Mind pointing any of them out? I know the one I cited certainly didn't. I feel like you missed the point. Things can certainly go smoothly with a ton of dead weight; most 24 mans fit into this category, but remember all those bad ones? Those sloppy messy ones, that you spent more than an hour in? The same ones where too many people were half assing it and you didn't have the minimum equivalent to clear?
I do.
I don't assume it would happen suddenly. I think there'd be tremendous growing pains, but I do firmly believe that once those pains have subsided it would be a better environment for all.
To be fair though, they didn't have the information that they were doing poorly and because there was no indicator and the community is terrified to speak up which naturally reinforced to the player that they weren't doing anything incorrectly, when in reality it was cosmically bad. It's true that in this anecdote I don't think it would be solved, because this isn't a performance issue so much as it is a community issue, but that issue exists because they're terrified of performance.You even say it yourself: you were in a group with somebody playing very badly and you gave them a nudge about it. They ignored you and got defensive when you did something about it. Now, or after this change, this would continue to happen.
I'm not sure i follow this outside of gamer circles criticism that you're referencing. I'm also not sure you can cite "generally speaking" when there's pretty clearly a divide just here in this community, let alone the greater community/world.
Cata 5 mans were an outlier though; they were far too hard, and they gatekept the rest of the content. Remember, no one here is talking about difficulty or challenge, we're talking about people being accountable for their actions, i.e. afk/lazily playing with randoms because "it doesn't matter".
My post was already too long, but I wanted to touch on social pressure because it's absolutely real. No one WANTs to be excluded from groups so they'll do the bare minimum that is acceptable. Players like me just want what's acceptable to be, ya know, actually acceptable. AFK or pressing 1 button every 10s should not be acceptable from the community.
I have several runs of the Burn that are like this too (that's the one with the Mist Dragon right?). Hell I have 24 man runs that literally disbanded because of this. I even have savage floor 1 reclears where the group I joined and didn't have time to look up everyone got carried in their clears and we hit enrage, doing mechanics PERFECTLY with no deaths died to enrage at 26%. I was third highest DPS as a tank (only 200 dps behind 2nd highest) and this was in ShB when tanks were comically weak DPS wise.If an entire team of lazy players gets queue'd together, the dungeon w ill fail. And then they get to requeue and get people who perform far better than average to carry them. These dungeons do have enrage timers and other gameplay checks at times, and they can be failed if nobody is trying. Hell, I remember one time a LONG time ago I did get a group with 3 extremely lazy players who could not complete Amaurot because they were too far behind the final boss's soft enrage to do it after 5 attempts. It wasted my time and made me mad.
Could have been me, it sounds familiar? I have to post in the nightmare thread all the time, but I also run ACT during this content and it's not uncommon that I and healer are top DPS, but I certainly do not half ass it, just bad luck.I also remember I had a conversation with someone awhile back where they stated they very frequently have bad dungeon groups, and I was saying I almost never get a bad dungeon group? Was that @Granyala or someone else? Whatever it is, if your common approach to dungeons is to half-ass, then perhaps that might explain why our experiences are so different.
I don't disagree with the idea that doing the bare minimum of effort should be expected. However, the "bare minimum" is not universal. Not everyone has the same definition of what is considered the "bare minimum."
To me the bare minimum is however much is required to clear the content. More is fantastic, but not required, as some people seem to be insinuating.
Also, to me, the point of this game is for the player to enjoy themselves, enjoy playing the game. That includes me, and paying attention to and calling out other people and their performance in Duty Finder content is not enjoyable and in my experience, that rarely...exceedingly rarely does it actually ever bare fruit. Most of the time it just devolves into arguing, trash talking, and frustration which sometimes leads to people leaving which means me not being able to complete the duty which is the whole feckin point of me being there.
If social pressure will affect a person's ability to enjoy the game, then I am against using it to make them perform to someone else's definition of "bare minimum," at least in the content that can easily be cleared with their performance being sub par.
Based on my definition above, there is some content where the "bare minimum" is much higher than others and an individuals performance should be called out, scrutinized and adjusted as necessary or they won't and shouldn't participate in that content. Most of the stuff in Duty Finder is NOT that content.
I have played the vast majority of my FFXIV tenure (been playing since before ARR launched and am still subbed) without ACT. I installed it for about 2 weeks in Shadowbringers and then uninstalled it because it profoundly affected my enjoyment of the game. It didn't make me change my own performance, but made me acutely aware of everyone else's performance as well as the discrepancies in time for completion for the duties. It turned everything into a competition and changed the dynamic of my playing time. I was painfully aware of how badly some people performed, and therefore was agitated and affected by knowing that information. Whereas without ACT I simply experienced the content and.just.played the game. Having the data to see performance wasn't helping me, at all.
