1. #53081
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I'm on your side, and I do agree 5% is unacceptable in a dungeon, as that's pretty much afk.

    But I can understand the argument against saying that. Who gets to draw the line? 5% may be universally be seen as unacceptable. What about 25%? What about 33%? What about 50%? Surely some people will be of the attitude that 86% is too low.

    In those cases, some, like SE, think you have to either allow it all, or allow nothing. They're allowing no line-drawing, for fear of creepingly increasing line-drawing. And, fwiw, that's what happened in WoW. WotLK, when gearscore etc came out, was the most casual of metrics. As parsing increased, people's expectations of what you parsed rose. I remember a time when Heroic raiders (back when Heroic was the highest difficulty, before mythic) were fine with blue parses, because blue parses cleared content (something still true with time in WoW if all you're shooting for is Cutting Edge). Now Mythic teams generally want purple parses....and you don't really get a serious look in serious teams unless you're consistently parsing high purple/orange.
    I mean, you can tell when someone is doing 5% without any addon. All people should need to do is some semblance of a rotation, aoe on aoe pulls, st on st pulls.

    I'm sorry to people it upsets, but if you don't do at least that I'm throwing up the vote kick, I used to try to help, but the people who play like this are some of the most toxic people I've ever met half the time.

  2. #53082
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The issue I take with them is that they don't give you any feedback other than a Yes/No outcome on if your DPS is high enough.

    If you get a Yes and your DPS is high enough you don't know if that's a one off fluke or consistent without more information. You don't know if you were right on the bare minimum line or if you're doing double the damage you need to.

    If you get a No, it doesn't tell you what you need to do to get that to being a Yes. It could be anything from a lack of gear, the wrong stats, rotation errors or, the one I see most commonly, not pressing a GCD every time they're available.

    What I'd like to happen is if you fail, you get some in-game guidance on where you went wrong. It doesn't need to be a scientific breakdown that gives you 600 page spreadsheets, just a simple "Oh hey, your DPS is too low because you've not got any Materia at all. Most players of your job use Crit".
    I can't disagree, but do a lot of games do this? It makes me think kind of those dps analysis sites who tell you "you missed x of y positionals, you didn't use z on CD," etc. Handy, tbh. Would be nice to be baked in but I don't see it in a lot of games baseline.
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I'm advocating that instead of having them just be out there, we also put them in there. In an easy to access place where players can find them. With all the tools you'd need to grow as a player and ways to get in contact with other like-minded players. Perhaps even some community curated guides or maybe a way to get in contact with a player of your job who'd be willing to be an actual Mentor.

    Not to mention that there's a lot about doing Group content that you're just expected to know. Burst windows being the obvious example. Nothing in game teaches you it, any everyone else in the group thinks you know already. It gives off the impression that content is harder and more exclusive than perhaps it really should be.

    I don't think this would help the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel players, and it won't help the absolute best of the best. But its for everyone in between and those looking to make the jump into harder content it's got a bit smoother.
    Fair enough. I will stand by the fact that the people who want to improve will find the resources to do so, though. Picking myself as example--I'm not a high end player, but I did heroic raids and keystone master so it's whatever; contrary to my position here, I don't like to personally disappoint people, so any trial or dungeon I go into, I tend to look up the guide first, even if it's mildly spoilery.

    That doesn't make me great or even good, but it's just a personal courtesy because I don't wanna drag people behind too much myself. But this is a choice I myself make, and even though I wouldn't want to do it any other way, as I would be uncomfortable with potentially holding back a group, I still wouldn't advocate for making a minimum requirement for duty finder/roulette. (besides above literally AFK-tier, which is kick and reportable btw, so that was a non-argument to start with) I know that last bit doesn't have much bearing on what you yourself were saying, but it's to tie the broader topic back in, I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I'm on your side, and I do agree 5% is unacceptable in a dungeon, as that's pretty much afk.

    But I can understand the argument against saying that. Who gets to draw the line? 5% may be universally be seen as unacceptable. What about 25%? What about 33%? What about 50%? Surely some people will be of the attitude that 86% is too low.

    In those cases, some, like SE, think you have to either allow it all, or allow nothing. They're allowing no line-drawing, for fear of creepingly increasing line-drawing. And, fwiw, that's what happened in WoW. WotLK, when gearscore etc came out, was the most casual of metrics. As parsing increased, people's expectations of what you parsed rose. I remember a time when Heroic raiders (back when Heroic was the highest difficulty, before mythic) were fine with blue parses, because blue parses cleared content (something still true with time in WoW if all you're shooting for is Cutting Edge). Now Mythic teams generally want purple parses....and you don't really get a serious look in serious teams unless you're consistently parsing high purple/orange.
    As for drawing lines or crossing them, or being offered a finger and taking the whole hand, it just recently happened in XIV itself. Hell, this topic is tangentially related to exactly that.

    The community was told for years "Don't publicly use mods. We can't see what you're using on your computer, but we will ban you if you openly promote them, either by talking about them in ingame chat or by streaming with them." The community decided to entirely ignore those terms and now they got upset that they got banned for streaming with mods, as if this rule is anything new.

