1. #53041
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Even if it were necessary in savage/extreme, I would say it's a different beast.
    Pretty sure it is necessary to watch people's performance in savage and I am reasonably sure that SE knows that, hence the lax attitude in regards to parsing. I mean we can spot the complete duds from just looking at their cast bar. Spotting someone that does mostly the right things but is held back by minor mistakes... a LOT harder to impossible to spot on the fly. Oftentimes, even the DPS number is not very helpful at all. It's a rough indicator that something is amiss but in order to find the errors you need to go deeper and do a proper log analysis.

    Once you do get consistent sub 5% enrage wipes despite mechanics being well executed, you're at a point where you have to look at the raw performance.

    Not that it would apply much to random groups, really. Most of them fracture once a few wipes happen anyway because someone either throws a tantrum or flat out ragequits.

  2. #53042
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Okay if you want addons out of the game how will you find out who the underperformers are in savages without them? Oh. Gotcha
    I don't care about savage content, I don't do it. But the way you would find out is the same way people found out in other MMO's that didn't allow addon's....

    Want to use it in Savage or other content like it fine go for it. Keep that shit out of Duty Finder it isn't needed.
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  3. #53043
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Yeah, those things would be contradictory and hypocritical, if they were in any way equivalent.

    You know somebody is too serious about games when he or she compares msq roulette to college projects where you need to all contribute or there are actual consequences, such as failing the project assignment or having to carry the burden.
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    How do you solve the problem of disrespect from lack of effort? It's a leisure activity and totally optional, what's to be held to account? I don't fail anything if my MSQ goes 3 minutes slower.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    The issue with the analogy here is that most of those things are actual, real-life things with real consequence.

    MSQ roulette is not your college project or promotion at work. It's more like...I don't know...playing beer pong for shits and giggles one night and getting upset that your one friend is laughing too hard to aim, or that no one is taking it seriously enough.
    What do you mean college projects where you all have to contribute? I have had many projects where people didn't pull weight. We still succeeded because others picked up the slack; but here's a real life example that has happened when only one or a few of the members show up to work: Stakeholders don't show up to meetings or give me resources and then they're literally dumbfounded when I deprioritize their project. Like you knew the consequences if you didn't participate you can't be mad or surprised.

    Since we've already established that the only difference is consequences between these 2 scenarios we can move on. If you personally believe that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions (or inactions) in FF14 (or any online game) then we're at an impasse. If you believe anything else, I fail to see how you can disagree with me. Just because something is a leisure activity doesn't absolve someone of their responsibility.

    Again, to be COMPLETELY clear I don't care about your DPS or how long the dungeon takes. I only care that if every single player (be it 3, 7, or 23) all put in identical effort to you (general you), would you still clear or have fun? If the answer is yes, then all is well; otherwise it's a problem. AFKing, or doing 1 button press every 10s, would not qualify. You'd have dead tanks, dead party members, and a boss at 86% HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Instead of going in circles about this as these discussions are wont to, I'll ask this:

    If third-party tools and the associated discussion that comes with them were to no longer be prohibited as per the ToS, what would you do with that? Imagine that you may use ACT openly and address people based on the information you can glean from it. What would that change for you?

    Because I can tell you right now that an AFKing Summoner, or a Summoner spamming one button in a MSQ roulette isn't likely to do so out of ignorance and won't kindly thank you for advising them to use other buttons. So then what? Mr. or Mrs. Summoner was told by you in some manner or another that they are performing badly. Now we both know they'll most likely ignore you/brush you off or get into an argument about it with you.
    At the end of the day we're all social creatures. If DPS information was public and abuse was policed (as it should be), I only see benefit. Console players get more insight into their performance without needing a PC friend, players might be more open to asking questions if they see someone in the same job and gear doing much better than them, and frankly people can't AFK and hide behind the ToS anymore. The only thing it hurts is the status quo of people not wanting to be held accountable.

    Anecdote here - but I once had a level 50 PLD (non sprout), who was in my leveling roulette. I think it was Tam Tara. Dude literally just spammed Shield Lob over and over, never switching targets so he only ever had aggro on one enemy at a time making everyone's life much harder. We tried offering help, he just flat out ignored us. It wasn't until the group and I decided to boot him at the last boss that he finally spoke up. He had gone through nearly 30 levels of dungeons (20-50) where NO ONE SAID ANYTHING so he thought he was doing it right. He got so abrasive and combative that he made a post on the OF bashing us. Little did he know that I made a post about him in the DF from hell post and someone actually connected the dots.

    The community was surprisingly split on "who was the asshole". A lot of people blamed me for kicking him at the last boss saying we made it that far we should have just cleared and ended it and moved on, but Dozens of groups ALREADY did that. By holding him accountable he learned a valuable lesson that day and I'd like to think is a better player for it and not ruining people's experience anymore. I just wish I didn't have to do it the way it was done.