I'm just not that kind of player, and not everyone should or needs to be. If they want to get better they will, if they don't, they won't. I don't see the point in spending my time and energy (and affecting my personal enjoyment of the game) on trying to make other people perform to a level they don't care to, especially in Duty Finder content.
To me, ignorance is truly bliss here.
Again, I will say this mentality does not apply to the content where individual performance truly does matter. But not everyone participates in that. So that same mentality need not be applied to everything.
The underlying assumption was that every player. no matter how good or bad they may be, will eventually reach a point where they're no longer able to progress. It could be they get stuck on Ultimates or Tara-Tam, but sooner or later we all hit a roadblock and need to up our game.
The same is true in every single field. If you're playing Football you're going to reach a point where you need to put in some serious effort if you want to get better. Perhaps you need to work on your cardio, or strength training, or just plain ball handling. If you're learning to play the Piano you'll hit a point where you need to take a step back, figure out where you're going wrong and make steps to improve. Perhaps you need to work more on your scales or chords or understanding musical theory.
Video games are no different. You eventually go as far as natural talent can take you and you've got to examine what it is you're doing right, and what you could do better, if you want to improve.
I'm all for having the tools and resources in game to help with that. Street Figher has it's training room. LoL and Dota have free practice modes. WoW has it's dungeon Journal.
FF 14 has.... Training Dummies? They let you practice your rotation, but theres no feedback on if you're getting it right, or how well you're doing at it. Mentors, I suppose? But thats used mostly as a way to get XP rather than a useful way to show new players the ropes and doesn't extend the full length of the game. There's a clear information gap here that needs to be filled imo. DPS meters are a part of that, but so are better ways of communicating this information to other players in game too.
I imagine for the vast majority of the people who are doing Heavensward levels of damage in 2022, it has little to do with a roadblock and more to do with just not caring to put in any effort. If you care you are at the very least pushing buttons, and even if they aren't the optimal way of doing them, that should result in at least a fair amount that could be considered "productive" in a group. Sure, I've seen outliers in all the years I have played, but it has been the exception, not the rule.
What gets tossed around a lot is some sentiment of "I just want to relax after work" or some variation of that. I don't personally get it, as anything I'm involved in I like to try to be good at it, or at the very least try to do my best. I would never play a game of pick up basketball after work (which I am admittedly terrible at) and just not try - at that point, why am I playing?
Regardless, if its something like Alliance Roulette, or they are a DPS in an Expert Roulette, it doesn't really matter. It's disrespectful, but I don't care enough to say anything. If we fail and it's their fault, I'll just initiate a vote kick and move on. I will likely never see them in any content that requires any effort.
It's fine to want to take everything you do seriously - I never intentionally underperform myself, either - but a lot of people aren't going to be that serious, like you touched on.
It's just not worth fighting over in content where it literally just doesn't matter and one person can just about solo everything and not even slow the run down much. It's like sitting down to play Monopoly with your family and being like, "WTF BILLY WHY ARE YOU BUYING ELECTRIC COMPANY? ARE YOU EVEN TRYING, MAN?!"
I somewhat understand the desire to have some kind of empirical data that shows you that you're doing it "right" but for most video games, there isn't truly a "right" way to do it, though there are many "wrong" ways in some cases.. If you're having fun and enjoying yourself, you're doing it right and even more so if you're completing the content the game gives you. Some games are more forgiving than others in this regard.
This is especially true in MMO's where there is rarely a set in stone, you must do this thing 100% literally exactly the same way every single time or you fail type encounter. There are multiple ways for resolving some mechanics, and every encounter is slightly different because you have different classes, different rotations, different timers, etc... so it's not exactly the same every time. Very similar, yes, but not EXACTLY the same. Different guilds accomplish their first kills slightly differently from others, though I'm sure they attack resolving individual mechanics in very similar fashions.
This means "clearing the content" is exactly the metric that shows you whether you "did it right." Could you do it better, faster, more efficiently? Maybe, but that's not the point for the vast majority of content FFXIV has on offer. Simply completing it is the only metric that truly matters.
I feel like with the amount some people participate, it's a lot more akin to playing that game of Monopoly but that person only rolls the dice and goes around the board, and that is the extent of their interaction with the game. If everyone did it, the game goes nowhere, but thankfully there are typically enough players to make the game engaging. For some reason they find that fun, or at least worthwhile opposed to doing something else with their time, but as I said, I don't get it.
