[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Kyanion]

DPS doesnt really matter in daily roulette

That said, it is disrespectful to other players to afk through it. Its faster if everyone does their part

Sure but keep applying that "Dps doesnt really matter in BLANK" and just apply it to harder content. What if people start doing it in savages? Going to call them on it? How? You were using an addon to track their damage.

The problem is in some of this content what if you get a group full of these "blank doesn't matter in blank content" people? You can and will die to some fairly simple content because it isn't soloable for many.

No doubt it is disrespectful to your group members to afk your way through the content but those people are also protected from being called on it because they can report you for using an addon to track their damage. That is where it gets a bit silly.

- - - Updated - - -

It is disrespectful, I would agree. But it's also something you can't change without going to the extreme of literally gatekeeping roulette and msq content. And honestly, I'd rather have 5000 Castrum runs with at least one player doing mediocre dps that lasts 3-5 min longer than one run where some showboating SAM starts ranting about his superior DPS and causes drama and fights in the group.

I'd rather have the showboating people that get the run over quicker. What would you rather have? Elitist pricks bragging about their incredible DPS as the content dies or a group full of AFKers and you die in easy content?

- - - Updated - - -

The worst part is that I have a feeling some people actually wish they could just lock players that underperform in their opinion out of the most basic surface level MSQ and roulette content. I'd be glad if those types of people never got humored, lmao.

I think the difference is locking out afkers and people who refuse to help. I have no problem with a bad player that is at least trying.

[Dakhath]

I'm fine with new players in daily roulette.

I'm fine with bad players in daily roulette.

I'm not fine with people who just coast through doing nothing.

We are all in the same place at the same time, please respect my time as I will respect yours. Nothing drove me crazier in this game was pre-change MSQ daily where 1-2 dipshits would just afk for 75 percent of the run.

[zealo]

Sure but keep applying that "Dps doesnt really matter in BLANK" and just apply it to harder content. What if people start doing it in savages? Going to call them on it? How? You were using an addon to track their damage.

The problem is in some of this content what if you get a group full of these "blank doesn't matter in blank content" people? You can and will die to some fairly simple content because it isn't soloable for many.

No doubt it is disrespectful to your group members to afk your way through the content but those people are also protected from being called on it because they can report you for using an addon to track their damage. That is where it gets a bit silly.

This isn't even a What If.

Anyone that's made regular use of the party finder for such content knows there are players who bring that sort of mindset with them into that as well, too many people don't leave it at the door when their crap was put up with in more easygoing content prior to that.

[Kyanion]

This isn't even a What If.

Anyone that's made regular use of the party finder for such content knows there are players who bring that sort of mindset with them into that as well, too many people don't leave it at the door when their crap was put up with in more easygoing content prior to that.

Oh I know it isn't a What If, but a reality of the game if you take the pugging route. It is just mocking the 'DPS doesnt matter' comments that are directed at MSQ and other lower forms of content as if it is magically not a thing in the savage content. Then you have people that are blasting addons but likely have no problem using said addons to find underperformers to remove them from content. It is quite funny.

[Granyala]

Since when did expecting basic competency become "elitist"?

Pissing your (general you) pants because someone "roflcopters" it in freeloot content that dies no matter what you do is pretty much the definition of elitism.
I'm all with you with the basic competency and putting in effort in content that can actually kill you.

- - - Updated - - -

Since they stated they'll take a look at the most used plugins and try to incorporate them I sure as hell hope they also take a look at their macros.

Customizable DoT timers first please. :'D
But yes, I do agree that more QoL is never wrong. People should have the option to choose.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem here with people in this mentality is you look like a drooling hypocrite if you apply the same methodology to real life scenarios.

FULL STOP.
It's a friggin' video game that most people play in the downtime from real life in order to relax and wind down. Stop making cringe real life comparisons please. Just because a player doesn't take FF too serious (Heresy, I know!), does not mean he goes through real life like that.

Not every player you encounter wants to do the high-octane maximum effort, ERMAGAAWD MY VIRTUAL PRIVATE PARTS ARE LONGER THAN YOURS! Minigame. That playstyle can be fun with likeminded individuals but do not expect that in random content.

ESPECIALLY in freeloot content.

TLR: my patience wears thin when people play so badly that they cause wipes. Anything else, I don't give a flying intercourse about when queueing randomly. Whether the dungeon takes 15 or 20 minutes is completely irrelevant to me.