  3. #53083
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    I Iove how this whole 10+ page nonsense discussion started by some idiot linking a picture of ACT from a dungeon that has over 50 Ilvl difference between the minimum and the top. And no one bothered to ask what Ilvl anyone was at.
    Fucking thread is dead, had to keep it alive, also the smn was close to the 70-75 lvl range with 3/4 of his gear ilvl 400

  4. #53084
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post
    Yeah, I really feel sorry for you bro. I mean that sincerely. You're on here raging like a 14 year old over differing opinions on a video game. I really, really, realllllly hope you understand how sad this is one day and move on from all of this. I used to be like you, which is why I can read you so damn well. It's incredibly cringeworthy listening to you spout terms you barely understand and speak on topics you have barely any experience on. For what? To be "right"? Seems to me that your life is in a pretty sorry state, so you come here to try to "win" in whatever way you can. Which, again, I get. But jesus bro, what in the holy fuck. I want you to know, unironically, not even trolling you or trying to bait you that my first reaction to seeing this ridiculous wall of text was to cringe.
    lmao, dude, the fact that you made an account just to respond to me and try to call me mad and psycho analyze me, that's hella cringe. Anyway, all you do is ad hom in this first paragraph. Psychoanalyzing someone over an internet forum is the most cringe thing you can do. You don't know anything about me, and the most hilarious part is, you say you "used to be like me" but you very clearly still are.

    Chill out dude, stop getting mad. It's ok. I know my point that people shouldn't be able to AFK and get carried was incredibly contentious for some reason, and made a few people mad, but you don't need to rage out over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post
    Honestly? If you're asking me individually that question I normally go into random dungeon groups as a tank or healer both of which I have full savage BiS. I'm a turbo nerd who uses food + pre pots trash to make sure it dies incredibly quickly. Primarily because I have a job, and a life, and don't want to spend any longer than I have to in a dungeon. But, I NEVER give a flying fuck about the skill level of the other people in the group. Because I acknowledge that people just don't care as much as I do, and that's okay. What you're expressing is the equivalent of being upset that an elderly lady is taking forever to put her food up to be scanned in a grocery store. It's annoying, sure. But how you can sit there and actually try to justify your behavior is beyond me, and most people here I think. You're a dick. Plain and simple. I can see why you need to be right all the time. It's probably the only pleasurable social event that occurs in your life is when you win an argument, isn't it?
    The most hilarious part about all of this is you still have zero reading comprehension. It's never been about caring for the skill level of people in the dungeon. If you can point out in any of my posts where I said I cared about the skill level of randos, you're welcome to correct me. But I know you won't. Because I've never said anything like that. I don't want someone to get a free ride. That's all. That you're making this about something it's not makes it pretty clear that you don't even know what the conversation is even about. Either that or you're trying to make it about something else so you can be "right" about it. That's very sad my dude.

    On top of it all, you made a burner account to respond to me. Like, you're already anonymous on the internet, but to make a burner account just to basely insult and psychoanalyze me? smh. I love how people care so much about their online names that they don't want it associated with their main account when they go to be terrible people online. I'm not afraid to show my post history, unlike you. Yes, I know you'll probably claim this is your first account, but nobody is going to believe that. It's like when someone does something awful then tells the GMs "OH MY LITTLE BROTHER GOT ON MY ACCOUNT AND SAID STUPID SHIT". Everyone knows it's BS.


    See, I used to be like you. I used to tell people that I was once like them, so I knew exactly how they operated and how they think. But for one thing that's just ultra cringe dude. Like, the biggest cringe on the internet. Plus it turns out that most of the time you don't know jack shit about people, you just have this holier-than-thou attitude. That's why I stopped doing it. Time for you to do the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway, to address your terrible post:

    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post
    When it comes to the subject of ad hominem in this particular case I believe it to be pretty appropriate to attack you specifically.
    Thank you for a admitting that this is just one big attack. Hopefully the mods can take care of it.

    "Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no."

    Honestly? If you're asking me individually that question I normally go into random dungeon groups as a tank or healer both of which I have full savage BiS. I'm a turbo nerd who uses food + pre pots trash to make sure it dies incredibly quickly. Primarily because I have a job, and a life, and don't want to spend any longer than I have to in a dungeon. But, I NEVER give a flying fuck about the skill level of the other people in the group. Because I acknowledge that people just don't care as much as I do, and that's okay.
    So far you basically just described me. I often do roulettes with the healer in my savage/ulti static. We two alone can carry the entire dungeon. They're a godly white mage that does more damage than about 80% of DPS we come across. Both of us are very often top damage. And I don't care. See, the sad part about all of this is all of your insults are based on the fact that you're projecting a falsehood on to me. The falsehood that I actually care about the skill level of other players in general. If you can find anywhere that I've said I hate casuals or people who play sub optimally, feel free. It would prove your point. But with lack of evidence for me saying as such, it proves my point and you're wrong, and all of your post is one giant bullshit fest.

