[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[StrawberryZebra]

Let's put it this way; the difference given by 120 direct hit (12dh *2 slots * 5 gear) (which is generally what you will be doing for DPS already capping crit/det) is something like 0.3% damage - if you start from zero DH, which no DPS does. The reality is even lower. The difference in cost is easily 10s of millions of Gil, and it lasts, at best, a few weeks at cutting edge. This is more than succeed at any cost.

Don't forget that stats scale non-linearly. I don't want to get too heavy into the maths but the short answer is that the more stats you have, the more valuable it makes your other stats too. Mix all that together with some stacked raid buffs, Food, Pots etc and you're looking at an outcome that's much greater than the sum of it's parts.

If it's as extreme as you're claiming I can't say. I don't bother logging things in FF14 so I can't compare the before and afters. My point is that a little bit of extra stats can go a lot further than you expect in a raid environment - Its why top performers in all MMO's are constantly squeezing every last little drop out of their characters to give them the maximum stats possible.

[Shakzor]

can you do it from level 1?

You can start lvl 20 for crafters and 10 for gathering and since it mainly uses materials from gathering in the diadem (the gatherer instance in ishgard), it makes sense to start with those

[Tojara]

Don't forget that stats scale non-linearly. I don't want to get too heavy into the maths but the short answer is that the more stats you have, the more valuable it makes your other stats too. Mix all that together with some stacked raid buffs, Food, Pots etc and you're looking at an outcome that's much greater than the sum of it's parts.

If it's as extreme as you're claiming I can't say. I don't bother logging things in FF14 so I can't compare the before and afters. My point is that a little bit of extra stats can go a lot further than you expect in a raid environment - Its why top performers in all MMO's are constantly squeezing every last little drop out of their characters to give them the maximum stats possible.

I also main a tank, so I'm not really looking at DPS but tank compared to tank. Some of it probably has to do with the fact that tank gear sometimes has pretty suboptimal stats, where the crafted gear I presume can be whatever you want. Combine optimal stats with a lot more materia and the discrepancy is a lot bigger, but maybe it's just for tanks. Tenacity for example isn't a great damage stat at all, and generally you try to avoid it. If you however are just using whatever you can get your hands on prior to the crafted gear coming out (especially for tanks), you can't really avoid having tenacity on some of your slots.

I just looked at damage between myself and other tanks, using unbuffed metrics and some of the DRKs I looked at have essentially the same breakdowns, but are doing close to 400 more damage. It amounted to something well over 300 critical, direct hit and some determination. I actually had more skill speed, virtue of it just being on the gear I had available to me.

My original blanket statement of 10-15% was more of a discussion point and throwing numbers into the wind. In reality I was only really looking at tanks and just guessed it might be the same, and/or more extreme for DPS/Healers when comparing damage. Looking through previous replies, I think some people are massively undershooting how much it does contribute, especially when a lot of the people doing savage content for the first week are using pure crafted gear with some level of over melding. When that happens, it does tend to push people down when comparing damage (especially if everyone's doing it).

More of a discussion point then anything else. I think crafting should always have a place in MMOs, it just weird to me to have it be so good, and essentially obsoleting extreme trial and normal mode raid gear that took place weeks prior. Obviously it's only for the first few weeks of a new tier, but being able to flat out buy relevant gear on the market board is just pretty foreign to me.

[Delekii]

Don't forget that stats scale non-linearly. I don't want to get too heavy into the maths but the short answer is that the more stats you have, the more valuable it makes your other stats too. Mix all that together with some stacked raid buffs, Food, Pots etc and you're looking at an outcome that's much greater than the sum of it's parts.

If it's as extreme as you're claiming I can't say. I don't bother logging things in FF14 so I can't compare the before and afters. My point is that a little bit of extra stats can go a lot further than you expect in a raid environment - Its why top performers in all MMO's are constantly squeezing every last little drop out of their characters to give them the maximum stats possible.

Stats scale linearly with themselves, how they scale with each other is irrelevant to their absolute value. The only exceptions are crit and speed related stats.