[hzjf]

Both should be easily doable and since you do not chain multiple spells within one macro should work no problem.

Personally, I guess I'm just too used to rapid target switching to be bothered by it. 10yrs of Shadowpriest/healing will do that to you. ^^

- - - Updated - - -



Then don't use the duty finder and create a custom group according to your standards, lol.

Trust me, when you have me in a dungeon where performance actually matters, you will have nothing to complain about.

how does performance not matter all the time ??? Do you think you are so special that you join and be semi afk so that the fucking dungeons takes 30minutes instead of 15 ? If you join something how about you perform instead of wasting other Peoples time ?

This is so disrespectful to anybody playing normally

[Cosmic Janitor]

Hmm the housing stuff seems to be fixed now and the plots stuck with participant zero seem to have actual winners now. Sadly that also means that all plots in the private wards are now taken as well, while still 80% of the FC plots waste away..

2 more weeks till the dead FC is mine.

[Granyala]

If third-party tools and the associated discussion that comes with them were to no longer be prohibited as per the ToS, what would you do with that?

The same I do right now: parse myself and have fun.

I'd only call out low DPS in random groups if it causes us to miss enrage windows etc.
A.k.a.: preventing the clearing of content more than once.

Which, in my decade+ of experience is rarely necessary in random content (savage/extreme level excluded) since after the first wipe most folks wake up and take it seriously and stuff dies.

- - - Updated - - -

That said, it is disrespectful to other players to afk through it. Its faster if everyone does their part

In expert: yes. I've never seen anyone do that though.
In MSQ? Not really. 90% of the runs duration are unskippable cutscenes, the rest dies so quickly that it can hardly be called a fight.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you think you are so special that you join and be semi afk so that the fucking dungeons takes 30minutes instead of 15 ?

I've yet to see that in real expert dungeons. You get the odd player that has low output but I've never encountered actual AFKing.
Would be way too visible in a 4man group anyway.

MSQ is pretty much the only place where I encountered semi-AFK people because 90%+ of the run is just cutscenes.
Heck, I myself have been afking the war machina up to Nero part where everything dies instantly if 2 players shoot it.

[Yarathir]

I'm fine with new players in daily roulette.

I'm fine with bad players in daily roulette.

I'm not fine with people who just coast through doing nothing.

We are all in the same place at the same time, please respect my time as I will respect yours. Nothing drove me crazier in this game was pre-change MSQ daily where 1-2 dipshits would just afk for 75 percent of the run.

You can report and kick them for that, though, I think?

- - - Updated - - -

The same I do right now: parse myself and have fun.

I'd only call out low DPS in random groups if it causes us to miss enrage windows etc.
A.k.a.: preventing the clearing of content more than once.

Which, in my decade+ of experience is rarely necessary in random content (savage/extreme level excluded) since after the first wipe most folks wake up and take it seriously and stuff dies.

Even if it were necessary in savage/extreme, I would say it's a different beast. If you're making savage and extreme groups, you have every right (and the option) to curate those groups and invite and kick as you see fit. DPS too low? Bad attitude? Has a face you don't like? Whatever. Of course you have to do that via Discord or some other external communication application because DPS conversation or mod conversation is still ToS, but a lot of people who make group for somewhat serious content do that anyway.


It's when you start having a meltdown over Petey in MSQ roulette or a Heavensward leveling dungeon not doing good DPS even when you're getting through it just fine--that's what I have a problem with. "Toxic positivity" might well be a real thing, but if I have to draw a black and white line in the sand, I simply really don't want the community to become a cesspool where people get into fights over DPS in a queued fucking lvl 45 dungeon.

- - - Updated - - -

This isn't even a What If.

Anyone that's made regular use of the party finder for such content knows there are players who bring that sort of mindset with them into that as well, too many people don't leave it at the door when their crap was put up with in more easygoing content prior to that.

This is only a problem if you let it be a problem.

Party finder is opt-in content. Somebody (or yourself) makes a group and others can join. The group leader is free to control that group's structure however they wish in a practical sense.

If you're a party leader stuck with somebody doing abysmal DPS or refusing to adapt to/learn mechanics, you inform them via Discord and kick them. If they are deliberately griefing you, you report them. If every party leader who feels a member is not to their standards does so, said players will have to either adjust to that and improve or hit a wall because nobody wants to take a player of that caliber into savage, extreme and especially not ultimate.