    You're a dick.
    Time to look in a mirror my dude. You're not "insulting the mean angry man for the sake of the little guy", you're just a combative dick yourself, and you're just like me.

    The primary difference between the two of us comes down to accepting that people play video games at differing levels. I can accept this.
    I realized this back in Everquest dude. It's not some giant revelation. I realize you think it's a huge deal because you probably recently discovered it, but it's one of the most basic concepts of MMO gaming. But the entire post of your post is to try and paint me as someone who hates those who have the 1-95% skill levels. I'm not a hardcore shitting on casuals. The only post I've ever made is about people who AFK or don't try. If you can find otherwise, feel free. But again, lack of such evidence means you're full of shit.

    You resent people for not being as good as you.
    See, again. This whole "You hate people who are worse than you!" Nope, you're changing my words. I haven't said anything of the sort. I resent people who very clearly want a free ride. I carry people in roulettes all day and night as long as it's clear they're trying.

    This is very narcissistic behavior.
    You know what one of the hallmarks of narcissism is? Thinking you know more about someone than they do. Or thinking you know someone based on a very short interaction. You think way too highly of yourself, and I realize you probably took some PSYCH 101 class and now think you're a great psychologist. Yes, I took psych 101, 102, 103, and 104. I won't say you're some giant manchild nor any other of the attacks you've levied on me, but it's pretty clear you're projecting quite a bit.

    No one should live to others standards. Only their own. It's their life to live, and ultimately their happiness to achieve.
    Stating the obvious once more. Something I learned over 2 decades ago. Again, I realize you think you're "Schooling a child" but you're really not. You know jack shit about me. All of these massive revelations you think you're laying on me are just... *Yawn*

    I understand what you're getting at. Truly I do. I used to have the same sort of mindset in my early 20s.
    Another case of "I was once like you". Funny part is, all of this shit you said you're doing in your 20's, and all of this wisdom you learned later, I learned in my early 20's. It's telling that it took you so much longer to get this wisdom. I traveled a lot for work, meeting different people and cultures all over the world. It was wonderful and enlightening. I suggest world travel to anyone. The unfortunate part is the cost.

    I even had the crazy idea of taking all the super intelligent people, putting them on a rocket, and just nuking the rest of the world and starting the fuck over.
    Wow uh... just wow... can't say I've ever wished violence on a large number of people. In fact I only really wish violence upon Vladimir Putin for what he's brought in suffering to others. But otherwise I do not wish violence on anyone. That... says a lot about you my dude. Even if you no longer think that, the f act that you once thought yourself better than "those stupid people" is a difference between us. I've not wished violence on people for their ability to perform mentally. That's you dude. Yes, I realize you think you were "once like me" but you swung and you missed. Big time. And revealed something concerning about yourself. It seems you see "resent" and "violence" as interchangeable, or you once did. I can resent someone and not wish violence upon them. Never have wished violence on them.



    "My standard is that they not be AFK."

    That's fair.
    Wow. Wow. Holy shit. Someone finally answered the question. That's all I've been trying to ask this entire time. Is if it's bad to expect people to put in more than 0 effort. I applaud you sir. You could have just said the above quote, been the BIGGER MAN and moved on. But instead you decided to type out a humongous post berating me for being a child when you know nothing about me, embarrassing yourself for being some kind of wise person schooling a child. Again, super cringe psychoanalyzing people on the internet who you know nothing about.

    See, if you'd just said the above quote, then been like, "You seem like an angry individual and I pity you" that would have hit 100x harder than a multi paragraph essay on how I'm something I'm not. A little tip for you. Brevity is really great for driving home a point. If I want to explain a concept, it does take a lot of words to often say things. But if I'm just trying to poke at someone, a simple sentence is far better. A little bit of wisdom for you as you continue to gather knowledge in your quest, young one.



    Or you can keep going on and on about "ad hominem" and other various fallacies that use conveniently placed "logic" to justify being an absolute asshat of a human being. It's your call.
    What you're doing is literally personal attacks. Personal attacks are an emotional argument, not a logical one. You accuse me of emotion based arguments and yet... LOL

    If you need help knowing all of the ad homs you made, I'll be glad to point them out. "Asshat" is one of them, but there's a good number in your giant essay on knowing exactly how my mind works after reading a few posts.


    But your entire post is one giant attack on me, because while you jumped into this conversation to try and argue against my point, you found my point was fairly reasonable. So instead of just agreeing and moving on, you wrote an essay to insult me because you were just so mad that you had to.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2022-05-21 at 09:49 PM.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  5. #53085
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    lmao, dude, the fact that you made an account just to respond to me and try to call me mad and psycho analyze me, that's hella cringe. Anyway, all you do is ad hom in this first paragraph. Psychoanalyzing someone over an internet forum is the most cringe thing you can do. You don't know anything about me, and the most hilarious part is, you say you "used to be like me" but you very clearly still are.

