1. #51581
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Things can certainly go smoothly with a ton of dead weight; most 24 mans fit into this category, but remember all those bad ones? Those sloppy messy ones, that you spent more than an hour in? The same ones where too many people were half assing it and you didn't have the minimum equivalent to clear?

    I do.

    Cata 5 mans were an outlier though; they were far too hard, and they gatekept the rest of the content.
    1) 24mans only become a problem when people fail the mechanics. DPS is virtually irrelevant in there, with the exception of a handful of transition phases. The last problematic 24man I remember were the Mhach ones, particularly Ozma, because the split groups combined with harsh mechanical punishments made this boss hard for many groups, since us healers could not simply resurrect and heal across alliance groups. Apart from that, problematic runs were actually quite rare for me. YMMV, different server and all that jazz. Do keep in mind: I'm a healer, so I can compensate for A LOT of fails and I usually do.
    That isn't the point of the discussion, because we are discussing DPS not execution of mechanics. Lets face it: FF-XIV is designed in a way that stuff goes down if people obey the mechanics. DPS is entirely secondary until you reach savage/ultimate. Heck, even in savage, my experience is that as soon as the mechanics are played fluidly and mostly error free, the kill is pretty much guaranteed.

    As @Katchii already pointed out: everyone defines the "bare minimum" as something else. The whiners in this thread construct a scenario of people being close to completely AFK, when that is a behavior I have encountered extremely rarely and only in MSQ, where shit literally dies anyway. For reference: I started playing in the ARR days, and often run content random (not savage or extreme though, that I only did with friends).

    So yeah: I do think this argument is 99% hyperbole and wannabe-tryhards searching for ways to feel superior. I'll gladly pick this topic back up when I actually encounter the behavior in the game and run into problems. Until then, this discussion is purely academic and we're having it while I clear content effortlessly left and right.

    2) Incorrect. Cataclysm dungeons were NOT hard. They most certainly were not harder than TBC heroics that people did just fine pre Wrath, before they got spoiled with freeloot easy faceroll dungeons for 2 years. They required a modicum of DPS, knowing which mechanics to obey, conscious healing and a handful of interrupts (wipe reason no1: people were to stupid to kick a 5s long cast UGH!).
    Ironically: that's what I'd call "minimum requirement" for qualifying as engaging content.

    Calling them "hard" in any way is laughable. Had Cata arrived right after TBC, these dungeons would not have been a problem at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Is it too much to ask that a party member do more than 5% of the total damage in a dungeon? Is it too much to ask that a party member not be AFK?
    For anyone that can relate theory with practice: does that even happen outside of 24mans and MSQ, where a dud or 2 literally do not matter?

    Heck, when I parse myself in 24mans, I actually have to put in effort in order to not be left behind completely. Since I don't raid savage, my gear ain't so hot, it's actually hard to get purple parses for my lil' DRK.

    So where are these horrible players that cause wipes and grief? :'D

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post
    What's the topic? What are we talking about here? Toss me a quick summary and I'll dismiss every point you make.
    TLR: A handful of wannabe tryhards spotted a semi-AFK player in the easiest content of the game using a parser and makes a fuss out of a theoretical doomsday scenario where players AFK left and right and see to horrible run after horrible run.

    The reality: these individuals are few and far in between, only appear in content where they know that they can get away with it, because contrary to popular belief, even the freeloaders have no interest in wiping and wasting time. In the mean time, if you are not a savage god with the item level bonus, you actually have to work for it when you want to stand in front of the randoms while parsing.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2022-05-21 at 07:31 AM.

  2. #51582
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Projection, literally doing everything you're accusing me of, but are we surprised? I answered your question and your topic at the end of the post. That ended the discussion. Did you not even read? Can you read?

    I'm sorry the conversation going on here is one that you're afraid to answer a simple question for. It's a shame you responded to me. Next time you respond to my posts, please warn me before going off on tangents that have nothing to do with what I said. I accept your admission of being wrong too. Tata.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So question I pose to everyone else who is capable of reading:

    Is it too much to ask that a party member do more than 5% of the total damage in a dungeon? Is it too much to ask that a party member not be AFK?

    This isn't some slippery slope where "not allowing people to AFK" leads to "OMG YOU'RE ONLY DOING 86% PARSE KICK". That kind of slippery slope will never happen because it's against the TOS. So posters like @Yarathir who seem to think this is a big deal worth discussion couldn't be more wrong. Tons of people already use ACT in dungeons. They have been for YEARS. This isn't even new in the least. If someone shames your damage in a dungeon, you can report them and get their account actioned. So worrying about "addons leading to player shaming and gatekeeping" WILL LITERALLY NEVER HAPPEN.
    Fine. I'll bite

    I want to preface this with saying you are speaking with an individual who is progressing on phase 6 of DSR, who has cleared every prior ultimate during it's patch cycle, and has 16 years of MMO experience including leading top 50 US raid teams in WoW, being apart of top 10 US raid teams in WoW, and finishing the most recent Savage raid tier top 100 world. I am sure you'd be surprised by most of my takes here, but I'm doing this to show that not all hardcore players, or performance driven folk have your philosophy here.

    "MSQ Roulette and college projects are perfectly equivalent."

    I believe your main point is that you believe it isn't too much to ask of folks to perform up to your standards in random groups. The question I have for you is, what are your standards? 95 percentile level damage or above? 99? Top 10 world?

    The problem with your argument is simply: This is a video game. A video game in which a multitude of different types of individuals can play with varying levels of skill. A game that has content which is gated/specifically catered towards the hardcore player, and other content that is accessible by anyone. A game where a vast majority of players actually care about the story, and make it their number 1 priority versus being a parse centric memelord who crit farms in PF 24/7.

    Not everyone wants to be the best in the world. Nor should they. People should feel comfortable playing at the level they want to play at without being hounded by toxic folk such as yourself that believes your way is the right way to play and no one elses. If you want to play hardcore, do it in a space specifically catered towards that.

    Also, I find it quite comical you are comparing having the same level of commitment for a video game to the same level of commitment one should have towards their college degree and their potential financial future. That says a lot about you as a person, and not in a good way. Sad.

    "Social pressure"

    Making the argument that peer pressure is actually a good thing is a rather narcissistic perspective. Forcing others to care about things simply because they feel like they have to fit into some social circle isn't the way to create a productive environment. The reason why this fails is eventually those players realize that they shouldn't have their opinions be influenced by some rando on the internet. The desire to want to improve the overall skill level of the community is clearly driven by some selfish desire to not play with shitty players, or have your own time wasted.

    "This game isn't a competition"

    Yikes. Contradiction.

    Your point about failing if someone doesn't pull their weight is valid. But, what is failure if not a learning experience for future success? Someone that wins and is 100% right 100% of the time doesn't exist, no matter how much you believe that to do be false. Handling being the weak link and learning how to perform in such an environment, learning how to soak up knowledge and all of that jazz is vastly important to character growth, and their experience with their betters has a huge impact on their motivation to improve. Belittle others and telling them they are wrong more often than not has the opposite effect of your desired outcome.

    You clearly have a lot to learn about social structure, and how people behave when they are challenged. You'd learn a lot from experimenting with just being a stand-up dude who tolerates playing with midcore players. I think you'd find that it's okay to not care. And you'd find it's okay to fail. Because that failure is a powerful self-motivator. Far more of a motivator than some rando telling them they suck, and they should perform up to their standards or get kicked. The irony here is when I lead my own guild I rejected many a player just like you from my guild. Toxicity breeds toxicity, and elitism breeds elitism. And elitism is a distraction from tactical analysis and team building. A skill you clearly lack.