    The chances that somebody playing "like a drooling something or other" as I imagine you would describe it would "mend their horrible ways" if you just give them a quick nudge and a heads-up via party or whisper chat is infinitesimal and we both know that, so can we stop pretending that this is somehow what it's all about? It feels like very bad LARP.
    That isn't how I have described this situation, nor is it how I would describe it and it shows you're not really attending the discussion in good faith. I was abundantly clear what this is about. It's about equivalent effort and mutual respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    That's the exact point. You can already report anyone for actual deliberate griefing, but short of that, having Square allow you to confront players on their "bad play" will not help anyone except those who want to stroke their ego.

    The worst part is that I have a feeling some people actually wish they could just lock players that underperform in their opinion out of the most basic surface level MSQ and roulette content. I'd be glad if those types of people never got humored, lmao.
    No pro parser player wants that. If you can cite someone saying it I'll be glad to apologize and edit my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    FULL STOP.
    It's a friggin' video game that most people play in the downtime from real life in order to relax and wind down. Stop making cringe real life comparisons please. Just because a player doesn't take FF too serious (Heresy, I know!), does not mean he goes through real life like that.
    This is just hyperbole. No one cares if you're only putting some effort in and not your maximum, ESPECIALLY in content that doesn't demand it. That wasn't the argument nor has it ever been.

  4. #53044
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    No one cares if you're only putting some effort in and not your maximum, ESPECIALLY in content that doesn't demand it.
    Maybe you should re-read the thread. There are quite a number of people that do care.

    I've had such people in random groups in WoW, they bitched and moaned about other's DPS despite the run going smoothly and everything dying.
    Idiots will be idiots.

    I still maintain that this whole "effort" discussion if a moot point if we are talking about content that does not require any effort to begin with.

  5. #53045
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    What do you mean college projects where you all have to contribute? I have had many projects where people didn't pull weight. We still succeeded because others picked up the slack; but here's a real life example that has happened when only one or a few of the members show up to work: Stakeholders don't show up to meetings or give me resources and then they're literally dumbfounded when I deprioritize their project. Like you knew the consequences if you didn't participate you can't be mad or surprised.

    Since we've already established that the only difference is consequences between these 2 scenarios we can move on. If you personally believe that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions (or inactions) in FF14 (or any online game) then we're at an impasse. If you believe anything else, I fail to see how you can disagree with me. Just because something is a leisure activity doesn't absolve someone of their responsibility.

    Again, to be COMPLETELY clear I don't care about your DPS or how long the dungeon takes. I only care that if every single player (be it 3, 7, or 23) all put in identical effort to you (general you), would you still clear or have fun? If the answer is yes, then all is well; otherwise it's a problem. AFKing, or doing 1 button press every 10s, would not qualify. You'd have dead tanks, dead party members, and a boss at 86% HP.



    At the end of the day we're all social creatures. If DPS information was public and abuse was policed (as it should be), I only see benefit. Console players get more insight into their performance without needing a PC friend, players might be more open to asking questions if they see someone in the same job and gear doing much better than them, and frankly people can't AFK and hide behind the ToS anymore. The only thing it hurts is the status quo of people not wanting to be held accountable.

    Anecdote here - but I once had a level 50 PLD (non sprout), who was in my leveling roulette. I think it was Tam Tara. Dude literally just spammed Shield Lob over and over, never switching targets so he only ever had aggro on one enemy at a time making everyone's life much harder. We tried offering help, he just flat out ignored us. It wasn't until the group and I decided to boot him at the last boss that he finally spoke up. He had gone through nearly 30 levels of dungeons (20-50) where NO ONE SAID ANYTHING so he thought he was doing it right. He got so abrasive and combative that he made a post on the OF bashing us. Little did he know that I made a post about him in the DF from hell post and someone actually connected the dots.

    The community was surprisingly split on "who was the asshole". A lot of people blamed me for kicking him at the last boss saying we made it that far we should have just cleared and ended it and moved on, but Dozens of groups ALREADY did that. By holding him accountable he learned a valuable lesson that day and I'd like to think is a better player for it and not ruining people's experience anymore. I just wish I didn't have to do it the way it was done.



    That isn't how I have described this situation, nor is it how I would describe it and it shows you're not really attending the discussion in good faith. I was abundantly clear what this is about. It's about equivalent effort and mutual respect.



    No pro parser player wants that. If you can cite someone saying it I'll be glad to apologize and edit my post.



    This is just hyperbole. No one cares if you're only putting some effort in and not your maximum, ESPECIALLY in content that doesn't demand it. That wasn't the argument nor has it ever been.
    I just think that for the sake of upholding your stance, you're assuming a far more utopian situation. You and I can probably both agree, as I said before, that a person who plays the way we're talking about here, it's not out of ignorance. I genuinely do not believe that if damage meters were baked in or at least allowed and the accompanying discussion was allowed as well, we'd suddenly enter some kind of age where we'd have a lot more players improving and reaching out for tips.

    You even say it yourself: you were in a group with somebody playing very badly and you gave them a nudge about it. They ignored you and got defensive when you did something about it. Now, or after this change, this would continue to happen.

  6. #53046
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I genuinely do not believe that if damage meters were baked in or at least allowed and the accompanying discussion was allowed as well, we'd suddenly enter some kind of age where we'd have a lot more players improving and reaching out for tips.
    I'd disagree here, though not for the reason you're probably expecting. The problem is FF 14 only gives you success or failure as outcomes. When your only metric is "did the boss die?" you don't get to pull a lot of useful data from that outcome.