    Chill out dude, stop getting mad. It's ok. I know my point that people shouldn't be able to AFK and get carried was incredibly contentious for some reason, and made a few people mad, but you don't need to rage out over it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The most hilarious part about all of this is you still have zero reading comprehension. It's never been about caring for the skill level of people in the dungeon. If you can point out in any of my posts where I said I cared about the skill level of randos, you're welcome to correct me. But I know you won't. Because I've never said anything like that. I don't want someone to get a free ride. That's all. That you're making this about something it's not makes it pretty clear that you don't even know what the conversation is even about. Either that or you're trying to make it about something else so you can be "right" about it. That's very sad my dude.

    On top of it all, you made a burner account to respond to me. Like, you're already anonymous on the internet, but to make a burner account just to basely insult and psychoanalyze me? smh. I love how people care so much about their online names that they don't want it associated with their main account when they go to be terrible people online. I'm not afraid to show my post history, unlike you. Yes, I know you'll probably claim this is your first account, but nobody is going to believe that. It's like when someone does something awful then tells the GMs "OH MY LITTLE BROTHER GOT ON MY ACCOUNT AND SAID STUPID SHIT". Everyone knows it's BS.


    See, I used to be like you. I used to tell people that I was once like them, so I knew exactly how they operated and how they think. But for one thing that's just ultra cringe dude. Like, the biggest cringe on the internet. Plus it turns out that most of the time you don't know jack shit about people, you just have this holier-than-thou attitude. That's why I stopped doing it. Time for you to do the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway, to address your terrible post:



    Thank you for a admitting that this is just one big attack. Hopefully the mods can take care of it.

    "Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no."



    So far you basically just described me. I often do roulettes with the healer in my savage/ulti static. We two alone can carry the entire dungeon. They're a godly white mage that does more damage than about 80% of DPS we come across. Both of us are very often top damage. And I don't care. See, the sad part about all of this is all of your insults are based on the fact that you're projecting a falsehood on to me. The falsehood that I actually care about the skill level of other players in general. If you can find anywhere that I've said I hate casuals or people who play sub optimally, feel free. It would prove your point. But with lack of evidence for me saying as such, it proves my point and you're wrong, and all of your post is one giant bullshit fest.



    Time to look in a mirror my dude. You're not "insulting the mean angry man for the sake of the little guy", you're just a combative dick yourself, and you're just like me.



    I realized this back in Everquest dude. It's not some giant revelation. I realize you think it's a huge deal because you probably recently discovered it, but it's one of the most basic concepts of MMO gaming. But the entire post of your post is to try and paint me as someone who hates those who have the 1-95% skill levels. I'm not a hardcore shitting on casuals. The only post I've ever made is about people who AFK or don't try. If you can find otherwise, feel free. But again, lack of such evidence means you're full of shit.



    See, again. This whole "You hate people who are worse than you!" Nope, you're changing my words. I haven't said anything of the sort. I resent people who very clearly want a free ride. I carry people in roulettes all day and night as long as it's clear they're trying.



    You know what one of the hallmarks of narcissism is? Thinking you know more about someone than they do. Or thinking you know someone based on a very short interaction. You think way too highly of yourself, and I realize you probably took some PSYCH 101 class and now think you're a great psychologist. Yes, I took psych 101, 102, 103, and 104. I won't say you're some giant manchild nor any other of the attacks you've levied on me, but it's pretty clear you're projecting quite a bit.



    Stating the obvious once more. Something I learned over 2 decades ago. Again, I realize you think you're "Schooling a child" but you're really not. You know jack shit about me. All of these massive revelations you think you're laying on me are just... *Yawn*



    Another case of "I was once like you". Funny part is, all of this shit you said you're doing in your 20's, and all of this wisdom you learned later, I learned in my early 20's. It's telling that it took you so much longer to get this wisdom. I traveled a lot for work, meeting different people and cultures all over the world. It was wonderful and enlightening. I suggest world travel to anyone. The unfortunate part is the cost.



    Wow uh... just wow... can't say I've ever wished violence on a large number of people. In fact I only really wish violence upon Vladimir Putin for what he's brought in suffering to others. But otherwise I do not wish violence on anyone. That... says a lot about you my dude. Even if you no longer think that, the f act that you once thought yourself better than "those stupid people" is a difference between us. I've not wished violence on people for their ability to perform mentally. That's you dude. Yes, I realize you think you were "once like me" but you swung and you missed. Big time. And revealed something concerning about yourself. It seems you see "resent" and "violence" as interchangeable, or you once did. I can resent someone and not wish violence upon them. Never have wished violence on them.





    Wow. Wow. Holy shit. Someone finally answered the question. That's all I've been trying to ask this entire time. Is if it's bad to expect people to put in more than 0 effort. I applaud you sir. You could have just said the above quote, been the BIGGER MAN and moved on. But instead you decided to type out a humongous post berating me for being a child when you know nothing about me, embarrassing yourself for being some kind of wise person schooling a child. Again, super cringe psychoanalyzing people on the internet who you know nothing about.