If you're not the party leader and your issue is that you're in a group with a player that plays poorly and/or has a bad attitude and the leader doesn't do anything about it, that's a problem to take up with the leader for enabling it, not the system

[Granyala]

Even if it were necessary in savage/extreme, I would say it's a different beast.

Pretty sure it is necessary to watch people's performance in savage and I am reasonably sure that SE knows that, hence the lax attitude in regards to parsing. I mean we can spot the complete duds from just looking at their cast bar. Spotting someone that does mostly the right things but is held back by minor mistakes... a LOT harder to impossible to spot on the fly. Oftentimes, even the DPS number is not very helpful at all. It's a rough indicator that something is amiss but in order to find the errors you need to go deeper and do a proper log analysis.

Once you do get consistent sub 5% enrage wipes despite mechanics being well executed, you're at a point where you have to look at the raw performance.

Not that it would apply much to random groups, really. Most of them fracture once a few wipes happen anyway because someone either throws a tantrum or flat out ragequits.

[Jtbrig7390]

Okay if you want addons out of the game how will you find out who the underperformers are in savages without them? Oh. Gotcha

I don't care about savage content, I don't do it. But the way you would find out is the same way people found out in other MMO's that didn't allow addon's....

Want to use it in Savage or other content like it fine go for it. Keep that shit out of Duty Finder it isn't needed.

[Wrecktangle]

Yeah, those things would be contradictory and hypocritical, if they were in any way equivalent.

You know somebody is too serious about games when he or she compares msq roulette to college projects where you need to all contribute or there are actual consequences, such as failing the project assignment or having to carry the burden.

How do you solve the problem of disrespect from lack of effort? It's a leisure activity and totally optional, what's to be held to account? I don't fail anything if my MSQ goes 3 minutes slower.

The issue with the analogy here is that most of those things are actual, real-life things with real consequence.

MSQ roulette is not your college project or promotion at work. It's more like...I don't know...playing beer pong for shits and giggles one night and getting upset that your one friend is laughing too hard to aim, or that no one is taking it seriously enough.

What do you mean college projects where you all have to contribute? I have had many projects where people didn't pull weight. We still succeeded because others picked up the slack; but here's a real life example that has happened when only one or a few of the members show up to work: Stakeholders don't show up to meetings or give me resources and then they're literally dumbfounded when I deprioritize their project. Like you knew the consequences if you didn't participate you can't be mad or surprised.

Since we've already established that the only difference is consequences between these 2 scenarios we can move on. If you personally believe that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions (or inactions) in FF14 (or any online game) then we're at an impasse. If you believe anything else, I fail to see how you can disagree with me. Just because something is a leisure activity doesn't absolve someone of their responsibility.

Again, to be COMPLETELY clear I don't care about your DPS or how long the dungeon takes. I only care that if every single player (be it 3, 7, or 23) all put in identical effort to you (general you), would you still clear or have fun? If the answer is yes, then all is well; otherwise it's a problem. AFKing, or doing 1 button press every 10s, would not qualify. You'd have dead tanks, dead party members, and a boss at 86% HP.

Instead of going in circles about this as these discussions are wont to, I'll ask this:

If third-party tools and the associated discussion that comes with them were to no longer be prohibited as per the ToS, what would you do with that? Imagine that you may use ACT openly and address people based on the information you can glean from it. What would that change for you?

Because I can tell you right now that an AFKing Summoner, or a Summoner spamming one button in a MSQ roulette isn't likely to do so out of ignorance and won't kindly thank you for advising them to use other buttons. So then what? Mr. or Mrs. Summoner was told by you in some manner or another that they are performing badly. Now we both know they'll most likely ignore you/brush you off or get into an argument about it with you.

At the end of the day we're all social creatures. If DPS information was public and abuse was policed (as it should be), I only see benefit. Console players get more insight into their performance without needing a PC friend, players might be more open to asking questions if they see someone in the same job and gear doing much better than them, and frankly people can't AFK and hide behind the ToS anymore. The only thing it hurts is the status quo of people not wanting to be held accountable.

Anecdote here - but I once had a level 50 PLD (non sprout), who was in my leveling roulette. I think it was Tam Tara. Dude literally just spammed Shield Lob over and over, never switching targets so he only ever had aggro on one enemy at a time making everyone's life much harder. We tried offering help, he just flat out ignored us. It wasn't until the group and I decided to boot him at the last boss that he finally spoke up. He had gone through nearly 30 levels of dungeons (20-50) where NO ONE SAID ANYTHING so he thought he was doing it right. He got so abrasive and combative that he made a post on the OF bashing us. Little did he know that I made a post about him in the DF from hell post and someone actually connected the dots.