They're not equivalent because if you get stuck with somebody uncooperative for a project at college or you have to work with another employee that doesn't pull their weight--at best, you'll experience extreme amounts of stress and pressure having to do the work for two people and at worst there could be repercussions for not finishing what you had to finish.
The repercussions for playing with a bad or uncooperative player in FFXIV are that a dungeon takes 5 more minutes and at the extreme end that you might have to leave and queue up again.
I've met countless people who said they only learned their rotation so others wouldn't see them as bad. Now imagine if nobody expressed the opinion that they don't want their time wasted by bad players.
It's called gatekeeping and will quickly turn FFXIV from a game where people can do their daily roulette without worry to one where they have to constantly deal with players arguing, or some lofty player shitting on them because their dps is 5% less than theirs.
For the love of god, just accept that sometimes in a dungeon you'll be stuck with a player that performs awfully. It's a small price to pay for not having a WoW-esque recount dickwaving competition where people get kicked from normal dungeons for not playing "optimally." It works just fine as it is and it doesn't affect any higher end content since that is completely opt-in.
There is no hidden goldmine of people who'd go from doing 2400 dps to doing 6000 if you just tell them "dude your dps is bad." Anyone who wants to self-improve will already take that initiative and look at guides to begin with, not because the Red Mage in their party went "your bad lmao." All embracing ACT and dps-shaming culture will lead to is that the extremists will feel validated in shitting on not only the people who perform so bad it must seem like trolling, but also the people that actually try but aren't tryhard parsers. We've experienced it before, we know how this goes. This is a hard and black and white line in the sand for sure, but that's only because it necessary, because gamers have proven that they do not grasp nuance. Tell them they are allowed to discuss player performance and the worst contingent can and will ruin it for everyone. This entire mod meltdown has proven that much.
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Okay, but if this is totally on a personal basis, I'm going to make a pulled out of ass statistics guesstimation and proclaim with some confidence that under 10% of the people playing "terribly" now will suddenly find themselves waking up to that fact and will seek to self-improve. The reason for that is that the resources are already out there. There are a billion guides that might not teach you how to raid Ultimate level but at least explain how to play semi-competently. If a person wasn't looking those up in the first place, seeing their bad dps isn't going to significantly change that. That aside, I can't actually find any fault with the concept of adding a built-in personal DPS meter that only shows your own performance. Though I would argue that without anything else to compare it to, the purpose is nullified. Most people won't be able to put the DPS into context without other players to compare to, unless they google what the average dps at a certain gameplay level is, but at that point they're doing research they could've done without a dps meter.
I'm all for having the tools and resources in game to help with that. Street Figher has it's training room. LoL and Dota have free practice modes. WoW has it's dungeon Journal.
FFXIV doesn't have much, but it does have Stone, Sky, Sea. I'm pretty sure it's updated for modern content and basically it allows you to whack a training dummy for.. a few minutes, I think? Then it sees how much damage you did to it and tells you whether it was viable enough for, say, Endsinger Ex.
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As a side-note, I really would dig a training mode where you can learn the mechanics of a given fight in a vacuum. Without a group, without the boss nuking the hell out of you-- basically just a test if you can resolve the mechanic so you can improve your grasp on them.
But I suppose they might think that trivializes the content.
Last edited by Yarathir; 2022-05-19 at 08:20 PM.
You just want to dismiss the examples because they shred the point you were trying to make. Basically what you said is that because the two situations aren't exactly alike, nor do they elicit the exact same emotions from the person, they're not comparable at all. They are comparable. Not perfectly, but good enough that it was an acceptable analogy. You don't LIKE it, but these things don't care if you like them or not.
You literally cannot gatekeep someone's DPS or performance. If you tell them to up their game in game, you get reported and eventually banned if you do it enough. Me sitting here telling someone to up their game on the forums is not going to affect anything they do with me.It's called gatekeeping
You really did oil up that slippery slope and aimed for the stars huh? But like I said above, nobody is asking that players perform perfectly, excellently, or even average. It's unacceptable that someone should be doing 5% of their potential damage. Utterly unacceptable. I've kicked tens if not a couple of hundred people from groups because they were trying to mooch, labeling them as AFK. If they're pressing a button once every 10 seconds and doing almost no damage, it's not even untrue. I don't want leeches in my group, and if you come in, put someone on follow, and expect me not to notice, you're in for a rude awakening.and will quickly turn FFXIV from a game where people can do their daily roulette without worry to one where they have to constantly deal with players arguing, or some lofty player shitting on them because their dps is 5% less than theirs.
