[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[The Casualty]

It's fine to want to take everything you do seriously - I never intentionally underperform myself, either - but a lot of people aren't going to be that serious, like you touched on.

It's just not worth fighting over in content where it literally just doesn't matter and one person can just about solo everything and not even slow the run down much. It's like sitting down to play Monopoly with your family and being like, "WTF BILLY WHY ARE YOU BUYING ELECTRIC COMPANY? ARE YOU EVEN TRYING, MAN?!"

I feel like with the amount some people participate, it's a lot more akin to playing that game of Monopoly but that person only rolls the dice and goes around the board, and that is the extent of their interaction with the game. If everyone did it, the game goes nowhere, but thankfully there are typically enough players to make the game engaging. For some reason they find that fun, or at least worthwhile opposed to doing something else with their time, but as I said, I don't get it.

[Yarathir]

They're perfectly equivalent. Every dungeon you do in roulette gives an equal reward to everyone. Why should I have to tolerate a person on auto follow who's occasionally casting Blizzard? Read the posts you're responding to and the context in which they offer criticism. They're not saying you have to do better than average or even average. They're saying there are people who need to not be lazy and push a few buttons. Why do you think that's too much to ask?

They're not equivalent because if you get stuck with somebody uncooperative for a project at college or you have to work with another employee that doesn't pull their weight--at best, you'll experience extreme amounts of stress and pressure having to do the work for two people and at worst there could be repercussions for not finishing what you had to finish.

The repercussions for playing with a bad or uncooperative player in FFXIV are that a dungeon takes 5 more minutes and at the extreme end that you might have to leave and queue up again.

I've met countless people who said they only learned their rotation so others wouldn't see them as bad. Now imagine if nobody expressed the opinion that they don't want their time wasted by bad players.

It's called social pressure. Even if that one summoner did nothing, it's a discussion others are having, and others will read it, and try hard just because they don't want to be looked down upon by others for being lazy. I'd prefer it if people wanted to pull their own weight simply because they enjoyed the pleasure of succeeding and doing well, but not everyone gets off on that.

It's called gatekeeping and will quickly turn FFXIV from a game where people can do their daily roulette without worry to one where they have to constantly deal with players arguing, or some lofty player shitting on them because their dps is 5% less than theirs.

For the love of god, just accept that sometimes in a dungeon you'll be stuck with a player that performs awfully. It's a small price to pay for not having a WoW-esque recount dickwaving competition where people get kicked from normal dungeons for not playing "optimally." It works just fine as it is and it doesn't affect any higher end content since that is completely opt-in.

There is no hidden goldmine of people who'd go from doing 2400 dps to doing 6000 if you just tell them "dude your dps is bad." Anyone who wants to self-improve will already take that initiative and look at guides to begin with, not because the Red Mage in their party went "your bad lmao." All embracing ACT and dps-shaming culture will lead to is that the extremists will feel validated in shitting on not only the people who perform so bad it must seem like trolling, but also the people that actually try but aren't tryhard parsers. We've experienced it before, we know how this goes. This is a hard and black and white line in the sand for sure, but that's only because it necessary, because gamers have proven that they do not grasp nuance. Tell them they are allowed to discuss player performance and the worst contingent can and will ruin it for everyone. This entire mod meltdown has proven that much.

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The underlying assumption was that every player. no matter how good or bad they may be, will eventually reach a point where they're no longer able to progress. It could be they get stuck on Ultimates or Tara-Tam, but sooner or later we all hit a roadblock and need to up our game.

The same is true in every single field. If you're playing Football you're going to reach a point where you need to put in some serious effort if you want to get better. Perhaps you need to work on your cardio, or strength training, or just plain ball handling. If you're learning to play the Piano you'll hit a point where you need to take a step back, figure out where you're going wrong and make steps to improve. Perhaps you need to work more on your scales or chords or understanding musical theory.

Video games are no different. You eventually go as far as natural talent can take you and you've got to examine what it is you're doing right, and what you could do better, if you want to improve.

Okay, but if this is totally on a personal basis, I'm going to make a pulled out of ass statistics guesstimation and proclaim with some confidence that under 10% of the people playing "terribly" now will suddenly find themselves waking up to that fact and will seek to self-improve. The reason for that is that the resources are already out there. There are a billion guides that might not teach you how to raid Ultimate level but at least explain how to play semi-competently. If a person wasn't looking those up in the first place, seeing their bad dps isn't going to significantly change that. That aside, I can't actually find any fault with the concept of adding a built-in personal DPS meter that only shows your own performance. Though I would argue that without anything else to compare it to, the purpose is nullified. Most people won't be able to put the DPS into context without other players to compare to, unless they google what the average dps at a certain gameplay level is, but at that point they're doing research they could've done without a dps meter.
I'm all for having the tools and resources in game to help with that. Street Figher has it's training room. LoL and Dota have free practice modes. WoW has it's dungeon Journal.

FF 14 has.... Training Dummies? They let you practice your rotation, but theres no feedback on if you're getting it right, or how well you're doing at it. Mentors, I suppose? But thats used mostly as a way to get XP rather than a useful way to show new players the ropes and doesn't extend the full length of the game. There's a clear information gap here that needs to be filled imo. DPS meters are a part of that, but so are better ways of communicating this information to other players in game too.

FFXIV doesn't have much, but it does have Stone, Sky, Sea. I'm pretty sure it's updated for modern content and basically it allows you to whack a training dummy for.. a few minutes, I think? Then it sees how much damage you did to it and tells you whether it was viable enough for, say, Endsinger Ex.

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As a side-note, I really would dig a training mode where you can learn the mechanics of a given fight in a vacuum. Without a group, without the boss nuking the hell out of you-- basically just a test if you can resolve the mechanic so you can improve your grasp on them.

But I suppose they might think that trivializes the content.

[Cthulhu 2020]

They're not equivalent because--

You just want to dismiss the examples because they shred the point you were trying to make. Basically what you said is that because the two situations aren't exactly alike, nor do they elicit the exact same emotions from the person, they're not comparable at all. They are comparable. Not perfectly, but good enough that it was an acceptable analogy. You don't LIKE it, but these things don't care if you like them or not.

It's called gatekeeping

You literally cannot gatekeep someone's DPS or performance. If you tell them to up their game in game, you get reported and eventually banned if you do it enough. Me sitting here telling someone to up their game on the forums is not going to affect anything they do with me.

and will quickly turn FFXIV from a game where people can do their daily roulette without worry to one where they have to constantly deal with players arguing, or some lofty player shitting on them because their dps is 5% less than theirs.

