1. #51621
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Make them feel like FF mainline summons rather than FFXI pets.
    Yeah, this exactly is what I'm thinking.

  2. #51622
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Neither is telling people they're just imagining things because they want something to be true.




    100% true. And most of the people I know say the same, they ran into the occassional toxic player, but there's been a dramatic increase recently.

    There is no "proof" to provide, no site tracking toxic players. All hear-say. So when a lot of players are saying it, it could very well be delusions, but it could also be real. You cannot prove or disprove it either way.
    To be honest, the increase in toxic encounters should be a boon. It means the audience is expanding. Not everyone is going to intuitively adopt the general etiquette in game. Theyll get a warning or suspension, and tone it down, or move on. Have some faith in in game moderation. As we used to say, report and move on.

    And this is borne out by streamers to be honest, almost all of the wow streamers have said the same thing: theres something about the pace of the game or the lack of competition for rewards that gives them a bit more time to just reflect, stop, and try again without losing their shit. Just wait, players will adapt. Theres a carrot and a stick at play.

    Quick copy/paste...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It's not that the players aren't competitive by any means. They definitely are. It's just not as large and visible a community as WoW's at the moment.
    You both basically agree with one-another.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-08-25 at 11:14 AM.

  3. #51623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    100% social shitbags.

    Gameplay is something that starts out low and improves over time because players want to improve. Toxic asshats don't tend to change without a good incentive to do so.
    Well, they'll be forced to change their behavior or they will be kicked out.

  4. #51624


    Stumbled upon a video addressing exactly what I was talking about yesterday. Transcript from 12:56 to 14:34 -

    "But in group content, you are no longer the only person paying the penalty. You now have other people to think about and this means inefficiency on your part is going to cost time on theirs and the worst part of this is: everyone knows this. So if you join a random group and attempt content within a game such as a dungeon, raid, or boss, if you do not choose to play efficiently meaning using the right class, right build, and right rotation, you are actively choosing to place your experience of adventure over their potential lost time. You are willing to risk failure to keep up with your preferred playstyle and this is where the question comes in: if you have never done something within a game, say ran a dungeon, but a guide for it does exist are you responsible to know the dungeon before experiencing it? Are you, as a member of that team, obligated to gather the knowledge of the problems you're going to face to solve the puzzle ahead of time before you've ever actually experienced the puzzle? If you do not read the guide then you will still have a sense of adventure, but the risk of failure is higher. That failure is always time and in group content that failure is shared, meaning you are willing to place your own enjoyment and adventure over the time loss of a group. But if you do choose to read the guide, you destroy your own adventure and you remove the chance for a novel surprise and you are placing the needs of the team above your own enjoyment and while that may be seen as selfless, if that's not how you enjoy experiencing the game why are you playing that way?"

    He goes on to talk about group finders and ultimately says, "The only solution is to find friends or people in the game who play the way you do." If I could find 2-3 other people with the same mindset and play schedule (that'll never happen) I would be thrilled, though I suppose I'd need 6-7 for trials.

    Personally, group content has never been enjoyable for me, it's a necessity imposed upon me by developers that I have to do in order to get to the content I do enjoy, so I just want through it ASAP. I have always believed this to be a primary source of toxicity in MMOs: forcing players to do content they don't want to do and, worse, mixing them with people who do enjoy that content. Both types of players' experiences are ruined in the process. The only solutions I've seen for this are 1) something like the Trust system (which I love) or 2) making it so faceroll easy that failure is highly unlikely even with the worst of groups.

    Regarding other parts of the video, I do fall into that hyper efficient category, but it's because it prevents me from wasting time on things I don't like. It's an exchange of short term suck to prevent long term suck because having to consult guides for things, like leveling crafting, isn't fun but neither is putzing around wasting materials, money, and time either.

