1. #53241
    The thing about the, "You just hate it to hate it" thing is that it seems to be repeated so much as an (apparent) knee-jerk reaction to criticism that everyone just starts taking it as the truth.

    I've seen very little of what I would take as "hating it to hate it" in this forum - Mostly from that Mario(?) poster - everyone else seems legitimately interested in the game, whether it be because of story, gameplay, or something else. Trying to shout down criticism at every turn really isn't productive or helpful to anyone.

  2. #53242
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    One thing about FFXIV that grinds my gears is having to go completely out of game to even know there's new patch content out. Like, I'm never in Old Sharlayan or Radz-at-Hahn, so how would I know there's a new tribal faction dailies, or new custom deliveries, or a new Hildebrand side quest? I have so many side quests unfinished that new ones popping up make no impression on me.
    An annoying example of this: There's apparently new MSQ quests in this patch, but for the love of god I can't figure out how to unlock them. There's no indication from the main MSQ tracker how to do so, and no breadcrumb indicating otherwise.

    But the patch notes say once "XXX quest is completed" you should be able to start them. So I try and look up this quest. But there's no good databases, and even Garland Tools only has "A Dream in Flight" listed as an orchestrion roll. I guess that's what I have to unlock? It's awarded from a quest for finishing the Omega raid series. How would I know this in-game? I started playing in December, I haven't done most of the old raid series from previous expansions.

    Just super frustrating to lock things behind content from previous expansions on the assumption you've already done it, without indicating for those of us who haven't what needs to be done.

  3. #53243
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I don't know that I agree with the hate to hate it notion. Sure SOME people just want to see the world burn; but I've been accused here countless times of "hating" FF14. I don't hate it. I'm overly critical of it because I care about it. Generally when someone makes an inflammatory post with a less popular opinion instead of getting enraged like some posters here, I simply ask questions. Sometimes you get a good dialogue; sometimes you don't, sometimes other posters won't even let you because they're so enraged.
    It's not so much about agreeing with the notion more like having to admit that it does exist. Whether it be for something as small and silly as a bad romance novel about Sparkly Vampires or something as big as political discussions, there are going to be people who will aggressively and loudly shout out to anyone in ear shot about how bad X is and how you shouldn't go anywhere near it.

    As far as being overly critical, I pose this then if you don't mind: Does the parts your over critical about ruin the whole? Does the blemish of, say, the moon not really being all that impactful despite how much build up we've had to it ruin Endwalker for you? It's the difference between 'I didn't like X or Y brought down my overall enjoyment' VS 'Oh yeah, this expansion sucks overall' and then using that previous X/Y as an example of why it sucks. It's like that Venat discussion that made me join the forums here in the first place, the points that people were putting forward were not only willfully ignoring what was presented in the game itself, but made you question what they're even doing in the 14 side of things in the first place if they're getting so much about everything so incredibly wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    The thing about the, "You just hate it to hate it" thing is that it seems to be repeated so much as an (apparent) knee-jerk reaction to criticism that everyone just starts taking it as the truth.

    I've seen very little of what I would take as "hating it to hate it" in this forum - Mostly from that Mario(?) poster - everyone else seems legitimately interested in the game, whether it be because of story, gameplay, or something else. Trying to shout down criticism at every turn really isn't productive or helpful to anyone.
    I would honestly look over some of Val's posts again in this case, because there's a lot, and I do mean a LOT of negativity that comes from them bout 14. Can the 'hate it to hate it' response be seem as a reaction to criticism? Of course, but just because it can be used for that doesn't make it any less true for some people. I point to my response above about sparkly vampires as a good case in point there.

  4. #53244
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    An annoying example of this: There's apparently new MSQ quests in this patch, but for the love of god I can't figure out how to unlock them. There's no indication from the main MSQ tracker how to do so, and no breadcrumb indicating otherwise.