You really did oil up that slippery slope and aimed for the stars huh? But like I said above, nobody is asking that players perform perfectly, excellently, or even average. It's unacceptable that someone should be doing 5% of their potential damage. Utterly unacceptable. I've kicked tens if not a couple of hundred people from groups because they were trying to mooch, labeling them as AFK. If they're pressing a button once every 10 seconds and doing almost no damage, it's not even untrue. I don't want leeches in my group, and if you come in, put someone on follow, and expect me not to notice, you're in for a rude awakening.

For the love of god, just accept that sometimes in a dungeon you'll be stuck with a player that performs awfully.

See, here's the weird part about all of this, you keep trying to use vocabulary and sentences that seem to suggest we're mad over people performing sub optimally. We're not. We want people to do more than 5% of their potential damage. Why is that so much to ask? Why must I accept that I will have these players? I don't and I won't, and I haven't.

There is no hidden goldmine of people who'd go from doing 2400 dps to doing 6000 if you just tell them "dude your dps is bad." Anyone who wants to self-improve will already take that initiative and look at guides to begin with, not because the Red Mage in their party went "your bad lmao." All embracing ACT and dps-shaming culture will lead to is that the extremists will feel validated in shitting on not only the people who perform so bad it must seem like trolling, but also the people that actually try but aren't tryhard parsers. We've experienced it before, we know how this goes. This is a hard and black and white line in the sand for sure, but that's only because it necessary, because gamers have proven that they do not grasp nuance. Tell them they are allowed to discuss player performance and the worst contingent can and will ruin it for everyone. This entire mod meltdown has proven that much.

This is basically just one giant paragraph that bemoans people who will shit on you for not doing 95%+ of your potential DPS. Which won't happen. It's against TOS to shit on people's performance in game.

Please dude, if you want to reply to our posts, respond to the topic at hand. We're not talking about extreme parsing. We're talking about NOT BEING AFK.

Is it really too much to ask that people not expect me to do all of the work for their rewards? Please answer this question. <3

[Ghost of Cow]

You just want to dismiss the examples because they shred the point you were trying to make. Basically what you said is that because the two situations aren't exactly alike, nor do they elicit the exact same emotions from the person, they're not comparable at all. They are comparable. Not perfectly, but good enough that it was an acceptable analogy. You don't LIKE it, but these things don't care if you like them or not.

Again, they're not the same at all. Just because they're similar ideas doesn't make them anywhere near the same when you compare them.

Family Monopoly night is not your college grade or career. I'm not sure if people are actually under the impression that they're truly similar concepts or they're just married to the analogy to win the argument or something, but it's discouraging to think that people might actually fall into the former category.

[Yarathir]

You just want to dismiss the examples because they shred the point you were trying to make. Basically what you said is that because the two situations aren't exactly alike, nor do they elicit the exact same emotions from the person, they're not comparable at all. They are comparable. Not perfectly, but good enough that it was an acceptable analogy. You don't LIKE it, but these things don't care if you like them or not.

Sure. Somebody doing shit DPS in a Heavensward leveling dungeon and the dungeon taking 5 min longer is totally equivalent to you doing a college or university project with another person and failing or having to carry the entire thing yourself because the other person isn't contributing. You are very smart.

You literally cannot gatekeep someone's DPS or performance. If you tell them to up their game in game, you get reported and eventually banned if you do it enough. Me sitting here telling someone to up their game on the forums is not going to affect anything they do with me.

Sir, we were talking about what players want to change. This discussion started over people wanting ACT and DPS discussions to be accepted by Square. I'm simply stating why I don't want that to happen. I am fine with how it is now, more or less.

You really did oil up that slippery slope and aimed for the stars huh? But like I said above, nobody is asking that players perform perfectly, excellently, or even average. It's unacceptable that someone should be doing 5% of their potential damage. Utterly unacceptable. I've kicked tens if not a couple of hundred people from groups because they were trying to mooch, labeling them as AFK. If they're pressing a button once every 10 seconds and doing almost no damage, it's not even untrue. I don't want leeches in my group, and if you come in, put someone on follow, and expect me not to notice, you're in for a rude awakening.

Sorry for having eyes and ears. I know I should be totally ignorant to precedent and just act as if things magically either happen or don't happen based on whether the Fairy Godmother decided it would happen, rather than acknowledging that if people had the freedom to attack each other based on DPS numbers in a game, that would inevitably also enable the worst contingent. You know, like it did in another MMORPG.. uhm, I forgot the name. It's on the tip of my tongue--oh yeah, World of Warcraft.

See, here's the weird part about all of this, you keep trying to use vocabulary and sentences that seem to suggest we're mad over people performing sub optimally. We're not. We want people to do more than 5% of their potential damage. Why is that so much to ask? Why must I accept that I will have these players? I don't and I won't, and I haven't.

You're not mad but you get worked up over it? First of all, I didn't even state you were mad or anything, I'm simply saying I don't care for what reason you want DPS shaming to be enabled in FFXIV, I simply do not, and that roulette and duty finder has and always will be a mixed bag and if you don't like that, you can just start rolling with premade parties so you can be sure everybody performs to your minimum standard.

This is basically just one giant paragraph that bemoans people who will shit on you for not doing 95%+ of your potential DPS. Which won't happen. It's against TOS to shit on people's performance in game.

Please dude, if you want to reply to our posts, respond to the topic at hand. We're not talking about extreme parsing. We're talking about NOT BEING AFK.

Is it really too much to ask that people not expect me to do all of the work for their rewards? Please answer this question. <3

If that's what you got from the paragraph, you're beyond help. You made 0 attempt to actually engage with the content of said paragraph and now you're instructing me to answer your questions.

[wombinator04]

Third party tools goes against the spirit of this game.........that is the spirit of having any actual customization at all other than cosmetic.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Sure. Somebody doing shit DPS in a Heavensward leveling dungeon and the dungeon taking 5 min longer is totally equivalent to you doing a college or university project with another person and failing or having to carry the entire thing yourself because the other person isn't contributing. You are very smart.

Sir, we were talking about what players want to change. This discussion started over people wanting ACT and DPS discussions to be accepted by Square. I'm simply stating why I don't want that to happen. I am fine with how it is now, more or less.