    When I 'waste' my time it's for things like talking to all the NPCs in Ishgard, hanging around aetherite plazas inspecting everyone's customization, listening to bard groups, peeping in on RP that I don't have the confidence to join (I've always had RP envy), watching cutscenes in the inn and choosing a different dialog option every time to see what difference it makes, spending an embarrassing amount of time in /gpose with my favorite NPCs and hoping no one notices :P, etc.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  5. #51625
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Gimme timestamp. Love that guy's takes on games.
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1123782672?t=11h6m41s (Context at the start there was someone telling him not to tipetoe around the XIV community)

    The end of several of his streams seem to turn into a discussion about the defensiveness of the XIV community, just because of the zealots popping up in his chat.

    On a related note, I feel like I just need to avoid some of the crazier discussions on the game. I don't know how to explain it, but it just starts to exhaust my desire to play the game in general.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    "But in group content, you are no longer the only person paying the penalty. You now have other people to think about and this means inefficiency on your part is going to cost time on theirs and the worst part of this is: everyone knows this. So if you join a random group and attempt content within a game such as a dungeon, raid, or boss, if you do not choose to play efficiently meaning using the right class, right build, and right rotation, you are actively choosing to place your experience of adventure over their potential lost time. You are willing to risk failure to keep up with your preferred playstyle and this is where the question comes in: if you have never done something within a game, say ran a dungeon, but a guide for it does exist are you responsible to know the dungeon before experiencing it? Are you, as a member of that team, obligated to gather the knowledge of the problems you're going to face to solve the puzzle ahead of time before you've ever actually experienced the puzzle? If you do not read the guide then you will still have a sense of adventure, but the risk of failure is higher. That failure is always time and in group content that failure is shared, meaning you are willing to place your own enjoyment and adventure over the time loss of a group. But if you do choose to read the guide, you destroy your own adventure and you remove the chance for a novel surprise and you are placing the needs of the team above your own enjoyment and while that may be seen as selfless, if that's not how you enjoy experiencing the game why are you playing that way?"
    I feel like people are treating this as too binary an issue, to be honest. Which is usually what happens in these discussions, everything is argued from both extremes.

    You're not destroying the world if you want to go into a 4-man dungeon (especially an MSQ one) without looking up everything in a guide first. People probably wouldn't even notice. Same goes for most matchmade content in XIV. It's likely that absolutely no one cares what you did beforehand, and there's no deep philosophical discussion that needs to happen regarding the value peoples time versus your enjoyment or something.

    Now if you're joining a group for savage progression or min ilvl extremes or something, everyone just needs to be honest about their expectations going in. If the group says everyone needs to know the fight, then go in knowing the fight. If they say its a learning party, then go in to learn. It's not hard to just communicate these things.

    Disparity in goals and expectations are the source of most friction in MMOs. As long as people are honest and communicative about these things, most situations turn out fine.

  6. #51626
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The end of several of his streams seem to turn into a discussion about the defensiveness of the XIV community, just because of the zealots popping up in his chat.
    I've noticed this with ARR, negative discussions about it aren't tolerated well despite most admitting it's a "slog" at best. What I don't understand is whenever someone posts that they've quit or are on the verge of it because they're not liking ARR and people still say they need to experience it or, worse, that the game isn't for them if they don't like it when the main complaints are the two things that improve drastically after ARR (story & combat). Buy an ARR story skip, seriously, maybe 5% of the entire ARR MSQ is in any way relevant to HW or future expansions that won't end up being recapped. This idea that anyone is missing out on crucial information in ARR I believe is factually incorrect based on my experience of everything except Stormblood. The only exception would be the Crystal Tower series that they can use NG+ to do. The cutscenes at the end of ARR basically tell you all you need to know going into HW that can be watched at an inn.

    I have heard that lore gets dicey, especially if you try to discuss that Hydaelyn isn't the benevolent entity she seems or that the Ascians aren't wholly evil. I haven't had much opportunity to get into lore discussions though, I suppose because it was had when ShB was new and not so much now in the 'down time' before the next expansion.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  7. #51627
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Nope, I've experienced it as well. There have always been bad actors in FF, true. But they were rare and extremely few and far between. The last few months there's been more than a noticeable increase in toxic mentality of the WoW community seeping into FF.