Whatever number you start with, if you were doing X damage with zero Dh and you get 5% Dh, that Dh have you 1.25% damage. There is nothing that makes this relative gain larger, any source of Dh makes it diminish relative to beginning at zero.

Saying "every little bit counts" is a constant misnomer. There is absolutely a value at which everyone would stop paying or working for it. Nobody would pay 200000000 Gil for 1 dps on a base on 8000. It's a matter of where the opportunity and cost meet in the middle.

My point is that most people in ffxiv VASTLY overvalue the relative and absolute gain they get from pentamelding, either in totality or even more so compared with single overmelding. For example, the guy I quoted claimed it to be worth 10% of his dps, when it would be very, very lucky to be worth 1/20th of that.

Ergo: my statement that pentamelding is religion. People convince themselves it is worth it because people have convinced them they are getting something out of it that they aren't. The analogy holds when discussing it too, people get angry and claim "you just don't know what it takes to raid at the highest level" which is both wrong and irrelevant to facts.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Indeed. Since this problem exists since YEARS, it got NOTHING to do with any chip shortage. But wear your 'badge of honor' with all the false pride it deserves.

And please, just don't quote me anymore, it's not like you could repeat anything of worth anyway. You got no clue of this game and its history. Obviously.

Lol a burner account telling me I have nothing of worth to add. What a joke. I played 1.0 some, quit, then rejoined in ARR.

It's clearly you who have no idea what's going on. It's hilarious that people think that short server issue in HW launch and "Raubahn savage" (That was fixed <24 hours after it became an issue) is "Years of server issues". Lmfao give me a break. Outside of a few days after launch, servers have never been a major issue. I've been able to consistently play basically whenever I want.

The "major" issue with the servers is the giant new load of players coming on board and the chip shortage. And even with that, issues mostly calmed down within 2 weeks. Y'all are being super toxic and revisionist screaming about years of server issues.

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Yoshi P addresses toxic feedback.

"...Really, it's just one thing here. Of course I'm thankful and grateful for players to tell us that "we should do this, or this should be that" and whatnot, but verbal abuses are...(something we wish it can stop). Well, I would like to think myself as having a strong mental level in Japan, but not everyone shares the same mental strength as I do so...

Ever since the unfortunate release delay of the expansion and we did ask players to be mindful of spoilers, but for some reason there seems to be some antis (haters of the game) laying around attacking other players despite not playing the game and it was quite glaring, and I felt as if those strong words used in arguments against people ended up holding people back because of this. There is a frequently used example (or metaphor) here - It's like seeing the condition of a car in New York Downtown gets worse when it's already in bad enough condition. In other words, it's somehow an acceptable mindset to let it happen.

Which is why...well, I mean there are new players who join this game and there are many players who come from other games and of course, this also means they are players who experience Endwalker as their first expansion, so it's a given that there will be mistakes and errors here and there, but after 11 years of journey with players up to this point it does make me feel that the language used ended up a little overboard there. I mean, I can take it, even though it doesn't make it less bad, but staff members will feel really down after getting those words when they gave their absolute best into trying to create something where everyone can enjoy, and this may end up making them no longer create things that are fun from there on. So I have only one request to every players out there - please imagine that you're speaking face to face with a developer whom you may not know his name nor face and imagine how they'd feel before sending your feedback over, and I'll be happy if people can do so politely.

That's why, it will result in staff members getting gradually hurt and it's especially evident when the staff member worked so hard on it, and this doesn't help anyone, neither the staff members nor the players either. This will completely drain away their motivation and worse, they'll end up quitting because of it, which is why I hope that everyone can understand that. Considering things have been getting really extreme lately, and with staff members putting their all to make it work...I mean, of course I don't mean everything should be given praise. Mistakes are mistakes of course and they should be notified, but I’ll appreciate it if everyone can give careful thought in their thoughts and feedback before sending them over."