Sorry for having eyes and ears. I know I should be totally ignorant to precedent and just act as if things magically either happen or don't happen based on whether the Fairy Godmother decided it would happen, rather than acknowledging that if people had the freedom to attack each other based on DPS numbers in a game, that would inevitably also enable the worst contingent. You know, like it did in another MMORPG.. uhm, I forgot the name. It's on the tip of my tongue--oh yeah, World of Warcraft.

You're not mad but you get worked up over it? First of all, I didn't even state you were mad or anything, I'm simply saying I don't care for what reason you want DPS shaming to be enabled in FFXIV, I simply do not, and that roulette and duty finder has and always will be a mixed bag and if you don't like that, you can just start rolling with premade parties so you can be sure everybody performs to your minimum standard.

If that's what you got from the paragraph, you're beyond help. You made 0 attempt to actually engage with the content of said paragraph and now you're instructing me to answer your questions.

The hilarious part is you keep making this about "DPS shaming" and wanting people to play optimally because you know you can win that argument. You know what we've been saying? We want people to not AFK in our dungeons. You didn't even answer my question because you KNOW it's not too much to ask to have someone not be AFK.

Please stop straw manning and actually address what I said. You didn't address a single point in my post, at all. You just went on tangets and didn't address the meat of the subject.

We're talking about AFK people in dungeons. You're the only one here whining about sub-optimal DPS shaming. If you want to be part of the conversation, don't ADD and change the subject. Me and others have been talking on this subject. YOU responded to US. You're the one changing the topic. If you want to quote my posts, don't go on tangents because you know you can win the strawman that is your inane ramblings.


IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK THAT A PERSON NOT BE AFK OR NEAR AFK IN DUNGEONS?


Yes or no.

Any other answer will lead to my understanding that you've given up and are admitting defeat.

Here, I'll even make it EVEN EASIER for you to understand what's going on here.

No, I do not believe nor want players to DPS shame others for being sub-optimal. That answered your questions and effectively agreed with you on that part. The conversation you want to have is done. Over. I agree with you. Now get on topic. Is it too much to ask that players not be AFK in dungeons?

[Yarathir]

The hilarious part is you keep making this about "DPS shaming" and wanting people to play optimally because you know you can win that argument. You know what we've been saying? We want people to not AFK in our dungeons. You didn't even answer my question because you KNOW it's not too much to ask to have someone not be AFK.

Please stop straw manning and actually address what I said. You didn't address a single point in my post, at all. You just went on tangets and didn't address the meat of the subject.

We're talking about AFK people in dungeons. You're the only one here whining about sub-optimal DPS shaming. If you want to be part of the conversation, don't ADD and change the subject. Me and others have been talking on this subject. YOU responded to US. You're the one changing the topic. If you want to quote my posts, don't go on tangents because you know you can win the strawman that is your inane ramblings.


IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK THAT A PERSON NOT BE AFK OR NEAR AFK IN DUNGEONS?


Yes or no.

Any other answer will lead to my understanding that you've given up and are admitting defeat.

Here, I'll even make it EVEN EASIER for you to understand what's going on here.

No, I do not believe nor want players to DPS shame others for being sub-optimal. That answered your questions and effectively agreed with you on that part. The conversation you want to have is done. Over. I agree with you. Now get on topic. Is it too much to ask that players not be AFK in dungeons?

Yeah, I'm done with you. You're literally just dismissing all I said to strawman (ironic as you go on to accuse me of it) my entire stance and then demand I answer your questions while pretending to be the reasonable one here.

Inb4 "waah you didn't answer my questions, you're proving me right." I literally don't care. You've proven to engage with nothing being posted, argue in bad faith, insist your bad analogies should be adhered to to proceed with the argument and now after arguing for several replies, you're insisting the argument you were having never even existed, then want to gloss over all of that to boil it down to push a question that isn't actually relevant to what I said at any point since I mentioned over a page ago that literally AFKing is considered griefing and reportable as is.

Do me a favor and warn me ahead of time that this is how you do things--it'll make it a lot easier for us in the future.

[eschatological]

They're not equivalent because if you get stuck with somebody uncooperative for a project at college or you have to work with another employee that doesn't pull their weight--at best, you'll experience extreme amounts of stress and pressure having to do the work for two people and at worst there could be repercussions for not finishing what you had to finish.

The repercussions for playing with a bad or uncooperative player in FFXIV are that a dungeon takes 5 more minutes and at the extreme end that you might have to leave and queue up again.

I've met countless people who said they only learned their rotation so others wouldn't see them as bad. Now imagine if nobody expressed the opinion that they don't want their time wasted by bad players.


It's called gatekeeping and will quickly turn FFXIV from a game where people can do their daily roulette without worry to one where they have to constantly deal with players arguing, or some lofty player shitting on them because their dps is 5% less than theirs.

This is just player attitude. I raided for a long time in WoW at the Cutting Edge level - not world first or even world 50, but we completed the mythic tier before the next one came out every time. And in any guild where I was raidleader/officer/eventual GM, we didn't recruit people who were dickwaving parsers. We didn't allow it. And we expected our members to carry that attitude into any pug content they were doing as long as they had our tag.

In literally more than a decade of dungeon running in WoW at high end, I've had less than a handful of pug dungeons rage quit, and it was solved with a simple kick. Now, lots of pugs disband - but that's not a toxic interaction. That's a person who values their time at a certain level, which wasn't being met, and then left because their goals weren't being met. Why should the person who values their time and contribution more have to put up with people's expectations way below theirs? You wouldn't ask the casual to put up with the person always yelling "go go go go go."

If FFXIV has such a wonderful, helpful community - they will continue to be so even if addons are introduced. It sounds like you're just afraid that the community is just forced niceness and that the aggressiveness is, by TOS, made passive.

Thus concludes my TED talk.

[Yarathir]

This is just player attitude. I raided for a long time in WoW at the Cutting Edge level - not world first or even world 50, but we completed the mythic tier before the next one came out every time. And in any guild where I was raidleader/officer/eventual GM, we didn't recruit people who were dickwaving parsers. We didn't allow it. And we expected our members to carry that attitude into any pug content they were doing as long as they had our tag.

In literally more than a decade of dungeon running in WoW at high end, I've had less than a handful of pug dungeons rage quit, and it was solved with a simple kick. Now, lots of pugs disband - but that's not a toxic interaction. That's a person who values their time at a certain level, which wasn't being met, and then left because their goals weren't being met. Why should the person who values their time and contribution more have to put up with people's expectations way below theirs? You wouldn't ask the casual to put up with the person always yelling "go go go go go."