    "You should take this game as serious as a college project"

    I would laugh if this statement wasn't truly sad. I hope your life has more happiness in it in the future and you learn something from this experience. Tata.

  3. #51583
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post
    Made an account just to say looking at your post history you sure come across as some crazy heavily opinionated nutjob that nobody should listen to. I think you think that you sound really intelligent here, and you probably think you "won" (whatever that means) but I assure you that all you've done here is embarrass yourself and ruin your precious credibility (30k posts, oh my lord so don't pretend like you don't care about how people perceive you, otherwise we wouldn't be here)

    I'm not going to read all of your ramblings, but if Yarathir or whoever else is done debating with you, then I will gladly embarrass you just to prove you are not the man you think you are.

    What's the topic? What are we talking about here? Toss me a quick summary and I'll dismiss every point you make.
    Way to come out swinging with those ad hominems champ. But good on you for making a burner account just so you could say it! You're a champ. And by the way, you come across as more combative than me. But that's to be expected since you AMDE AN ACCOUNT SPECIFICALLY TO ENGAGE WITH ME IN CONVERSATION.



    Conversation: People in dungeons are straight up AFKing or pushing one button and doing 5% of the dungeon's total damage, that's not okay.
    Yarathir: Who are you to tell them what they can and can't do? If we use addons, then we'll start having a culture where people who don't do their maximum DPS are going to be shamed and kicked!
    Me: We're not talking about people doing maximum DPS, we're talking about people who are just straight up lazy and want a free ride.
    Yarathir: BUT IF WE DON'T LET THESE PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT THEN SLIPPERY SLOPE EVERYONE WILL START SHAMING EVERYONE AHHHH
    Me: Can you please get on topic? This is about people being AFK in dungeons.
    Yarathir: You're dumb and I'm trying my hardest to make this conversation about damage meter shaming.
    Me: Damage meter shaming which literally can't happen since it's against TOS?
    Yarathir: OMG YOU DON'T GET IT I WON'T ENGAGE WITH YOU ANY MORE!




    So if you're jumping into the conversation, starting point question:

    Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post

    I want to preface this with saying you are speaking with...
    Man you really did rub one out. I led a top 50 WoW guild back in Vanilla in Naxx, funny how that works? Then spent another 10 years raid leading before bowing out because WoW became shit. I've been playing online games since the mid 90's with MUDs and eventually Ultima Online and Everquest. I've sat through 8 hour boss kills in the Planes of Hate and so forth. I have triple legend and have been taking it quite slow and easy for DSR. I have plenty of experience my guy.

    "MSQ Roulette and college projects are perfectly equivalent."
    They're analogous, in that while the situation is not the exact same, the overall concept is similar and thus one can make a fair point. Does someone AFKing in a dungeon affect your IRL as much as someone being lazy on a project? No. But during University I often carried my groups while 3 people did nothing, 2 people sorta helped, and I did 60% of the work. I resented those people for leeching a free ride off our hard work, but back then I was too nervous to confront them about it. And with how I like to succeed in everything, I was all too willing to be the stooge that did all of the work. But I made sure to tell the professors about it. Was I chicken shit for not confronting the people directly? Sure. But I wasn't going to let them off with a free ride completely.

    I believe your main point is that you believe it isn't too much to ask of folks to perform up to your standards in random groups. The question I have for you is, what are your standards? 95 percentile level damage or above? 99? Top 10 world?
    My standard is that they not be AFK. And that they perhaps press a button once every 3 or 4 seconds. So your questions asking me what my threshold is, it's pretty damn low. In roulette group content, I hardly expect someone to perform great or even average. But BEING PRESENT would be nice.



    Also, I find it quite comical you are comparing having the same level of commitment for a video game to the same level of commitment one should have towards their college degree and their potential financial future. That says a lot about you as a person, and not in a good way. Sad.
    Or perhaps it's more indicative of an overall attitude, that I take everything I do with some level of seriousness. Even when I'm having fun playing games. I'm not beating myself up over this kind of stuff or agonizing over it, but with 25 years of MMO experience, doing well is just second nature to me. It's not even a matter of practice. I have the pedigree.


    Your entire post seems to be some massive diatribe against me when you clearly have no clue what the discussion was even about. You talk about casual players who seek to improve, but do not do well yet. But you know what? If I see that someone is trying and dying a lot in a dungeon, I will gladly help them. I appreciate people who TRY. What I don't appreciate is people who don't try.

    But both you and Yarathir have tried to psychoanalyze me, as well as change what the conversation is about, or add on extras like casuals who are just bad at the game. It's pretty obvious to see when someone is trying and when someone is not my guy. Also, the psychoanalyzation and trying to get under my skin by pointing out personality traits you believe I have is a pretty cringe move. I'm smelling OMEGA projection on your part.

    So what now, now that your attempt to roll me by using the same strawman has failed?

    See that's the thing, you're trying to make this conversation about something it's not. Dragging it over into territory about the "casuals" who are having a hard time and trying so hard, omg why do you hate them? Again, it's pretty obvious when it's leeches and when it's something who's trying their best. I'm talking about the leeches. You two are trying to make it about the people trying their best. I do not shame people with ACT. I do not shame people who try. I am specifically talking about people who are lazy leeches and want a free ride. If you can't address that specifically, please take a hike.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2022-05-21 at 11:36 AM.
    “Terrible things are happening outside. Poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. Families are torn apart. Men, women, and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared.”
    Diary of Anne Frank
    January 13, 1943

  4. #51584
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Way to come out swinging with those ad hominems champ. But good on you for making a burner account just so you could say it! You're a champ. And by the way, you come across as more combative than me. But that's to be expected since you AMDE AN ACCOUNT SPECIFICALLY TO ENGAGE WITH ME IN CONVERSATION.



    Conversation: People in dungeons are straight up AFKing or pushing one button and doing 5% of the dungeon's total damage, that's not okay.
    Yarathir: Who are you to tell them what they can and can't do? If we use addons, then we'll start having a culture where people who don't do their maximum DPS are going to be shamed and kicked!
    Me: We're not talking about people doing maximum DPS, we're talking about people who are just straight up lazy and want a free ride.
    Yarathir: BUT IF WE DON'T LET THESE PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT THEN SLIPPERY SLOPE EVERYONE WILL START SHAMING EVERYONE AHHHH
    Me: Can you please get on topic? This is about people being AFK in dungeons.
    Yarathir: You're dumb and I'm trying my hardest to make this conversation about damage meter shaming.
    Me: Damage meter shaming which literally can't happen since it's against TOS?
    Yarathir: OMG YOU DON'T GET IT I WON'T ENGAGE WITH YOU ANY MORE!




    So if you're jumping into the conversation, starting point question:

    Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Man you really did rub one out. I led a top 50 WoW guild back in Vanilla in Naxx, funny how that works? Then spent another 10 years raid leading before bowing out because WoW became shit. I've been playing online games since the mid 90's with MUDs and eventually Ultima Online and Everquest. I've sat through 8 hour boss kills in the Planes of Hate and so forth. I have triple legend and have been taking it quite slow and easy for DSR. I have plenty of experience my guy.



    They're analogous, in that while the situation is not the exact same, the overall concept is similar and thus one can make a fair point. Does someone AFKing in a dungeon affect your IRL as much as someone being lazy on a project? No. But during University I often carried my groups while 3 people did nothing, 2 people sorta helped, and I did 60% of the work. I resented those people for leeching a free ride off our hard work, but back then I was too nervous to confront them about it. And with how I like to succeed in everything, I was all too willing to be the stooge that did all of the work. But I made sure to tell the professors about it. Was I chicken shit for not confronting the people directly? Sure. But I wasn't going to let them off with a free ride completely.