TL;DR, Yoshi P can easily take toxic feedback and throw it in the trash where it should be. Other developers take the toxic feedback to heart, and get demoralized, and some even quit over it. "This skill sucks, why would you design it this way? Whatever dev made this is fucking retarded." This isn't something terribly uncommon to hear from Xenosys and others like him. When called out on their shitty behavior, they go "It was just a joke" or "it's just my stream persona" but really, we all know those are just excuses for them to show their real, shitty personalities.

[Granyala]

My point is that most people in ffxiv VASTLY overvalue the relative and absolute gain they get from pentamelding, either in totality or even more so compared with single overmelding.

Pentamelding can matter in crafting, especially if you bulk craft and if it enables you to switch to a more efficient macro.
For combat gear, I agree with you. Secondary stats are way too weak and encounters tuned too lax in FF-XIV for it to ever truly matter.

Not sure whether it is still true today but a few years ago, all slots filled with materia vs no materia made around 1% difference in actual player power. You'd be hard pressed to notice that in an actual real life boss encounter, especially when you factor in that you usually do not run around with empty materia slots.

Top performers/world firsters usually squeeze out everything because contrary to most of the try-hard community, they actually go in UNDERGEARED. So yes, in that case 1% can actually matter. If you are already wearing i580+ for an encounter that is designed for i375, then you no longer need any help. In FF-XIV raiding at the highest level is doing mechanics right, first and foremost. If nobody dies and few mistakes are made, the rest falls into place rather easily.

- - - Updated - - -

"This skill sucks, why would you design it this way? Whatever dev made this is fucking retarded."

While not being nice, sometimes one does wonder as a player, what the DEVs have been smoking when making some of the decisions.

[Devilyaki]

Anyone else really like the raid system where you can keep going till you get something per boss. It’s so nice

[Delekii]

Pentamelding can matter in crafting, especially if you bulk craft and if it enables you to switch to a more efficient macro.
For combat gear, I agree with you. Secondary stats are way too weak and encounters tuned too lax in FF-XIV for it to ever truly matter.

Definitely, crafting is a different animal. There are some things that are actually impossible without specific stat allocations that become possible with melding. These days they are few and far between, but they certainly existed in the past and they rarely do now.

Not sure whether it is still true today but a few years ago, all slots filled with materia vs no materia made around 1% difference in actual player power. You'd be hard pressed to notice that in an actual real life boss encounter, especially when you factor in that you usually do not run around with empty materia slots.

Top performers/world firsters usually squeeze out everything because contrary to most of the try-hard community, they actually go in UNDERGEARED. So yes, in that case 1% can actually matter. If you are already wearing i580+ for an encounter that is designed for i375, then you no longer need any help. In FF-XIV raiding at the highest level is doing mechanics right, first and foremost. If nobody dies and few mistakes are made, the rest falls into place rather easily.

Top performers/world firsts in FFXIV are never undergeared when they go in, the game just doesn't work that way. You're right that they might rarely get a kill when they otherwise mightn't have or that the rare encounter that is actually overtuned to a degree that it matters, but you're also right that it's the top of the top that even need to think about doing this.

I think in a we are actually agreeing with each other right? That the most important thing by far is execution, after having the expected floor of equipment.

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When I write a reply and that comment is just gone without any message, well, what should I think about that?

Was even warned by someone of the mods right before that. But whatever.

And regarding the endwalker release:

The game always had problems before at start of expansions and again they did nothing to prepare for this, just some short work around. It's absolutely no surprise when you start a big marketing campaign to lure in new players, that this will make it even worse.

There will never, ever be a multiplayer game in existence that will adequately prepare for expansion release and have appropriate performance on release day. The reason is that the cost of reputation damage is less than the cost of temporarily propping up the server count. If you think they are going to say this to you, or that it somehow isn't true, you're being illogical. They aren't going to stop marketing or stop releasing content because they will have server issues; a game being too popular is simply not a problem (besides for the people who can't play it).

And that's just one of the problems.

Yoshi P always found excuses for not improving the game, because the engine is bad and the servers can't take it. They sell bank NPC (which also bring in quite a lot of gil income by the way) for 2$ per month up to seven. So you can give them 14$ per month extra for quite a lot of banking space and suddenly, oh wonder, the servers can take it. Just not when you don't give them money. Hu. Interesting, isn't it?