If FFXIV has such a wonderful, helpful community - they will continue to be so even if addons are introduced. It sounds like you're just afraid that the community is just forced niceness and that the aggressiveness is, by TOS, made passive.

Thus concludes my TED talk.

No, I'm just fully aware of what embracing addons, especially dps meters, has done to WoW and I don't want it to come over to FFXIV, which has somehow managed to do just fine without them until now--after the WoWfugee wave. And we're still talking about duty finder and roulette shit. Nowhere am I advocating that you should not be able to curate your own groups. Just not to turn leveling-tier content into a place where tryhards can feel validated to shit up the atmosphere.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Yeah, I'm done with you. You're literally just dismissing all I said to strawman (ironic as you go on to accuse me of it) my entire stance and then demand I answer your questions while pretending to be the reasonable one here.

Projection, literally doing everything you're accusing me of, but are we surprised? I answered your question and your topic at the end of the post. That ended the discussion. Did you not even read? Can you read?

I'm sorry the conversation going on here is one that you're afraid to answer a simple question for. It's a shame you responded to me. Next time you respond to my posts, please warn me before going off on tangents that have nothing to do with what I said. I accept your admission of being wrong too. Tata.

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So question I pose to everyone else who is capable of reading:

Is it too much to ask that a party member do more than 5% of the total damage in a dungeon? Is it too much to ask that a party member not be AFK?

This isn't some slippery slope where "not allowing people to AFK" leads to "OMG YOU'RE ONLY DOING 86% PARSE KICK". That kind of slippery slope will never happen because it's against the TOS. So posters like @Yarathir who seem to think this is a big deal worth discussion couldn't be more wrong. Tons of people already use ACT in dungeons. They have been for YEARS. This isn't even new in the least. If someone shames your damage in a dungeon, you can report them and get their account actioned. So worrying about "addons leading to player shaming and gatekeeping" WILL LITERALLY NEVER HAPPEN.

[Thestrawman]

I Iove how this whole 10+ page nonsense discussion started by some idiot linking a picture of ACT from a dungeon that has over 50 Ilvl difference between the minimum and the top. And no one bothered to ask what Ilvl anyone was at.

[jesushowinthewhat]

You just want to dismiss the examples because they shred the point you were trying to make. Basically what you said is that because the two situations aren't exactly alike, nor do they elicit the exact same emotions from the person, they're not comparable at all. They are comparable. Not perfectly, but good enough that it was an acceptable analogy. You don't LIKE it, but these things don't care if you like them or not.



You literally cannot gatekeep someone's DPS or performance. If you tell them to up their game in game, you get reported and eventually banned if you do it enough. Me sitting here telling someone to up their game on the forums is not going to affect anything they do with me.



You really did oil up that slippery slope and aimed for the stars huh? But like I said above, nobody is asking that players perform perfectly, excellently, or even average. It's unacceptable that someone should be doing 5% of their potential damage. Utterly unacceptable. I've kicked tens if not a couple of hundred people from groups because they were trying to mooch, labeling them as AFK. If they're pressing a button once every 10 seconds and doing almost no damage, it's not even untrue. I don't want leeches in my group, and if you come in, put someone on follow, and expect me not to notice, you're in for a rude awakening.



See, here's the weird part about all of this, you keep trying to use vocabulary and sentences that seem to suggest we're mad over people performing sub optimally. We're not. We want people to do more than 5% of their potential damage. Why is that so much to ask? Why must I accept that I will have these players? I don't and I won't, and I haven't.



This is basically just one giant paragraph that bemoans people who will shit on you for not doing 95%+ of your potential DPS. Which won't happen. It's against TOS to shit on people's performance in game.

Please dude, if you want to reply to our posts, respond to the topic at hand. We're not talking about extreme parsing. We're talking about NOT BEING AFK.

Is it really too much to ask that people not expect me to do all of the work for their rewards? Please answer this question. <3

Made an account just to say looking at your post history you sure come across as some crazy heavily opinionated nutjob that nobody should listen to. I think you think that you sound really intelligent here, and you probably think you "won" (whatever that means) but I assure you that all you've done here is embarrass yourself and ruin your precious credibility (30k posts, oh my lord so don't pretend like you don't care about how people perceive you, otherwise we wouldn't be here)

I'm not going to read all of your ramblings, but if Yarathir or whoever else is done debating with you, then I will gladly embarrass you just to prove you are not the man you think you are.

What's the topic? What are we talking about here? Toss me a quick summary and I'll dismiss every point you make.

[Granyala]

Things can certainly go smoothly with a ton of dead weight; most 24 mans fit into this category, but remember all those bad ones? Those sloppy messy ones, that you spent more than an hour in? The same ones where too many people were half assing it and you didn't have the minimum equivalent to clear?

I do.

Cata 5 mans were an outlier though; they were far too hard, and they gatekept the rest of the content.

1) 24mans only become a problem when people fail the mechanics. DPS is virtually irrelevant in there, with the exception of a handful of transition phases. The last problematic 24man I remember were the Mhach ones, particularly Ozma, because the split groups combined with harsh mechanical punishments made this boss hard for many groups, since us healers could not simply resurrect and heal across alliance groups. Apart from that, problematic runs were actually quite rare for me. YMMV, different server and all that jazz. Do keep in mind: I'm a healer, so I can compensate for A LOT of fails and I usually do.
That isn't the point of the discussion, because we are discussing DPS not execution of mechanics. Lets face it: FF-XIV is designed in a way that stuff goes down if people obey the mechanics. DPS is entirely secondary until you reach savage/ultimate. Heck, even in savage, my experience is that as soon as the mechanics are played fluidly and mostly error free, the kill is pretty much guaranteed.

As @Katchii already pointed out: everyone defines the "bare minimum" as something else. The whiners in this thread construct a scenario of people being close to completely AFK, when that is a behavior I have encountered extremely rarely and only in MSQ, where shit literally dies anyway. For reference: I started playing in the ARR days, and often run content random (not savage or extreme though, that I only did with friends).

So yeah: I do think this argument is 99% hyperbole and wannabe-tryhards searching for ways to feel superior. I'll gladly pick this topic back up when I actually encounter the behavior in the game and run into problems. Until then, this discussion is purely academic and we're having it while I clear content effortlessly left and right.

2) Incorrect. Cataclysm dungeons were NOT hard. They most certainly were not harder than TBC heroics that people did just fine pre Wrath, before they got spoiled with freeloot easy faceroll dungeons for 2 years. They required a modicum of DPS, knowing which mechanics to obey, conscious healing and a handful of interrupts (wipe reason no1: people were to stupid to kick a 5s long cast UGH!).
Ironically: that's what I'd call "minimum requirement" for qualifying as engaging content.