The community was surprisingly split on "who was the asshole". A lot of people blamed me for kicking him at the last boss saying we made it that far we should have just cleared and ended it and moved on, but Dozens of groups ALREADY did that. By holding him accountable he learned a valuable lesson that day and I'd like to think is a better player for it and not ruining people's experience anymore. I just wish I didn't have to do it the way it was done.

The chances that somebody playing "like a drooling something or other" as I imagine you would describe it would "mend their horrible ways" if you just give them a quick nudge and a heads-up via party or whisper chat is infinitesimal and we both know that, so can we stop pretending that this is somehow what it's all about? It feels like very bad LARP.

That isn't how I have described this situation, nor is it how I would describe it and it shows you're not really attending the discussion in good faith. I was abundantly clear what this is about. It's about equivalent effort and mutual respect.

That's the exact point. You can already report anyone for actual deliberate griefing, but short of that, having Square allow you to confront players on their "bad play" will not help anyone except those who want to stroke their ego.

The worst part is that I have a feeling some people actually wish they could just lock players that underperform in their opinion out of the most basic surface level MSQ and roulette content. I'd be glad if those types of people never got humored, lmao.

No pro parser player wants that. If you can cite someone saying it I'll be glad to apologize and edit my post.

FULL STOP.
It's a friggin' video game that most people play in the downtime from real life in order to relax and wind down. Stop making cringe real life comparisons please. Just because a player doesn't take FF too serious (Heresy, I know!), does not mean he goes through real life like that.

This is just hyperbole. No one cares if you're only putting some effort in and not your maximum, ESPECIALLY in content that doesn't demand it. That wasn't the argument nor has it ever been.

[Granyala]

No one cares if you're only putting some effort in and not your maximum, ESPECIALLY in content that doesn't demand it.

Maybe you should re-read the thread. There are quite a number of people that do care.

I've had such people in random groups in WoW, they bitched and moaned about other's DPS despite the run going smoothly and everything dying.
Idiots will be idiots.

I still maintain that this whole "effort" discussion if a moot point if we are talking about content that does not require any effort to begin with.

[Yarathir]

What do you mean college projects where you all have to contribute? I have had many projects where people didn't pull weight. We still succeeded because others picked up the slack; but here's a real life example that has happened when only one or a few of the members show up to work: Stakeholders don't show up to meetings or give me resources and then they're literally dumbfounded when I deprioritize their project. Like you knew the consequences if you didn't participate you can't be mad or surprised.

Since we've already established that the only difference is consequences between these 2 scenarios we can move on. If you personally believe that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions (or inactions) in FF14 (or any online game) then we're at an impasse. If you believe anything else, I fail to see how you can disagree with me. Just because something is a leisure activity doesn't absolve someone of their responsibility.

Again, to be COMPLETELY clear I don't care about your DPS or how long the dungeon takes. I only care that if every single player (be it 3, 7, or 23) all put in identical effort to you (general you), would you still clear or have fun? If the answer is yes, then all is well; otherwise it's a problem. AFKing, or doing 1 button press every 10s, would not qualify. You'd have dead tanks, dead party members, and a boss at 86% HP.



At the end of the day we're all social creatures. If DPS information was public and abuse was policed (as it should be), I only see benefit. Console players get more insight into their performance without needing a PC friend, players might be more open to asking questions if they see someone in the same job and gear doing much better than them, and frankly people can't AFK and hide behind the ToS anymore. The only thing it hurts is the status quo of people not wanting to be held accountable.

Anecdote here - but I once had a level 50 PLD (non sprout), who was in my leveling roulette. I think it was Tam Tara. Dude literally just spammed Shield Lob over and over, never switching targets so he only ever had aggro on one enemy at a time making everyone's life much harder. We tried offering help, he just flat out ignored us. It wasn't until the group and I decided to boot him at the last boss that he finally spoke up. He had gone through nearly 30 levels of dungeons (20-50) where NO ONE SAID ANYTHING so he thought he was doing it right. He got so abrasive and combative that he made a post on the OF bashing us. Little did he know that I made a post about him in the DF from hell post and someone actually connected the dots.