    But the patch notes say once "XXX quest is completed" you should be able to start them. So I try and look up this quest. But there's no good databases, and even Garland Tools only has "A Dream in Flight" listed as an orchestrion roll. I guess that's what I have to unlock? It's awarded from a quest for finishing the Omega raid series. How would I know this in-game? I started playing in December, I haven't done most of the old raid series from previous expansions.

    Just super frustrating to lock things behind content from previous expansions on the assumption you've already done it, without indicating for those of us who haven't what needs to be done.
    I don't think there are any new MSQ quests.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #53245
    Scarab Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    An annoying example of this: There's apparently new MSQ quests in this patch, but for the love of god I can't figure out how to unlock them. There's no indication from the main MSQ tracker how to do so, and no breadcrumb indicating otherwise.

    But the patch notes say once "XXX quest is completed" you should be able to start them. So I try and look up this quest. But there's no good databases, and even Garland Tools only has "A Dream in Flight" listed as an orchestrion roll. I guess that's what I have to unlock? It's awarded from a quest for finishing the Omega raid series. How would I know this in-game? I started playing in December, I haven't done most of the old raid series from previous expansions.

    Just super frustrating to lock things behind content from previous expansions on the assumption you've already done it, without indicating for those of us who haven't what needs to be done.
    There aren't any MSQ in minor patches, beyond .55/.56 when they stagger the .5 msq because we have something like a 6mo gap between the final major patch and next expac. All content released in minor patches is side content. So if the MSQ tracker has nothing, it means you're done with msq for until the next major patch. The patch notes for EN for the omega side story are unfortunately translated from the JP name of the final quest of the Omega Raid series. It should be "To Kweh Under Distant Skies", which is what it is in english. For content the omega side story it makes sense that it requires the raid series done because its a continuation/follow up to it. There's no reason for you to do it if you haven't done that side series.

  6. #53246
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    It's like that Venat discussion that made me join the forums here in the first place, the points that people were putting forward were not only willfully ignoring what was presented in the game itself, but made you question what they're even doing in the 14 side of things in the first place if they're getting so much about everything so incredibly wrong.
    This goes both ways. There's a few posters on the official lore forum, one of whom fancies himself a lore expert and even makes videos, who seriously have a processing issue between what the game presents and what makes it into their brains. He frequently accuses others of manufacturing "fan fiction" while being the biggest proponent of it himself. Conveniently ignores well thought out responses citing sources that disassemble his headcanon, but will continue to push his interpretation as fact with an overwhelming sense of smugness that most people find off-putting. He's become rather a running joke in some circles. Not the only one, of course, but it's just amusing to me how many people know without having to explicitly tell them.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

  7. #53247
    Psst, if we really want to start a big party, we could start arguing over what Hythlodaeus' shade truly meant when he mentioned that the Convocation's and the ancients' consensus as a whole was to help the star until it was on the point of bursting with vitality so that they could sacrifice a portion of its life energy to Zodiark to bring back the comrades (75% of their original population) they lost in the initial two sacrifices. And why that was, at least at the time of Shadowbringers, the impetus for Venat and her group to interfere and summon Hydaelyn.

  8. #53248
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Psst, if we really want to start a big party, we could start arguing over what Hythlodaeus' shade truly meant when he mentioned that the Convocation's and the ancients' consensus as a whole was to help the star until it was on the point of bursting with vitality so that they could sacrifice a portion of its life energy to Zodiark to bring back the comrades (75% of their original population) they lost in the initial two sacrifices. And why that was, at least at the time of Shadowbringers, the impetus for Venat and her group to interfere and summon Hydaelyn.
    Why are you doing thiiiiiiiiiissssss?!

  9. #53249
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I mean, the pacing thing isn't bs. It's really good up through the initial "invasion" but then it somehow goes too fast and still makes you feel like there's no rush.