    Success means you did enough to clear the content as a group. It doesn't offer much in the way of actionable feedback. It could be the sloppiest kill imaginable, but it's still a kill.

    Failure on the other hand is an opportunity to learn - It means you did something wrong, either performance wise or mechanically. If you messed up a mechanic then you get a area to improve. If you wipe due to a lack of DPS, there's nothing for you to dig into as to why your groups performance wasn't good enough. Sure, you know the DPS is too low, but how do you go about improving it? In the absense of obvious mistakes it's hard to know what you need to do to squeeze out the performance gain you need.

    When people hit this stage is when they'll install ACT, join The Balance Discord and then scour the logs to see what they can do to improve.

    Having those tools and resources in game makes them far more accessable to far more of the player base. Having an in game place to discuss Jobs and trade tips helps include Console players who can't simply tab out and find what they need.

    If there are concerns about using them to bludgeon other players or exclude them from content then make them personal. Having the option to see your own DPS only isn't going to impact on anyone but you. Too much? Instead how about a summary of your run and general tips once you finish instead. Something like "You used Confetior 30% less than the average player" or "Your melee uptime was 100%. Perfect Pugilistic Prowess!" - Just a little something to let you know how you did, even when you did everything right.

    It's a feedback issue and an access issue for me. Bringing things in game solves both of these, and puts the power to police it in Squenix's hands rather than 3rd parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    What do you mean college projects where you all have to contribute? I have had many projects where people didn't pull weight. We still succeeded because others picked up the slack
    You honestly have no idea how much this frustrates me. I've spent way to many nights doing other peoples share of the work in these types of situations simply because I refused to leave something half finished.

    The worst part is these people tend to be the ones who proudly brag about "their" success. Arseholes.

    It's probably why I despise any kind of collaborative work now. I'd rather just do it all myself because I know I'll need to do it all anyway and it's an easy way to avoid other peoples shit.

  7. #53047
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    What do you mean college projects where you all have to contribute? I have had many projects where people didn't pull weight. We still succeeded because others picked up the slack; but here's a real life example that has happened when only one or a few of the members show up to work: Stakeholders don't show up to meetings or give me resources and then they're literally dumbfounded when I deprioritize their project. Like you knew the consequences if you didn't participate you can't be mad or surprised.

    Since we've already established that the only difference is consequences between these 2 scenarios we can move on. If you personally believe that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions (or inactions) in FF14 (or any online game) then we're at an impasse. If you believe anything else, I fail to see how you can disagree with me. Just because something is a leisure activity doesn't absolve someone of their responsibility.
    That's just it, though. Things being similar in kind but vastly different in magnitude is important. (A bottle rocket isn't a nuclear bomb, despite being an "explosive".)

    Hell, we even have an idiom just for it: Making mountains out of molehills.

    Like I said, some things warrant an hard line stance on "effort". Some things don't. They are not the same. Generally speaking, most people are aware of the difference and - outside of "gamer" circles - you'd be strongly criticized for confusing one thing for the other.

    All that said, I'm not going to police someone's feelings on the situation. It's fine to be frustrated with someone. Just that if your "principles" on the matter are used as an excuse to come at someone, that's not right.
    Last edited by Ghost of Cow; 2022-05-18 at 10:36 PM.

  8. #53048
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I'd disagree here, though not for the reason you're probably expecting. The problem is FF 14 only gives you success or failure as outcomes. When your only metric is "did the boss die?" you don't get to pull a lot of useful data from that outcome.

    Success means you did enough to clear the content as a group. It doesn't offer much in the way of actionable feedback. It could be the sloppiest kill imaginable, but it's still a kill.

    Failure on the other hand is an opportunity to learn - It means you did something wrong, either performance wise or mechanically. If you messed up a mechanic then you get a area to improve. If you wipe due to a lack of DPS, there's nothing for you to dig into as to why your groups performance wasn't good enough. Sure, you know the DPS is too low, but how do you go about improving it? In the absense of obvious mistakes it's hard to know what you need to do to squeeze out the performance gain you need.

    When people hit this stage is when they'll install ACT, join The Balance Discord and then scour the logs to see what they can do to improve.

    Having those tools and resources in game makes them far more accessable to far more of the player base. Having an in game place to discuss Jobs and trade tips helps include Console players who can't simply tab out and find what they need.

    If there are concerns about using them to bludgeon other players or exclude them from content then make them personal. Having the option to see your own DPS only isn't going to impact on anyone but you. Too much? Instead how about a summary of your run and general tips once you finish instead. Something like "You used Confetior 30% less than the average player" or "Your melee uptime was 100%. Perfect Pugilistic Prowess!" - Just a little something to let you know how you did, even when you did everything right.

    It's a feedback issue and an access issue for me. Bringing things in game solves both of these, and puts the power to police it in Squenix's hands rather than 3rd parties.
    This still assumes that the average "bad" player is ignorant of their performance, rather than simply not caring. The fact that you have countless of stories about people being called out and getting defensive or outright venomous in response every day proves that. Hell, Wrecktangles very own anecdote proves my point there.

