups would rather take something else in a limited group setting.

  4. #50804
    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    You can literally go on FF Logs and look at recorded Savage runs and see the number of parses. 5.4 and 5.5 both list Dancer nearly having twice the number of parses than Bard. This would tell me statics look more towards Dancer to buff melee damage dance partner than the other ranged physical jobs (being Bard and Machinist, where you will rarely double up on RPDPS in one group).

    Same thing with monk -- where Samurai is completely the most dominant and most sought after melee job. With Ninja and Dragoon having nearly twice the number of parses as a second melee compared to monk.

    Even if the data is not complete, it shows trends where certain jobs are less sought after than others for a variety of reasons. It doesnt make them unplayable, it just means that you'd have better chances rerolling as Savage groups would rather take something else in a limited group setting.
    Or, more people like playing those classes. Doesn't mean there's anything stopping you from playing those classes. And nothing stopping you from clearing Savage with those classes. Being unpopular doesn't mean they're bad.

  5. #50805
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    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    You can literally go on FF Logs and look at recorded Savage runs and see the number of parses. 5.4 and 5.5 both list Dancer nearly having twice the number of parses than Bard. This would tell me statics look more towards Dancer to buff melee damage dance partner than the other ranged physical jobs (being Bard and Machinist, where you will rarely double up on RPDPS in one group).

    Same thing with monk -- where Samurai is completely the most dominant and most sought after melee job. With Ninja and Dragoon having nearly twice the number of parses as a second melee compared to monk.

    Even if the data is not complete, it shows trends where certain jobs are less sought after than others for a variety of reasons. It doesnt make them unplayable, it just means that you'd have better chances rerolling as Savage groups would rather take something else in a limited group setting.
    ....you are completely not factoring in job popularity. Monk was considered the worst melee job from a gameplay perspective. I highly disagree with this take, but Bard is considered to be less fun than Dancer. Hell, Red Mage, which is the worst caster in terms of dps, has way more parses than Summoner and Black Mage.

    If you go onto a recruitment discord, you'll see that people rarely ask for 1 specific job. They ask for a role i.e. Melee, Ranged Phys, Caster, Shield or Regen Healer, or Tank.

  6. #50806
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    Or, more people like playing those classes. Doesn't mean there's anything stopping you from playing those classes. And nothing stopping you from clearing Savage with those classes. Being unpopular doesn't mean they're bad.
    But that begs the question: why are they unpopular?

    Also side question: Isnt Black Mage one of the most popular jobs in the game? If so, then why does it have one of the lowest parses in Savage if people are just bringing what they enjoy playing? Seems kind of odd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    Hell, Red Mage, which is the worst caster in terms of dps, has way more parses than Summoner and Black Mage.
    Because Red Mage is better for prog fighting due to insta-raise and Embolden damage buff. On the other hand, Black Mage might do insane DPS but Savage has a lot of movement usually which cripples them.

    If you go onto a recruitment discord, you'll see that people rarely ask for 1 specific job. They ask for a role i.e. Melee, Ranged Phys, Caster, Shield or Regen Healer, or Tank.
    True, but that also doesnt mean that there is also a specific sway in what jobs are more picked. As you said, Monk is considered the worst melee job in pure gameplay because its a pure mess of clunk. But something like Samurai having the highest pickrate also correlates it with it having some of the highest damage in the game.
    Last edited by TidalConflux; 2021-10-07 at 06:15 PM.

  7. #50807
    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    You can literally go on FF Logs and look at recorded Savage runs and see the number of parses. 5.4 and 5.5 both list Dancer nearly having twice the number of parses than Bard. This would tell me statics look more towards Dancer to buff melee damage dance partner than the other ranged physical jobs (being Bard and Machinist, where you will rarely double up on RPDPS in one group).

    Same thing with monk -- where Samurai is completely the most dominant and most sought after melee job. With Ninja and Dragoon having nearly twice the number of parses as a second melee compared to monk.

    Even if the data is not complete, it shows trends where certain jobs are less sought after than others for a variety of reasons. It doesnt make them unplayable, it just means that you'd have better chances rerolling as Savage groups would rather take something else in a limited group setting.
    You're forgetting an extremely important factor. Why do people play these jobs? Do people just have more fun with them? Do they play them because they're stronger? Because their group needs it?
    Dancer is simpler and doesn't require as much work as other jobs like Machinist or Bard to be effective, which obviously attracts people that just want a more casual job to play without dragging down their friends, because it's basically "feathers > blinking buttons > standard buttons" and there aren't that many of those to begin with, as opposed to like Dragoon that starts with an opener of like 20 unique skills that you gotta memorize and then continues with rotating between the dmg and buff/dot sequence with having to weave in jumps inbetween.
    Another thing is Samurai are strong because they have 0 group utility, but the class fantasy is also something that's very popular in general. For example if you ask people for their favorite character from FFX, Auron is probably pretty high due to his lone wolf samurai persona or longsword is the most popular weapon in Monster Hunter.
    Popularity and strength are not neccessarily directly connected

  8. #50808
    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    But that begs the question: why are they unpopular?