    There's also a ton of filler quests that throw off the overall pacing imo. It's like they wanted it to be longer but instead of making the second half more exciting and playing with the "invasion" more, they filled it with time wasting quests.
    I don't get what was "filler" about the invasion here. You got to fight hoards of monsters once you got back to Garlemald. And then once you head back to Thavnair, there's even more there. I don't know what you would have considered "worthwhile", but saving refugees from their former comrades turned into monsters, and chasing after endangered civilians and saving them, that pretty well shows the impact of what's going on when you get through all of the events. None of it was "wasted", it conveys how the apocalypse is affecting various people. "Go kill 12 boars for their asses" with no real compelling reason why you should do that is filler. Saving people as the WoL I'd argue is not.

    But then again, I tend to get the feeling people throw "pacing" "Filler" "plot threads" around haphazardly as they do, making it clear they don't truly know what those things mean in the context of a story, in an attempt to describe why they don't like something.

    What people need to realize is that when you start using literary terms to describe a work, you are trying to describe something on an objective basis. And when your literary critique actually hits the ears of a literary critic, it sounds really... desperate? It's ok to not like something. I just wish people would stop trying to assign objective basis into their opinions.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  10. #53250
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I don't get what was "filler" about the invasion here. You got to fight hoards of monsters once you got back to Garlemald. And then once you head back to Thavnair, there's even more there. I don't know what you would have considered "worthwhile", but saving refugees from their former comrades turned into monsters, and chasing after endangered civilians and saving them, that pretty well shows the impact of what's going on when you get through all of the events. None of it was "wasted", it conveys how the apocalypse is affecting various people. "Go kill 12 boars for their asses" with no real compelling reason why you should do that is filler. Saving people as the WoL I'd argue is not.

    But then again, I tend to get the feeling people throw "pacing" "Filler" "plot threads" around haphazardly as they do, making it clear they don't truly know what those things mean in the context of a story, in an attempt to describe why they don't like something.

    What people need to realize is that when you start using literary terms to describe a work, you are trying to describe something on an objective basis. And when your literary critique actually hits the ears of a literary critic, it sounds really... desperate? It's ok to not like something. I just wish people would stop trying to assign objective basis into their opinions.
    And here we go with the, "If you criticize any of it, you're dumb and just don't get it."

    Seriously, how do you write three paragraphs railing at someone for not liking something as subjective as pacing? This is why no one can talk about anything in here.

  11. #53251
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I don't get what was "filler" about the invasion here. You got to fight hoards of monsters once you got back to Garlemald. And then once you head back to Thavnair, there's even more there. I don't know what you would have considered "worthwhile", but saving refugees from their former comrades turned into monsters, and chasing after endangered civilians and saving them, that pretty well shows the impact of what's going on when you get through all of the events. None of it was "wasted", it conveys how the apocalypse is affecting various people. "Go kill 12 boars for their asses" with no real compelling reason why you should do that is filler. Saving people as the WoL I'd argue is not.

    But then again, I tend to get the feeling people throw "pacing" "Filler" "plot threads" around haphazardly as they do, making it clear they don't truly know what those things mean in the context of a story, in an attempt to describe why they don't like something.

    What people need to realize is that when you start using literary terms to describe a work, you are trying to describe something on an objective basis. And when your literary critique actually hits the ears of a literary critic, it sounds really... desperate? It's ok to not like something. I just wish people would stop trying to assign objective basis into their opinions.
    To be fair, if you are just following the MSQ and not doing the Role quests at all, going straight through the story without stopping, the 'Final Days' does kinda feel like it doesn't have that much of an impact on anywhere else. Thavnair and Garlamald are the only places we see the Darkened skies and Blasphamies running about, and while those two do show just how horrible it could be, we don't really get to see this effect anywhere else within the game. I don't agree with the idea of the invasion being 'filler' but I can understand how someone might get that with the actual impact being limited to a very small section of the story and having an entire zone (Elpis) being completely unrelated to that in terms of seeing how it's effecting the world.