Companies like to make money.

Even worse: housing. At start it was fine, because many could not get enough gil to get a plot, but it became so easy to get gil that getting the money to buy the plot and house became very, very easy.

To bad, that there simply aren't enough plots and they also do not much against people who make real money with it. The reason this works? Well ~5k plots vs 15k active players (only 10% manions and ~20% med houses, rest are small plots) per server... well...

Nobody owes you a house plot. They have decided, for whatever reason, that they want artificial scarcity in the system. If they didn't they could just add extra wards. It's fine for you to disagree with this, and even act on that disagreement by saying what you say, but that doesn't make it an actual problem.

I don't have a house, I wish I had a house, I wish their system was different... but it isn't. It's also not intrinsically a problem for the game because I don't like it. I hate that the system required botting up to this point, but the lottery system will fix that aspect.

And that was BEFORE the marketing campaign. It's now more likely 20k, 25k or more.

Again; Companies like money, so they are going to market to sell as much as they can. If they sell so much that they can no longer afford to sell more, that's a problem that they want to have before any other problem. If you think they will behave differently you fail to understand that it is still a business.

Japan got 32 servers, USA 24, EU 12. This led to up to around 15k players on EU and US servers while only 10k players on Japanese servers. simply because they got more (while less players than USA). BEFORE 2021. It was an absolute obvious problem since at least SB, that's 2017(!) and was long rising before that. That's a fine 100% worse housing situation on US and EU servers since YEARS.

Square Enix is a Japanese company that likes to focus on Japan first. Again, artificial scarcity with housing isn't intrinsically an issue, it's a decision that you see as an issue.

A game that got this CLEAR PROBLEM OF PURE NUMBERS. 15k vs 5k. Is doing NOTHING to solve this PLUS abusing this problem to push peope with houses to keep paying them money. And of course selling bank space for quite a lot of money on top of that.

Wonder what WoW players would say, if WoW would not allow bank alts anymore, but instead sell you bank space for a monthly fee, telling you: yeah, sorry, our servers are so bad. ;_;

Not here to talk about other MMORPGs, but Sword of Legends Online gives EVERY player a giant island with up to 3200 obects to place freely, so an absolute massive system that dwarves FF14 housing in every regard - and that game does not even have a sub. You can ALWAYS save SEVERAL versions of your whole housing area and switch them, reinstall them and so on, even if you would take a long enough break that your island would be taken away to create free space. But when you come back, just get a new island for free and just load all your stuff.

This is not about that MMORPG - it's about showing what is possible without taking a single cent from the player. And then Square wants to tell me, that as a sub game with a giant cash shop they are too poor to get some additional servers? I shall believe that bullshit?

Again; Square Enix is a company whose primary purpose is to make money. WoW is a PC game, built for PC, and never had to support any console infrastructure. FFXIV in its lifetime has had to support Playstation 3 and XBox 360. Updating systems to evolve out of that infrastructure costs money, and your argument is that they should make those changes because then people wouldn't have to keep paying them more money for another system that they already pay them money for, so that you can avoid the issues you see as a failure to account for the game being so popular that they decided to stop taking more money rather than sell more products.

If they have decided not to get more servers and sell more product and make more money, it's because it's not actually going to make them more money at this point in time. If it was, they would have already done it. Because... and say it with me here: Square Enix is a company, and companies like to make money.

WoW got several hundred servers, 10 times more than FF14 PLUS instancing. I don't ask FF14 to get the same number, but what about SOME more, not below the bare minimum? What would have people said, if only 30% of the players could get a garnison?

I would say "that's a silly decision, everyone wants garrisons".. but then I would have played anyway. Nobody owes you a house plot. You can stomp and cry and shout all you like; still nobody owes you a house plot.

Everyone of us old players knew, that the EW start would be terrible. It was bad before and with that campaign around WoW streamers and alike, yeah, surprise, marketing works. Who would have guessed.