    It makes me glad that SE has zero tolerance for harassing behavior. I just hope they can keep up with the influx.
    I really do wonder where people get this from, I've run into far more asshats in FF14 than I have in WoW.

    Is part of that me? Perhaps, I tend to be quite assertive and direct with people and that can come off as being rude or overly controlling. I'll say right from the outset I'm going to use my cooldowns for X, Interrupt Y or deal with mechanic Z. If there's someone in the group that's failing a mechanic or causing a wipe, I'll let them know how to correct the problem. If they're unwilling or unable to do what's asked of them to complete the content, then I'll be the one to kick them.

    That has been met with outright hostility at times in FF14. Not only the "you don't pay my sub!" crowd, there's a section of the player base who are very reactionary about anything they consider to be "hardcore" and will go out of their way to make their grievances about how it's "ruining the game" known. Everything I do when I play in a group seems to anger these people.

    I'm open about the issues and problems I have with the game and that has made me the target of some abuse. I'll be the first to hold my hand up and say I don't care about the story and wish Squenix would stop making it mandatory, I'll point out QoL improvements for Jobs, Bozja and put forwards opinions on what I think would make the game better. There's a section of the community who consider this the highest form of treason and would be looking to hang, draw and quarter me if they could.

    The zero tolerance policy is something else that I've got a lot of issues with too. As I mentioned above, I'll offer guidance and advice to players who are struggling, not in a rude or sarcastic way just a "When Mechanic A is happening, do B". And some players do respond to that positively. Most stay silent and do what's been asked of them. Some lash out as though it was a personal attack.

    I've spent a lot of time in GM Jail for this kind of behaviour, though never had a strike surprisingly. It seems grossly unfair that I'm taking a huge risk by discussing boss mechanics, while the people who are intentionally making the experience worse for other players are insulated from any kind of punishment.

    Unfortunately, it only extends to what happens in game. I've had agrieved FF14 players message me through Discord, Reddit and even Email - And not just me, they've harassed the people I'm associated with on those platforms and even in one case sent abusive messages to my family. That is not okay by any stretch. I don't have any recourse for that or way to report it to Squenix, they're not in any way responsable for those other platforms.

    From my point of view that culture of silence has created a far more toxic environment than anything you'll find in WoW. Any criticsms are to be quashed, not considered regardless of what they are. You keep your head down and conform or you'll find yourself ostracised from the bulk of the community. It extends well outside of the game too. Places like Reddit and most fan forums are also quick to clamp down on any criticism of the game. My Reddit posts are shadowbanned by default on the main subreddit.

    I'm not going to stand up and say that the WoW community are angels and can do no wrong, but they do bring with them a culture that's open to criticism and improvements - That's something FF14 desperately needs. The greatest tragedy of this entire situation would be if they were suffocated by the community and driven out by overly defencive zealots before they've got a chance to impact on the games culture.

  8. #51628
    Quote Originally Posted by RampageBW1 View Post


    Don't do it!
    I've had the same appearance for so long that if I changed it now I'd be confused about who the new guy is in the cutscenes.

    Still have the original two Fantasia you get for free.

  9. #51629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The end of several of his streams seem to turn into a discussion about the defensiveness of the XIV community, just because of the zealots popping up in his chat.
    Amusingly, at this point I've probably seen more posts just by you about "cultists" and "zealots", than actual cultists and zealots.

    I'm sure there's a fair amount of people who act like this but man, you really feel the need to hammer that topic with every post

    Anyway realistically it's two things causing the current "defense" around the game, first one is yeah there are definitely people who are overly defensive about the game (as with any fanbase). Second though, I feel especially lately there's been this focused effort to try and "attack" FF14.

    Presumably it just comes with the territory of high-profile streamers jumping from WoW to FF14 (in a lot of cases probably temporarily, at that), but even as someone who (even if i do say so myself) tends to just stay away from these kinds of arguments, occasionally I get just annoyed enough by the constant dogpiling that I make an off-hand comment or two.
    Last edited by Cattleya; 2021-08-25 at 01:38 PM.