    See, if you'd just said the above quote, then been like, "You seem like an angry individual and I pity you" that would have hit 100x harder than a multi paragraph essay on how I'm something I'm not. A little tip for you. Brevity is really great for driving home a point. If I want to explain a concept, it does take a lot of words to often say things. But if I'm just trying to poke at someone, a simple sentence is far better. A little bit of wisdom for you as you continue to gather knowledge in your quest, young one.





    What you're doing is literally personal attacks. Personal attacks are an emotional argument, not a logical one. You accuse me of emotion based arguments and yet... LOL

    If you need help knowing all of the ad homs you made, I'll be glad to point them out. "Asshat" is one of them, but there's a good number in your giant essay on knowing exactly how my mind works after reading a few posts.


    But your entire post is one giant attack on me, because while you jumped into this conversation to try and argue against my point, you found my point was fairly reasonable. So instead of just agreeing and moving on, you wrote an essay to insult me because you were just so mad that you had to.
    You're embarrassingly predictable and starting to bore me. I can see why you have 30,000 posts. Your degeneracy sure shows here.

    I made an account to put you in your place because you need a kick in the ass. You think you're hot shit, but you're really not. People like you legitimately disgust me. But, trust that I feel far more pity for you than any level of hatred or animosity. I can tell this eats at you, because you are still replying to me like a monkey.

    "Ad hom" Yep, predictable. Hence why I gave you the choice of walking away, or continuing to spew your nonsense and pseudo-intellectual rhetoric. Seems you chose the later. Shame. It terms of it being cringe well, that's a matter of your opinion. I'd view putting an asshole like you in their place as a pretty noble endeavor. I can tell by how many paragraphs of gibberish you keep babbling at me with that it's effecting you in a way I very much wanted from the very beggining. Poor baby!

    "Stop getting mad" Ironic comment coming from the guy who "takes everything I do in life with a level of seriousness" The amount of times you've contradicted yourself here is probably greater than your IQ.

    "It's never been about the skill level of people in the dungeon" There is very little difference between a very bad player, and a legitimately AFK one. In fact one might make the argument that someone that dies repeatedly is simply better to be left dead and not waste healer resources on them. As a healer main I've ignored many a player that stand in dumb shit, or do less than half my dps as a healer in a dungeon. But yeah, don't pretend like you didn't make it painfully clear what you meant by AFK players. You meant bad performers. You don't get to take a step back and redefine what you meant by your performance standards in a dungeon just because I cornered you in an argument. That's not how this works.

    I made a burner account because my main account that I had during the WoTLK days is forever lost. I no longer have access to the email address attached to that account, so I just made a new one because I occasionally (I'm talking maybe once a month) jump into the FFXIV thread here just out of curiosity to see what people are talking about. I saw your dumb ass and decided to smack you back to down reality. Nothing more. Don't make it bigger than it is.

    Once again you've completely ignored all of my comments, and are circling around them because you have nothing to say but "hurrdurr ur cringe xdxd" Get a grip. You're cornered and you know it, and everyone here knows it. You've made a complete ass of yourself, and I hit the nail on the head as to the kind of person you are. You know this, and that's why you keep replying to me. No words will change that reality, and no argument will save you from the ass kicking you already received. And just know, that you have 30,000 posts on an online forum. Thirty fucking thousand. And you're calling someone else cringe? Holy dog shit bro, you're delusional. Look at a fucking mirror. Almost every post you've made on this board is one big individual circle jerk for yourself telling someone else they are wrong, or showcasing your belief system. This is your life, and it's fairly obvious. And it's fucking sad. And you know it's sad. It's so sad that you know it's sad, so you've gotten to the point where you accept it for being sad. You're okay with it, and that's sad. Sad.

    "Hopefully the mods can take care of it" Yeah, I hope so too. You've attacked many a people in this thread needlessly. This is a burner account so of course I don't care about a ban, hell I'll report this reply chain myself just to see you get an infraction.

    "I don't care that my WHM friend does 80% of the damage in 4 mans" Yeah you do. You sure do. Because if you didn't care you wouldn't be making a post about it lmao. Also, speaking as a healer main myself, WHM is supposed to do a lot of damage in 4 mans. Their toolkit is perfect for 4 man content with chain AOE pulls. Holy stuns, Benediction, and Lily Bell etc. I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention this.

    "The only post I've made is about people who AFK and don't try" Thanks for admitting you didn't understand a word of my argument. My argument is simply that you care about whether or not people waste your time or not, versus the idea that you should suck it up like the big bad hardcore MMO gamer you are, and just deal with the cards you're dealt like everyone else. Play the game to the best of your ability and stop worrying about what other people do with their time and energy. To use my comparison again, would you beat up an elderly lady for taking long at a grocery line? I'd like to think you wouldn't (but who knows, you just might be degenerate enough). Stop giving a fuck what other people do, and how they impact you. You impact you. And you alone. If you don't get that, you're not as hardcore as you make yourself out to be.