    As far as pacing is concerned, that's a much more subjective thing for some folks. I can see why some people might not like how Endwalker puts the breaks on some moments in it's story, giving us moments to breath and kinda absorb everything. The Loporits entire point was just that, since you had the double wammy of both Garlamald's story AND Zodiark so the developers were wanting to give you a lighthearted, sillier moment to balance out the horrific. But I do know there's some friends of mine who were like 'We shouldn't be effing around with these dumb rabbits, we've got an apocalypse to stop!'. I think in that case it was more of a matter of urgency that was felt by some players that some parts of the story gives us that other parts ignore for the sake of giving the players breathing room. I think, maybe, if the Metion/Premonition on the Moon bit happened after the Loporits, it may have flown better for some people, but in my opinion that's a pretty narrow complaint, imo. Honestly, nothing in Endwalker ever felt like the whole Trolly bit in Shadowbringers, which WAS very MMO 'go here and kill X' quests for a bit that hurt that zone for me.

    In the end, everyone is going to have their own bias. The point of any review, or feedback for something like a story is that you should try to remove that bias as much as possible, giving your thoughts on something without letting your emotions over ride that. Not an easy thing to do and something that most people can't even conceptualize. It's even harder for something like 14 which has made more than it's fair share of players cry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    And here we go with the, "If you criticize any of it, you're dumb and just don't get it."

    Seriously, how do you write three paragraphs railing at someone for not liking something as subjective as pacing? This is why no one can talk about anything in here.
    While I do feel Cthulhu here did kinda miss the point, since pacing can be different for people, I think pacing is also probably one of the weaker points to actually stand on when it comes to calling something out. Can you say something is slower to start as a negative? Sure, but that doesn't really detract from it if the rest of the story is good. And that's kinda what he's trying to say, I think: He dislikes people using their own dislikes of something as a fact. If three people out of one hundred readers found a story slow, that might speak more to their own personal issues with the story than the rest of those hundred who praise it as a well placed read.

    Endwalker, while not without it's faults, is regarded almost universally well by it's playerbase and most people who aren't even into 14 like a lot of folks, myself included, have praised its story. Does the one lone voice going 'Hey, this is bad' mean they're automatically wrong? Not at all. But there has to be some real reasons with solid examples, thought, and explanation behind them for some to be even willing to listen to that voice. And even then, you're going to likely get into an 'agree to disagree' situation.

  12. #53252
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Why are you doing thiiiiiiiiiissssss?!
    I'm a sadomasochist, but apparently no one went in on it.

  13. #53253
    Well, in the end I did not purchased the expansion with the discount, so I will stay calm and wait for when I am able to afford a new computer, so I can enjoy it on my own pace and with the deserved graphic settings on maximum.

    Had a great time reading about all your opinions, I am glad that I posted my question here, got some nice feedback and helped me to stay on the course I was before and don't rush into the despair to just play it all by now when in fact I should be focusing on more important and professional matters, so it's a win.

  14. #53254
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkShinobi View Post
    Well, in the end I did not purchased the expansion with the discount, so I will stay calm and wait for when I am able to afford a new computer, so I can enjoy it on my own pace and with the deserved graphic settings on maximum.

    Had a great time reading about all your opinions, I am glad that I posted my question here, got some nice feedback and helped me to stay on the course I was before and don't rush into the despair to just play it all by now when in fact I should be focusing on more important and professional matters, so it's a win.
    It'll be waiting for you when you get back, and with even more content to boot!

    Good luck out there!

  15. #53255
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    This goes both ways. There's a few posters on the official lore forum, one of whom fancies himself a lore expert and even makes videos, who seriously have a processing issue between what the game presents and what makes it into their brains. He frequently accuses others of manufacturing "fan fiction" while being the biggest proponent of it himself. Conveniently ignores well thought out responses citing sources that disassemble his headcanon, but will continue to push his interpretation as fact with an overwhelming sense of smugness that most people find off-putting. He's become rather a running joke in some circles. Not the only one, of course, but it's just amusing to me how many people know without having to explicitly tell them.
    Hah. I have to admit I did a double take and pondered which poster you were talking about. I've had the displeasure of seeing some of the bile that they spew on sites other than the official forum and they make it very clear that they try to equate liking the antagonists to being a terrible person. Of course, these same individuals will swear up and down that they're the most empathy driven individuals around!