    Also side question: Isnt Black Mage one of the most popular jobs in the game? If so, then why does it have one of the lowest parses in Savage if people are just bringing what they enjoy playing? Seems kind of odd.
    Because they are not fun to play. Bard is good example of that. Machinist is 10x more fun to play.
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  9. #50809
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    You're forgetting an extremely important factor. Why do people play these jobs? Do people just have more fun with them? Do they play them because they're stronger? Because their group needs it?
    Dancer is simpler and doesn't require as much work as other jobs like Machinist or Bard to be effective, which obviously attracts people that just want a more casual job to play without dragging down their friends, because it's basically "feathers > blinking buttons > standard buttons" and there aren't that many of those to begin with, as opposed to like Dragoon that starts with an opener of like 20 unique skills that you gotta memorize and then continues with rotating between the dmg and buff/dot sequence with having to weave in jumps inbetween.
    Another thing is Samurai are strong because they have 0 group utility, but the class fantasy is also something that's very popular in general. For example if you ask people for their favorite character from FFX, Auron is probably pretty high due to his lone wolf samurai persona or longsword is the most popular weapon in Monster Hunter.
    Popularity and strength are not neccessarily directly connected
    Not disagreeing: however, as for how strong samurai are -- you still need two melee DPS. You rarely double up on Samurai and default to secondary DRG/NIN for second DPS and utility. Dancer is a really easy class I agree -- but its also strong with the amount of pure damage it gives its dance partner. While the class does no DPS, it makes up for it in utility. You can play BRD/MCH just fine; but there is a clear trend that people favor a class that does mostly utility in the rDPS than those who do damage.

    For as popular as Black Mage is -- you dont see it in in Savage because how the class works. I am not saying people play these classes more because they are popular -- I am saying these jobs have more parses because they are better suited and built around for Savage. You can translate this to tanking. Warrior sees a lot of numbers in Extremes and normal content; but when it comes to Savage, you rarely see them over its counterparts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Because they are not fun to play. Bard is good example of that. Machinist is 10x more fun to play.
    Yet sees basically the same amount of parses as Bard. Ill be honest, I find MCH really boring even though its one of my more favorite jobs.

  10. #50810
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    But that begs the question: why are they unpopular?
    Dancer is popular because it's easy and fun. You can turn your brain off, just push the glowing buttons, and then watch the sparkles. No need to worry about positionals, little need to worry about your rotation, etc.

    Isnt Black Mage one of the most popular jobs in the game? If so, then why does it have one of the lowest parses in Savage if people are just bringing what they enjoy playing? Seems kind of odd.
    Because Black Mage is one of the hardest jobs to play. In order to maximize your damage, you have to stand still. If you move then that's a huge DPS loss, especially if you allow your stacks to lapse if you haven't casted a spell in a few seconds. If you stand still for too long trying to get a cast off and then die to an AoE, that's a huge DPS loss. You can only really familiarize yourself with the timing and placement of AoEs in boss fights after spending several hours progressing on them, so you only start getting it down and doing good towards the end of a prog run. For everything else, queuing for something and then landing a boss you hadn't done in a while sucks because you're just not going to remember where to stand and for how long and you're going to do little DPS, and that's not fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    something like Samurai having the highest pickrate also correlates it with it having some of the highest damage in the game.
    Samurai is relatively easy, and it's a little fun. The hardest parts are 1. the positionals, and 2. remembering to use your filler combo once every minute (and making sure you have your skillspeed adjusted so that your rotation is synced).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    Another thing is Samurai are strong because they have 0 group utility
    That's another thing that makes Samurai easy. I don't have to think about when to use Trick Attack or something, or think about the state of the healer's cooldowns and mana and wonder if I should maybe toss the tank a shield. I just focus on myself. It's less mentally exhausting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    Not disagreeing: however, as for how strong samurai are -- you still need two melee DPS. You rarely double up on Samurai and default to secondary DRG/NIN for second DPS and utility. Dancer is a really easy class I agree -- but its also strong with the amount of pure damage it gives its dance partner. While the class does no DPS, it makes up for it in utility. You can play BRD/MCH just fine; but there is a clear trend that people favor a class that does mostly utility in the rDPS than those who do damage.
    Maybe if you're an ultra hardcore raider or something. I raided the first two tiers of Eden Savage with my FC and did some Savage PUGs. Nobody really cared what you brought.