    "You're just like me" I'm nothing like you. Don't flatter yourself by thinking just because I choose to engage with you, and I make ugly statements about ugly people that I'm somehow an ugly person. Calling Hitler a piece of shit is just factually correct, and nobody would think ill of someone who did so. This is kind of like that. You're a piece of shit. I've said nothing factually incorrect here.

    "I'm not a hardcore shitting on casuals" Says the man-child crying about expert roulette on an MMO forum. Every post you've made on this forum is bitching moaning and complaining about one topic or another. Spare me dude.

    "Thinking you know someone based on a very short interaction" You have had 30,000 posts to change my opinion on you. Albeit I've glanced at maybe 3-4 pages worth of your mindless drivel, but still. People are generally who they show you the first time. To me, and to others here you've shown you're a combative person with NPD who needs to be right and won't stop replying to someone until they stop replying to them to "win" You'll find no such victory here.

    "You know jack shit about me" Is something only a person who knows that other person hit the nail on the head would say. Mad that I got it right, child?

    "Never wished violence upon anyone" Good for you. I grew up in foster care, and was abused as a child. To be frank it's a miracle I'm even a productive member of society. I've made great strides, and become someone who loves to learn and grow as a person rather than hate the world as I did when I was younger. Acknowledging ones faults and seeing their growth is a strength. Surely there are things in your life you used to believe that you are now embarrassed to do so? All this banter aside, there's probably very little difference between the type of growth you experienced and mine. After all, we're still alive in this crazy chaotic joke of a world we live in today, aren't we?

    "Someone finally answered the question" It's been answered at least 2 times prior. You just are too focused on arguing your points and pseudo-logic and it took you this long to realize it. But again, you ignored the rest of my post and are focusing on the very first thing I said, because the very first thing I said gives you the fuel you need to reply "see? I was right!" You be right, if it stops you from committing suicide. All your attention on this forum has done is show you're very close to the edge. There's a phone line for that.

    "Yes, I took psych 101, 102, 103, and 104. I won't say you're some giant manchild nor any other of the attacks you've levied on me, but it's pretty clear you're projecting quite a bit."

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA I FUCKING KNEW IT LOLOLOLOL

    "You found out my point was fairly reasonable" Thanks for acknowledging you neither read nor understood my post. You played yourself. Almost nothing you've said here today is reasonable. Well, except when you walked back your statement about caring about casual players performance. That was reasonable I suppose, even if it did expose you as one of the biggest jokes on this message board.

    CTHULU 2020! RIGGIN YOUR ELECTION SINCE 2008

    Fucking yikes bro. Stay far away from me before I catch whatever mental illness you have.

    I hope you get better.
    Last edited by jesushowinthewhat; 2022-05-22 at 02:22 AM.

  6. #53086
    I, uh.. don't mean to interject.

    But I find it funny that at no point was there any indication that anyone should suffer actual AFKers or deliberate, provable griefers in a dungeon or a trial group anyway.

  7. #53087
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I, uh.. don't mean to interject.

    But I find it funny that at no point was there any indication that anyone should suffer actual AFKers or deliberate, provable griefers in a dungeon or a trial group anyway.
    Yeah, I know that. You kick them. He would sooner belittle them as some sort of self-righteous molding tactic for personal gain. That's the issue of contention here.

  8. #53088
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    how did we go from discussing player competency to talking about literally killing people in real life?

  9. #53089
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I'm on your side, and I do agree 5% is unacceptable in a dungeon, as that's pretty much afk.

    But I can understand the argument against saying that. Who gets to draw the line? 5% may be universally be seen as unacceptable. What about 25%? What about 33%? What about 50%? Surely some people will be of the attitude that 86% is too low.
    I'm not quite sure how it works, but I *did* use it in leveling dungeon roulette once because I was pretty sure the lancer in my group was a some kind of bot or constantly afk and didn't do anything but auto attacks:

    There is a vote kick function.

    I don't know when and how it will block the process (I think whenever you engage a boss or mob it won't allow it), but the line is whereever the group decides to vote-kick him. And it only needs 2 votes in 4man (as the vote-kicked player can't press no/yes), so it's really not that hard to votekick someone if people really care. And if they don't, well... then they don't.
    So if you run with a buddy, you can basically kick everyone you don't like - after 5 minutes. (technically at least)

    The fact that I never see a votekick coming up however means that most players just don't care.

    To bring this back to topic:

    Since you can tell this kind of abysmal play by just looking at the player model or the threat list, there is no need for DPS tools.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-22 at 07:26 AM.

  10. #53090
    Whats with the novel andys ? Touch some grass

  11. #53091
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Should 3 people be beholden to carry one person who wants to simply AFK through a dungeon? Yes or no.
    That does not happen in the actual game on a regular basis and if rarely does happen:
    even SE would see that as a valid reason to remove a player from the group.
    The tools to deal with this scenario are already in the hands of the players.