    My standard is that they not be AFK. And that they perhaps press a button once every 3 or 4 seconds. So your questions asking me what my threshold is, it's pretty damn low. In roulette group content, I hardly expect someone to perform great or even average. But BEING PRESENT would be nice.





    Or perhaps it's more indicative of an overall attitude, that I take everything I do with some level of seriousness. Even when I'm having fun playing games. I'm not beating myself up over this kind of stuff or agonizing over it, but with 25 years of MMO experience, doing well is just second nature to me. It's not even a matter of practice. I have the pedigree.


    Your entire post seems to be some massive diatribe against me when you clearly have no clue what the discussion was even about. You talk about casual players who seek to improve, but do not do well yet. But you know what? If I see that someone is trying and dying a lot in a dungeon, I will gladly help them. I appreciate people who TRY. What I don't appreciate is people who don't try.

    But both you and Yarathir have tried to psychoanalyze me, as well as change what the conversation is about, or add on extras like casuals who are just bad at the game. It's pretty obvious to see when someone is trying and when someone is not my guy. Also, the psychoanalyzation and trying to get under my skin by pointing out personality traits you believe I have is a pretty cringe move. I'm smelling OMEGA projection on your part.

    So what now, now that your attempt to roll me by using the same strawman has failed?

    See that's the thing, you're trying to make this conversation about something it's not. Dragging it over into territory about the "casuals" who are having a hard time and trying so hard, omg why do you hate them? Again, it's pretty obvious when it's leeches and when it's something who's trying their best. I'm talking about the leeches. You two are trying to make it about the people trying their best. I do not shame people with ACT. I do not shame people who try. I am specifically talking about people who are lazy leeches and want a free ride. If you can't address that specifically, please take a hike.
    Yeah, I really feel sorry for you bro. I mean that sincerely. You're on here raging like a 14 year old over differing opinions on a video game. I really, really, realllllly hope you understand how sad this is one day and move on from all of this. I used to be like you, which is why I can read you so damn well. It's incredibly cringeworthy listening to you spout terms you barely understand and speak on topics you have barely any experience on. For what? To be "right"? Seems to me that your life is in a pretty sorry state, so you come here to try to "win" in whatever way you can. Which, again, I get. But jesus bro, what in the holy fuck. I want you to know, unironically, not even trolling you or trying to bait you that my first reaction to seeing this ridiculous wall of text was to cringe.

    Anyway, to address your nonsense:

    When it comes to the subject of ad hominem in this particular case I believe it to be pretty appropriate to attack you specifically. Why? Because you are the source of this debate, and it comes from a very emotional perspective in which you just have to be right. You have demonstrated here with me, and with others that you cannot leave well enough alone. Which puts others in the position of just laughing at you, or feeling sorry for you like I have expressed I do.

    "Come out swinging" Yeah, I don't pull punches when it comes to dealing with children like you. And by children I don't mean your age, because it's pretty apparently you're at least 30 years old based on your join date. I mean mental maturity. Sorry if that triggers you, or whatever bro.

    "Come across as more combative" I don't know dude, I'm simply addressing your embarrassingly lengthy video game argument and expressing my pity for you. I even expressed that I hope you have a good life. The fact that you need to make this a "battle" tells me a lot about how you perceive other around you. You are unable to take advise without trying to dismiss points or arguments. There's this thing called having a "growth mindset". It's fine to be confident in your intellectual ability, or knowledge level. But when you display very obvious intent to not listen or acknowledge others perspectives you just make yourself out to look like a sad angry little man who just can't accept that people are different than you. Boo hoo.

    "Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no."

    Honestly? If you're asking me individually that question I normally go into random dungeon groups as a tank or healer both of which I have full savage BiS. I'm a turbo nerd who uses food + pre pots trash to make sure it dies incredibly quickly. Primarily because I have a job, and a life, and don't want to spend any longer than I have to in a dungeon. But, I NEVER give a flying fuck about the skill level of the other people in the group. Because I acknowledge that people just don't care as much as I do, and that's okay. What you're expressing is the equivalent of being upset that an elderly lady is taking forever to put her food up to be scanned in a grocery store. It's annoying, sure. But how you can sit there and actually try to justify your behavior is beyond me, and most people here I think. You're a dick. Plain and simple. I can see why you need to be right all the time. It's probably the only pleasurable social event that occurs in your life is when you win an argument, isn't it?

    "I lead a guild back in Naxx" "Experience"

    Yeah, I figured man. You speak like someone who isn't a shitter. I have every confidence you're a good player. It's likely you fibbed a bit on your achievements here just to show off, but frankly I don't give a shit. You're in the top 1%. But that wasn't my point. My point was to show you that I'm on or around the same level as you in terms of experience and performance, and yet I have a completely different perspective on gaming than you do. It's funny how that works out sometimes. The primary difference between the two of us comes down to accepting that people play video games at differing levels. I can accept this. And you cannot. You probably had too many 0.1% wipes and have massive PTSD as a result. It sucks, but it doesn't justify your behavior bro.

    "They're analogous" "I resented people"

    Yeah, there in lies the core issue here. You resent people for not being as good as you. Look at what it is you're typing. This is very narcissistic behavior. No one should live to others standards. Only their own. It's their life to live, and ultimately their happiness to achieve. I understand what you're getting at. Truly I do. I used to have the same sort of mindset in my early 20s. I even had the crazy idea of taking all the super intelligent people, putting them on a rocket, and just nuking the rest of the world and starting the fuck over. But the thing is, I changed. And the reason I changed had a lot to do with realizing that putting our progress as a species first is the most important. Sometimes being incredibly efficient and productive 24/7 without having joy, love, and laughter can have serious detrimental effects on a society. I understand this is somewhat philosophical and I'm making assumptions into your trains of thought here. But, I like to think I understand people like you. Far more than you'd probably realize. Look at what's happening in Korea/China when people are forced to work long hours, and become gods at what it is they do. There's a reason the free countries are the strongest countries in the world in spite of all that manual labor people are forced to do. Your way, is not the way my friend. I thought it was, but it isn't.

    "My standard is that they not be AFK."

    That's fair. That's what the kick option is for. I dunno man, I always jump into dungeons as a warrior and am capable of soloing most content in this game by myself. I find it challenging and rewarding to carry people. And often times those people I carry add me to friends and I end up giving them advise. It's not something I find to be a burden, but rather my responsibility as a seasoned MMO veteran. But if people don't want my help, that's cool. I simply look at carrying people as hard mode, or a pseudo-achievement. Your mentality screams "I'm not good enough to carry these people" True or not, it's a pretty substandard mentality for someone with as much experience as you have. If you're going to be a hardcore player, don't half ass it. Be good enough to carry most groups, or you're just not very good at all. In my opinion, anyway.

    "Or perhaps it's more indicative of an overall attitude, that I take everything I do with some level of seriousness."

    Yeah, that's what I thought you meant. I already expressed my thoughts on this philosophy above, so I'll leave it there.

    "Your entire post seems to be some massive diatribe against me when you clearly have no clue what the discussion was even about."

    It kind of was. I'm glad we got that out of the way. But I don't hate you. I was you. I pity you. I feel sorry for you. I wish you'd understand you are really just embarrassing yourself by continuing to play out this needlessly, pointless, silly discussion. Play the game. Get good. Stop engaging with idiots and mediocre players on MMO-Champion, a website that is very much still a WoW website, and go make progress on DSR. If you're going to have these sorts of discussions, do it in the various XIV discords. Or, have you gotten banned from all of them for your outrageous behavior already? :hmm:

    "I don't appreciate people who don't try"

    It's. A. Video. Game. It's meant to be fun, and what's not fun for most people, is being told that you are fucking trash and should uninstall the game. Your behavior is more likely to turn away potentially future good players from playing this game, rather than helping anyone improve in any sort of manner. There's a reason why most of the XIV community refuses to play WoW. I'll tell you right the fuck now, if I ever saw you in my group, and you acted this way in my party, I would report you and have you banned in an instant. And you'd be sitting there crying about it on the forums like you're doing now.