The community was surprisingly split on "who was the asshole". A lot of people blamed me for kicking him at the last boss saying we made it that far we should have just cleared and ended it and moved on, but Dozens of groups ALREADY did that. By holding him accountable he learned a valuable lesson that day and I'd like to think is a better player for it and not ruining people's experience anymore. I just wish I didn't have to do it the way it was done.



That isn't how I have described this situation, nor is it how I would describe it and it shows you're not really attending the discussion in good faith. I was abundantly clear what this is about. It's about equivalent effort and mutual respect.



No pro parser player wants that. If you can cite someone saying it I'll be glad to apologize and edit my post.



This is just hyperbole. No one cares if you're only putting some effort in and not your maximum, ESPECIALLY in content that doesn't demand it. That wasn't the argument nor has it ever been.

I just think that for the sake of upholding your stance, you're assuming a far more utopian situation. You and I can probably both agree, as I said before, that a person who plays the way we're talking about here, it's not out of ignorance. I genuinely do not believe that if damage meters were baked in or at least allowed and the accompanying discussion was allowed as well, we'd suddenly enter some kind of age where we'd have a lot more players improving and reaching out for tips.

You even say it yourself: you were in a group with somebody playing very badly and you gave them a nudge about it. They ignored you and got defensive when you did something about it. Now, or after this change, this would continue to happen.

[StrawberryZebra]

I genuinely do not believe that if damage meters were baked in or at least allowed and the accompanying discussion was allowed as well, we'd suddenly enter some kind of age where we'd have a lot more players improving and reaching out for tips.

I'd disagree here, though not for the reason you're probably expecting. The problem is FF 14 only gives you success or failure as outcomes. When your only metric is "did the boss die?" you don't get to pull a lot of useful data from that outcome.

Success means you did enough to clear the content as a group. It doesn't offer much in the way of actionable feedback. It could be the sloppiest kill imaginable, but it's still a kill.

Failure on the other hand is an opportunity to learn - It means you did something wrong, either performance wise or mechanically. If you messed up a mechanic then you get a area to improve. If you wipe due to a lack of DPS, there's nothing for you to dig into as to why your groups performance wasn't good enough. Sure, you know the DPS is too low, but how do you go about improving it? In the absense of obvious mistakes it's hard to know what you need to do to squeeze out the performance gain you need.

When people hit this stage is when they'll install ACT, join The Balance Discord and then scour the logs to see what they can do to improve.

Having those tools and resources in game makes them far more accessable to far more of the player base. Having an in game place to discuss Jobs and trade tips helps include Console players who can't simply tab out and find what they need.

If there are concerns about using them to bludgeon other players or exclude them from content then make them personal. Having the option to see your own DPS only isn't going to impact on anyone but you. Too much? Instead how about a summary of your run and general tips once you finish instead. Something like "You used Confetior 30% less than the average player" or "Your melee uptime was 100%. Perfect Pugilistic Prowess!" - Just a little something to let you know how you did, even when you did everything right.

It's a feedback issue and an access issue for me. Bringing things in game solves both of these, and puts the power to police it in Squenix's hands rather than 3rd parties.

What do you mean college projects where you all have to contribute? I have had many projects where people didn't pull weight. We still succeeded because others picked up the slack

You honestly have no idea how much this frustrates me. I've spent way to many nights doing other peoples share of the work in these types of situations simply because I refused to leave something half finished.

The worst part is these people tend to be the ones who proudly brag about "their" success. Arseholes.

It's probably why I despise any kind of collaborative work now. I'd rather just do it all myself because I know I'll need to do it all anyway and it's an easy way to avoid other peoples shit.

[Ghost of Cow]

What do you mean college projects where you all have to contribute? I have had many projects where people didn't pull weight. We still succeeded because others picked up the slack; but here's a real life example that has happened when only one or a few of the members show up to work: Stakeholders don't show up to meetings or give me resources and then they're literally dumbfounded when I deprioritize their project. Like you knew the consequences if you didn't participate you can't be mad or surprised.

Since we've already established that the only difference is consequences between these 2 scenarios we can move on. If you personally believe that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions (or inactions) in FF14 (or any online game) then we're at an impasse. If you believe anything else, I fail to see how you can disagree with me. Just because something is a leisure activity doesn't absolve someone of their responsibility.

That's just it, though. Things being similar in kind but vastly different in magnitude is important. (A bottle rocket isn't a nuclear bomb, despite being an "explosive".)

Hell, we even have an idiom just for it: Making mountains out of molehills.