    No this discussion is NOT about AFK players, this discussion is about people not meeting your arbitrarily set standard. At least be honest about that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I, uh.. don't mean to interject.
    These two definitely need to get a room to duke it out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I mean, you can tell when someone is doing 5% without any addon. All people should need to do is some semblance of a rotation, aoe on aoe pulls, st on st pulls.
    Aye. You can't tell if he's doing 75% or 100% w/o a parser but someone half-AFKing it via shieldlob-spam™ is fairly obvious. :'D

  12. #53092
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I can't disagree, but do a lot of games do this? It makes me think kind of those dps analysis sites who tell you "you missed x of y positionals, you didn't use z on CD," etc. Handy, tbh. Would be nice to be baked in but I don't see it in a lot of games baseline.
    It depends on the Genre. You can visually tell if you missed a platforming jump and by how much and you can correct for it on the next try. The feedback is instantanious and obvious. You can also generally see where you went wrong in Shmups, Rhythem games etc without the need to dig any deeper into it. Shooters and Sports games usually keep track of your overall personal stats as well as your performance in the current game. They're not always user friendly, but you can pick out patterns and see where you need to improve. Most fighters give you a Matrix that scores you on Attack, Defence etc at the end of a match.

    Gameplay hints on loading screens are common across all genres too. They're not always great, but they're something.

    FF14 is too complex to just "eyeball" what you did wrong. It doesn't track your stats or performance metrics in any way that I'm aware of. There's some opaque reasons for you being successful or failing that aren't being communicated to the player. The strange thing is they started off so well with building players an on ramp to group content with Guildhests and Hall of the Novice but they just never continued it.

  13. #53093
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    It depends on the Genre. You can visually tell if you missed a platforming jump and by how much and you can correct for it on the next try. The feedback is instantanious and obvious. You can also generally see where you went wrong in Shmups, Rhythem games etc without the need to dig any deeper into it. Shooters and Sports games usually keep track of your overall personal stats as well as your performance in the current game. They're not always user friendly, but you can pick out patterns and see where you need to improve. Most fighters give you a Matrix that scores you on Attack, Defence etc at the end of a match.

    Gameplay hints on loading screens are common across all genres too. They're not always great, but they're something.

    FF14 is too complex to just "eyeball" what you did wrong. It doesn't track your stats or performance metrics in any way that I'm aware of. There's some opaque reasons for you being successful or failing that aren't being communicated to the player. The strange thing is they started off so well with building players an on ramp to group content with Guildhests and Hall of the Novice but they just never continued it.
    Well, I'm not opposed to it, for what it's worth. Just don't see it much, especially in WoW. So long as it's not too intrusive, I don't see what would be bad about such a thing and I can see how it helps people at least find their feet.

    On a similar note, I wish there was a training mode for ex trials and savage fights where all the killing AoE and melee damage is disabled and what's left are the mechanics which if you resolve them well will let you pass to the next one until you can resolve every mechanic that fight has to throw at you, but that would probably never happen because they would consider it too trivializing and they might think it would kill group progging.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    That does not happen in the actual game on a regular basis and if rarely does happen:
    even SE would see that as a valid reason to remove a player from the group.
    The tools to deal with this scenario are already in the hands of the players.

    No this discussion is NOT about AFK players, this discussion is about people not meeting your arbitrarily set standard. At least be honest about that.
    This. It was never about AFKing players or players that are basically not doing anything or outright griefing. Frankly, nothing needs to change to deal with those because you are already free to kick and even report them according to XIV's ToS.

  14. #53094
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesushowinthewhat View Post
    You're
    On ignore. You acted like you were jumping in to take part in a discussion and then started with the insults. You are HARD projecting. I hope you get some help. You'll have a much better life when you stop believing you know people from a few forum posts. Have a good day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    how did we go from discussing player competency to talking about literally killing people in real life?
    Ask the guy with violent tendencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    That does not happen in the actual game on a regular basis and if rarely does happen:
    even SE would see that as a valid reason to remove a player from the group.
    The tools to deal with this scenario are already in the hands of the players.
    People used to AFK in Prae all the time, literally half the runs we had someone freeloading. The way old Prae used to work is passing mobs from teleporter to teleporter, and it would keep you in combat for MOST of the instance, and thus players thought they could use this to just AFK or do nothing, because being in combat makes it so that you can't kick anyone. Luckily there's two parts where you can kick someone in time before the next cut scene, before Nero (the run from the cermet door to Nero) and after Nero and before Gaius. I'd always kick someone in that part if they were AFK or auto follow. Even got some hate tells from people who were sitting AFK at the entrance threatening to report me. Nothing ever came of it funny enough.


    No this discussion is NOT about AFK players, this discussion is about people not meeting your arbitrarily set standard. At least be honest about that.
    Someone made it about that, and I came in on that part and I kept saying I only don't want people freeloading, then me saying I don't want people freeloading made everything think I was some kind of elitist who hates people who aren't performing at 95%+, or that not wanting AFK players in my dungeons somehow was a huge slippery slope that would lead to mass damage meter toxicity and ruin the game. Completely untenable positions.