    "But both you and Yarathir have tried to psychoanalyze me"

    This is because you've made it very clear that your behavior is based on emotion rather than logic. You dislike something, so you get upset about it and rage about it on the WoW forums. It's weird behavior that makes most normal folk question why the fuck you are the way you are, and how we can help you see reason, or help you understand what an ass/idiot you've made yourself out to look like. No one is trying to change the subject. Everyone here has addressed all of your points. It's you that refuses to acknowledge them. It's you that refuses to budge on your points. It's you that's unwilling to go "hey, you have a point. maybe I'm wrong" or at the very fucking least "hey, I acknowledge your point. i disagree with you, but i understand why you feel the way you do."

    No bro, you are attacking everyone you see fit here who disagrees with you like a 14 year old. You're using words you probably learned in philosophy 101 about 12 years ago in freshman year of college to make yourself look intelligent. That just doesn't fly when you confront actual adults with real world experience. You know this, and that's why you can't let this go. You can't lose, can you? That'd be suicidal! :O

    I just...damn dude. Those 3 people that AFK'D Smileton the other damn must have really gotten on your nerves eh? I'm lucky enough to have other things to do and if a group is bad enough I just take the 30 minute cooldown and go do other shit around my house. Don't you? Tell me you do, please. Because every post you make makes it more and more obvious that this video game is your entire life. You can have the soundest argument in the world, and still look like a complete idiot in this situation. It's unwinnable for you. My suggestion to you would be to just...walk away.

    Or you can keep going on and on about "ad hominem" and other various fallacies that use conveniently placed "logic" to justify being an absolute asshat of a human being. It's your call.

  5. #51585
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no.
    I just kick them, one person does not get to waste 3 other peoples time.

    I used to try to help, but you get blown up on enough for trying you just stop and start kicking.

  6. #51586
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    FFXIV doesn't have much, but it does have Stone, Sky, Sea. I'm pretty sure it's updated for modern content and basically it allows you to whack a training dummy for.. a few minutes, I think? Then it sees how much damage you did to it and tells you whether it was viable enough for, say, Endsinger Ex.
    The issue I take with them is that they don't give you any feedback other than a Yes/No outcome on if your DPS is high enough.

    If you get a Yes and your DPS is high enough you don't know if that's a one off fluke or consistent without more information. You don't know if you were right on the bare minimum line or if you're doing double the damage you need to.

    If you get a No, it doesn't tell you what you need to do to get that to being a Yes. It could be anything from a lack of gear, the wrong stats, rotation errors or, the one I see most commonly, not pressing a GCD every time they're available.

    What I'd like to happen is if you fail, you get some in-game guidance on where you went wrong. It doesn't need to be a scientific breakdown that gives you 600 page spreadsheets, just a simple "Oh hey, your DPS is too low because you've not got any Materia at all. Most players of your job use Crit".

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    The reason for that is that the resources are already out there.
    I'm advocating that instead of having them just be out there, we also put them in there. In an easy to access place where players can find them. With all the tools you'd need to grow as a player and ways to get in contact with other like-minded players. Perhaps even some community curated guides or maybe a way to get in contact with a player of your job who'd be willing to be an actual Mentor.

    Not to mention that there's a lot about doing Group content that you're just expected to know. Burst windows being the obvious example. Nothing in game teaches you it, any everyone else in the group thinks you know already. It gives off the impression that content is harder and more exclusive than perhaps it really should be.

    I don't think this would help the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel players, and it won't help the absolute best of the best. But its for everyone in between and those looking to make the jump into harder content it's got a bit smoother.

  7. #51587
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post

    This isn't some slippery slope where "not allowing people to AFK" leads to "OMG YOU'RE ONLY DOING 86% PARSE KICK". That kind of slippery slope will never happen because it's against the TOS. So posters like @Yarathir who seem to think this is a big deal worth discussion couldn't be more wrong. Tons of people already use ACT in dungeons. They have been for YEARS. This isn't even new in the least. If someone shames your damage in a dungeon, you can report them and get their account actioned. So worrying about "addons leading to player shaming and gatekeeping" WILL LITERALLY NEVER HAPPEN.
    I'm on your side, and I do agree 5% is unacceptable in a dungeon, as that's pretty much afk.

    But I can understand the argument against saying that. Who gets to draw the line? 5% may be universally be seen as unacceptable. What about 25%? What about 33%? What about 50%? Surely some people will be of the attitude that 86% is too low.

    In those cases, some, like SE, think you have to either allow it all, or allow nothing. They're allowing no line-drawing, for fear of creepingly increasing line-drawing. And, fwiw, that's what happened in WoW. WotLK, when gearscore etc came out, was the most casual of metrics. As parsing increased, people's expectations of what you parsed rose. I remember a time when Heroic raiders (back when Heroic was the highest difficulty, before mythic) were fine with blue parses, because blue parses cleared content (something still true with time in WoW if all you're shooting for is Cutting Edge). Now Mythic teams generally want purple parses....and you don't really get a serious look in serious teams unless you're consistently parsing high purple/orange.

  8. #51588
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I'm on your side, and I do agree 5% is unacceptable in a dungeon, as that's pretty much afk.

    But I can understand the argument against saying that. Who gets to draw the line? 5% may be universally be seen as unacceptable. What about 25%? What about 33%? What about 50%? Surely some people will be of the attitude that 86% is too low.

    In those cases, some, like SE, think you have to either allow it all, or allow nothing. They're allowing no line-drawing, for fear of creepingly increasing line-drawing. And, fwiw, that's what happened in WoW. WotLK, when gearscore etc came out, was the most casual of metrics. As parsing increased, people's expectations of what you parsed rose. I remember a time when Heroic raiders (back when Heroic was the highest difficulty, before mythic) were fine with blue parses, because blue parses cleared content (something still true with time in WoW if all you're shooting for is Cutting Edge). Now Mythic teams generally want purple parses....and you don't really get a serious look in serious teams unless you're consistently parsing high purple/orange.
    I mean, you can tell when someone is doing 5% without any addon. All people should need to do is some semblance of a rotation, aoe on aoe pulls, st on st pulls.

    I'm sorry to people it upsets, but if you don't do at least that I'm throwing up the vote kick, I used to try to help, but the people who play like this are some of the most toxic people I've ever met half the time.

  9. #51589
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The issue I take with them is that they don't give you any feedback other than a Yes/No outcome on if your DPS is high enough.

    If you get a Yes and your DPS is high enough you don't know if that's a one off fluke or consistent without more information. You don't know if you were right on the bare minimum line or if you're doing double the damage you need to.

    If you get a No, it doesn't tell you what you need to do to get that to being a Yes. It could be anything from a lack of gear, the wrong stats, rotation errors or, the one I see most commonly, not pressing a GCD every time they're available.

    What I'd like to happen is if you fail, you get some in-game guidance on where you went wrong. It doesn't need to be a scientific breakdown that gives you 600 page spreadsheets, just a simple "Oh hey, your DPS is too low because you've not got any Materia at all. Most players of your job use Crit".
    I can't disagree, but do a lot of games do this? It makes me think kind of those dps analysis sites who tell you "you missed x of y positionals, you didn't use z on CD," etc. Handy, tbh. Would be nice to be baked in but I don't see it in a lot of games baseline.
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I'm advocating that instead of having them just be out there, we also put them in there. In an easy to access place where players can find them. With all the tools you'd need to grow as a player and ways to get in contact with other like-minded players. Perhaps even some community curated guides or maybe a way to get in contact with a player of your job who'd be willing to be an actual Mentor.