Calling them "hard" in any way is laughable. Had Cata arrived right after TBC, these dungeons would not have been a problem at all.

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Is it too much to ask that a party member do more than 5% of the total damage in a dungeon? Is it too much to ask that a party member not be AFK?

For anyone that can relate theory with practice: does that even happen outside of 24mans and MSQ, where a dud or 2 literally do not matter?

Heck, when I parse myself in 24mans, I actually have to put in effort in order to not be left behind completely. Since I don't raid savage, my gear ain't so hot, it's actually hard to get purple parses for my lil' DRK.

So where are these horrible players that cause wipes and grief? :'D

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What's the topic? What are we talking about here? Toss me a quick summary and I'll dismiss every point you make.

TLR: A handful of wannabe tryhards spotted a semi-AFK player in the easiest content of the game using a parser and makes a fuss out of a theoretical doomsday scenario where players AFK left and right and see to horrible run after horrible run.

The reality: these individuals are few and far in between, only appear in content where they know that they can get away with it, because contrary to popular belief, even the freeloaders have no interest in wiping and wasting time. In the mean time, if you are not a savage god with the item level bonus, you actually have to work for it when you want to stand in front of the randoms while parsing.

[jesushowinthewhat]

Projection, literally doing everything you're accusing me of, but are we surprised? I answered your question and your topic at the end of the post. That ended the discussion. Did you not even read? Can you read?

I'm sorry the conversation going on here is one that you're afraid to answer a simple question for. It's a shame you responded to me. Next time you respond to my posts, please warn me before going off on tangents that have nothing to do with what I said. I accept your admission of being wrong too. Tata.

- - - Updated - - -

So question I pose to everyone else who is capable of reading:

Is it too much to ask that a party member do more than 5% of the total damage in a dungeon? Is it too much to ask that a party member not be AFK?

This isn't some slippery slope where "not allowing people to AFK" leads to "OMG YOU'RE ONLY DOING 86% PARSE KICK". That kind of slippery slope will never happen because it's against the TOS. So posters like @Yarathir who seem to think this is a big deal worth discussion couldn't be more wrong. Tons of people already use ACT in dungeons. They have been for YEARS. This isn't even new in the least. If someone shames your damage in a dungeon, you can report them and get their account actioned. So worrying about "addons leading to player shaming and gatekeeping" WILL LITERALLY NEVER HAPPEN.

Fine. I'll bite

I want to preface this with saying you are speaking with an individual who is progressing on phase 6 of DSR, who has cleared every prior ultimate during it's patch cycle, and has 16 years of MMO experience including leading top 50 US raid teams in WoW, being apart of top 10 US raid teams in WoW, and finishing the most recent Savage raid tier top 100 world. I am sure you'd be surprised by most of my takes here, but I'm doing this to show that not all hardcore players, or performance driven folk have your philosophy here.

"MSQ Roulette and college projects are perfectly equivalent."

I believe your main point is that you believe it isn't too much to ask of folks to perform up to your standards in random groups. The question I have for you is, what are your standards? 95 percentile level damage or above? 99? Top 10 world?

The problem with your argument is simply: This is a video game. A video game in which a multitude of different types of individuals can play with varying levels of skill. A game that has content which is gated/specifically catered towards the hardcore player, and other content that is accessible by anyone. A game where a vast majority of players actually care about the story, and make it their number 1 priority versus being a parse centric memelord who crit farms in PF 24/7.

Not everyone wants to be the best in the world. Nor should they. People should feel comfortable playing at the level they want to play at without being hounded by toxic folk such as yourself that believes your way is the right way to play and no one elses. If you want to play hardcore, do it in a space specifically catered towards that.

Also, I find it quite comical you are comparing having the same level of commitment for a video game to the same level of commitment one should have towards their college degree and their potential financial future. That says a lot about you as a person, and not in a good way. Sad.

"Social pressure"

Making the argument that peer pressure is actually a good thing is a rather narcissistic perspective. Forcing others to care about things simply because they feel like they have to fit into some social circle isn't the way to create a productive environment. The reason why this fails is eventually those players realize that they shouldn't have their opinions be influenced by some rando on the internet. The desire to want to improve the overall skill level of the community is clearly driven by some selfish desire to not play with shitty players, or have your own time wasted.

"This game isn't a competition"

Yikes. Contradiction.

Your point about failing if someone doesn't pull their weight is valid. But, what is failure if not a learning experience for future success? Someone that wins and is 100% right 100% of the time doesn't exist, no matter how much you believe that to do be false. Handling being the weak link and learning how to perform in such an environment, learning how to soak up knowledge and all of that jazz is vastly important to character growth, and their experience with their betters has a huge impact on their motivation to improve. Belittle others and telling them they are wrong more often than not has the opposite effect of your desired outcome.

You clearly have a lot to learn about social structure, and how people behave when they are challenged. You'd learn a lot from experimenting with just being a stand-up dude who tolerates playing with midcore players. I think you'd find that it's okay to not care. And you'd find it's okay to fail. Because that failure is a powerful self-motivator. Far more of a motivator than some rando telling them they suck, and they should perform up to their standards or get kicked. The irony here is when I lead my own guild I rejected many a player just like you from my guild. Toxicity breeds toxicity, and elitism breeds elitism. And elitism is a distraction from tactical analysis and team building. A skill you clearly lack.

"You should take this game as serious as a college project"

I would laugh if this statement wasn't truly sad. I hope your life has more happiness in it in the future and you learn something from this experience. Tata.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Made an account just to say looking at your post history you sure come across as some crazy heavily opinionated nutjob that nobody should listen to. I think you think that you sound really intelligent here, and you probably think you "won" (whatever that means) but I assure you that all you've done here is embarrass yourself and ruin your precious credibility (30k posts, oh my lord so don't pretend like you don't care about how people perceive you, otherwise we wouldn't be here)

I'm not going to read all of your ramblings, but if Yarathir or whoever else is done debating with you, then I will gladly embarrass you just to prove you are not the man you think you are.

What's the topic? What are we talking about here? Toss me a quick summary and I'll dismiss every point you make.

Way to come out swinging with those ad hominems champ. But good on you for making a burner account just so you could say it! You're a champ. And by the way, you come across as more combative than me. But that's to be expected since you AMDE AN ACCOUNT SPECIFICALLY TO ENGAGE WITH ME IN CONVERSATION.