    I see that you have good intentions, though, and I don't think a personal built in DPS meter would be bad for people who want to improve. I just don't think they'll lead to much in practice except for the few that are truly willing to learn and improve, and chances are they'd already have gone out of their way to find a guide or some such.. The best thing you can do is accept that Duty Finder and Roulettes are a mixed bag (because please for the love of God let's not gatekeep that content) and simply curate your own parties better. Yeah, maybe Mr. One Button Summoner might get through Castrum without repercussion, but what if he tries to join a P4S group? Well, chances are he gets kicked almost right away or never even invited. Form a wall and it'll incentivize these people to improve or, barring that, stick to Duty Finder content.

  9. #53049
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I genuinely do not believe that if damage meters were baked in or at least allowed and the accompanying discussion was allowed as well, we'd suddenly enter some kind of age where we'd have a lot more players improving and reaching out for tips.
    Having over a decade's worth of experience in an MMO where parsers are the norm: I concur. The majority will not give a hoot.
    As Ghostcrawler (WoW Developer) so aptly stated way back when: It is a myth that most players will rise to a challenge if forced to do so. Some will, sure, but most will simply quit.

    Early cataclysm 5man dungeons were he best proof for that we ever needed. Completion rates were abysmal, players refused to learn, eventually Blizzard just had to swing the nerf-.bat again because the game was no longer fun when played with randoms.

  10. #53050
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Yeah, those things would be contradictory and hypocritical, if they were in any way equivalent.

    You know somebody is too serious about games when he or she compares msq roulette to college projects where you need to all contribute or there are actual consequences, such as failing the project assignment or having to carry the burden.
    They're perfectly equivalent. Every dungeon you do in roulette gives an equal reward to everyone. Why should I have to tolerate a person on auto follow who's occasionally casting Blizzard? Read the posts you're responding to and the context in which they offer criticism. They're not saying you have to do better than average or even average. They're saying there are people who need to not be lazy and push a few buttons. Why do you think that's too much to ask?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Instead of going in circles about this as these discussions are wont to, I'll ask this:

    If third-party tools and the associated discussion that comes with them were to no longer be prohibited as per the ToS, what would you do with that? Imagine that you may use ACT openly and address people based on the information you can glean from it. What would that change for you?

    Because I can tell you right now that an AFKing Summoner, or a Summoner spamming one button in a MSQ roulette isn't likely to do so out of ignorance and won't kindly thank you for advising them to use other buttons. So then what? Mr. or Mrs. Summoner was told by you in some manner or another that they are performing badly. Now we both know they'll most likely ignore you/brush you off or get into an argument about it with you.

    So what have you gained? Ah, I see. Nothing. The only thing you stand to gain from it is:

    1. The ability to fellate your own ego by publicly commenting upon your far superior DPS and incredulity at how another player can be so mediocre.

    2. The ability to draw out an argument and likely post it to friends/social media for validation.

    3. At the extreme end, if you manage to get people to embrace your mentality and Square to tacitly accept it, to get people kicked from duty finder msq-tier activities.


    The chances that somebody playing "like a drooling something or other" as I imagine you would describe it would "mend their horrible ways" if you just give them a quick nudge and a heads-up via party or whisper chat is infinitesimal and we both know that, so can we stop pretending that this is somehow what it's all about? It feels like very bad LARP.
    I've met countless people who said they only learned their rotation so others wouldn't see them as bad. Now imagine if nobody expressed the opinion that they don't want their time wasted by bad players.

    It's called social pressure. Even if that one summoner did nothing, it's a discussion others are having, and others will read it, and try hard just because they don't want to be looked down upon by others for being lazy. I'd prefer it if people wanted to pull their own weight simply because they enjoyed the pleasure of succeeding and doing well, but not everyone gets off on that.

    It's one of those things where there's no immediate, noticeable impact, but it creates a greater social issue and discussion that affects how people act.

    On addons, I don't care if people use them. This game isn't a competition. Where WoW's atmosphere would pit you against other players as much as it could, FF14 is more about celebrating personal achievement than trying to beat others into a pulp. If you play with addons, you make the game easier for yourself (yes, it's a fact, just be proud of it dude) and so the effort you put in your rewards are diminished, but if that's what you want to do to succeed, you do you brother.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Honestly, it completely and utterly mind blowing that people take issue with others wanting them to perform on the most basic of basic of basic levels. Nobody in this thread is asking anyone to parse average or better.

    Here's the entire point of this, if everyone on the development team for a game doesn't pull their weight, a game does not get made. If everyone on a production team does not pull their weight, a play would fail.

    If an entire team of lazy players gets queue'd together, the dungeon w ill fail. And then they get to requeue and get people who perform far better than average to carry them. These dungeons do have enrage timers and other gameplay checks at times, and they can be failed if nobody is trying. Hell, I remember one time a LONG time ago I did get a group with 3 extremely lazy players who could not complete Amaurot because they were too far behind the final boss's soft enrage to do it after 5 attempts. It wasted my time and made me mad.

