1. #50921
    There isn't any meaning behind it.

    The characters in the ARR cinematic (also the 1.x ending cinematic) are the players, who are teleported 5 years into the future.

    If you had a legacy account (played 1.x) then you had a different intro than the rest of the players in ARR. It showed you teleporting outside of your chosen city state, instead of arriving with a carriage or ship.

  2. #50922
    I suspect the New World release has chipped into everyone's numbers as people are interested in checking out the newest MMO on the scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Anyways, the early game is the first impression. And i reckon its somewhere between those two standpoints for most players (either incredibly overwhelming or incredibly passive). And unfortunately until they do something about it, thats every new players introduction to the game... and no amount of 'I PROMISE!!! PLEASE STICK WITH IT!!! IT GETS SO MUCH BETTER!!!" is going to change someone's mind. If you get over it, the game delivers in spades. But it's hard to believe that more than 50% make it past that point (id be more inclined to believe x<30% if im honest).
    I would've been one of them if I hadn't spoiled myself with ShB. There was very little I enjoyed about ARR and what I did enjoy was the 1-20 (specifically Ul'Dah) MSQ, it went downhill from there for me. The parts where people say it picks up, like after the horrendous 'wine & cheese' chain, did not for me. I think it was around that time I decided to 'skip to the end'.

    I have a lot of thoughts about how completely unnecessary the bulk of ARR is even after the streamlining. Regardless, it's a huge barrier of entry that I imagine has cost them no small number of players who might've enjoyed HW+.

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Why are the warriors of darkness the literal 1.x/2.0 canon?
    5.0 spoilers, I guess? The WoDs were supposed to be mirrors of the WoLs just like the First is a mirror (of sorts) of the Source.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  3. #50923
    Quote Originally Posted by dlld View Post
    Steam version was launched in 2014, i'd say that is fairly long ago. Steamcharts is the only thing we have to to make some calculations on people playing the game but it counts concurrency while wow has always came in the form or subs or MAU's.

    Technically speaking, concurrency can drop 50% but not effect subs or MAU's at all so it's something worth keeping in mind. There is a casual relationship with concurrency and total amount of players ofcourse but it's not 1:1 and it constantly shifts depending on multiple factors.

    The best use of it will be to compare ShB launch peak to the upcoming Endwalker launch peak to see how much the game has grown as a rough % as that is when everyone who has an interest in the game plays more or less at the same time. But you still can't make any definitive conclusions about actual amount of subs or MAU's beyond a minimum level.
    Indeed.

    I actually thought the steam version released more recently, but i guess i confused it with swtor.
    Still the max concurrent players ever on steam seems to be 62k and the current one around 30k. If it launched in 2014 i would say that is not a bad number. Will be interesting to see Endwalker numbers but tbh i will probably be too busy playing to care. XD
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-10-17 at 04:06 PM.

  4. #50924
    Based on the wording of some of the recent interviews, it seems that Yoshi-P isn't against further tweaking where ARR is concerned. Everything after it has less filler, but a lot of ARR could probably be shuffled over into side quests and still cover the broader plot points. I'd also like to see the final ARR MSQ dungeons to have a bit more...weight behind them. They're embarrassingly easy and don't make for a satisfying show of the antagonist's power.

  5. #50925
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Based on the wording of some of the recent interviews, it seems that Yoshi-P isn't against further tweaking where ARR is concerned. Everything after it has less filler, but a lot of ARR could probably be shuffled over into side quests and still cover the broader plot points. I'd also like to see the final ARR MSQ dungeons to have a bit more...weight behind them. They're embarrassingly easy and don't make for a satisfying show of the antagonist's power.
    Problem with that is, multiplayer content cannot scale to individual skill, unlike a singleplayer game possibly could. So when you have a good tank and a bad dps, the game cannot be tuned for both at the same time. The normal versions kinda "have" to be easy, so the majority of people can actually play and finish the story and the harder versions are for people that want the challenge.
    Also, they cannot make the fights as cinematic as they could do in a singleplayer game (unless they surprise us with whatever is the final fight of Endwalker) simply due to it being an MMO. If the fight drags on for like 5 phases with each being 10-20 minutes, it would be too much for an MMO, unlike in a singleplayer game, where bosses that take 30+ minutes are not unheard of, but you can also usually pause in those.