Whatever. You guys just want to believe what you want anyway and don't care about the facts...

You're grossly conflating issues in entirely different spheres of the game and coopting them interchangeably to support arguments that aren't related to each other. You're only interested in "facts" insofar as they can be twisted to support your opinions. That's fine, this is what everyone does - it's nearly impossible to be impartial. FFXIV has problems; I completely agree that the inventory management system in the game is the worst in any MMO I remember and I hate the current housing system, but I'm able to see that those are issues to me only subjectively; people who either don't use a lot of inventory or have houses or don't have interest in houses have zero issues in any of these spheres.

Objectively speaking, the goals of releasing performance-issue free expansions in popular games and making money are mutually exclusive. You will simply never see a company scale up their equipment solely for expansion release and then let that free money sit on the table throughout the quiet time in between.

[Devilyaki]

Definitely, crafting is a different animal. There are some things that are actually impossible without specific stat allocations that become possible with melding. These days they are few and far between, but they certainly existed in the past and they rarely do now.



Top performers/world firsts in FFXIV are never undergeared when they go in, the game just doesn't work that way. You're right that they might rarely get a kill when they otherwise mightn't have or that the rare encounter that is actually overtuned to a degree that it matters, but you're also right that it's the top of the top that even need to think about doing this.

I think in a we are actually agreeing with each other right? That the most important thing by far is execution, after having the expected floor of equipment.

- - - Updated - - -


There will never, ever be a multiplayer game in existence that will adequately prepare for expansion release and have appropriate performance on release day. The reason is that the cost of reputation damage is less than the cost of temporarily propping up the server count. If you think they are going to say this to you, or that it somehow isn't true, you're being illogical. They aren't going to stop marketing or stop releasing content because they will have server issues; a game being too popular is simply not a problem (besides for the people who can't play it).


Companies like to make money.


Nobody owes you a house plot. They have decided, for whatever reason, that they want artificial scarcity in the system. If they didn't they could just add extra wards. It's fine for you to disagree with this, and even act on that disagreement by saying what you say, but that doesn't make it an actual problem.

I don't have a house, I wish I had a house, I wish their system was different... but it isn't. It's also not intrinsically a problem for the game because I don't like it. I hate that the system required botting up to this point, but the lottery system will fix that aspect.

Again; Companies like money, so they are going to market to sell as much as they can. If they sell so much that they can no longer afford to sell more, that's a problem that they want to have before any other problem. If you think they will behave differently you fail to understand that it is still a business.


Square Enix is a Japanese company that likes to focus on Japan first. Again, artificial scarcity with housing isn't intrinsically an issue, it's a decision that you see as an issue.


Again; Square Enix is a company whose primary purpose is to make money. WoW is a PC game, built for PC, and never had to support any console infrastructure. FFXIV in its lifetime has had to support Playstation 3 and XBox 360. Updating systems to evolve out of that infrastructure costs money, and your argument is that they should make those changes because then people wouldn't have to keep paying them more money for another system that they already pay them money for, so that you can avoid the issues you see as a failure to account for the game being so popular that they decided to stop taking more money rather than sell more products.

If they have decided not to get more servers and sell more product and make more money, it's because it's not actually going to make them more money at this point in time. If it was, they would have already done it. Because... and say it with me here: Square Enix is a company, and companies like to make money.


I would say "that's a silly decision, everyone wants garrisons".. but then I would have played anyway. Nobody owes you a house plot. You can stomp and cry and shout all you like; still nobody owes you a house plot.



You're grossly conflating issues in entirely different spheres of the game and coopting them interchangeably to support arguments that aren't related to each other. You're only interested in "facts" insofar as they can be twisted to support your opinions. That's fine, this is what everyone does - it's nearly impossible to be impartial. FFXIV has problems; I completely agree that the inventory management system in the game is the worst in any MMO I remember and I hate the current housing system, but I'm able to see that those are issues to me only subjectively; people who either don't use a lot of inventory or have houses or don't have interest in houses have zero issues in any of these spheres.