  10. #51630
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I've had the same appearance for so long that if I changed it now I'd be confused about who the new guy is in the cutscenes.

    Still have the original two Fantasia you get for free.
    2? When does the game give you a 2nd free Fantasia? 1 is from the ARR MSQ, the other is?

    EDIT: Ah Heavensward CE.

  11. #51631
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Unfortunately, it only extends to what happens in game. I've had agrieved FF14 players message me through Discord, Reddit and even Email - And not just me, they've harassed the people I'm associated with on those platforms and even in one case sent abusive messages to my family.
    How are they getting your info? Is there something in game I need to be aware of to disable?
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  12. #51632
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    From my point of view that culture of silence has created a far more toxic environment than anything you'll find in WoW. Any criticsms are to be quashed, not considered regardless of what they are. You keep your head down and conform or you'll find yourself ostracised from the bulk of the community. It extends well outside of the game too. Places like Reddit and most fan forums are also quick to clamp down on any criticism of the game. My Reddit posts are shadowbanned by default on the main subreddit.
    A new player whispered me one time after being dogpiled on in the novice network, and they used a term that described things perfectly. Although now I can't remember it.

    "Aggressively Righteous" or something to that effect. Like a very vocal part of the community wants to put forth this image of being so good and pure and kind...and they'll beat you over the head with it if you step out of line at all.

    What's weird is that this extreme rigidity in attitudes isn't always consistent. Like there are certain things which are accepted as ok to attack people over. The same people who say meters or discussing mechanics are toxic will lose their minds at a new player who asks if they really need to DPS as a healer. I saw an entire channel of mentors absolutely tear apart a sprout who said he was a level 41 Thaumaturge and asked if it was important to equip this "Soul" thing that had no stats. To the point that I almost kicked some of them for calling them an "idiot" and a "troll", and the sprout said it made them feel like just leaving.

    It's very strange sometimes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RampageBW1 View Post
    2? When does the game give you a 2nd free Fantasia? 1 is from the ARR MSQ, the other is?

    EDIT: Ah Heavensward CE.
    What's funny is that I've asked the same question. Because I don't have the Heavensward CE, but I have two Fantasia.

    I mean, it came from SOMEWHERE, right? I just don't remember, and there's no evidence that it should have come from anything in-game.

    Edit: Supposedly the Veteran Rewards system used to give a Fantasia at one point, according to some Reddit posts. Hm.

  13. #51633
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    What's funny is that I've asked the same question. Because I don't have the Heavensward CE, but I have two Fantasia.

    I mean, it came from SOMEWHERE, right? I just don't remember, and there's no evidence that it should have come from anything in-game.

    Edit: Supposedly the Veteran Rewards system used to give a Fantasia at one point, according to some Reddit posts. Hm.

    That might explain it too.

    On a side note: Eternal Wind is now my favorite song from the entire Final Fantasy franchise. I haven't even played FFIII, but this song is beautiful.

  14. #51634
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The same people who say meters or discussing mechanics are toxic will lose their minds at a new player who asks if they really need to DPS as a healer.
    I still don't understand how this is supposed to work. Letting tanks get to 50% before healing, fine, but I see healers wait until tanks are at 20% and I would be freaking out if I were tanking. I had one conjurer so enthralled with spamming Stone that our tank died - in Sastasha, I didn't even think that was possible.

    I've been talking with my SO about pairing as a tank and healer so we know we can communicate and rely on each other, but I wonder if that will lead to us learning the jobs 'wrong'.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  15. #51635
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Currently the only FFX character you can do a good job approximating in FFXIV is Jecht (Highlander with Bozja hair) and Yuna (Midlander female with cash shop outfit). For Tidus, none of the ingame male faces look anything like his. Same with Auron, but he wears sunglasses all the time so you can theoretically get away with having a face that looks just good enough (either go with Highlander for broad shoulders, or Elezen for the old man face). However, right now there is nothing in the game that looks like Auron's outfit. The upcoming level 90 Samurai gear in Endwalker somewhat like Auron's getup. Hopefully the lower black skirt is a leg item you can swap out for loose pants, and is not counted as part of the chestpiece. This being a Samurai exclusive glamour, you obviously won't be able to lug a huge Dark Knight sword around.