    Such individuals have a habit of sucking out much of the fun and depth that is present in fantasy settings and they're usually arrogant enough to ignore the concept of 'cultural differences', 'personal tastes' and 'individual opinions'.

  16. #53256
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    It's not so much about agreeing with the notion more like having to admit that it does exist. Whether it be for something as small and silly as a bad romance novel about Sparkly Vampires or something as big as political discussions, there are going to be people who will aggressively and loudly shout out to anyone in ear shot about how bad X is and how you shouldn't go anywhere near it.
    Yep, I've already acknowledged that above. I just don't think it's relevant or important to talk about tbh. Do you disagree?

    As far as being overly critical, I pose this then if you don't mind: Does the parts your over critical about ruin the whole? Does the blemish of, say, the moon not really being all that impactful despite how much build up we've had to it ruin Endwalker for you? It's the difference between 'I didn't like X or Y brought down my overall enjoyment' VS 'Oh yeah, this expansion sucks overall' and then using that previous X/Y as an example of why it sucks.
    Part of the challenge of this line of discussion is that "ruin" is very hard to define for me personally. Is it complete and utter disdain? Is it something that makes me stop altogether and have no interest? Is it something that annoys me to no end, but could be overlooked if there are other positives?

    • For example, I HATED the entire Lopporrit arc, but I don't think it "ruined" the whole expansion.
    • I can't stand the netcode in this game and makes it play like shit if we're being honest, but even through all that I'm not sure I can say it "ruins" the game.
    • I argue that the combat engine is stale and shallow, but does it ruin the game? I'm not sure.

    I would honestly look over some of Val's posts again in this case, because there's a lot, and I do mean a LOT of negativity that comes from them bout 14. Can the 'hate it to hate it' response be seem as a reaction to criticism? Of course, but just because it can be used for that doesn't make it any less true for some people.
    I'll be honest I only glance over most of the posts these day's so if you have something you'd like me to look at more specifically of his let me know; but if anything I don't think Val's ever been negative for the sake of negative, if anything they're usually guilty of over-explaining.

  17. #53257
    Man, tried LoV and couldnt even make it pass the tutorial, holy crap there's so much info and the UI is trash e.e

  18. #53258
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Hah. I have to admit I did a double take and pondered which poster you were talking about. I've had the displeasure of seeing some of the bile that they spew on sites other than the official forum and they make it very clear that they try to equate liking the antagonists to being a terrible person. Of course, these same individuals will swear up and down that they're the most empathy driven individuals around!

    Such individuals have a habit of sucking out much of the fun and depth that is present in fantasy settings and they're usually arrogant enough to ignore the concept of 'cultural differences', 'personal tastes' and 'individual opinions'.
    Heh. You like Emet-Selch? Pfft.

    You must eat babies.

  19. #53259
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    And here we go with the, "If you criticize any of it, you're dumb and just don't get it."

    Seriously, how do you write three paragraphs railing at someone for not liking something as subjective as pacing? This is why no one can talk about anything in here.
    And here we go with the "Ghost of Cow didn't read the post again".

    Maybe I can spell it out to you in terms you'll understand, since it's so difficult for you to read.

    People use literary terms to describe the story, literary terms that have objective implications. Their posts are entirely opinion driven, so trying to attempt to shove in objective literary terms that they don't even know the meaning of. It's a lot better to use more personal terms.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  20. #53260
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyre View Post
    Man, tried LoV and couldnt even make it pass the tutorial, holy crap there's so much info and the UI is trash e.e
    If you've done the kojin beast tribe quests in Stormblood, you can just spam kojin pets and win most of your matches against the AI. Takes less than 10 mins to do all the log quests for the week.

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