    Not to mention that there's a lot about doing Group content that you're just expected to know. Burst windows being the obvious example. Nothing in game teaches you it, any everyone else in the group thinks you know already. It gives off the impression that content is harder and more exclusive than perhaps it really should be.

    I don't think this would help the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel players, and it won't help the absolute best of the best. But its for everyone in between and those looking to make the jump into harder content it's got a bit smoother.
    Fair enough. I will stand by the fact that the people who want to improve will find the resources to do so, though. Picking myself as example--I'm not a high end player, but I did heroic raids and keystone master so it's whatever; contrary to my position here, I don't like to personally disappoint people, so any trial or dungeon I go into, I tend to look up the guide first, even if it's mildly spoilery.

    That doesn't make me great or even good, but it's just a personal courtesy because I don't wanna drag people behind too much myself. But this is a choice I myself make, and even though I wouldn't want to do it any other way, as I would be uncomfortable with potentially holding back a group, I still wouldn't advocate for making a minimum requirement for duty finder/roulette. (besides above literally AFK-tier, which is kick and reportable btw, so that was a non-argument to start with) I know that last bit doesn't have much bearing on what you yourself were saying, but it's to tie the broader topic back in, I suppose.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I'm on your side, and I do agree 5% is unacceptable in a dungeon, as that's pretty much afk.

    But I can understand the argument against saying that. Who gets to draw the line? 5% may be universally be seen as unacceptable. What about 25%? What about 33%? What about 50%? Surely some people will be of the attitude that 86% is too low.

    In those cases, some, like SE, think you have to either allow it all, or allow nothing. They're allowing no line-drawing, for fear of creepingly increasing line-drawing. And, fwiw, that's what happened in WoW. WotLK, when gearscore etc came out, was the most casual of metrics. As parsing increased, people's expectations of what you parsed rose. I remember a time when Heroic raiders (back when Heroic was the highest difficulty, before mythic) were fine with blue parses, because blue parses cleared content (something still true with time in WoW if all you're shooting for is Cutting Edge). Now Mythic teams generally want purple parses....and you don't really get a serious look in serious teams unless you're consistently parsing high purple/orange.
    As for drawing lines or crossing them, or being offered a finger and taking the whole hand, it just recently happened in XIV itself. Hell, this topic is tangentially related to exactly that.

    The community was told for years "Don't publicly use mods. We can't see what you're using on your computer, but we will ban you if you openly promote them, either by talking about them in ingame chat or by streaming with them." The community decided to entirely ignore those terms and now they got upset that they got banned for streaming with mods, as if this rule is anything new.

  10. #51590
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    I Iove how this whole 10+ page nonsense discussion started by some idiot linking a picture of ACT from a dungeon that has over 50 Ilvl difference between the minimum and the top. And no one bothered to ask what Ilvl anyone was at.
    Fucking thread is dead, had to keep it alive, also the smn was close to the 70-75 lvl range with 3/4 of his gear ilvl 400

  11. #51591
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post
    Yeah, I really feel sorry for you bro. I mean that sincerely. You're on here raging like a 14 year old over differing opinions on a video game. I really, really, realllllly hope you understand how sad this is one day and move on from all of this. I used to be like you, which is why I can read you so damn well. It's incredibly cringeworthy listening to you spout terms you barely understand and speak on topics you have barely any experience on. For what? To be "right"? Seems to me that your life is in a pretty sorry state, so you come here to try to "win" in whatever way you can. Which, again, I get. But jesus bro, what in the holy fuck. I want you to know, unironically, not even trolling you or trying to bait you that my first reaction to seeing this ridiculous wall of text was to cringe.
    lmao, dude, the fact that you made an account just to respond to me and try to call me mad and psycho analyze me, that's hella cringe. Anyway, all you do is ad hom in this first paragraph. Psychoanalyzing someone over an internet forum is the most cringe thing you can do. You don't know anything about me, and the most hilarious part is, you say you "used to be like me" but you very clearly still are.

    Chill out dude, stop getting mad. It's ok. I know my point that people shouldn't be able to AFK and get carried was incredibly contentious for some reason, and made a few people mad, but you don't need to rage out over it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post
    Honestly? If you're asking me individually that question I normally go into random dungeon groups as a tank or healer both of which I have full savage BiS. I'm a turbo nerd who uses food + pre pots trash to make sure it dies incredibly quickly. Primarily because I have a job, and a life, and don't want to spend any longer than I have to in a dungeon. But, I NEVER give a flying fuck about the skill level of the other people in the group. Because I acknowledge that people just don't care as much as I do, and that's okay. What you're expressing is the equivalent of being upset that an elderly lady is taking forever to put her food up to be scanned in a grocery store. It's annoying, sure. But how you can sit there and actually try to justify your behavior is beyond me, and most people here I think. You're a dick. Plain and simple. I can see why you need to be right all the time. It's probably the only pleasurable social event that occurs in your life is when you win an argument, isn't it?
    The most hilarious part about all of this is you still have zero reading comprehension. It's never been about caring for the skill level of people in the dungeon. If you can point out in any of my posts where I said I cared about the skill level of randos, you're welcome to correct me. But I know you won't. Because I've never said anything like that. I don't want someone to get a free ride. That's all. That you're making this about something it's not makes it pretty clear that you don't even know what the conversation is even about. Either that or you're trying to make it about something else so you can be "right" about it. That's very sad my dude.

    On top of it all, you made a burner account to respond to me. Like, you're already anonymous on the internet, but to make a burner account just to basely insult and psychoanalyze me? smh. I love how people care so much about their online names that they don't want it associated with their main account when they go to be terrible people online. I'm not afraid to show my post history, unlike you. Yes, I know you'll probably claim this is your first account, but nobody is going to believe that. It's like when someone does something awful then tells the GMs "OH MY LITTLE BROTHER GOT ON MY ACCOUNT AND SAID STUPID SHIT". Everyone knows it's BS.


    See, I used to be like you. I used to tell people that I was once like them, so I knew exactly how they operated and how they think. But for one thing that's just ultra cringe dude. Like, the biggest cringe on the internet. Plus it turns out that most of the time you don't know jack shit about people, you just have this holier-than-thou attitude. That's why I stopped doing it. Time for you to do the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway, to address your terrible post:

    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post
    When it comes to the subject of ad hominem in this particular case I believe it to be pretty appropriate to attack you specifically.
    Thank you for a admitting that this is just one big attack. Hopefully the mods can take care of it.

    "Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no."

    Honestly? If you're asking me individually that question I normally go into random dungeon groups as a tank or healer both of which I have full savage BiS. I'm a turbo nerd who uses food + pre pots trash to make sure it dies incredibly quickly. Primarily because I have a job, and a life, and don't want to spend any longer than I have to in a dungeon. But, I NEVER give a flying fuck about the skill level of the other people in the group. Because I acknowledge that people just don't care as much as I do, and that's okay.
    So far you basically just described me. I often do roulettes with the healer in my savage/ulti static. We two alone can carry the entire dungeon. They're a godly white mage that does more damage than about 80% of DPS we come across. Both of us are very often top damage. And I don't care. See, the sad part about all of this is all of your insults are based on the fact that you're projecting a falsehood on to me. The falsehood that I actually care about the skill level of other players in general. If you can find anywhere that I've said I hate casuals or people who play sub optimally, feel free. It would prove your point. But with lack of evidence for me saying as such, it proves my point and you're wrong, and all of your post is one giant bullshit fest.