Like I said, some things warrant an hard line stance on "effort". Some things don't. They are not the same. Generally speaking, most people are aware of the difference and - outside of "gamer" circles - you'd be strongly criticized for confusing one thing for the other.

All that said, I'm not going to police someone's feelings on the situation. It's fine to be frustrated with someone. Just that if your "principles" on the matter are used as an excuse to come at someone, that's not right.

[Yarathir]

I'd disagree here, though not for the reason you're probably expecting. The problem is FF 14 only gives you success or failure as outcomes. When your only metric is "did the boss die?" you don't get to pull a lot of useful data from that outcome.

Success means you did enough to clear the content as a group. It doesn't offer much in the way of actionable feedback. It could be the sloppiest kill imaginable, but it's still a kill.

Failure on the other hand is an opportunity to learn - It means you did something wrong, either performance wise or mechanically. If you messed up a mechanic then you get a area to improve. If you wipe due to a lack of DPS, there's nothing for you to dig into as to why your groups performance wasn't good enough. Sure, you know the DPS is too low, but how do you go about improving it? In the absense of obvious mistakes it's hard to know what you need to do to squeeze out the performance gain you need.

When people hit this stage is when they'll install ACT, join The Balance Discord and then scour the logs to see what they can do to improve.

Having those tools and resources in game makes them far more accessable to far more of the player base. Having an in game place to discuss Jobs and trade tips helps include Console players who can't simply tab out and find what they need.

If there are concerns about using them to bludgeon other players or exclude them from content then make them personal. Having the option to see your own DPS only isn't going to impact on anyone but you. Too much? Instead how about a summary of your run and general tips once you finish instead. Something like "You used Confetior 30% less than the average player" or "Your melee uptime was 100%. Perfect Pugilistic Prowess!" - Just a little something to let you know how you did, even when you did everything right.

It's a feedback issue and an access issue for me. Bringing things in game solves both of these, and puts the power to police it in Squenix's hands rather than 3rd parties.

This still assumes that the average "bad" player is ignorant of their performance, rather than simply not caring. The fact that you have countless of stories about people being called out and getting defensive or outright venomous in response every day proves that. Hell, Wrecktangles very own anecdote proves my point there.

I see that you have good intentions, though, and I don't think a personal built in DPS meter would be bad for people who want to improve. I just don't think they'll lead to much in practice except for the few that are truly willing to learn and improve, and chances are they'd already have gone out of their way to find a guide or some such.. The best thing you can do is accept that Duty Finder and Roulettes are a mixed bag (because please for the love of God let's not gatekeep that content) and simply curate your own parties better. Yeah, maybe Mr. One Button Summoner might get through Castrum without repercussion, but what if he tries to join a P4S group? Well, chances are he gets kicked almost right away or never even invited. Form a wall and it'll incentivize these people to improve or, barring that, stick to Duty Finder content.

[Granyala]

I genuinely do not believe that if damage meters were baked in or at least allowed and the accompanying discussion was allowed as well, we'd suddenly enter some kind of age where we'd have a lot more players improving and reaching out for tips.

Having over a decade's worth of experience in an MMO where parsers are the norm: I concur. The majority will not give a hoot.
As Ghostcrawler (WoW Developer) so aptly stated way back when: It is a myth that most players will rise to a challenge if forced to do so. Some will, sure, but most will simply quit.

Early cataclysm 5man dungeons were he best proof for that we ever needed. Completion rates were abysmal, players refused to learn, eventually Blizzard just had to swing the nerf-.bat again because the game was no longer fun when played with randoms.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Yeah, those things would be contradictory and hypocritical, if they were in any way equivalent.

You know somebody is too serious about games when he or she compares msq roulette to college projects where you need to all contribute or there are actual consequences, such as failing the project assignment or having to carry the burden.

They're perfectly equivalent. Every dungeon you do in roulette gives an equal reward to everyone. Why should I have to tolerate a person on auto follow who's occasionally casting Blizzard? Read the posts you're responding to and the context in which they offer criticism. They're not saying you have to do better than average or even average. They're saying there are people who need to not be lazy and push a few buttons. Why do you think that's too much to ask?

- - - Updated - - -

Instead of going in circles about this as these discussions are wont to, I'll ask this:

If third-party tools and the associated discussion that comes with them were to no longer be prohibited as per the ToS, what would you do with that? Imagine that you may use ACT openly and address people based on the information you can glean from it. What would that change for you?