Objectively speaking, the goals of releasing performance-issue free expansions in popular games and making money are mutually exclusive. You will simply never see a company scale up their equipment solely for expansion release and then let that free money sit on the table throughout the quiet time in between.

Well for a company that want to make money and having a section of their store to housing, bit silly to limit who has a house is it not? They don’t need to do anything but still odd what they have done.

[ippollite]

Can i please keep meteion? I just did the escort quest. I want an entire expansion where we just travel everywhere around eorzea and she asks me cute questions!

[infinitemeridian]

Can i please keep meteion? I just did the escort quest. I want an entire expansion where we just travel everywhere around eorzea and she asks me cute questions!

Do you want spoilers?

[Granyala]

I think in a we are actually agreeing with each other right? That the most important thing by far is execution, after having the expected floor of equipment.

Yup we do.
Crafter gear, that is released before/with savage sees to it that no one goes in undergeared, aye.
In WoW it's a different matter, especially with the first Tier of content.

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Can i please keep meteion? I just did the escort quest. I want an entire expansion where we just travel everywhere around eorzea and she asks me cute questions!

She is cute, isn't she?

[The Casualty]

Using the tank calculator on DRK and comparing full penta-melded vs a mixture of limbo and Ex trial gear to get you to the same ilvl, you are looking at about 6-7% gain on the crafted gear. You *might* be able to get closer by switching out some of the Zodiark drops with Limbo ones, but then again, you are limited by weekly normal mode lockouts.

[StrawberryZebra]

My original blanket statement of 10-15% was more of a discussion point and throwing numbers into the wind. In reality I was only really looking at tanks and just guessed it might be the same, and/or more extreme for DPS/Healers when comparing damage. Looking through previous replies, I think some people are massively undershooting how much it does contribute, especially when a lot of the people doing savage content for the first week are using pure crafted gear with some level of over melding. When that happens, it does tend to push people down when comparing damage (especially if everyone's doing it).

Like you, I've not really looked into the actual numbers. I'm sure there are places where there are deep dives into the math behind FF14 but I've never bothered to go find them. I'm certain that pentamelding does contribute. How much is up for debate. But it's not one I want to get into detail on here - Too much math makes people with no interest in it switch off.

Someone who has more experience with crafting than me can tell you if it has optimised stats or not. I'm going to assume yes, but even if not then you're still getting more stats which is absolutely going to be a performance gain. Comparing someone who has the maximum amount of stats with an optimal distribution to one who got whatever they could put together from earlier content... 10-15% sounds a reasonable enough guesstimate. Wrecktangle put it at 12.5% so I don't think you're far wrong.

I'm not at all surprised that the serious raider types are going all in on this stuff. For them, it's an advantage and the rest of their team is going to expect them to have it no matter what.

Stats scale linearly with themselves, how they scale with each other is irrelevant to their absolute value.

In a vaccum, sure. In reality the value of stats are impacted by what other stats you already have. To take your DH example, 5% more DH might make adding additional DH less valuable relative to what you already have. It would however make your Strength/Int/Whatever more valuable, since you're getting a 1.25% modifier on it. It also makes your Crit and Det more valuable too - And adding more of them in turn increases the modifier you get on DH.

I'm sure you've seen some character stat weight websites before for an MMO, have you ever played around with your character on one of those? In early gear you're looking at stat weights where your best stat is worth, perhaps, 1.4 DPS per point and your worst perhaps 0.7 per point. By the end of an expansion your best stat might give you as much as 4 DPS per point, with your worst giving 3 per point.

There are edge cases where this starts to break down, like 100% crit chance for example, but almost universally adding more of a DPS stat to your character creates a positive feedback loop with with respect to how valuable your stats are overall.

Saying "every little bit counts" is a constant misnomer. There is absolutely a value at which everyone would stop paying or working for it. Nobody would pay 200000000 Gil for 1 dps on a base on 8000. It's a matter of where the opportunity and cost meet in the middle.

Extra stats is always going to be extra damage, if it makes economic sense to acquire those extra stats is down to individual judgement.