    There is a better set, granted it's not a 1 for 1, you don't get the face hiding collar, but the rest of it seems closer to me. The Samurai 80 Artifact gear, alternatively you could do Memoria Misera and get the dyeable version of the set.

    At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of these forums, turns me into an argumentative ass.

    To most of you, I apologize in advance. I will attempt to be nicer.

  16. #51636
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I still don't understand how this is supposed to work. Letting tanks get to 50% before healing, fine, but I see healers wait until tanks are at 20% and I would be freaking out if I were tanking. I had one conjurer so enthralled with spamming Stone that our tank died - in Sastasha, I didn't even think that was possible.

    I've been talking with my SO about pairing as a tank and healer so we know we can communicate and rely on each other, but I wonder if that will lead to us learning the jobs 'wrong'.
    Yeah, there's a lot of pressure from the community at large on this topic. The "Green DPS" thing isn't just a meme, it really is how the role is viewed. There have been arguments about it for years, spanning every type of content.

    Of course, the current design of healers and healing doesn't help. What else are you to do as a healer when incoming damage just isn't dangerous, and you have instant cast oGCD abilities that will top anyone off?

    Personally, I love going berserk as a healer and doing as much damage as I can to see if I can compete with the DPS while pushing the envelope on keeping the tank alive. But not everyone is into that, and they're not ruining anyone's day by being more careful about keeping people alive.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2021-08-25 at 02:38 PM.

  17. #51637
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I really do wonder where people get this from, I've run into far more asshats in FF14 than I have in WoW.

    Is part of that me? Perhaps, I tend to be quite assertive and direct with people and that can come off as being rude or overly controlling. I'll say right from the outset I'm going to use my cooldowns for X, Interrupt Y or deal with mechanic Z. If there's someone in the group that's failing a mechanic or causing a wipe, I'll let them know how to correct the problem. If they're unwilling or unable to do what's asked of them to complete the content, then I'll be the one to kick them.

    That has been met with outright hostility at times in FF14. Not only the "you don't pay my sub!" crowd, there's a section of the player base who are very reactionary about anything they consider to be "hardcore" and will go out of their way to make their grievances about how it's "ruining the game" known. Everything I do when I play in a group seems to anger these people.

    I'm open about the issues and problems I have with the game and that has made me the target of some abuse. I'll be the first to hold my hand up and say I don't care about the story and wish Squenix would stop making it mandatory, I'll point out QoL improvements for Jobs, Bozja and put forwards opinions on what I think would make the game better. There's a section of the community who consider this the highest form of treason and would be looking to hang, draw and quarter me if they could.

    The zero tolerance policy is something else that I've got a lot of issues with too. As I mentioned above, I'll offer guidance and advice to players who are struggling, not in a rude or sarcastic way just a "When Mechanic A is happening, do B". And some players do respond to that positively. Most stay silent and do what's been asked of them. Some lash out as though it was a personal attack.

    I've spent a lot of time in GM Jail for this kind of behaviour, though never had a strike surprisingly. It seems grossly unfair that I'm taking a huge risk by discussing boss mechanics, while the people who are intentionally making the experience worse for other players are insulated from any kind of punishment.
    Based on the way you speak, and your own self admittance, I can almost guarantee that the reason you're having so many issues is because of your word choice when discussing these things.

    I'm also one of the first people to speak up about mechanics when things are going south, and I'll initiate a kick if people are simply refusing to follow mechanics, etc...

    I have never once been in GM jail, gotten an infraction or had any issues in-game aside from the SUPER sensitive "you don't pay my sub!" bullshitters which IMO can be summarily ignored and dismissed, and when encountered can safely be vote kicked for harassment.