  6. #50926
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Based on the wording of some of the recent interviews, it seems that Yoshi-P isn't against further tweaking where ARR is concerned. Everything after it has less filler, but a lot of ARR could probably be shuffled over into side quests and still cover the broader plot points. I'd also like to see the final ARR MSQ dungeons to have a bit more...weight behind them. They're embarrassingly easy and don't make for a satisfying show of the antagonist's power.
    I was glad to hear his thoughts on it, but it sounds like it's not a priority. Seems to me that 7.0 would be the ideal opportunity to address not only ARR, but new players having to go through ~200 hours of MSQ to be caught up, especially since 6.1 is supposed to usher in a new adventure. I'm sure they have metrics that show how many people never make it through ARR, maybe it's not a big enough number for them to feel it's a cause of concern.

    I think the MSQ dungeons should be duties or trusts and the Praetorium encounters broken up individually. They would at least need to separate the Ultima Weapon from Lahabrea for the latter to truly be challenging otherwise it'd just be too much back-to-back.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  7. #50927
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    There's also "The Great Filter!"

    Relating to my own experience the first time i dipped my toes into the game (around 8.3 in wow)... It was overall a positive experience. But it wasnt a captivating experience. I got through the initial starter area quest line, visited the other cities, looked at a few houses, popped to the gold saucer... figured, this game has some fun aspects to it, but its incredibly overwhelming.

    Relating to my second attempt (from feb 2021 onwards): I could see the flaws a bit more clearly in that early game experience. The big ones might be: a) the poor pacing of class abilities. My rogue really felt this. b) the very wordy quest dialogue. c) The sheer amount of teleporting to objectives. d) (related to c), the time you spend not actively playing the game, but watching it. Oh, bonus e) the LITERAL pain in the ass just trying to set up your account (especially if you've tried the game before and want to carry on but forgot some feature of your identification (username/password etc)). I was almost crying in frustration whilst trying to give squeex my money.

    Anyways, the early game is the first impression. And i reckon its somewhere between those two standpoints for most players (either incredibly overwhelming or incredibly passive). And unfortunately until they do something about it, thats every new players introduction to the game... and no amount of 'I PROMISE!!! PLEASE STICK WITH IT!!! IT GETS SO MUCH BETTER!!!" is going to change someone's mind. If you get over it, the game delivers in spades. But it's hard to believe that more than 50% make it past that point (id be more inclined to believe x<30% if im honest).

    And cross-polinating other threads, but this might relate to the asmongold effect thread. Because if you like watching that streamer, and you SEE it does actually get better, perhaps those players may give the game the same second chance (i gave it) further down the line... so long as they remember their account info the first time they registered... like, seriously, why is it so fekkin bad? (I cheekily ask having lived in japan from 2005-2009 and 2011-2013 and completely understand why its a dumpster fire).
    I may be depraved, but I actually found the ARR patch content more interesting than most of the plot up until level 30-35 or so.

    I definitely think that MSQ and "plot-gating" is a good idea, though. I think about ways that WoW could incorporate this, even to the point of re-redesigning the leveling experience through the full history of the game (to me, the worst parts of this are the dopamine-free patch content of old expansions, but not because of the story, but the rewards.

  8. #50928
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    I may be depraved, but I actually found the ARR patch content more interesting than most of the plot up until level 30-35 or so.

    I definitely think that MSQ and "plot-gating" is a good idea, though. I think about ways that WoW could incorporate this, even to the point of re-redesigning the leveling experience through the full history of the game (to me, the worst parts of this are the dopamine-free patch content of old expansions, but not because of the story, but the rewards.
    The problem for WoW would be the stories lead into the raids, if anywhere at all. So even if they made stories mandatory they'd all end in the same audible thud that Shadowland's did.

  9. #50929
    I think it would be "unhealthy" for the game's playerbase if the story content is not "mandatory" the way it is.

    They just don't really want people to skip it. Maybe in there eyes that creates a more loyal fanbase and I'd say I agree.
    For sure some things can be cut. But it would never work like it does in WoW where the story is nearly completely irrelevant to whatever happens next.
    The game's setup is already different.

    Honestly, the game would probably benefit more from voicing more of ARR and updating the quests, than cutting them away entirely.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-10-17 at 10:57 AM.

  10. #50930
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    It doesn't matter. Just play what you want. It didn't stop players from playing other tanks in HW when DRK was op aswell.