    You're a dick.
    Time to look in a mirror my dude. You're not "insulting the mean angry man for the sake of the little guy", you're just a combative dick yourself, and you're just like me.

    The primary difference between the two of us comes down to accepting that people play video games at differing levels. I can accept this.
    I realized this back in Everquest dude. It's not some giant revelation. I realize you think it's a huge deal because you probably recently discovered it, but it's one of the most basic concepts of MMO gaming. But the entire post of your post is to try and paint me as someone who hates those who have the 1-95% skill levels. I'm not a hardcore shitting on casuals. The only post I've ever made is about people who AFK or don't try. If you can find otherwise, feel free. But again, lack of such evidence means you're full of shit.

    You resent people for not being as good as you.
    See, again. This whole "You hate people who are worse than you!" Nope, you're changing my words. I haven't said anything of the sort. I resent people who very clearly want a free ride. I carry people in roulettes all day and night as long as it's clear they're trying.

    This is very narcissistic behavior.
    You know what one of the hallmarks of narcissism is? Thinking you know more about someone than they do. Or thinking you know someone based on a very short interaction. You think way too highly of yourself, and I realize you probably took some PSYCH 101 class and now think you're a great psychologist. Yes, I took psych 101, 102, 103, and 104. I won't say you're some giant manchild nor any other of the attacks you've levied on me, but it's pretty clear you're projecting quite a bit.

    No one should live to others standards. Only their own. It's their life to live, and ultimately their happiness to achieve.
    Stating the obvious once more. Something I learned over 2 decades ago. Again, I realize you think you're "Schooling a child" but you're really not. You know jack shit about me. All of these massive revelations you think you're laying on me are just... *Yawn*

    I understand what you're getting at. Truly I do. I used to have the same sort of mindset in my early 20s.
    Another case of "I was once like you". Funny part is, all of this shit you said you're doing in your 20's, and all of this wisdom you learned later, I learned in my early 20's. It's telling that it took you so much longer to get this wisdom. I traveled a lot for work, meeting different people and cultures all over the world. It was wonderful and enlightening. I suggest world travel to anyone. The unfortunate part is the cost.

    I even had the crazy idea of taking all the super intelligent people, putting them on a rocket, and just nuking the rest of the world and starting the fuck over.
    Wow uh... just wow... can't say I've ever wished violence on a large number of people. In fact I only really wish violence upon Vladimir Putin for what he's brought in suffering to others. But otherwise I do not wish violence on anyone. That... says a lot about you my dude. Even if you no longer think that, the f act that you once thought yourself better than "those stupid people" is a difference between us. I've not wished violence on people for their ability to perform mentally. That's you dude. Yes, I realize you think you were "once like me" but you swung and you missed. Big time. And revealed something concerning about yourself. It seems you see "resent" and "violence" as interchangeable, or you once did. I can resent someone and not wish violence upon them. Never have wished violence on them.



    "My standard is that they not be AFK."

    That's fair.
    Wow. Wow. Holy shit. Someone finally answered the question. That's all I've been trying to ask this entire time. Is if it's bad to expect people to put in more than 0 effort. I applaud you sir. You could have just said the above quote, been the BIGGER MAN and moved on. But instead you decided to type out a humongous post berating me for being a child when you know nothing about me, embarrassing yourself for being some kind of wise person schooling a child. Again, super cringe psychoanalyzing people on the internet who you know nothing about.

    See, if you'd just said the above quote, then been like, "You seem like an angry individual and I pity you" that would have hit 100x harder than a multi paragraph essay on how I'm something I'm not. A little tip for you. Brevity is really great for driving home a point. If I want to explain a concept, it does take a lot of words to often say things. But if I'm just trying to poke at someone, a simple sentence is far better. A little bit of wisdom for you as you continue to gather knowledge in your quest, young one.



    Or you can keep going on and on about "ad hominem" and other various fallacies that use conveniently placed "logic" to justify being an absolute asshat of a human being. It's your call.
    What you're doing is literally personal attacks. Personal attacks are an emotional argument, not a logical one. You accuse me of emotion based arguments and yet... LOL

    If you need help knowing all of the ad homs you made, I'll be glad to point them out. "Asshat" is one of them, but there's a good number in your giant essay on knowing exactly how my mind works after reading a few posts.


    But your entire post is one giant attack on me, because while you jumped into this conversation to try and argue against my point, you found my point was fairly reasonable. So instead of just agreeing and moving on, you wrote an essay to insult me because you were just so mad that you had to.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2022-05-21 at 09:49 PM.
    “Terrible things are happening outside. Poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. Families are torn apart. Men, women, and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared.”
    Diary of Anne Frank
    January 13, 1943

  12. #51592
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    lmao, dude, the fact that you made an account just to respond to me and try to call me mad and psycho analyze me, that's hella cringe. Anyway, all you do is ad hom in this first paragraph. Psychoanalyzing someone over an internet forum is the most cringe thing you can do. You don't know anything about me, and the most hilarious part is, you say you "used to be like me" but you very clearly still are.

    Chill out dude, stop getting mad. It's ok. I know my point that people shouldn't be able to AFK and get carried was incredibly contentious for some reason, and made a few people mad, but you don't need to rage out over it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The most hilarious part about all of this is you still have zero reading comprehension. It's never been about caring for the skill level of people in the dungeon. If you can point out in any of my posts where I said I cared about the skill level of randos, you're welcome to correct me. But I know you won't. Because I've never said anything like that. I don't want someone to get a free ride. That's all. That you're making this about something it's not makes it pretty clear that you don't even know what the conversation is even about. Either that or you're trying to make it about something else so you can be "right" about it. That's very sad my dude.

    On top of it all, you made a burner account to respond to me. Like, you're already anonymous on the internet, but to make a burner account just to basely insult and psychoanalyze me? smh. I love how people care so much about their online names that they don't want it associated with their main account when they go to be terrible people online. I'm not afraid to show my post history, unlike you. Yes, I know you'll probably claim this is your first account, but nobody is going to believe that. It's like when someone does something awful then tells the GMs "OH MY LITTLE BROTHER GOT ON MY ACCOUNT AND SAID STUPID SHIT". Everyone knows it's BS.


    See, I used to be like you. I used to tell people that I was once like them, so I knew exactly how they operated and how they think. But for one thing that's just ultra cringe dude. Like, the biggest cringe on the internet. Plus it turns out that most of the time you don't know jack shit about people, you just have this holier-than-thou attitude. That's why I stopped doing it. Time for you to do the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway, to address your terrible post:



    Thank you for a admitting that this is just one big attack. Hopefully the mods can take care of it.

    "Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no."



    So far you basically just described me. I often do roulettes with the healer in my savage/ulti static. We two alone can carry the entire dungeon. They're a godly white mage that does more damage than about 80% of DPS we come across. Both of us are very often top damage. And I don't care. See, the sad part about all of this is all of your insults are based on the fact that you're projecting a falsehood on to me. The falsehood that I actually care about the skill level of other players in general. If you can find anywhere that I've said I hate casuals or people who play sub optimally, feel free. It would prove your point. But with lack of evidence for me saying as such, it proves my point and you're wrong, and all of your post is one giant bullshit fest.



    Time to look in a mirror my dude. You're not "insulting the mean angry man for the sake of the little guy", you're just a combative dick yourself, and you're just like me.



    I realized this back in Everquest dude. It's not some giant revelation. I realize you think it's a huge deal because you probably recently discovered it, but it's one of the most basic concepts of MMO gaming. But the entire post of your post is to try and paint me as someone who hates those who have the 1-95% skill levels. I'm not a hardcore shitting on casuals. The only post I've ever made is about people who AFK or don't try. If you can find otherwise, feel free. But again, lack of such evidence means you're full of shit.