Because I can tell you right now that an AFKing Summoner, or a Summoner spamming one button in a MSQ roulette isn't likely to do so out of ignorance and won't kindly thank you for advising them to use other buttons. So then what? Mr. or Mrs. Summoner was told by you in some manner or another that they are performing badly. Now we both know they'll most likely ignore you/brush you off or get into an argument about it with you.

So what have you gained? Ah, I see. Nothing. The only thing you stand to gain from it is:

1. The ability to fellate your own ego by publicly commenting upon your far superior DPS and incredulity at how another player can be so mediocre.

2. The ability to draw out an argument and likely post it to friends/social media for validation.

3. At the extreme end, if you manage to get people to embrace your mentality and Square to tacitly accept it, to get people kicked from duty finder msq-tier activities.

The chances that somebody playing "like a drooling something or other" as I imagine you would describe it would "mend their horrible ways" if you just give them a quick nudge and a heads-up via party or whisper chat is infinitesimal and we both know that, so can we stop pretending that this is somehow what it's all about? It feels like very bad LARP.

I've met countless people who said they only learned their rotation so others wouldn't see them as bad. Now imagine if nobody expressed the opinion that they don't want their time wasted by bad players.

It's called social pressure. Even if that one summoner did nothing, it's a discussion others are having, and others will read it, and try hard just because they don't want to be looked down upon by others for being lazy. I'd prefer it if people wanted to pull their own weight simply because they enjoyed the pleasure of succeeding and doing well, but not everyone gets off on that.

It's one of those things where there's no immediate, noticeable impact, but it creates a greater social issue and discussion that affects how people act.

On addons, I don't care if people use them. This game isn't a competition. Where WoW's atmosphere would pit you against other players as much as it could, FF14 is more about celebrating personal achievement than trying to beat others into a pulp. If you play with addons, you make the game easier for yourself (yes, it's a fact, just be proud of it dude) and so the effort you put in your rewards are diminished, but if that's what you want to do to succeed, you do you brother.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, it completely and utterly mind blowing that people take issue with others wanting them to perform on the most basic of basic of basic levels. Nobody in this thread is asking anyone to parse average or better.

Here's the entire point of this, if everyone on the development team for a game doesn't pull their weight, a game does not get made. If everyone on a production team does not pull their weight, a play would fail.

If an entire team of lazy players gets queue'd together, the dungeon w ill fail. And then they get to requeue and get people who perform far better than average to carry them. These dungeons do have enrage timers and other gameplay checks at times, and they can be failed if nobody is trying. Hell, I remember one time a LONG time ago I did get a group with 3 extremely lazy players who could not complete Amaurot because they were too far behind the final boss's soft enrage to do it after 5 attempts. It wasted my time and made me mad.

I also remember I had a conversation with someone awhile back where they stated they very frequently have bad dungeon groups, and I was saying I almost never get a bad dungeon group? Was that @Granyala or someone else? Whatever it is, if your common approach to dungeons is to half-ass, then perhaps that might explain why our experiences are so different.

[AntenoraDK]

If you need addons to do a fight, then the fight wasn't designed well. WoW is the absolute worst where you have so many unintuitive mechanics going on that you die for uncomprehendable reasons unless you have DBM or spend 5 minutes scrolling over logs. DBM being mandatory and the cacophony of information overload that came with was one of the turnoffs of WoW to me.

Mods are great. They allow one to tailor the experience of the game towards them, and address deficiencies in the game. FFXIV looks dull and washed out without reshade/gshade. Modded combat animations and sound effects and limit breaks are cooler than what you get ingame. Mods allow you to customize your summons (because it's 2022 and new Egis haven't been added yet). If you're a Hrothgar then you can't wear hats or change your hair unless you install a mod. And so on.


And, ofcourse, there is XIVAlexander, which helps alleviate the game's poor input delay. Because Westerners (including Americans) don't have single digit ping like the Japanese.

I completely agree with you about mods that help you complete a fight such as Cactbot and Triggernometry but I feel like UI mods are harmless and don't negatively impact anyone elses gaming experience.

UI mods like new UI skins are purely client side, no one see's them but the player themselves



As for the ping comment, another big problem for XIV especially for American's.


Square Enix is planning to add more data centres over the course of 2022 and 2023 with the first ones appearing in July (JP and EU) and August for North America.


So let's hope they take those kind of players into consideration.



https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...8a3986554a2#05