    I hope PTR never touches this game. The media tour isn't even PTR, it's just for marketing and hype. Square actually knows how to internally test their game.
    The issue is that the media tour is inherently picking winners, which is terrible for both inclusivity and design. It's the shitty part of 1995-era game development, where blessed "game journalists" who had a track record of being kind with scores to a company would be invited to play a game before release, resulting in articles that likely did more harm than good for you and me, the customers who want information. To us, the vastly superior method of determining if you want to play a game aside from word of mouth is playing a short 20-30 minute demo, which is precisely what a PTR represents in the MMO world.

    Those picked are established creators, not top players, and not people who want to test things out themselves. New people and people who would do a much, much better job at in depth analysis than established creators can't get access and test things, and have to theorize based on incomplete information, which leads to speculation. This approach also leads to things like leaks that need to be dealt with which is more resources not going towards the game, not to mention all the effort that went into setting up this remote playing thing, cutting video/images, etc.

    No matter how good their internal testing is (it's not that good, it just exists, unlike Blizzard's), there will always be issues that will not be apparent until the game releases and people are analyzing things and trying to break the game. This doesn't happen in a 6 hour stint from 20-30 people. This is the purpose of betas and demos. Which means this approach essentially guarantees that there will be issues going into the first raid. It also means that a lot of people will need to re-learn their job after the patch which takes attention away from the game and story, where it should be. Just because they couldn't run a dungeon with the changes and get used to them ahead of time.

    A PTR doesn't need to spoil anything, and it doesn't need to be indefinitely available or treated as a staging environment where no real changes happen except fixing major bugs (Blizzard-style). It would be far superior to what they're currently doing.

  11. #50931
    Quote Originally Posted by BiggestNoob View Post
    Which means this approach essentially guarantees that there will be issues going into the first raid. It also means that a lot of people will need to re-learn their job after the patch which takes attention away from the game and story, where it should be.
    There wasn't any issues with the past first tiers, why would there be any now?

    The media tour lasted only two weeks, it wasn't really meant for testing, if it wasn't for it then there would be nothing.

    It's not a big deal, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Also, the dungeons are really easy, it's not taking away from the game and story to just play the game normally while you level up lol. I've done it multiple times each expansion. You really are making a massive deal out of this. It's not.

    The way it works is, you level up and do the msq at the start, you don't need to really know your job, because if you find dungeons hard then there's no hope for you doing normal raids and savage. After you finish the msq then you got two weeks before the raid is unlocked, plenty of time to learn and level whatever job you want.
    Last edited by Xilurm; 2021-10-17 at 05:37 PM.

  12. #50932
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    I wonder what kind of copium I'll see in response to this.
    People play ff14 through steam? wtf???

  13. #50933
    Quote Originally Posted by BiggestNoob View Post
    The issue is that the media tour is inherently picking winners, which is terrible for both inclusivity and design. It's the shitty part of 1995-era game development, where blessed "game journalists" who had a track record of being kind with scores to a company would be invited to play a game before release, resulting in articles that likely did more harm than good for you and me, the customers who want information. To us, the vastly superior method of determining if you want to play a game aside from word of mouth is playing a short 20-30 minute demo, which is precisely what a PTR represents in the MMO world.

    Those picked are established creators, not top players, and not people who want to test things out themselves. New people and people who would do a much, much better job at in depth analysis than established creators can't get access and test things, and have to theorize based on incomplete information, which leads to speculation. This approach also leads to things like leaks that need to be dealt with which is more resources not going towards the game, not to mention all the effort that went into setting up this remote playing thing, cutting video/images, etc.

    No matter how good their internal testing is (it's not that good, it just exists, unlike Blizzard's), there will always be issues that will not be apparent until the game releases and people are analyzing things and trying to break the game. This doesn't happen in a 6 hour stint from 20-30 people. This is the purpose of betas and demos. Which means this approach essentially guarantees that there will be issues going into the first raid. It also means that a lot of people will need to re-learn their job after the patch which takes attention away from the game and story, where it should be. Just because they couldn't run a dungeon with the changes and get used to them ahead of time.