    See, again. This whole "You hate people who are worse than you!" Nope, you're changing my words. I haven't said anything of the sort. I resent people who very clearly want a free ride. I carry people in roulettes all day and night as long as it's clear they're trying.



    You know what one of the hallmarks of narcissism is? Thinking you know more about someone than they do. Or thinking you know someone based on a very short interaction. You think way too highly of yourself, and I realize you probably took some PSYCH 101 class and now think you're a great psychologist. Yes, I took psych 101, 102, 103, and 104. I won't say you're some giant manchild nor any other of the attacks you've levied on me, but it's pretty clear you're projecting quite a bit.



    Stating the obvious once more. Something I learned over 2 decades ago. Again, I realize you think you're "Schooling a child" but you're really not. You know jack shit about me. All of these massive revelations you think you're laying on me are just... *Yawn*



    Another case of "I was once like you". Funny part is, all of this shit you said you're doing in your 20's, and all of this wisdom you learned later, I learned in my early 20's. It's telling that it took you so much longer to get this wisdom. I traveled a lot for work, meeting different people and cultures all over the world. It was wonderful and enlightening. I suggest world travel to anyone. The unfortunate part is the cost.



    Wow uh... just wow... can't say I've ever wished violence on a large number of people. In fact I only really wish violence upon Vladimir Putin for what he's brought in suffering to others. But otherwise I do not wish violence on anyone. That... says a lot about you my dude. Even if you no longer think that, the f act that you once thought yourself better than "those stupid people" is a difference between us. I've not wished violence on people for their ability to perform mentally. That's you dude. Yes, I realize you think you were "once like me" but you swung and you missed. Big time. And revealed something concerning about yourself. It seems you see "resent" and "violence" as interchangeable, or you once did. I can resent someone and not wish violence upon them. Never have wished violence on them.





    Wow. Wow. Holy shit. Someone finally answered the question. That's all I've been trying to ask this entire time. Is if it's bad to expect people to put in more than 0 effort. I applaud you sir. You could have just said the above quote, been the BIGGER MAN and moved on. But instead you decided to type out a humongous post berating me for being a child when you know nothing about me, embarrassing yourself for being some kind of wise person schooling a child. Again, super cringe psychoanalyzing people on the internet who you know nothing about.

    See, if you'd just said the above quote, then been like, "You seem like an angry individual and I pity you" that would have hit 100x harder than a multi paragraph essay on how I'm something I'm not. A little tip for you. Brevity is really great for driving home a point. If I want to explain a concept, it does take a lot of words to often say things. But if I'm just trying to poke at someone, a simple sentence is far better. A little bit of wisdom for you as you continue to gather knowledge in your quest, young one.





    What you're doing is literally personal attacks. Personal attacks are an emotional argument, not a logical one. You accuse me of emotion based arguments and yet... LOL

    If you need help knowing all of the ad homs you made, I'll be glad to point them out. "Asshat" is one of them, but there's a good number in your giant essay on knowing exactly how my mind works after reading a few posts.


    But your entire post is one giant attack on me, because while you jumped into this conversation to try and argue against my point, you found my point was fairly reasonable. So instead of just agreeing and moving on, you wrote an essay to insult me because you were just so mad that you had to.
    You're embarrassingly predictable and starting to bore me. I can see why you have 30,000 posts. Your degeneracy sure shows here.

    I made an account to put you in your place because you need a kick in the ass. You think you're hot shit, but you're really not. People like you legitimately disgust me. But, trust that I feel far more pity for you than any level of hatred or animosity. I can tell this eats at you, because you are still replying to me like a monkey.

    "Ad hom" Yep, predictable. Hence why I gave you the choice of walking away, or continuing to spew your nonsense and pseudo-intellectual rhetoric. Seems you chose the later. Shame. It terms of it being cringe well, that's a matter of your opinion. I'd view putting an asshole like you in their place as a pretty noble endeavor. I can tell by how many paragraphs of gibberish you keep babbling at me with that it's effecting you in a way I very much wanted from the very beggining. Poor baby!

    "Stop getting mad" Ironic comment coming from the guy who "takes everything I do in life with a level of seriousness" The amount of times you've contradicted yourself here is probably greater than your IQ.

    "It's never been about the skill level of people in the dungeon" There is very little difference between a very bad player, and a legitimately AFK one. In fact one might make the argument that someone that dies repeatedly is simply better to be left dead and not waste healer resources on them. As a healer main I've ignored many a player that stand in dumb shit, or do less than half my dps as a healer in a dungeon. But yeah, don't pretend like you didn't make it painfully clear what you meant by AFK players. You meant bad performers. You don't get to take a step back and redefine what you meant by your performance standards in a dungeon just because I cornered you in an argument. That's not how this works.

    I made a burner account because my main account that I had during the WoTLK days is forever lost. I no longer have access to the email address attached to that account, so I just made a new one because I occasionally (I'm talking maybe once a month) jump into the FFXIV thread here just out of curiosity to see what people are talking about. I saw your dumb ass and decided to smack you back to down reality. Nothing more. Don't make it bigger than it is.

    Once again you've completely ignored all of my comments, and are circling around them because you have nothing to say but "hurrdurr ur cringe xdxd" Get a grip. You're cornered and you know it, and everyone here knows it. You've made a complete ass of yourself, and I hit the nail on the head as to the kind of person you are. You know this, and that's why you keep replying to me. No words will change that reality, and no argument will save you from the ass kicking you already received. And just know, that you have 30,000 posts on an online forum. Thirty fucking thousand. And you're calling someone else cringe? Holy dog shit bro, you're delusional. Look at a fucking mirror. Almost every post you've made on this board is one big individual circle jerk for yourself telling someone else they are wrong, or showcasing your belief system. This is your life, and it's fairly obvious. And it's fucking sad. And you know it's sad. It's so sad that you know it's sad, so you've gotten to the point where you accept it for being sad. You're okay with it, and that's sad. Sad.

    "Hopefully the mods can take care of it" Yeah, I hope so too. You've attacked many a people in this thread needlessly. This is a burner account so of course I don't care about a ban, hell I'll report this reply chain myself just to see you get an infraction.

    "I don't care that my WHM friend does 80% of the damage in 4 mans" Yeah you do. You sure do. Because if you didn't care you wouldn't be making a post about it lmao. Also, speaking as a healer main myself, WHM is supposed to do a lot of damage in 4 mans. Their toolkit is perfect for 4 man content with chain AOE pulls. Holy stuns, Benediction, and Lily Bell etc. I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention this.

    "The only post I've made is about people who AFK and don't try" Thanks for admitting you didn't understand a word of my argument. My argument is simply that you care about whether or not people waste your time or not, versus the idea that you should suck it up like the big bad hardcore MMO gamer you are, and just deal with the cards you're dealt like everyone else. Play the game to the best of your ability and stop worrying about what other people do with their time and energy. To use my comparison again, would you beat up an elderly lady for taking long at a grocery line? I'd like to think you wouldn't (but who knows, you just might be degenerate enough). Stop giving a fuck what other people do, and how they impact you. You impact you. And you alone. If you don't get that, you're not as hardcore as you make yourself out to be.

    "You're just like me" I'm nothing like you. Don't flatter yourself by thinking just because I choose to engage with you, and I make ugly statements about ugly people that I'm somehow an ugly person. Calling Hitler a piece of shit is just factually correct, and nobody would think ill of someone who did so. This is kind of like that. You're a piece of shit. I've said nothing factually incorrect here.

    "I'm not a hardcore shitting on casuals" Says the man-child crying about expert roulette on an MMO forum. Every post you've made on this forum is bitching moaning and complaining about one topic or another. Spare me dude.