    I also remember I had a conversation with someone awhile back where they stated they very frequently have bad dungeon groups, and I was saying I almost never get a bad dungeon group? Was that @Granyala or someone else? Whatever it is, if your common approach to dungeons is to half-ass, then perhaps that might explain why our experiences are so different.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  11. #53051
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    If you need addons to do a fight, then the fight wasn't designed well. WoW is the absolute worst where you have so many unintuitive mechanics going on that you die for uncomprehendable reasons unless you have DBM or spend 5 minutes scrolling over logs. DBM being mandatory and the cacophony of information overload that came with was one of the turnoffs of WoW to me.

    Mods are great. They allow one to tailor the experience of the game towards them, and address deficiencies in the game. FFXIV looks dull and washed out without reshade/gshade. Modded combat animations and sound effects and limit breaks are cooler than what you get ingame. Mods allow you to customize your summons (because it's 2022 and new Egis haven't been added yet). If you're a Hrothgar then you can't wear hats or change your hair unless you install a mod. And so on.


    And, ofcourse, there is XIVAlexander, which helps alleviate the game's poor input delay. Because Westerners (including Americans) don't have single digit ping like the Japanese.

    I completely agree with you about mods that help you complete a fight such as Cactbot and Triggernometry but I feel like UI mods are harmless and don't negatively impact anyone elses gaming experience.

    UI mods like new UI skins are purely client side, no one see's them but the player themselves



    As for the ping comment, another big problem for XIV especially for American's.


    Square Enix is planning to add more data centres over the course of 2022 and 2023 with the first ones appearing in July (JP and EU) and August for North America.


    So let's hope they take those kind of players into consideration.



    https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...8a3986554a2#05
    Last edited by AntenoraDK; 2022-05-19 at 08:26 AM.

  12. #53052
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I use such a macro to automatically cast Cure 3 on myself and it works flawlessly.
    It has flaws, you can't queue macros. You just aren't optimizing to a level where this is a problem for you.

  13. #53053
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Maybe you should re-read the thread. There are quite a number of people that do care.

    I've had such people in random groups in WoW, they bitched and moaned about other's DPS despite the run going smoothly and everything dying.
    Idiots will be idiots.
    Mind pointing any of them out? I know the one I cited certainly didn't. I feel like you missed the point. Things can certainly go smoothly with a ton of dead weight; most 24 mans fit into this category, but remember all those bad ones? Those sloppy messy ones, that you spent more than an hour in? The same ones where too many people were half assing it and you didn't have the minimum equivalent to clear?

    I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I just think that for the sake of upholding your stance, you're assuming a far more utopian situation. You and I can probably both agree, as I said before, that a person who plays the way we're talking about here, it's not out of ignorance. I genuinely do not believe that if damage meters were baked in or at least allowed and the accompanying discussion was allowed as well, we'd suddenly enter some kind of age where we'd have a lot more players improving and reaching out for tips.
    I don't assume it would happen suddenly. I think there'd be tremendous growing pains, but I do firmly believe that once those pains have subsided it would be a better environment for all.

    You even say it yourself: you were in a group with somebody playing very badly and you gave them a nudge about it. They ignored you and got defensive when you did something about it. Now, or after this change, this would continue to happen.
    To be fair though, they didn't have the information that they were doing poorly and because there was no indicator and the community is terrified to speak up which naturally reinforced to the player that they weren't doing anything incorrectly, when in reality it was cosmically bad. It's true that in this anecdote I don't think it would be solved, because this isn't a performance issue so much as it is a community issue, but that issue exists because they're terrified of performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Like I said, some things warrant an hard line stance on "effort". Some things don't. They are not the same. Generally speaking, most people are aware of the difference and - outside of "gamer" circles - you'd be strongly criticized for confusing one thing for the other.
    I'm not sure i follow this outside of gamer circles criticism that you're referencing. I'm also not sure you can cite "generally speaking" when there's pretty clearly a divide just here in this community, let alone the greater community/world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Having over a decade's worth of experience in an MMO where parsers are the norm: I concur. The majority will not give a hoot.
    As Ghostcrawler (WoW Developer) so aptly stated way back when: It is a myth that most players will rise to a challenge if forced to do so. Some will, sure, but most will simply quit.

    Early cataclysm 5man dungeons were he best proof for that we ever needed. Completion rates were abysmal, players refused to learn, eventually Blizzard just had to swing the nerf-.bat again because the game was no longer fun when played with randoms.
    Cata 5 mans were an outlier though; they were far too hard, and they gatekept the rest of the content. Remember, no one here is talking about difficulty or challenge, we're talking about people being accountable for their actions, i.e. afk/lazily playing with randoms because "it doesn't matter".

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    It's called social pressure. Even if that one summoner did nothing, it's a discussion others are having, and others will read it, and try hard just because they don't want to be looked down upon by others for being lazy. I'd prefer it if people wanted to pull their own weight simply because they enjoyed the pleasure of succeeding and doing well, but not everyone gets off on that.

    It's one of those things where there's no immediate, noticeable impact, but it creates a greater social issue and discussion that affects how people act.
    My post was already too long, but I wanted to touch on social pressure because it's absolutely real. No one WANTs to be excluded from groups so they'll do the bare minimum that is acceptable. Players like me just want what's acceptable to be, ya know, actually acceptable. AFK or pressing 1 button every 10s should not be acceptable from the community.