Conversation: People in dungeons are straight up AFKing or pushing one button and doing 5% of the dungeon's total damage, that's not okay.
Yarathir: Who are you to tell them what they can and can't do? If we use addons, then we'll start having a culture where people who don't do their maximum DPS are going to be shamed and kicked!
Me: We're not talking about people doing maximum DPS, we're talking about people who are just straight up lazy and want a free ride.
Yarathir: BUT IF WE DON'T LET THESE PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT THEN SLIPPERY SLOPE EVERYONE WILL START SHAMING EVERYONE AHHHH
Me: Can you please get on topic? This is about people being AFK in dungeons.
Yarathir: You're dumb and I'm trying my hardest to make this conversation about damage meter shaming.
Me: Damage meter shaming which literally can't happen since it's against TOS?
Yarathir: OMG YOU DON'T GET IT I WON'T ENGAGE WITH YOU ANY MORE!




So if you're jumping into the conversation, starting point question:

Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no.

- - - Updated - - -

I want to preface this with saying you are speaking with...

Man you really did rub one out. I led a top 50 WoW guild back in Vanilla in Naxx, funny how that works? Then spent another 10 years raid leading before bowing out because WoW became shit. I've been playing online games since the mid 90's with MUDs and eventually Ultima Online and Everquest. I've sat through 8 hour boss kills in the Planes of Hate and so forth. I have triple legend and have been taking it quite slow and easy for DSR. I have plenty of experience my guy.

"MSQ Roulette and college projects are perfectly equivalent."

They're analogous, in that while the situation is not the exact same, the overall concept is similar and thus one can make a fair point. Does someone AFKing in a dungeon affect your IRL as much as someone being lazy on a project? No. But during University I often carried my groups while 3 people did nothing, 2 people sorta helped, and I did 60% of the work. I resented those people for leeching a free ride off our hard work, but back then I was too nervous to confront them about it. And with how I like to succeed in everything, I was all too willing to be the stooge that did all of the work. But I made sure to tell the professors about it. Was I chicken shit for not confronting the people directly? Sure. But I wasn't going to let them off with a free ride completely.

I believe your main point is that you believe it isn't too much to ask of folks to perform up to your standards in random groups. The question I have for you is, what are your standards? 95 percentile level damage or above? 99? Top 10 world?

My standard is that they not be AFK. And that they perhaps press a button once every 3 or 4 seconds. So your questions asking me what my threshold is, it's pretty damn low. In roulette group content, I hardly expect someone to perform great or even average. But BEING PRESENT would be nice.

Also, I find it quite comical you are comparing having the same level of commitment for a video game to the same level of commitment one should have towards their college degree and their potential financial future. That says a lot about you as a person, and not in a good way. Sad.

Or perhaps it's more indicative of an overall attitude, that I take everything I do with some level of seriousness. Even when I'm having fun playing games. I'm not beating myself up over this kind of stuff or agonizing over it, but with 25 years of MMO experience, doing well is just second nature to me. It's not even a matter of practice. I have the pedigree.


Your entire post seems to be some massive diatribe against me when you clearly have no clue what the discussion was even about. You talk about casual players who seek to improve, but do not do well yet. But you know what? If I see that someone is trying and dying a lot in a dungeon, I will gladly help them. I appreciate people who TRY. What I don't appreciate is people who don't try.

But both you and Yarathir have tried to psychoanalyze me, as well as change what the conversation is about, or add on extras like casuals who are just bad at the game. It's pretty obvious to see when someone is trying and when someone is not my guy. Also, the psychoanalyzation and trying to get under my skin by pointing out personality traits you believe I have is a pretty cringe move. I'm smelling OMEGA projection on your part.

So what now, now that your attempt to roll me by using the same strawman has failed?

See that's the thing, you're trying to make this conversation about something it's not. Dragging it over into territory about the "casuals" who are having a hard time and trying so hard, omg why do you hate them? Again, it's pretty obvious when it's leeches and when it's something who's trying their best. I'm talking about the leeches. You two are trying to make it about the people trying their best. I do not shame people with ACT. I do not shame people who try. I am specifically talking about people who are lazy leeches and want a free ride. If you can't address that specifically, please take a hike.

[jesushowinthewhat]

Way to come out swinging with those ad hominems champ. But good on you for making a burner account just so you could say it! You're a champ. And by the way, you come across as more combative than me. But that's to be expected since you AMDE AN ACCOUNT SPECIFICALLY TO ENGAGE WITH ME IN CONVERSATION.



Conversation: People in dungeons are straight up AFKing or pushing one button and doing 5% of the dungeon's total damage, that's not okay.
Yarathir: Who are you to tell them what they can and can't do? If we use addons, then we'll start having a culture where people who don't do their maximum DPS are going to be shamed and kicked!
Me: We're not talking about people doing maximum DPS, we're talking about people who are just straight up lazy and want a free ride.
Yarathir: BUT IF WE DON'T LET THESE PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT THEN SLIPPERY SLOPE EVERYONE WILL START SHAMING EVERYONE AHHHH
Me: Can you please get on topic? This is about people being AFK in dungeons.
Yarathir: You're dumb and I'm trying my hardest to make this conversation about damage meter shaming.
Me: Damage meter shaming which literally can't happen since it's against TOS?
Yarathir: OMG YOU DON'T GET IT I WON'T ENGAGE WITH YOU ANY MORE!




So if you're jumping into the conversation, starting point question:

Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no.

- - - Updated - - -



Man you really did rub one out. I led a top 50 WoW guild back in Vanilla in Naxx, funny how that works? Then spent another 10 years raid leading before bowing out because WoW became shit. I've been playing online games since the mid 90's with MUDs and eventually Ultima Online and Everquest. I've sat through 8 hour boss kills in the Planes of Hate and so forth. I have triple legend and have been taking it quite slow and easy for DSR. I have plenty of experience my guy.



They're analogous, in that while the situation is not the exact same, the overall concept is similar and thus one can make a fair point. Does someone AFKing in a dungeon affect your IRL as much as someone being lazy on a project? No. But during University I often carried my groups while 3 people did nothing, 2 people sorta helped, and I did 60% of the work. I resented those people for leeching a free ride off our hard work, but back then I was too nervous to confront them about it. And with how I like to succeed in everything, I was all too willing to be the stooge that did all of the work. But I made sure to tell the professors about it. Was I chicken shit for not confronting the people directly? Sure. But I wasn't going to let them off with a free ride completely.