    A PTR doesn't need to spoil anything, and it doesn't need to be indefinitely available or treated as a staging environment where no real changes happen except fixing major bugs (Blizzard-style). It would be far superior to what they're currently doing.
    If only there was some sort of... free trial, where people were free to make that kind of decision. It's kind of funny you mention people wouldn't have the brain capacity to understand the story and some minor new job changes/additions, but you somehow think those same people are going to watch in-depth analysis videos from actual theorycrafters on how to play their job. If those are the examples you're going to use, then the information from the media tour would probably suit them best.

    It's a media tour to get the information out there, and they pay people in-house to do all of their testing. They make adjustments shortly before Savage release, then 2 weeks after they make any needed heavier changes. There will be no "issues" going into the first raid because anyone doing so is either going to be a casual and not affected, or a week 1, world first level raider, and those people do not walk into Savage with one job. Sure, sometimes they have some issues, but they more or less get worked out eventually.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  14. #50934
    Quote Originally Posted by BiggestNoob View Post

    No matter how good their internal testing is (it's not that good, it just exists, unlike Blizzard's), there will always be issues that will not be apparent until the game releases and people are analyzing things and trying to break the game. This doesn't happen in a 6 hour stint from 20-30 people. This is the purpose of betas and demos. Which means this approach essentially guarantees that there will be issues going into the first raid. It also means that a lot of people will need to re-learn their job after the patch which takes attention away from the game and story, where it should be. Just because they couldn't run a dungeon with the changes and get used to them ahead of time.

    A PTR doesn't need to spoil anything, and it doesn't need to be indefinitely available or treated as a staging environment where no real changes happen except fixing major bugs (Blizzard-style). It would be far superior to what they're currently doing.
    What makes you say that? Considering we are like 4 expansions in and there wasn't any significant problem up until now that is of any importance what so ever with the raids.
    Their internal group can beat the savage content just fine. That's all there is to test.
    FFXIV isn't as complex as WoW when it comes to mechanics and spec/class interactions.
    And who the heck does need to "re-learn" his class after an expansion has released? Wtf. That's a whole lot of nonsense.
    Neither the quest nor dungeons require you to even remotely play good/correct. You can probably get by with 1-2-3-1-2-3.

    We will probably be able to go with Trusts again anyway.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-10-17 at 07:34 PM.

  15. #50935
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    People play ff14 through steam? wtf???
    No, not really.

    In fact 2 of my friends are in that statistic due to swapping halfway through ARR from steam to the FF14 launcher.

  16. #50936
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    People play ff14 through steam? wtf???
    Yup bought it back in the ARR days on steam.

  17. #50937
    I think people vastly over-exaggerate the importance of ARR. Some of the so-called world building gets changed/retconned later on, most of the characters aren't memorable* including some of the Scions who don't get fleshed out until later, and a lot of it is just straight up filler. The main antagonists have no story arguably until ShB, the Ascians are no more than generic robed bad guys who have no motivation other than to cause chaos in the name of their "dark god".

    * I especially love every time an NPC says, "Remember me?" I have no idea who any of these people are. Okay, great, I helped you get medicine back in the day in Quarrymill, I guess that unmemorable quest line was leading up to this non-event moment? Fantastic. Same as when people say they couldn't cut the wine & cheese arc because you meet those characters later, who I can guarantee you I will not recognize when the time comes either. I'm reminded of the old gag where people feign that you've met before when you really haven't and because you can't remember they get to tell whatever story they like and you accept it. :P

    Also, regarding streamers, they are the worst people to get feedback from because they're entertainers. They're going to say/do what keeps an audience, not what they really think or feel. I've noticed every person who's started streaming FFXIV miraculously enjoys ARR despite threads everywhere of new players saying please tell me when this gets better, I think I'm going to quit, I can't keep powering through the MSQ it's so long and so bad, etc. Because no one wants to tune in to someone bitching through 50+ hours of content not to mention the stigma against skipping cutscenes/dialog.

    I still maintain that the game could've easily started at the Feast (Hell of an introduction) and not much of value would've been lost except for the quests leading up to HW.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  18. #50938
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    *importance of ARR post*
    It's a sign of good story writing that the world is interconnected and the consequences of our earlier actions, both good and bad, come back to us later. Be that the lives of people we influenced even if we don't know them (We never met the person the medicine was for at the time we got it) or how the story is weaved so its not retconning but simply established assumptions and speculation proven to be a misunderstanding, fabrication or simply untrue. Like the entire nature of certain magics in ShB not being that big of a surprise to anyone familiar with BLM spell mechanics.