    If an entire team of lazy players gets queue'd together, the dungeon w ill fail. And then they get to requeue and get people who perform far better than average to carry them. These dungeons do have enrage timers and other gameplay checks at times, and they can be failed if nobody is trying. Hell, I remember one time a LONG time ago I did get a group with 3 extremely lazy players who could not complete Amaurot because they were too far behind the final boss's soft enrage to do it after 5 attempts. It wasted my time and made me mad.
    I have several runs of the Burn that are like this too (that's the one with the Mist Dragon right?). Hell I have 24 man runs that literally disbanded because of this. I even have savage floor 1 reclears where the group I joined and didn't have time to look up everyone got carried in their clears and we hit enrage, doing mechanics PERFECTLY with no deaths died to enrage at 26%. I was third highest DPS as a tank (only 200 dps behind 2nd highest) and this was in ShB when tanks were comically weak DPS wise.

    I also remember I had a conversation with someone awhile back where they stated they very frequently have bad dungeon groups, and I was saying I almost never get a bad dungeon group? Was that @Granyala or someone else? Whatever it is, if your common approach to dungeons is to half-ass, then perhaps that might explain why our experiences are so different.
    Could have been me, it sounds familiar? I have to post in the nightmare thread all the time, but I also run ACT during this content and it's not uncommon that I and healer are top DPS, but I certainly do not half ass it, just bad luck.

  14. #53054
    I don't disagree with the idea that doing the bare minimum of effort should be expected. However, the "bare minimum" is not universal. Not everyone has the same definition of what is considered the "bare minimum."

    To me the bare minimum is however much is required to clear the content. More is fantastic, but not required, as some people seem to be insinuating.

    Also, to me, the point of this game is for the player to enjoy themselves, enjoy playing the game. That includes me, and paying attention to and calling out other people and their performance in Duty Finder content is not enjoyable and in my experience, that rarely...exceedingly rarely does it actually ever bare fruit. Most of the time it just devolves into arguing, trash talking, and frustration which sometimes leads to people leaving which means me not being able to complete the duty which is the whole feckin point of me being there.

    If social pressure will affect a person's ability to enjoy the game, then I am against using it to make them perform to someone else's definition of "bare minimum," at least in the content that can easily be cleared with their performance being sub par.

    Based on my definition above, there is some content where the "bare minimum" is much higher than others and an individuals performance should be called out, scrutinized and adjusted as necessary or they won't and shouldn't participate in that content. Most of the stuff in Duty Finder is NOT that content.

    I have played the vast majority of my FFXIV tenure (been playing since before ARR launched and am still subbed) without ACT. I installed it for about 2 weeks in Shadowbringers and then uninstalled it because it profoundly affected my enjoyment of the game. It didn't make me change my own performance, but made me acutely aware of everyone else's performance as well as the discrepancies in time for completion for the duties. It turned everything into a competition and changed the dynamic of my playing time. I was painfully aware of how badly some people performed, and therefore was agitated and affected by knowing that information. Whereas without ACT I simply experienced the content and.just.played the game. Having the data to see performance wasn't helping me, at all.

    I'm just not that kind of player, and not everyone should or needs to be. If they want to get better they will, if they don't, they won't. I don't see the point in spending my time and energy (and affecting my personal enjoyment of the game) on trying to make other people perform to a level they don't care to, especially in Duty Finder content.

    To me, ignorance is truly bliss here.

    Again, I will say this mentality does not apply to the content where individual performance truly does matter. But not everyone participates in that. So that same mentality need not be applied to everything.

  15. #53055
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    This still assumes that the average "bad" player is ignorant of their performance, rather than simply not caring.
    The underlying assumption was that every player. no matter how good or bad they may be, will eventually reach a point where they're no longer able to progress. It could be they get stuck on Ultimates or Tara-Tam, but sooner or later we all hit a roadblock and need to up our game.

    The same is true in every single field. If you're playing Football you're going to reach a point where you need to put in some serious effort if you want to get better. Perhaps you need to work on your cardio, or strength training, or just plain ball handling. If you're learning to play the Piano you'll hit a point where you need to take a step back, figure out where you're going wrong and make steps to improve. Perhaps you need to work more on your scales or chords or understanding musical theory.

    Video games are no different. You eventually go as far as natural talent can take you and you've got to examine what it is you're doing right, and what you could do better, if you want to improve.

    I'm all for having the tools and resources in game to help with that. Street Figher has it's training room. LoL and Dota have free practice modes. WoW has it's dungeon Journal.

    FF 14 has.... Training Dummies? They let you practice your rotation, but theres no feedback on if you're getting it right, or how well you're doing at it. Mentors, I suppose? But thats used mostly as a way to get XP rather than a useful way to show new players the ropes and doesn't extend the full length of the game. There's a clear information gap here that needs to be filled imo. DPS meters are a part of that, but so are better ways of communicating this information to other players in game too.