My standard is that they not be AFK. And that they perhaps press a button once every 3 or 4 seconds. So your questions asking me what my threshold is, it's pretty damn low. In roulette group content, I hardly expect someone to perform great or even average. But BEING PRESENT would be nice.





Or perhaps it's more indicative of an overall attitude, that I take everything I do with some level of seriousness. Even when I'm having fun playing games. I'm not beating myself up over this kind of stuff or agonizing over it, but with 25 years of MMO experience, doing well is just second nature to me. It's not even a matter of practice. I have the pedigree.


Your entire post seems to be some massive diatribe against me when you clearly have no clue what the discussion was even about. You talk about casual players who seek to improve, but do not do well yet. But you know what? If I see that someone is trying and dying a lot in a dungeon, I will gladly help them. I appreciate people who TRY. What I don't appreciate is people who don't try.

But both you and Yarathir have tried to psychoanalyze me, as well as change what the conversation is about, or add on extras like casuals who are just bad at the game. It's pretty obvious to see when someone is trying and when someone is not my guy. Also, the psychoanalyzation and trying to get under my skin by pointing out personality traits you believe I have is a pretty cringe move. I'm smelling OMEGA projection on your part.

So what now, now that your attempt to roll me by using the same strawman has failed?

See that's the thing, you're trying to make this conversation about something it's not. Dragging it over into territory about the "casuals" who are having a hard time and trying so hard, omg why do you hate them? Again, it's pretty obvious when it's leeches and when it's something who's trying their best. I'm talking about the leeches. You two are trying to make it about the people trying their best. I do not shame people with ACT. I do not shame people who try. I am specifically talking about people who are lazy leeches and want a free ride. If you can't address that specifically, please take a hike.

Yeah, I really feel sorry for you bro. I mean that sincerely. You're on here raging like a 14 year old over differing opinions on a video game. I really, really, realllllly hope you understand how sad this is one day and move on from all of this. I used to be like you, which is why I can read you so damn well. It's incredibly cringeworthy listening to you spout terms you barely understand and speak on topics you have barely any experience on. For what? To be "right"? Seems to me that your life is in a pretty sorry state, so you come here to try to "win" in whatever way you can. Which, again, I get. But jesus bro, what in the holy fuck. I want you to know, unironically, not even trolling you or trying to bait you that my first reaction to seeing this ridiculous wall of text was to cringe.

Anyway, to address your nonsense:

When it comes to the subject of ad hominem in this particular case I believe it to be pretty appropriate to attack you specifically. Why? Because you are the source of this debate, and it comes from a very emotional perspective in which you just have to be right. You have demonstrated here with me, and with others that you cannot leave well enough alone. Which puts others in the position of just laughing at you, or feeling sorry for you like I have expressed I do.

"Come out swinging" Yeah, I don't pull punches when it comes to dealing with children like you. And by children I don't mean your age, because it's pretty apparently you're at least 30 years old based on your join date. I mean mental maturity. Sorry if that triggers you, or whatever bro.

"Come across as more combative" I don't know dude, I'm simply addressing your embarrassingly lengthy video game argument and expressing my pity for you. I even expressed that I hope you have a good life. The fact that you need to make this a "battle" tells me a lot about how you perceive other around you. You are unable to take advise without trying to dismiss points or arguments. There's this thing called having a "growth mindset". It's fine to be confident in your intellectual ability, or knowledge level. But when you display very obvious intent to not listen or acknowledge others perspectives you just make yourself out to look like a sad angry little man who just can't accept that people are different than you. Boo hoo.

"Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no."

Honestly? If you're asking me individually that question I normally go into random dungeon groups as a tank or healer both of which I have full savage BiS. I'm a turbo nerd who uses food + pre pots trash to make sure it dies incredibly quickly. Primarily because I have a job, and a life, and don't want to spend any longer than I have to in a dungeon. But, I NEVER give a flying fuck about the skill level of the other people in the group. Because I acknowledge that people just don't care as much as I do, and that's okay. What you're expressing is the equivalent of being upset that an elderly lady is taking forever to put her food up to be scanned in a grocery store. It's annoying, sure. But how you can sit there and actually try to justify your behavior is beyond me, and most people here I think. You're a dick. Plain and simple. I can see why you need to be right all the time. It's probably the only pleasurable social event that occurs in your life is when you win an argument, isn't it?

"I lead a guild back in Naxx" "Experience"

Yeah, I figured man. You speak like someone who isn't a shitter. I have every confidence you're a good player. It's likely you fibbed a bit on your achievements here just to show off, but frankly I don't give a shit. You're in the top 1%. But that wasn't my point. My point was to show you that I'm on or around the same level as you in terms of experience and performance, and yet I have a completely different perspective on gaming than you do. It's funny how that works out sometimes. The primary difference between the two of us comes down to accepting that people play video games at differing levels. I can accept this. And you cannot. You probably had too many 0.1% wipes and have massive PTSD as a result. It sucks, but it doesn't justify your behavior bro.

"They're analogous" "I resented people"

Yeah, there in lies the core issue here. You resent people for not being as good as you. Look at what it is you're typing. This is very narcissistic behavior. No one should live to others standards. Only their own. It's their life to live, and ultimately their happiness to achieve. I understand what you're getting at. Truly I do. I used to have the same sort of mindset in my early 20s. I even had the crazy idea of taking all the super intelligent people, putting them on a rocket, and just nuking the rest of the world and starting the fuck over. But the thing is, I changed. And the reason I changed had a lot to do with realizing that putting our progress as a species first is the most important. Sometimes being incredibly efficient and productive 24/7 without having joy, love, and laughter can have serious detrimental effects on a society. I understand this is somewhat philosophical and I'm making assumptions into your trains of thought here. But, I like to think I understand people like you. Far more than you'd probably realize. Look at what's happening in Korea/China when people are forced to work long hours, and become gods at what it is they do. There's a reason the free countries are the strongest countries in the world in spite of all that manual labor people are forced to do. Your way, is not the way my friend. I thought it was, but it isn't.

"My standard is that they not be AFK."

That's fair. That's what the kick option is for. I dunno man, I always jump into dungeons as a warrior and am capable of soloing most content in this game by myself. I find it challenging and rewarding to carry people. And often times those people I carry add me to friends and I end up giving them advise. It's not something I find to be a burden, but rather my responsibility as a seasoned MMO veteran. But if people don't want my help, that's cool. I simply look at carrying people as hard mode, or a pseudo-achievement. Your mentality screams "I'm not good enough to carry these people" True or not, it's a pretty substandard mentality for someone with as much experience as you have. If you're going to be a hardcore player, don't half ass it. Be good enough to carry most groups, or you're just not very good at all. In my opinion, anyway.