    Not valueing that is on the player, not the game but thats besides the point of your post anyhow since you're speaking from the perspective of ARR's bloat. ARR sets up the foundation for everything that comes later. Can't value the big stuff as much without the little interactions and details before then that build up to it. It just doesn't hit right and feels much less impactful without it.

    That being said, it was made a long time ago under the burden and pressures of a rebuilt game with little funds and resources available, the taint of 1.0 and a lot of lessons to learn. Now that those lessons are learned (quite brilliantly that too), it could do with some adjustments to bring it on level with later content, make it a better build up and foundation.

    Yoshi P has said he is open to further adjustments of ARR over time. Hopefully we can see some filler changed to side quests. Especially the non-va lines improved because Arr has a lot of instances with fat 12 paragraph chat bubbles which could have been explained in two paragraph's or less (it only made sense for Alphinaud who was a know it all and for Urianger who is Urianger), that was seriously grating to me. But hopefully we will also have minimal loss of good stuff like the "If this isn't Thancred then we found a suitable replacement" lines which got removed.
    Last edited by Tenjen; 2021-10-18 at 07:39 AM.

  19. #50939
    The setup of the world is inconsequential if you lose the player's interest in the way it's presented.

    The "good story writing" seems to fall on the shoulders of Ishikawa, who was able to take shallow story threads from ARR and weave them into something deep and meaningful. As such, I disagree that you can't value later content without the earlier since ARR wasn't crafted from the beginning to culminate into what it did in ShB, which also makes it look worse in hindsight. Every time I do MSQ roulette I'm endlessly disappointed in Lahabrea. Plus, I watched through ShB with little context and still loved it, in fact, I can't think of anything from ARR that would've enhanced the experience though the reverse is true. I would've had no appreciation for the Crystal Tower series had it not been for ShB.

    Also, I wouldn't file cameos of obscure NPCs under 'good writing' either. I didn't remember who Laurentius was and the only reason I recognized Brayflox was because that was the name of the dungeon. I'm all for running into old characters, but they need to have left an impression. It'd be like a stranger coming up to you and saying, "You helped me once and it made all the difference!" You can be glad things worked out, but if you don't remember then it loses the impact.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  20. #50940
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I'm all for running into old characters, but they need to have left an impression. It'd be like a stranger coming up to you and saying, "You helped me once and it made all the difference!" You can be glad things worked out, but if you don't remember then it loses the impact.
    Because you are mistakenly equating a "returning cameo" as something that's meant to be surprising with just characters that would be involved with something going on actually showing back up.

    They didn't have Laurentius show up to be like, "Oh shit remember him?" He's there because he would be.

    There's a subtle difference there but a difference nonetheless.

    It's not like WoW where some person just randomly shows back up after being absent for 5 years even though there were storylines that should have involved them but they were conspicuously absent (Like Wrathion in Legion)...it's characters just being there to a thing relevant to their previous motivations or plotlines.

    I've noticed every person who's started streaming FFXIV miraculously enjoys ARR despite threads everywhere of new players saying please tell me when this gets better, I think I'm going to quit, I can't keep powering through the MSQ it's so long and so bad, etc
    Which streamers have said that ARR is amazing or anything other than above average? I've watched Asmongold, Rich Campbell, Preach, Bellular, and even Pyromancer all do ARR and while they said they enjoyed it, all 5 of them while discussing ARR during the credits talked about parts that they did not like. Just because new people aren't overselling how 'bad' ARR is like long time players trying to convince their friends not to quit during the incredibly boring Post-Titan until Coerthas parts of ARR (Or patches 2.1-2.3) doesn't mean people are just lying. People are just saying they didn't find it as bad as much as the community made it out to be.

    Rather than streamers lying about ARR being amazing to keep their audiences (Which is just ridiculous, all the people listed had audiences that were already watching them and would continue to do so either way except Pyromancer I guess), what actually happened is that FF14 players, in their fervor to defend the game at all costs even when it doesn't need to be (Like Jesse Cox points out in his FF14 vs WoW comparison video) drastically overexaggerates how 'bad' ARR is.

    I'm still a relatively new player and I heard people say that ARR is atrocious and while it most certainly has its own myriad of problems, after finishing it, I found it nowhere near as bad as the apparent public opinion (or at least the loudest opinions in the community) said that it was.
    Last edited by Drindorai; 2021-10-18 at 10:09 AM.

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