  11. #50811
    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    Sure, but you also have to admit that if you play Bard; you have less chances to do things like Savage than swapping to Dancer. The jobs may not be unplayable -- but that does not mean they dont underperform compared to its competitors. Similar situation with Monk.
    Bard is the strongest ranged dps in tea and it's only second in e12s. One of the tanks in the team that got tea world first said if your range player doesnt play bard they're griefing you.

    Monk is the second strongest melee in tea and fourth strongest dps overall for the fight.

    Also world first tea and e12s had a black mage.
    Last edited by Shiira; 2021-10-07 at 08:48 PM.

  12. #50812
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Bard is the strongest ranged dps in tea and it's only second in e12s. One of the tanks in the team that got tea world first said if your range player doesnt play bard they're griefing you.
    Monk is the second strongest melee in tea and fourth strongest dps overall for the fight.
    What metrics are you even using?

  13. #50813

  14. #50814
    Pandaren Monk The Casualty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Bard is the strongest ranged dps in tea and it's only second in e12s. One of the tanks in the team that got tea world first said if your range player doesnt play bard they're griefing you.

    Monk is the second strongest melee in tea and fourth strongest dps overall for the fight.

    Also world first tea and e12s had a black mage.
    I know I would want a Bard and a Summoner for TEA. The cleave value in those first two phases is nuts.

  15. #50815
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Dancer is popular because it's easy and fun. You can turn your brain off, just push the glowing buttons, and then watch the sparkles. No need to worry about positionals, little need to worry about your rotation, etc.

    Because Black Mage is one of the hardest jobs to play. In order to maximize your damage, you have to stand still. If you move then that's a huge DPS loss, especially if you allow your stacks to lapse if you haven't casted a spell in a few seconds. If you stand still for too long trying to get a cast off and then die to an AoE, that's a huge DPS loss. You can only really familiarize yourself with the timing and placement of AoEs in boss fights after spending several hours progressing on them, so you only start getting it down and doing good towards the end of a prog run. For everything else, queuing for something and then landing a boss you hadn't done in a while sucks because you're just not going to remember where to stand and for how long and you're going to do little DPS, and that's not fun.
    Those two paragraphs sum up pretty much my entire grouping experience of the last 5 years in FFXIV.
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  16. #50816
    Man... I'm so glad that I don't have to rely on PF.
    The only thing my group is doing is "lets make it a 2-2-2-2" group and then we are done with choosing classes.

    Thankfully, DPS checks are not that tight and whenever they are, you can reach them 2 weeks later.
    But I'm not doing ultimates, so eh.

    But for Savage? That's like picking the optimal classes/specs/covenants for a +15 or something.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-10-07 at 09:23 PM.

  17. #50817
    Isnt Bard literally that high because of multi-dot like Summoner? Because MCH cant really AoE and Dancer is just lower DPS. On top of that, I agree that Bard probably would work a lot better in a progression sense (more damage, has utility). However, I would also put that Dancer still has more parses. But again, this is ultimate raiding -- where people should probably be pretty well skilled in their classes.

    This would also transition into things like Black Mage and Monk. I dont do ultimates, so Ill leave that to the people who do.

    On the Savage level -- Dancer is still ahead in parses. You can even phase that fight back to 5.4 and see that Bard is below 300 and Dancer is nearing 450. Being second in damage is whatever amidst three ranged classes that dont do that much damage. All that really tells me is MCH is bad in terms of its output compared to jobs with utility.

  18. #50818
    It doesn't matter, it's high because the class has a strength which is relevant. Classes like monk and bard aren't popular, but the reason why has nothing to do with their performance.

  19. #50819
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    I mean the reason you see Black Mage is pretty simple, it's one of most iconic jobs in the entirety of FF even if it's not the best progression job. When people think FF they certainly don't think of a Bard.

    The jobs that immediately jump out to me and are iconic are WHM, BLM, DRG, DRK, and PLD. Others are iconic as well, but visually these ones are pretty distinct and you know immediately what they are if they're wearing the armor tailored towards the job.

    Some jobs are just a lot easier to play in hard content too, and anybody who has tried BLM at all in any heavy movement scenarios knows how awful it feels to play. A lot of jobs are just learning the rhythm of an encounter step by step, while a class like BLM learns that as well by seeing how little they can truly move or what they can get hit by. BLM to me feels like playing a Fire Mage in WoW, except 75% of the time you're hard casting pyro blast lol.

    My complaints about the preview of DRK was simply that it felt weird that blood weapon and delirium were essentially the same, except they removed one of them being changed by skill speed while keeping the other. Sort of devalues the stat completely. That and just adding more oGCD abilities that are slightly more powerful versions of other oGCD abilities you got while leveling in past expansions.

  20. #50820
    Why must you guys turn every fun thing into a big brain dick measurement contest?

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