    There's no real discussion to be had. I don't think anybody here agrees that you should be able to shame someone for sub optimal damage. But people like @Yarathir needed some kind of enemy for his argument so they projected that belief onto me simply because I don't want freeloaders.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Fun tidbit though, folks could have just answered the question "Is it ok for someone to freeload off 3 people and AFK through the dungeon?" and the discussion would have been over (unless they answered yes) and could have moved on. Instead they jumped into massive irrelevant tangents to avoid answering the question. Still waiting on certain people to even address it. But I won't hold my breath. My guess is they think it's fine to AFK and mooch off others? And know that won't be a pretty look.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  15. #53095
    Bloodsail Admiral Gutler's Avatar
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    Hmmmm i have a strong desire to pre-order these FFXI has a special place in my heart

    Sig by Elyssia "When you do things right people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

  16. #53096
    There simply was never a discussion about actual AFK players so it wasn't a relevant question to begin with lmao.

  17. #53097
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    There simply was never a discussion about actual AFK players so it wasn't a relevant question to begin with lmao.
    Short term memory loss is a bitch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    They're not equivalent because if you get stuck with somebody uncooperative for a project at college or you have to work with another employee that doesn't pull their weight--at best, you'll experience extreme amounts of stress and pressure having to do the work for two people and at worst there could be repercussions for not finishing what you had to finish.

    The repercussions for playing with a bad or uncooperative player in FFXIV are that a dungeon takes 5 more minutes and at the extreme end that you might have to leave and queue up again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    True. No way to clear the very prestigious Castrum Meridianum with people pressing one button. :b
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    In content like that, who honestly gives a crap.
    I've been known to half ass it in there as well because I was busy talking to friends I ran with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    You don't get to decide how others play in randoms, If your bitching (I know its the OP just saying in general) about someone's DPS in a MMO that doesn't allow addons while doing Castrum Meridianum of all place's then yes "You" are being elitist.

    The content got cleared, Move on. If someone wants to go in and cast one ability that's their choice, As long as it isn't causing a problem (and in Duty content it won't) then its whatever. Want to tell people how to play go make your own group.

    There is a reason that every time a thread like this is posted the vast majority are saying stfu about someone's dps. Figure it out and take the hint.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    The problem here with people in this mentality is you look like a drooling hypocrite if you apply the same methodology to real life scenarios. It's not even about the DPS, just use some critical thinking to analyze the actual underlying issue:

    • Sure the college project gets done if 2 people carry everyone through, but DONT YOU DARE criticize them for just showing up.
    • Everyone really enjoys the soccer game when Joey D sits there kicking the ball into his own team's goal, because he's RPing playing for the other team deliberately making it harder to win, not impossible, but harder.
    • Yes I don't mind my colleague getting the same promotion as me because his name is attached to the same report I worked on, despite the fact that he didn't actually contribute in any meaningful way.

    The thing about these situations is the difficulty is irrelevant. It's about respect for your fellow players. No one here is saying lol bad dps; we're saying homie you're AFK. If you can't be bothered to do the bare minimum effort; press some buttons with a degree of frequency then you shouldn't be queueing anything that involves other people.

    At the end of the day, if everyone played like that SMN you probably wouldn't clear the content, yes even CM, and that's why it's not fair. Bottom line.


    Oops?

    You didn't want to take part in the discussion most of the time, and kept trying to change the subject, but it was there. Unless 5 of your posts just didn't happen and I'm a crazy person who's imagining what I see on my screen.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2022-05-23 at 03:06 AM.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  18. #53098
    No, you simply inserted something totally unrelated while pretending you had anything relevant to add. Don't worry--it happens.

  19. #53099
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    No, you simply inserted something totally unrelated while pretending you had anything relevant to add. Don't worry--it happens.
    There's a conversation in those posts about people who just lazy their way through instances, including AFKing or pressing one button. It's ok, it seems you don't read whole posts anyway. You just scan and then think "hah, this guy's not worth it" and reply. Don't worry, it's common. Occasionally someone will respond to my posts without actually reading them and think they have some kind of clever retort when in reality the content of my post annihilated them and it just makes them look silly.

    But anyway, I've answered the question.

    I think ACT is fine, as long as it's not used to openly shame other people. To an extent I think many other addons are perfectly fine. I don't mind if someone is doing 50% of optimal damage in a roulette. I don't mind if they do 25%, as long as it's obvious that they're trying - and especially if they're new. It's just super duper ultra obvious even without damage meters when people are being lazy. They sit in one place watching us kill trash packs. They die to bosses and don't accept reses and so forth. You think having dead weight who want a free ride in your groups is acceptable. I don't.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  20. #53100
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    No, you simply inserted something totally unrelated while pretending you had anything relevant to add. Don't worry--it happens.
    Weird how they moved those goalposts real fast, isn't it?

    Went from a discussion about subpar DPS to people raving about the guy that's AFK all dungeon and insulted your mom and kicked your dog. All so they can argue their side easier.

    Almost like the original question about someone doing low DPS wasn't really all that serious to begin with.

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