    "Thinking you know someone based on a very short interaction" You have had 30,000 posts to change my opinion on you. Albeit I've glanced at maybe 3-4 pages worth of your mindless drivel, but still. People are generally who they show you the first time. To me, and to others here you've shown you're a combative person with NPD who needs to be right and won't stop replying to someone until they stop replying to them to "win" You'll find no such victory here.

    "You know jack shit about me" Is something only a person who knows that other person hit the nail on the head would say. Mad that I got it right, child?

    "Never wished violence upon anyone" Good for you. I grew up in foster care, and was abused as a child. To be frank it's a miracle I'm even a productive member of society. I've made great strides, and become someone who loves to learn and grow as a person rather than hate the world as I did when I was younger. Acknowledging ones faults and seeing their growth is a strength. Surely there are things in your life you used to believe that you are now embarrassed to do so? All this banter aside, there's probably very little difference between the type of growth you experienced and mine. After all, we're still alive in this crazy chaotic joke of a world we live in today, aren't we?

    "Someone finally answered the question" It's been answered at least 2 times prior. You just are too focused on arguing your points and pseudo-logic and it took you this long to realize it. But again, you ignored the rest of my post and are focusing on the very first thing I said, because the very first thing I said gives you the fuel you need to reply "see? I was right!" You be right, if it stops you from committing suicide. All your attention on this forum has done is show you're very close to the edge. There's a phone line for that.

    "Yes, I took psych 101, 102, 103, and 104. I won't say you're some giant manchild nor any other of the attacks you've levied on me, but it's pretty clear you're projecting quite a bit."

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA I FUCKING KNEW IT LOLOLOLOL

    "You found out my point was fairly reasonable" Thanks for acknowledging you neither read nor understood my post. You played yourself. Almost nothing you've said here today is reasonable. Well, except when you walked back your statement about caring about casual players performance. That was reasonable I suppose, even if it did expose you as one of the biggest jokes on this message board.

    CTHULU 2020! RIGGIN YOUR ELECTION SINCE 2008

    Fucking yikes bro. Stay far away from me before I catch whatever mental illness you have.

    I hope you get better.
    Last edited by jesushowinthewhat; 2022-05-22 at 02:22 AM.

  13. #51593
    I, uh.. don't mean to interject.

    But I find it funny that at no point was there any indication that anyone should suffer actual AFKers or deliberate, provable griefers in a dungeon or a trial group anyway.

  14. #51594
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I, uh.. don't mean to interject.

    But I find it funny that at no point was there any indication that anyone should suffer actual AFKers or deliberate, provable griefers in a dungeon or a trial group anyway.
    Yeah, I know that. You kick them. He would sooner belittle them as some sort of self-righteous molding tactic for personal gain. That's the issue of contention here.

  15. #51595
    how did we go from discussing player competency to talking about literally killing people in real life?

  16. #51596
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I'm on your side, and I do agree 5% is unacceptable in a dungeon, as that's pretty much afk.

    But I can understand the argument against saying that. Who gets to draw the line? 5% may be universally be seen as unacceptable. What about 25%? What about 33%? What about 50%? Surely some people will be of the attitude that 86% is too low.
    I'm not quite sure how it works, but I *did* use it in leveling dungeon roulette once because I was pretty sure the lancer in my group was a some kind of bot or constantly afk and didn't do anything but auto attacks:

    There is a vote kick function.

    I don't know when and how it will block the process (I think whenever you engage a boss or mob it won't allow it), but the line is whereever the group decides to vote-kick him. And it only needs 2 votes in 4man (as the vote-kicked player can't press no/yes), so it's really not that hard to votekick someone if people really care. And if they don't, well... then they don't.
    So if you run with a buddy, you can basically kick everyone you don't like - after 5 minutes. (technically at least)

    The fact that I never see a votekick coming up however means that most players just don't care.

    To bring this back to topic:

    Since you can tell this kind of abysmal play by just looking at the player model or the threat list, there is no need for DPS tools.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-22 at 07:26 AM.

  17. #51597
    Whats with the novel andys ? Touch some grass

  18. #51598
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no.
    That does not happen in the actual game on a regular basis and if rarely does happen:
    even SE would see that as a valid reason to remove a player from the group.
    The tools to deal with this scenario are already in the hands of the players.

    No this discussion is NOT about AFK players, this discussion is about people not meeting your arbitrarily set standard. At least be honest about that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I, uh.. don't mean to interject.
    These two definitely need to get a room to duke it out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I mean, you can tell when someone is doing 5% without any addon. All people should need to do is some semblance of a rotation, aoe on aoe pulls, st on st pulls.
    Aye. You can't tell if he's doing 75% or 100% w/o a parser but someone half-AFKing it via shieldlob-spam™ is fairly obvious. :'D

  19. #51599
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I can't disagree, but do a lot of games do this? It makes me think kind of those dps analysis sites who tell you "you missed x of y positionals, you didn't use z on CD," etc. Handy, tbh. Would be nice to be baked in but I don't see it in a lot of games baseline.
    It depends on the Genre. You can visually tell if you missed a platforming jump and by how much and you can correct for it on the next try. The feedback is instantanious and obvious. You can also generally see where you went wrong in Shmups, Rhythem games etc without the need to dig any deeper into it. Shooters and Sports games usually keep track of your overall personal stats as well as your performance in the current game. They're not always user friendly, but you can pick out patterns and see where you need to improve. Most fighters give you a Matrix that scores you on Attack, Defence etc at the end of a match.

    Gameplay hints on loading screens are common across all genres too. They're not always great, but they're something.

    FF14 is too complex to just "eyeball" what you did wrong. It doesn't track your stats or performance metrics in any way that I'm aware of. There's some opaque reasons for you being successful or failing that aren't being communicated to the player. The strange thing is they started off so well with building players an on ramp to group content with Guildhests and Hall of the Novice but they just never continued it.

  20. #51600
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    It depends on the Genre. You can visually tell if you missed a platforming jump and by how much and you can correct for it on the next try. The feedback is instantanious and obvious. You can also generally see where you went wrong in Shmups, Rhythem games etc without the need to dig any deeper into it. Shooters and Sports games usually keep track of your overall personal stats as well as your performance in the current game. They're not always user friendly, but you can pick out patterns and see where you need to improve. Most fighters give you a Matrix that scores you on Attack, Defence etc at the end of a match.

    Gameplay hints on loading screens are common across all genres too. They're not always great, but they're something.

    FF14 is too complex to just "eyeball" what you did wrong. It doesn't track your stats or performance metrics in any way that I'm aware of. There's some opaque reasons for you being successful or failing that aren't being communicated to the player. The strange thing is they started off so well with building players an on ramp to group content with Guildhests and Hall of the Novice but they just never continued it.
    Well, I'm not opposed to it, for what it's worth. Just don't see it much, especially in WoW. So long as it's not too intrusive, I don't see what would be bad about such a thing and I can see how it helps people at least find their feet.

    On a similar note, I wish there was a training mode for ex trials and savage fights where all the killing AoE and melee damage is disabled and what's left are the mechanics which if you resolve them well will let you pass to the next one until you can resolve every mechanic that fight has to throw at you, but that would probably never happen because they would consider it too trivializing and they might think it would kill group progging.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    That does not happen in the actual game on a regular basis and if rarely does happen:
    even SE would see that as a valid reason to remove a player from the group.
    The tools to deal with this scenario are already in the hands of the players.

    No this discussion is NOT about AFK players, this discussion is about people not meeting your arbitrarily set standard. At least be honest about that.
    This. It was never about AFKing players or players that are basically not doing anything or outright griefing. Frankly, nothing needs to change to deal with those because you are already free to kick and even report them according to XIV's ToS.

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