  16. #53056
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The underlying assumption was that every player. no matter how good or bad they may be, will eventually reach a point where they're no longer able to progress. It could be they get stuck on Ultimates or Tara-Tam, but sooner or later we all hit a roadblock and need to up our game.

    The same is true in every single field. If you're playing Football you're going to reach a point where you need to put in some serious effort if you want to get better. Perhaps you need to work on your cardio, or strength training, or just plain ball handling. If you're learning to play the Piano you'll hit a point where you need to take a step back, figure out where you're going wrong and make steps to improve. Perhaps you need to work more on your scales or chords or understanding musical theory.

    Video games are no different. You eventually go as far as natural talent can take you and you've got to examine what it is you're doing right, and what you could do better, if you want to improve.

    I'm all for having the tools and resources in game to help with that. Street Figher has it's training room. LoL and Dota have free practice modes. WoW has it's dungeon Journal.

    FF 14 has.... Training Dummies? They let you practice your rotation, but theres no feedback on if you're getting it right, or how well you're doing at it. Mentors, I suppose? But thats used mostly as a way to get XP rather than a useful way to show new players the ropes and doesn't extend the full length of the game. There's a clear information gap here that needs to be filled imo. DPS meters are a part of that, but so are better ways of communicating this information to other players in game too.
    I imagine for the vast majority of the people who are doing Heavensward levels of damage in 2022, it has little to do with a roadblock and more to do with just not caring to put in any effort. If you care you are at the very least pushing buttons, and even if they aren't the optimal way of doing them, that should result in at least a fair amount that could be considered "productive" in a group. Sure, I've seen outliers in all the years I have played, but it has been the exception, not the rule.

    What gets tossed around a lot is some sentiment of "I just want to relax after work" or some variation of that. I don't personally get it, as anything I'm involved in I like to try to be good at it, or at the very least try to do my best. I would never play a game of pick up basketball after work (which I am admittedly terrible at) and just not try - at that point, why am I playing?

    Regardless, if its something like Alliance Roulette, or they are a DPS in an Expert Roulette, it doesn't really matter. It's disrespectful, but I don't care enough to say anything. If we fail and it's their fault, I'll just initiate a vote kick and move on. I will likely never see them in any content that requires any effort.

  17. #53057
    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    What gets tossed around a lot is some sentiment of "I just want to relax after work" or some variation of that. I don't personally get it, as anything I'm involved in I like to try to be good at it, or at the very least try to do my best. I would never play a game of pick up basketball after work (which I am admittedly terrible at) and just not try - at that point, why am I playing?
    It's fine to want to take everything you do seriously - I never intentionally underperform myself, either - but a lot of people aren't going to be that serious, like you touched on.

    It's just not worth fighting over in content where it literally just doesn't matter and one person can just about solo everything and not even slow the run down much. It's like sitting down to play Monopoly with your family and being like, "WTF BILLY WHY ARE YOU BUYING ELECTRIC COMPANY? ARE YOU EVEN TRYING, MAN?!"

  18. #53058
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    FF 14 has.... Training Dummies? They let you practice your rotation, but theres no feedback on if you're getting it right, or how well you're doing at it. Mentors, I suppose? But thats used mostly as a way to get XP rather than a useful way to show new players the ropes and doesn't extend the full length of the game. There's a clear information gap here that needs to be filled imo. DPS meters are a part of that, but so are better ways of communicating this information to other players in game too.
    I somewhat understand the desire to have some kind of empirical data that shows you that you're doing it "right" but for most video games, there isn't truly a "right" way to do it, though there are many "wrong" ways in some cases.. If you're having fun and enjoying yourself, you're doing it right and even more so if you're completing the content the game gives you. Some games are more forgiving than others in this regard.

    This is especially true in MMO's where there is rarely a set in stone, you must do this thing 100% literally exactly the same way every single time or you fail type encounter. There are multiple ways for resolving some mechanics, and every encounter is slightly different because you have different classes, different rotations, different timers, etc... so it's not exactly the same every time. Very similar, yes, but not EXACTLY the same. Different guilds accomplish their first kills slightly differently from others, though I'm sure they attack resolving individual mechanics in very similar fashions.

    This means "clearing the content" is exactly the metric that shows you whether you "did it right." Could you do it better, faster, more efficiently? Maybe, but that's not the point for the vast majority of content FFXIV has on offer. Simply completing it is the only metric that truly matters.

  19. #53059
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    It's fine to want to take everything you do seriously - I never intentionally underperform myself, either - but a lot of people aren't going to be that serious, like you touched on.

    It's just not worth fighting over in content where it literally just doesn't matter and one person can just about solo everything and not even slow the run down much. It's like sitting down to play Monopoly with your family and being like, "WTF BILLY WHY ARE YOU BUYING ELECTRIC COMPANY? ARE YOU EVEN TRYING, MAN?!"
    I feel like with the amount some people participate, it's a lot more akin to playing that game of Monopoly but that person only rolls the dice and goes around the board, and that is the extent of their interaction with the game. If everyone did it, the game goes nowhere, but thankfully there are typically enough players to make the game engaging. For some reason they find that fun, or at least worthwhile opposed to doing something else with their time, but as I said, I don't get it.