"Or perhaps it's more indicative of an overall attitude, that I take everything I do with some level of seriousness."

Yeah, that's what I thought you meant. I already expressed my thoughts on this philosophy above, so I'll leave it there.

"Your entire post seems to be some massive diatribe against me when you clearly have no clue what the discussion was even about."

It kind of was. I'm glad we got that out of the way. But I don't hate you. I was you. I pity you. I feel sorry for you. I wish you'd understand you are really just embarrassing yourself by continuing to play out this needlessly, pointless, silly discussion. Play the game. Get good. Stop engaging with idiots and mediocre players on MMO-Champion, a website that is very much still a WoW website, and go make progress on DSR. If you're going to have these sorts of discussions, do it in the various XIV discords. Or, have you gotten banned from all of them for your outrageous behavior already? :hmm:

"I don't appreciate people who don't try"

It's. A. Video. Game. It's meant to be fun, and what's not fun for most people, is being told that you are fucking trash and should uninstall the game. Your behavior is more likely to turn away potentially future good players from playing this game, rather than helping anyone improve in any sort of manner. There's a reason why most of the XIV community refuses to play WoW. I'll tell you right the fuck now, if I ever saw you in my group, and you acted this way in my party, I would report you and have you banned in an instant. And you'd be sitting there crying about it on the forums like you're doing now.

"But both you and Yarathir have tried to psychoanalyze me"

This is because you've made it very clear that your behavior is based on emotion rather than logic. You dislike something, so you get upset about it and rage about it on the WoW forums. It's weird behavior that makes most normal folk question why the fuck you are the way you are, and how we can help you see reason, or help you understand what an ass/idiot you've made yourself out to look like. No one is trying to change the subject. Everyone here has addressed all of your points. It's you that refuses to acknowledge them. It's you that refuses to budge on your points. It's you that's unwilling to go "hey, you have a point. maybe I'm wrong" or at the very fucking least "hey, I acknowledge your point. i disagree with you, but i understand why you feel the way you do."

No bro, you are attacking everyone you see fit here who disagrees with you like a 14 year old. You're using words you probably learned in philosophy 101 about 12 years ago in freshman year of college to make yourself look intelligent. That just doesn't fly when you confront actual adults with real world experience. You know this, and that's why you can't let this go. You can't lose, can you? That'd be suicidal! :O

I just...damn dude. Those 3 people that AFK'D Smileton the other damn must have really gotten on your nerves eh? I'm lucky enough to have other things to do and if a group is bad enough I just take the 30 minute cooldown and go do other shit around my house. Don't you? Tell me you do, please. Because every post you make makes it more and more obvious that this video game is your entire life. You can have the soundest argument in the world, and still look like a complete idiot in this situation. It's unwinnable for you. My suggestion to you would be to just...walk away.

Or you can keep going on and on about "ad hominem" and other various fallacies that use conveniently placed "logic" to justify being an absolute asshat of a human being. It's your call.

[Onikaroshi]

Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no.

I just kick them, one person does not get to waste 3 other peoples time.

I used to try to help, but you get blown up on enough for trying you just stop and start kicking.

[StrawberryZebra]

FFXIV doesn't have much, but it does have Stone, Sky, Sea. I'm pretty sure it's updated for modern content and basically it allows you to whack a training dummy for.. a few minutes, I think? Then it sees how much damage you did to it and tells you whether it was viable enough for, say, Endsinger Ex.

The issue I take with them is that they don't give you any feedback other than a Yes/No outcome on if your DPS is high enough.

If you get a Yes and your DPS is high enough you don't know if that's a one off fluke or consistent without more information. You don't know if you were right on the bare minimum line or if you're doing double the damage you need to.

If you get a No, it doesn't tell you what you need to do to get that to being a Yes. It could be anything from a lack of gear, the wrong stats, rotation errors or, the one I see most commonly, not pressing a GCD every time they're available.

What I'd like to happen is if you fail, you get some in-game guidance on where you went wrong. It doesn't need to be a scientific breakdown that gives you 600 page spreadsheets, just a simple "Oh hey, your DPS is too low because you've not got any Materia at all. Most players of your job use Crit".

The reason for that is that the resources are already out there.

I'm advocating that instead of having them just be out there, we also put them in there. In an easy to access place where players can find them. With all the tools you'd need to grow as a player and ways to get in contact with other like-minded players. Perhaps even some community curated guides or maybe a way to get in contact with a player of your job who'd be willing to be an actual Mentor.

Not to mention that there's a lot about doing Group content that you're just expected to know. Burst windows being the obvious example. Nothing in game teaches you it, any everyone else in the group thinks you know already. It gives off the impression that content is harder and more exclusive than perhaps it really should be.

I don't think this would help the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel players, and it won't help the absolute best of the best. But its for everyone in between and those looking to make the jump into harder content it's got a bit smoother.

[eschatological]

This isn't some slippery slope where "not allowing people to AFK" leads to "OMG YOU'RE ONLY DOING 86% PARSE KICK". That kind of slippery slope will never happen because it's against the TOS. So posters like @Yarathir who seem to think this is a big deal worth discussion couldn't be more wrong. Tons of people already use ACT in dungeons. They have been for YEARS. This isn't even new in the least. If someone shames your damage in a dungeon, you can report them and get their account actioned. So worrying about "addons leading to player shaming and gatekeeping" WILL LITERALLY NEVER HAPPEN.

I'm on your side, and I do agree 5% is unacceptable in a dungeon, as that's pretty much afk.

But I can understand the argument against saying that. Who gets to draw the line? 5% may be universally be seen as unacceptable. What about 25%? What about 33%? What about 50%? Surely some people will be of the attitude that 86% is too low.

In those cases, some, like SE, think you have to either allow it all, or allow nothing. They're allowing no line-drawing, for fear of creepingly increasing line-drawing. And, fwiw, that's what happened in WoW. WotLK, when gearscore etc came out, was the most casual of metrics. As parsing increased, people's expectations of what you parsed rose. I remember a time when Heroic raiders (back when Heroic was the highest difficulty, before mythic) were fine with blue parses, because blue parses cleared content (something still true with time in WoW if all you're shooting for is Cutting Edge). Now Mythic teams generally want purple parses....and you don't really get a serious look in serious teams unless you're consistently parsing high purple/orange.