TL;DR, Yoshi P can easily take toxic feedback and throw it in the trash where it should be. Other developers take the toxic feedback to heart, and get demoralized, and some even quit over it. "This skill sucks, why would you design it this way? Whatever dev made this is fucking retarded." This isn't something terribly uncommon to hear from Xenosys and others like him. When called out on their shitty behavior, they go "It was just a joke" or "it's just my stream persona" but really, we all know those are just excuses for them to show their real, shitty personalities.

Part of this is due to people being dicks, part of it is due to streaming culture.

Streamers need to keep an audience entertained, and over the top hyperbole eg "This skill sucks and whatever dev made it is fucking retarded!" keeps an audiences attention better than a more rational discussion. Stirring up controversy is a bonus for them, it means they get even more excuses to pile on insults. They're not interested in an honest discussion, just their viewer counts.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think anyone should be hurling abuse at game developers about their game for any reason. But I can see why streamers and other online personalities have the incentive to do so.

I know the FF14 community puts Yoshi P on a pedestal, but I'd be surprised if this takes some of the venom out of the feedback but rather just redirects some of it to him instead. Which, I think, might be his intention. He's intentionally putting himself out there so the "criticism" is directed to him personally rather than his team. Then he throws it in the trash, where it belongs.

[Delekii]

In a vaccum, sure. In reality the value of stats are impacted by what other stats you already have. To take your DH example, 5% more DH might make adding additional DH less valuable relative to what you already have. It would however make your Strength/Int/Whatever more valuable, since you're getting a 1.25% modifier on it. It also makes your Crit and Det more valuable too - And adding more of them in turn increases the modifier you get on DH.

I'm sure you've seen some character stat weight websites before for an MMO, have you ever played around with your character on one of those? In early gear you're looking at stat weights where your best stat is worth, perhaps, 1.4 DPS per point and your worst perhaps 0.7 per point. By the end of an expansion your best stat might give you as much as 4 DPS per point, with your worst giving 3 per point.

There are edge cases where this starts to break down, like 100% crit chance for example, but almost universally adding more of a DPS stat to your character creates a positive feedback loop with with respect to how valuable your stats are overall.

That would be relevant if we were discussing an absolute dps gain; it isn't a positive feedback loop like you describe it when discussing the gain in percentage. The relative value of that DH is the same whatever your baseline dps. Since the discussion isn't really about "should I use pentamelded gear at this ilvl or that ilvl", it's not really relevant to the discussion what your other stats are; everyone who is pentamelding to raid in the gear is discussing the same set of gear with the same distribution of stats.

[|Dexter|]

It's been nearly a month and you still can't buy Final Fantasy 14!

[Cthulhu 2020]

Part of this is due to people being dicks, part of it is due to streaming culture.

Streamers need to keep an audience entertained, and over the top hyperbole eg "This skill sucks and whatever dev made it is fucking retarded!" keeps an audiences attention better than a more rational discussion. Stirring up controversy is a bonus for them, it means they get even more excuses to pile on insults. They're not interested in an honest discussion, just their viewer counts.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think anyone should be hurling abuse at game developers about their game for any reason. But I can see why streamers and other online personalities have the incentive to do so.

I know the FF14 community puts Yoshi P on a pedestal, but I'd be surprised if this takes some of the venom out of the feedback but rather just redirects some of it to him instead. Which, I think, might be his intention. He's intentionally putting himself out there so the "criticism" is directed to him personally rather than his team. Then he throws it in the trash, where it belongs.

I don't even really think it's streamer culture. I think "streamer culture" is 100% an excuse for Xeno to show his real self, something he normally has to hide. He's the same kind of person who says "Everyone is an asshole, and if they're being nice, they're lying". He says that a lot, enough to confirm that he genuinely believes it. He does not think there are genuinely nice people out in the world, and anyone who is, is lying.

It's an excuse assholes make to justify being an asshole. The reality is there are tons of people who are nice both in public and in private. And if they write toxic rants in their diary, what does it matter if they're treating everyone else well?