  20. #53060
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    They're perfectly equivalent. Every dungeon you do in roulette gives an equal reward to everyone. Why should I have to tolerate a person on auto follow who's occasionally casting Blizzard? Read the posts you're responding to and the context in which they offer criticism. They're not saying you have to do better than average or even average. They're saying there are people who need to not be lazy and push a few buttons. Why do you think that's too much to ask?
    They're not equivalent because if you get stuck with somebody uncooperative for a project at college or you have to work with another employee that doesn't pull their weight--at best, you'll experience extreme amounts of stress and pressure having to do the work for two people and at worst there could be repercussions for not finishing what you had to finish.

    The repercussions for playing with a bad or uncooperative player in FFXIV are that a dungeon takes 5 more minutes and at the extreme end that you might have to leave and queue up again.

    I've met countless people who said they only learned their rotation so others wouldn't see them as bad. Now imagine if nobody expressed the opinion that they don't want their time wasted by bad players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    It's called social pressure. Even if that one summoner did nothing, it's a discussion others are having, and others will read it, and try hard just because they don't want to be looked down upon by others for being lazy. I'd prefer it if people wanted to pull their own weight simply because they enjoyed the pleasure of succeeding and doing well, but not everyone gets off on that.
    It's called gatekeeping and will quickly turn FFXIV from a game where people can do their daily roulette without worry to one where they have to constantly deal with players arguing, or some lofty player shitting on them because their dps is 5% less than theirs.

    For the love of god, just accept that sometimes in a dungeon you'll be stuck with a player that performs awfully. It's a small price to pay for not having a WoW-esque recount dickwaving competition where people get kicked from normal dungeons for not playing "optimally." It works just fine as it is and it doesn't affect any higher end content since that is completely opt-in.

    There is no hidden goldmine of people who'd go from doing 2400 dps to doing 6000 if you just tell them "dude your dps is bad." Anyone who wants to self-improve will already take that initiative and look at guides to begin with, not because the Red Mage in their party went "your bad lmao." All embracing ACT and dps-shaming culture will lead to is that the extremists will feel validated in shitting on not only the people who perform so bad it must seem like trolling, but also the people that actually try but aren't tryhard parsers. We've experienced it before, we know how this goes. This is a hard and black and white line in the sand for sure, but that's only because it necessary, because gamers have proven that they do not grasp nuance. Tell them they are allowed to discuss player performance and the worst contingent can and will ruin it for everyone. This entire mod meltdown has proven that much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The underlying assumption was that every player. no matter how good or bad they may be, will eventually reach a point where they're no longer able to progress. It could be they get stuck on Ultimates or Tara-Tam, but sooner or later we all hit a roadblock and need to up our game.

    The same is true in every single field. If you're playing Football you're going to reach a point where you need to put in some serious effort if you want to get better. Perhaps you need to work on your cardio, or strength training, or just plain ball handling. If you're learning to play the Piano you'll hit a point where you need to take a step back, figure out where you're going wrong and make steps to improve. Perhaps you need to work more on your scales or chords or understanding musical theory.

    Video games are no different. You eventually go as far as natural talent can take you and you've got to examine what it is you're doing right, and what you could do better, if you want to improve.
    Okay, but if this is totally on a personal basis, I'm going to make a pulled out of ass statistics guesstimation and proclaim with some confidence that under 10% of the people playing "terribly" now will suddenly find themselves waking up to that fact and will seek to self-improve. The reason for that is that the resources are already out there. There are a billion guides that might not teach you how to raid Ultimate level but at least explain how to play semi-competently. If a person wasn't looking those up in the first place, seeing their bad dps isn't going to significantly change that. That aside, I can't actually find any fault with the concept of adding a built-in personal DPS meter that only shows your own performance. Though I would argue that without anything else to compare it to, the purpose is nullified. Most people won't be able to put the DPS into context without other players to compare to, unless they google what the average dps at a certain gameplay level is, but at that point they're doing research they could've done without a dps meter.
    I'm all for having the tools and resources in game to help with that. Street Figher has it's training room. LoL and Dota have free practice modes. WoW has it's dungeon Journal.
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    FF 14 has.... Training Dummies? They let you practice your rotation, but theres no feedback on if you're getting it right, or how well you're doing at it. Mentors, I suppose? But thats used mostly as a way to get XP rather than a useful way to show new players the ropes and doesn't extend the full length of the game. There's a clear information gap here that needs to be filled imo. DPS meters are a part of that, but so are better ways of communicating this information to other players in game too.
    FFXIV doesn't have much, but it does have Stone, Sky, Sea. I'm pretty sure it's updated for modern content and basically it allows you to whack a training dummy for.. a few minutes, I think? Then it sees how much damage you did to it and tells you whether it was viable enough for, say, Endsinger Ex.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As a side-note, I really would dig a training mode where you can learn the mechanics of a given fight in a vacuum. Without a group, without the boss nuking the hell out of you-- basically just a test if you can resolve the mechanic so you can improve your grasp on them.

    But I suppose they might think that trivializes the content.
    Last edited by Yarathir; 2022-05-19 at 08:20 PM.

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