    Unfortunately, it only extends to what happens in game. I've had agrieved FF14 players message me through Discord, Reddit and even Email - And not just me, they've harassed the people I'm associated with on those platforms and even in one case sent abusive messages to my family. That is not okay by any stretch. I don't have any recourse for that or way to report it to Squenix, they're not in any way responsable for those other platforms.
    As @Lane already asked, how the hell are these people getting the information they need to do this?

    From my point of view that culture of silence has created a far more toxic environment than anything you'll find in WoW. Any criticsms are to be quashed, not considered regardless of what they are. You keep your head down and conform or you'll find yourself ostracised from the bulk of the community. It extends well outside of the game too. Places like Reddit and most fan forums are also quick to clamp down on any criticism of the game. My Reddit posts are shadowbanned by default on the main subreddit.
    I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't see this as a particular problem of the game honestly. When I'm playing the game I'm absolutely overjoyed that chat isn't overflowing with negativity, politics, arguing and other stuff like WoW chat is. That kind of thing completely detracts from my enjoyment of my play session. I'm playing the game to get away from that shit. The fact that game chat is almost entirely about the game and chat is typically filled with innocuous , fun, silly, or helpful stuff is a GOOD thing IMO.

    I agree that the fact that this cultivates a kind of shadow culture where any negativity is simmering below the surface and players release that in bad ways and have these unreasonable expectations that there is absolutely ZERO negativity anywhere within the game, which is stupid.

    Granted, navigating sensitive situations within FFXIV because of this takes a certain social finesse, political correctness and amount of patience many players can't, won't or dislike doing. But it CAN be done.

    I agree that having to tiptoe around performance issues that hinder a group is REALLY frustrating, but the number of times that I encounter situations that are SO bad that I feel the desire to speak up about it are very few and far between. It puts the focus entirely on the gameplay, which I like.

    I don't use ACT for this reason. Not because I don't care about performance, but because I don't want to have the good vs bad situations be so glaringly obvious to me and also change the game play experience for me from one where I'm just enjoying playing the game and focusing on the experience to one where I focus on performance to the point where I don't enjoy myself anymore. That and I don't do the high end content where that kind of performance matters. I absolutely believe ACT and performance metrics have a place in that part of the game.

    In WoW, I've switched and stopped playing classes I enjoy because they weren't putting up numbers that I liked which made me not enjoy doing dungeons with them. This focus on performance rather than enjoyment for playing the class changed the way I experience the game and has made it significantly less enjoyable than it used to be.

    I'm not going to stand up and say that the WoW community are angels and can do no wrong, but they do bring with them a culture that's open to criticism and improvements - That's something FF14 desperately needs. The greatest tragedy of this entire situation would be if they were suffocated by the community and driven out by overly defencive zealots before they've got a chance to impact on the games culture.
    I agree here. But, I don't think this is a GAME problem, though. I would agree that the zero tolerance policy supports it, to a degree, but this mentality/ issue isn't something FFXIV created.

  18. #51638
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    A new player whispered me one time after being dogpiled on in the novice network, and they used a term that described things perfectly. Although now I can't remember it.

    "Aggressively Righteous" or something to that effect. Like a very vocal part of the community wants to put forth this image of being so good and pure and kind...and they'll beat you over the head with it if you step out of line at all.

    What's weird is that this extreme rigidity in attitudes isn't always consistent. Like there are certain things which are accepted as ok to attack people over. The same people who say meters or discussing mechanics are toxic will lose their minds at a new player who asks if they really need to DPS as a healer. I saw an entire channel of mentors absolutely tear apart a sprout who said he was a level 41 Thaumaturge and asked if it was important to equip this "Soul" thing that had no stats. To the point that I almost kicked some of them for calling them an "idiot" and a "troll", and the sprout said it made them feel like just leaving.