Llamatodd, Rin Karigani, Sfia, Zheph, Ferro, those are just a few off the top of my head who are all genuinely nice streamers with big audiences who make great content. Rin especially is on Xeno's level of being basically the best tank, and while Xeno specializes in WAR and DRK, Rin is more GNB and PLD. But Rin also knows everything about DRK and WAR as well. If someone wants quality tank content, there's no creator I'd suggest more than Rin, and no creator I'd suggest LESS than Xeno.

[Ghost of Cow]

It's funny because - according to people in game - it's all WoW players causing the toxicity.

Yoshi's statement has even been a victim of the telephone game enough that I've heard people say that Yoshi specifically said WoW players!

- - - Updated - - -

He's the same kind of person who says "Everyone is an asshole, and if they're being nice, they're lying". He says that a lot, enough to confirm that he genuinely believes it. He does not think there are genuinely nice people out in the world, and anyone who is, is lying.

It's an excuse assholes make to justify being an asshole. The reality is there are tons of people who are nice both in public and in private. And if they write toxic rants in their diary, what does it matter if they're treating everyone else well?

It's certainly not EVERYONE, but XIV does force a certain amount of false civility due to the heavy handed moderation.

Remove that and look into places outside the game and it's a lot of the same old, "haha look at this fkin noob healer didnt dps enough lol fkin scrub uninstall"

[Lane]

FFXIV isn't free of toxicity, it's just different. WoW's tends to be more direct, whereas FFXIV's is oppressive.

Regardless, I'm not sure where Yoshi-P is even getting the hate. Outside of a limited amount of spaces where people can speak critically, the western audience appears overwhelmingly in love with EW. It makes me wonder if the Japanese audiences have had issues with it and what they are.

[Tojara]

FFXIV isn't free of toxicity, it's just different. WoW's tends to be more direct, whereas FFXIV's is oppressive.

Regardless, I'm not sure where Yoshi-P is even getting the hate. Outside of a limited amount of spaces where people can speak critically, the western audience appears overwhelmingly in love with EW. It makes me wonder if the Japanese audiences have had issues with it and what they are.

It was the Japanese audience lol, that's what translations said in some of the articles I've read. I wouldn't have even known it was an issue and the only reason why I read about it was it was included in a summary of what's on the table for the next patch. More or less I was concerned about the balance changes. The TLDR was that the Japanese player base were baby raging about how bad Samurai is tuned right now.

You'll never find the toxicity in FF14 doing just regular dungeons or even normal mode raids, unless it's behind peoples back. A jaunt into party finder doing Savage difficulty is filled with people leaving after a couple of attempts, passive aggressive statements and flat out shit talking after they reform a group excluding the player in question. Yesterday when doing the second fight on Savage a player kept telling the group to stop talking, we talk too much and to just pull making it a 20 second timer. We pull, he fucks up and makes an excuse that his dog jumped on his controller (I see so many animals messing up attempts in the Savage PF BTW). It's whatever, we pull again and it's just people memeing from that point on about how people talk too much (which I found hilarious).

Eventually the dude leaves, and the flood gates of shit talk open up. What was pretty funny is that while people were memeing him in previous attempts there were a couple individuals who were trying to be civil and distance themselves from it. Being new to using party finder for Savage, I just sit back and observe because I literally have no idea what the rules are in this game for being 'toxic'. I'm generally even keel when it comes to hard content anyways, in any MMO, and my main purpose when doing it is to talk about improvements anyway, as I don't really want to waste my time, let alone others. I still do get a kick out of people arguing though, regardless of game.

All of that said, the only place I've witnessed toxicity in any form is the PF for high end trials or savage raid content. Which is honestly exactly where I'd expect it to be. If the majority of your play sessions is with a static (which is what I would recommend in any MMO BTW) you aren't going to see it that often, but it's certainly not a rare occurrence even in FF14 if your joining random ass groups with actual difficulty. I've done dozens upon dozens of PF groups in EW for extreme trials, the first two bosses on savage (and reclearing) and you would be willfully ignorant to believe that the amount of toxicity during that kind of environment is miniscule at best.