See, here's the weird part about all of this, you keep trying to use vocabulary and sentences that seem to suggest we're mad over people performing sub optimally. We're not. We want people to do more than 5% of their potential damage. Why is that so much to ask? Why must I accept that I will have these players? I don't and I won't, and I haven't.For the love of god, just accept that sometimes in a dungeon you'll be stuck with a player that performs awfully.
This is basically just one giant paragraph that bemoans people who will shit on you for not doing 95%+ of your potential DPS. Which won't happen. It's against TOS to shit on people's performance in game.There is no hidden goldmine of people who'd go from doing 2400 dps to doing 6000 if you just tell them "dude your dps is bad." Anyone who wants to self-improve will already take that initiative and look at guides to begin with, not because the Red Mage in their party went "your bad lmao." All embracing ACT and dps-shaming culture will lead to is that the extremists will feel validated in shitting on not only the people who perform so bad it must seem like trolling, but also the people that actually try but aren't tryhard parsers. We've experienced it before, we know how this goes. This is a hard and black and white line in the sand for sure, but that's only because it necessary, because gamers have proven that they do not grasp nuance. Tell them they are allowed to discuss player performance and the worst contingent can and will ruin it for everyone. This entire mod meltdown has proven that much.
Please dude, if you want to reply to our posts, respond to the topic at hand. We're not talking about extreme parsing. We're talking about NOT BEING AFK.
Is it really too much to ask that people not expect me to do all of the work for their rewards? Please answer this question. <3
“Terrible things are happening outside. Poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. Families are torn apart. Men, women, and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared.”
Diary of Anne Frank
January 13, 1943
Again, they're not the same at all. Just because they're similar ideas doesn't make them anywhere near the same when you compare them.
Family Monopoly night is not your college grade or career. I'm not sure if people are actually under the impression that they're truly similar concepts or they're just married to the analogy to win the argument or something, but it's discouraging to think that people might actually fall into the former category.
Sure. Somebody doing shit DPS in a Heavensward leveling dungeon and the dungeon taking 5 min longer is totally equivalent to you doing a college or university project with another person and failing or having to carry the entire thing yourself because the other person isn't contributing. You are very smart.
Sir, we were talking about what players want to change. This discussion started over people wanting ACT and DPS discussions to be accepted by Square. I'm simply stating why I don't want that to happen. I am fine with how it is now, more or less.
Sorry for having eyes and ears. I know I should be totally ignorant to precedent and just act as if things magically either happen or don't happen based on whether the Fairy Godmother decided it would happen, rather than acknowledging that if people had the freedom to attack each other based on DPS numbers in a game, that would inevitably also enable the worst contingent. You know, like it did in another MMORPG.. uhm, I forgot the name. It's on the tip of my tongue--oh yeah, World of Warcraft.
You're not mad but you get worked up over it? First of all, I didn't even state you were mad or anything, I'm simply saying I don't care for what reason you want DPS shaming to be enabled in FFXIV, I simply do not, and that roulette and duty finder has and always will be a mixed bag and if you don't like that, you can just start rolling with premade parties so you can be sure everybody performs to your minimum standard.
If that's what you got from the paragraph, you're beyond help. You made 0 attempt to actually engage with the content of said paragraph and now you're instructing me to answer your questions.
Last edited by Yarathir; 2022-05-20 at 11:49 AM.
Third party tools goes against the spirit of this game.........that is the spirit of having any actual customization at all other than cosmetic.
The hilarious part is you keep making this about "DPS shaming" and wanting people to play optimally because you know you can win that argument. You know what we've been saying? We want people to not AFK in our dungeons. You didn't even answer my question because you KNOW it's not too much to ask to have someone not be AFK.
Please stop straw manning and actually address what I said. You didn't address a single point in my post, at all. You just went on tangets and didn't address the meat of the subject.
We're talking about AFK people in dungeons. You're the only one here whining about sub-optimal DPS shaming. If you want to be part of the conversation, don't ADD and change the subject. Me and others have been talking on this subject. YOU responded to US. You're the one changing the topic. If you want to quote my posts, don't go on tangents because you know you can win the strawman that is your inane ramblings.
IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK THAT A PERSON NOT BE AFK OR NEAR AFK IN DUNGEONS?
Yes or no.
Any other answer will lead to my understanding that you've given up and are admitting defeat.
Here, I'll even make it EVEN EASIER for you to understand what's going on here.
No, I do not believe nor want players to DPS shame others for being sub-optimal. That answered your questions and effectively agreed with you on that part. The conversation you want to have is done. Over. I agree with you. Now get on topic. Is it too much to ask that players not be AFK in dungeons?
Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2022-05-20 at 10:56 PM.
“Terrible things are happening outside. Poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. Families are torn apart. Men, women, and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared.”
Diary of Anne Frank
January 13, 1943
Yeah, I'm done with you. You're literally just dismissing all I said to strawman (ironic as you go on to accuse me of it) my entire stance and then demand I answer your questions while pretending to be the reasonable one here.
Inb4 "waah you didn't answer my questions, you're proving me right." I literally don't care. You've proven to engage with nothing being posted, argue in bad faith, insist your bad analogies should be adhered to to proceed with the argument and now after arguing for several replies, you're insisting the argument you were having never even existed, then want to gloss over all of that to boil it down to push a question that isn't actually relevant to what I said at any point since I mentioned over a page ago that literally AFKing is considered griefing and reportable as is.
Do me a favor and warn me ahead of time that this is how you do things--it'll make it a lot easier for us in the future.
Last edited by Yarathir; 2022-05-21 at 02:11 AM.
This is just player attitude. I raided for a long time in WoW at the Cutting Edge level - not world first or even world 50, but we completed the mythic tier before the next one came out every time. And in any guild where I was raidleader/officer/eventual GM, we didn't recruit people who were dickwaving parsers. We didn't allow it. And we expected our members to carry that attitude into any pug content they were doing as long as they had our tag.
In literally more than a decade of dungeon running in WoW at high end, I've had less than a handful of pug dungeons rage quit, and it was solved with a simple kick. Now, lots of pugs disband - but that's not a toxic interaction. That's a person who values their time at a certain level, which wasn't being met, and then left because their goals weren't being met. Why should the person who values their time and contribution more have to put up with people's expectations way below theirs? You wouldn't ask the casual to put up with the person always yelling "go go go go go."
If FFXIV has such a wonderful, helpful community - they will continue to be so even if addons are introduced. It sounds like you're just afraid that the community is just forced niceness and that the aggressiveness is, by TOS, made passive.
Thus concludes my TED talk.
No, I'm just fully aware of what embracing addons, especially dps meters, has done to WoW and I don't want it to come over to FFXIV, which has somehow managed to do just fine without them until now--after the WoWfugee wave. And we're still talking about duty finder and roulette shit. Nowhere am I advocating that you should not be able to curate your own groups. Just not to turn leveling-tier content into a place where tryhards can feel validated to shit up the atmosphere.
Projection, literally doing everything you're accusing me of, but are we surprised? I answered your question and your topic at the end of the post. That ended the discussion. Did you not even read? Can you read?
I'm sorry the conversation going on here is one that you're afraid to answer a simple question for. It's a shame you responded to me. Next time you respond to my posts, please warn me before going off on tangents that have nothing to do with what I said. I accept your admission of being wrong too. Tata.
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So question I pose to everyone else who is capable of reading:
Is it too much to ask that a party member do more than 5% of the total damage in a dungeon? Is it too much to ask that a party member not be AFK?
This isn't some slippery slope where "not allowing people to AFK" leads to "OMG YOU'RE ONLY DOING 86% PARSE KICK". That kind of slippery slope will never happen because it's against the TOS. So posters like @Yarathir who seem to think this is a big deal worth discussion couldn't be more wrong. Tons of people already use ACT in dungeons. They have been for YEARS. This isn't even new in the least. If someone shames your damage in a dungeon, you can report them and get their account actioned. So worrying about "addons leading to player shaming and gatekeeping" WILL LITERALLY NEVER HAPPEN.
“Terrible things are happening outside. Poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. Families are torn apart. Men, women, and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared.”
Diary of Anne Frank
January 13, 1943
I Iove how this whole 10+ page nonsense discussion started by some idiot linking a picture of ACT from a dungeon that has over 50 Ilvl difference between the minimum and the top. And no one bothered to ask what Ilvl anyone was at.
Made an account just to say looking at your post history you sure come across as some crazy heavily opinionated nutjob that nobody should listen to. I think you think that you sound really intelligent here, and you probably think you "won" (whatever that means) but I assure you that all you've done here is embarrass yourself and ruin your precious credibility (30k posts, oh my lord so don't pretend like you don't care about how people perceive you, otherwise we wouldn't be here)
I'm not going to read all of your ramblings, but if Yarathir or whoever else is done debating with you, then I will gladly embarrass you just to prove you are not the man you think you are.
What's the topic? What are we talking about here? Toss me a quick summary and I'll dismiss every point you make.