    It's very strange sometimes.
    I haven't seen any such things yet, though I don't follow the sprout channel as often anymore (moved it to another window), as it's too much spam. Maybe it also depends on the server / data center or location? Even the "soul" question came up once, and one mentor just explained it.

    That being said, as in every online game, it seems a hit or miss with people. In general, almost all people are nice, but there can be a very loud, very annoying minority which gives it a bad reputation, and can many times put off the normal people from interacting too much with others. Seems to be the case here, only that here the toxic group pretends to be the good / righteous one. The VAST majority of my experiences with other people in WoW was also positive. Same in FF14 - even more so there, but since I played the former for around 10 years actively and a few more on and off, of course I'll have more negative experiences than in the latter, which I only play casually since a month.

    I guess my biggest gripe with FF14 (community-wise) is, as written before in this thread, that the majority of more experienced FF14 players seem to expect sprouts to know most mechanics of instances, even when they're in the first time. However, outside of one or two sarcastic comments after a wipe (which weren't bad), I've never seen anyone really complaining when sprouts then fail. I've never seen anyone leaving a group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, there's a lot of pressure from the community at large on this topic. The "Green DPS" thing isn't just a meme, it really is how the role is viewed. There have been arguments about it for years, spanning every type of content.

    Of course, the current design of healers and healing doesn't help. What else are you to do as a healer when incoming damage just isn't dangerous, and you have instant cast oGCD abilities that will top anyone off?

    Personally, I love going berserk as a healer and doing as much damage as I can to see if I can compete with the DPS while pushing the envelope on keeping the tank alive. But not everyone is into that, and they're not ruining anyone's day by being more careful about keeping people alive.
    That's also one thing I really like. Even in WoW, I played monk and did some healing now and then. I always enjoyed trying to contribute more to the group than just making people survive. Scholar AoE dps is actually REALLY good soon after you get the aoe spell, though I guess it will flatten out a bit at the higher levels, as the DD classes get more options and better spells.
    Last edited by Frostfred; 2021-08-25 at 03:26 PM.

  19. #51639
    Quote Originally Posted by Frostfred View Post
    I haven't seen any such things yet, though I don't follow the sprout channel as often anymore (moved it to another window), as it's too much spam. Maybe it also depends on the server / data center or location? Even the "soul" question came up once, and one mentor just explained it.

    That being said, as in every online game, it seems a hit or miss with people. In general, almost all people are nice, but there can be a very loud, very annoying minority which gives it a bad reputation, and can many times put off the normal people from interacting too much with others. Seems to be the case here, only that here the toxic group pretends to be the good / righteous one. The VAST majority of my experiences with other people in WoW was also positive. Same in FF14 - even more so there, but since I played the former for around 10 years actively and a few more on and off, of course I'll have more negative experiences than in the latter, which I only play casually since a month.

    I guess my biggest gripe with FF14 (community-wise) is, as written before in this thread, that the majority of more experienced FF14 players seem to expect sprouts to know most mechanics of instances, even when they're in the first time. However, outside of one or two sarcastic comments after a wipe (which weren't bad), I've never seen anyone really complaining when sprouts then fail. I've never seen anyone leaving a group.
    Oh I would definitely agree that most interactions range from neutral to positive in both games. It's the nature of the negative reactions that seems so different between the two games sometimes.

  20. #51640
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    You're not destroying the world if you want to go into a 4-man dungeon (especially an MSQ one) without looking up everything in a guide first. People probably wouldn't even notice. Same goes for most matchmade content in XIV.

    Now if you're joining a group for savage progression or min ilvl extremes or something, everyone just needs to be honest about their expectations going in. If the group says everyone needs to know the fight, then go in knowing the fight. If they say its a learning party, then go in to learn. It's not hard to just communicate these things.
    Completely agreed.
    Outside of savage raiding, I haven't read any guides in years.
    95% of the mechanics are pretty straight forward anyway, just observe what other people are doing and how they cope.

    In new 4 mans, you can even learn the mechanics with your Trust-buddies.

    Imho understanding the fights w/o a guide is half the fun of the game.

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